Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 12 Jan 2003 to 13 Jan 2003 (#2003-13) Date: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 33 messages totalling 1918 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Trombone value (3) 2. FS: 1960's King 3-B Silversonic w/ F Attachment 3. Mouth Cavity Size (12) 4. OTJ Classifieds Update - 1/13/2003 5. Mouth Cavity size (2) 6. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Trombone value 7. Test 8. Bankelsangerlieder? (3) 9. Oral cavity study 10. [Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size] (2) 11. Asssistantship/Scholarship 12. Audition announcement:Disney College Band (2) 13. New Age rhymes with sewage 14. ITA Press 15. Bill Russo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:56:45 -0500 From: Bill Redgate Subject: Trombone value Dear List: An acquaintance recently had his trombone stolen. For insurance purposes, he needs a value but has no idea. So, I come to the font of all knowledge trombone. I would appreciate any help you could provide. The horn was a King Liberty purchased new in approximately 1965. It was in mint condition. It was lacquer, not silver. It had the original case which was also in mint condition. The condition has been independently verified by a friend of mine who recently saw the horn. So, does anybody have any idea what the fair market value would be? He needs to make an insurance claim and would at least like to get close. Thanks in advance for all the help that I know you will provide. This list is the greatest resource. Bill Redgate Atlanta, Georgia P.S. The Bach 42 BGO deal that I asked about last week fell through. Thanks for all the info though. I really do appreciate the help. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:03:21 -0800 From: Jim O'Briant Subject: FS: 1960's King 3-B Silversonic w/ F Attachment The time has come to sell off some instruments that I'm no longer using. I mostly play tuba, and when I play trombone now I almost always use my Williams-Wallace F-Attachment Trombone from the '30's. So, my other "best" trombone is now for sale. If it doesn't sell here on Trombone-L, I'll list it on eBay at a slightly higher price to allow for eBay fees. But I want list subscribers to have first crack at it. King 3-B Trombone "Silversonic" Model (solid sterling silver bell with gold wash inside the bell) With F Attachment Serial Number 449xxx According to the Serial Number Lists at www.musictrader.com, this would place the date of manufacture between 1965 and 1969 Condition: Near-new condition (almost "mint") There's a little bit of lacquer wear at one end of the slide handgrip There's also a little bit of lacquer wear between the rotary valve and the tuning slide -- where the tubing rests against your neck I can find no dents or dings Slide is near-perfect, no visible wear on inner or outer slides Mouthpiece: Not included. Takes a standard-shank mouthpiece Accessories: The marching lyre, if there ever was one, is missing. (I don't remember whether there was or not, but there's a place for it in the case.) The original cleaning rod is included. Case: The standard late-60's King "Coffin" Case Exterior: Black with Black Leather Trim. The main carrying handle has been replaced. The other handle (on one end of the case) is splitting and will need to be replaced. Cosmetically, the exterior shows its age, with a number of bumps, scrapes, etc. Structurally, it's as sound as when it was new. Interior: Lined with green velvet, showing little or no wear. One of the two plastic straps with which you snap the slide into its storage location has broken. Most of the strap is intact, and it snaps just fine -- but it broke off just beyond the snap, so it's a little bit difficult to un-snap the strap when taking the instrument out of the case. History of this trombone: It's a one-owner horn. The trombone was ordered from King (back when King still King, and hadn't been bought out by anyone) by Stan Stone Music of Rock Island, IL, some time between about 1967 and 1970. It sat on their shelves until 1976, when the store closed. It was then purchased by Northwest Music Shop of Davenport, IA, along with much of the rest of the Stan Stone inventory and fixtures. I bought it from Northwest Music Shop in January of 1977, and I've had it ever since. I'm primarily a Tuba player, so the instrument has spent most of its life in its case. I've played it from time to time in community bands, community orchestras, and very seldom otherwise. Due to the difficulties and costs of international shipping, this instrument is for sale only to buyers in the USA. Price: Best offer over $1,700.00 received via e-mail to [ jobriant@garlic.com ] by 12:00 Noon Pacific Time, Sunday, January 19, 2003. Price does not include shipping or insurance. Payment: Payment accepted in US dollars, via PayPal, Certified Check, US Postal Money Orders (it will take more than one due to their maximum dollar amount of $700). No money orders other than US Postal Money Orders will be accepted. PayPal payments subject to a $50 surcharge due to PayPal fees. Packing: I will pay the cost of packing. I've bought and sold enough instruments to know how to pack them, with styrofoam and/or bubble wrap both inside and outside the case, to prevent dents and other damage. I'll pack it as if I were the buyer. Shipping: I can ship the instrument via FedEx or UPS, air or ground service. Buyer chooses shipping method and pays actual cost of shipping from ZIP code 95138 (San Jose, CA). Insurance is optional but recommended. I will ship the instrument within two business days of receipt of payment. Thank you in advance for your interest and your offers. Please give my trombone a good home! -- Jim O'Briant Bayside Music Press Gilroy, CA www.baysidemusicpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:33:06 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size "In fact, I learned about changing my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places." Interesting, also being a flutist my flute tone is usually much more open and round after a good hour of trombone playing. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Gamble [mailto:sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG] Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 2:18 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size Hello Jeff and Keith, I'm afraid you guys are incorrect about the oral cavity not having a significant effect on tone. Much of your tone is determined by how you shape the inside of your mouth. This is true for all wind instruments, at least the ones that I have played. In fact, I learned about changing my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Keith Marr Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 4:15 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size Mouth cavity will have an effect on vocal tone and pitch, but not on trombone playing. Correct me if I'm wrong (after all this time on Trombone-L why do I think I need to ask that!) but in singing the mouth cavity is the resonating chamber for the vibrations produced by the vocal chords, whereas in brass playing it's the instrument that fulfils that function for the vibrations produced by the embouchure. So yes the mouth cavity and, as I believe I read somewhere once, specifically the shape and height of the roof of the mouth determine whether you are a bass or a tenor, or in my case somewhere in-between. However the mouth cavity will have no bearing on tone or tuning on the trombone. Let's not get mouth cavity confused with issues concerning dentition, which may affect the embouchure. Was intended to be my 2p's worth, but ended up costing me nearer 5p! ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:28:34 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 1/13/2003 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 7:28 AM CST on January 13, 2003. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris Waage ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 08:20:48 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity size Let me weigh in on this one, though I don't have much to add beyond "me too." I think the lips and only the lips vibrate. Further, the vibration of the lips is only important in that it the lips are the valve that allows pressure impulses to enter the trombone. So I reject any argument that appeals to multiphonics, didges, etc. One of the list members uses an oboe reed in his mouth for special effects - same objection, doesn't pertain to normal sound production. I tend to see the trombone as a signal processing system, in which a complex waveform gets passed from element to element, and you simply write a transfer function at each point, and sum them to get an overall function. That's the way I treat control problems at work and it is familiar and comfortable. However, it isn't the complete way of looking at it in this case. (well it is but you can't oversimplify) In a high pressure or high flow scenario I think we could confidently discard the mouth cavity as irrelevant. However, the trombone is an extremely low pressure environment, barely detectably above atmospheric, and despite our exhortations to "move more air" we really don't move much. In fact, the acoustics texts claim that air actually moves backwards into the mouth during part of the lip "opening and closing" cycle. Remember as well that though the lip opening cycle appears to be sinusoidal, the pressure impulses are clearly not. Most of that variation from sinusoidal comes from the impedance of the horn/mouthpiece combination, obviously, but some may come from the oral cavity as well. I think you can make a good argument that the oral cavity has a significant though probably small contribution to the tone produced. We used to have a listmember named, IIRC, Hanspeter Schmid? who discussed mathematical modelling of the trombone and said he had to include the oral cavity to have his math (student's math maybe) approximate reality better. I see four subsystems affecting the sound produced: pre-lips, lips, trombone, room. Of course the room "mostly" filters the sound that enters - but probably has a tiny bit of influence on the systems that precede it. and the pre-lips "mostly" deliver air, but also affects the operation of the rest of the system. How much in percentage terms? After our last percentage debate I'm not even gonna go there. I would say more than the room does, and greatly less than lips or trombone do. If it is the case the size and shape of oral cavity affects the tone produced, then we cannot dismiss the idea that we are inherently limited from birth in the range of timbre we will be able to produce. I think that range is pretty broad but the physical shape of the mouth probably puts the ultimate limits on it and probably does a lot to determine our own unique voices. However the size of the oral cavity would suggest a fairly high pitched instrument relative to the trombone, so the filtering done would seem to apply to upper frequencies, right? And the range of variation can't be that large from person to person, nor the adjustments possible within one person. A couple of thoughts: we "know" we have to keep an open relaxed throat. Why? Air flow? Nah, not likely. Tension pulling on the lips? Yeah, possible; but it doesn't feel like it. Secondly: syllables. tee, tah, toe, taw. Air flow? probably, with tongue position in the high range, but maybe not completely. A long time ago I used to repeat part of my routine with various vowels. I could never detect much difference but some people say they use that very effectively. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:44:44 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Trombone value For insurance purposes I would go with the cost of a new one for a couple of reasons. It is easily verifiable, so you won't get any argument from the insurer. And, oddly enough, even though a mint '65 3B is more desirable by many people than a new one, new ones still cost more. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Redgate > Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 11:57 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Trombone value > > Dear List: > > An acquaintance recently had his trombone stolen. For insurance > purposes, > he needs a value but has no idea. So, I come to the font of all knowledge > trombone. I would appreciate any help you could provide. > > The horn was a King Liberty purchased new in approximately 1965. > It was in > mint condition. It was lacquer, not silver. It had the original case > which > was also in mint condition. The condition has been independently verified > by a friend of mine who recently saw the horn. > > So, does anybody have any idea what the fair market value would > be? He > needs to make an insurance claim and would at least like to get close. > > Thanks in advance for all the help that I know you will provide. > This list > is the greatest resource. > > Bill Redgate > Atlanta, Georgia > > P.S. The Bach 42 BGO deal that I asked about last week fell through. > Thanks > for all the info though. I really do appreciate the help. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:18:48 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Jeff, Keith, et al, Just one more bit re: the oral cavity resonance thing. I wish I new the science, but I don't. Maybe some enterprising lister could scour the internet for every scrap of info on the topic. Sounds like a nice summer activity. My convictions on the subject are based on personal experience for what that's worth. 1)I am certain that I can change the shape of the inside of my mouth without effecting the shape of my embouchure at all. 2) I have never been able to significantly effect tone color changes in a satisfactory way by manipulating the embouchure only. These two facts tell me that manipulating the shape and size of the oral cavity contributes significantly to control of tone color. Why that is exactly, I couldn't say. Not very scientific, but it still has this indisputable feel to it. (PS. I have cleverly waited until Jeff and Keith have bowed out of the thread before posting this note, knowing that my unscientific opinion is not worthy of rebuttal.) Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Keith Marr Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 12:45 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size So how is the oral cavity going to affect tone if it is prior to the vibration source? This is a total red herring. How you consciously shape the inside of the mouth will affect the shape of the embouchure - that's what's happening when the tone changes. This thread was suggesting the size and shape of the mouth cavity affected tone and tuning, and my response was to point out that this was only the case inasmuch as it affects the shape of embouchure. So my response to this is the same as it was to the issue of dentition. The mouth cavity is not a resonating chamber in playing an instrument and so can have no affect on tone. Just to recap, the lungs produce the fuel which is pumped into the fuel pipe by the diaphragm pressure, it is then sparked into vibration by the lips, with the instrument being the engine. Obviously in singing the vocal chords set up the vibration and in this case the mouth becomes the engine, the resonating chamber. Hence the size of shape of the mouth will affect tone and pitch in singing. I dare say this will meet with a hail of disagreement so may I gracefully withdraw now with this as my last contribution. I gotta practice! ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:42:42 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Trombone value Mint condition? W/a mint condition case? Say $1000. Nice even number... Recent 2Bs in varying degrees of shape have sold on ebay from $600 to $1100. Now REPLACEMENT value...that's a whole 'nother thing... S. >Dear List: > > An acquaintance recently had his trombone stolen. For >insurance purposes, >he needs a value but has no idea. So, I come to the font of all knowledge >trombone. I would appreciate any help you could provide. > > The horn was a King Liberty purchased new in approximately >1965. It was in >mint condition. It was lacquer, not silver. It had the original case which >was also in mint condition. The condition has been independently verified >by a friend of mine who recently saw the horn. > > So, does anybody have any idea what the fair market value >would be? He >needs to make an insurance claim and would at least like to get close. > > Thanks in advance for all the help that I know you will >provide. This list >is the greatest resource. > >Bill Redgate >Atlanta, Georgia > >P.S. The Bach 42 BGO deal that I asked about last week fell through. Thanks >for all the info though. I really do appreciate the help. (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:35:17 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size And, if one follows the poor logic of mouth cavity shape being uninvolved with tone production, then you could argue the trombone doesn't matter once you put a mute in. Where's my Sears trombone - Just shove my mute in and it'll sound like my Bach, right? After all, it's Before the item producing the final tone, right? Sarcastic, sorry - rough morning... J.c. > At 07:44 PM 1/12/2003 +0000, Keith Marr wrote: > >So how is the oral cavity going to affect tone if it is prior to the > >vibration source? > > Because it isn't. It is prior to ONE vibration source. The totality of > the tone is a sum of all sorts of vibrations -- and interference among > these various vibrations. > > Think about it for a minute. When we do multiphonics, what is > happening? What happens when we growl? And it is the same thing with that > didge tongue trick I mentioned in an earlier email. All these techniques > add vibrations to the air column BEFORE the lips and those vibrations all > come radiating out the bell. > > Why would we assume that the lips are the only tissue that can vibrate? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:55:46 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Test Test -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:15:55 -0700 From: Tom Ervin Subject: Bankelsangerlieder? ?Anybody got reasonably accurate "program note" info on that brass quintet chestnut, "Sonata from Die Bankelsangerlieder?" (and all the a's in that German noun have umlauts). (Anon./Robert King publ 1958) While we're at it, I/we could use more info on the Scheidt/DeJong "Canzona Bergamasca," the Morley Calvert "Monteregian Hills," the Collier Jones "Four Movements", and the John Cheetham "Scherzo." Info on the composers, works, history, whatever. In this case I could use it in a hurry, so perhaps write to me directly (or on the list, but direct will help) at: ervint@u.arizona.edu Grateful as always -- -------------------- Tom Ervin, Professor of Music, University of Arizona, PO Box 210004 Tucson AZ 85721-0004 Office 520/621-7021, Fax 520/621-8118 ervint@u.arizona.edu http://tom-ervin.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:37:37 -0600 From: Kelly Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Enough verbal thought experiments. To change the shape of your mouth: Get some Silly Putty, soft wax or something like that. Place some on the mid/front portion of the roof of your mouth (anterior palate) so it wedges between the (side) teeth to hold it in place. Push it up with your tongue or fingers. Try varying the amount as well as its shape, etc. See if the tone, tuning, etc changes. Use a recorder as it may sound different to your ears. The amount of vibration transmitted to your ears through your mouth may vary. Don't choke to death. For me - no change in tone, etc except by varying the amount of air support/air speed. I don't believe that vibration of your teeth (unless very loose!) would contribute to the sound. Few (if any) overtones should be generated upstream of the lips with a trombone > At 06:33 PM 1/12/2003 -0600, Jeff Albert wrote: > >Neither Keith nor I said that the oral cavity was unimportant. Neither > >of us said that changing the shape of the oral cavity while playing > >would not affect the sound. > > > >The original question asked if the size of one's oral cavity would tend > >to predetermine the sound one would naturally make on the trombone. > >Keith and I both maintained that since it is a non-resonant chamber in > >this system (and David just agreed that it is non-resonant), that the > >size of it in its regular state would not predetermine one's sound. We > >never claimed that moving your tongue or jaw or doing whatever Craig > >does with his didge wouldn't change the sound. I do however (and I > >think Keith does too) maintain that the pushing and pulling of the > >embouchure, not the resonant qualities of the oral cavity, that result > >from the tongue/jaw/didge gestures create the change in sound. > > > Well then, do you also argue the extra tones that occur when we do the > thing we call "multiphonics" are simply artifacts of the embouchure? > > Surely not. These are sound waves -- vibrations that have begun life way > upstream of the lips. And likewise you can channel the airstream inside > the mouth in such a way to cause the tissue of the mouth and tongue to > vibrate. When I do "that didge thing", I can feel the vibrations on the > roof of the mouth. It tickles. And if you put it on a scope, it is easy > to see that the tickle corresponds exactly with an explosion in high > overtones. > > To me, strong overtones make an interesting trombone color. I find > nothing > at all interesting in the institutional dark sound. Because of this, I > have spent many hours of practice trying to find embouchure settings and > manipulations that would produce the added overtone color. I have been > modestly successful in that. But no amount of embouchure manipulation > yields overtones that are nearly as strong as what I get with that didge > tongue trick. Because of that, I am certain that the extra overtones are > not being generated at the lips. The are happening upstream. > > I'm not recommending the didge tongue thing. The sound it makes is not > terribly pleasant for a trombone (but I guess anything is an improvement > for a didge), but I think it is useful to observe the phenomenon. I guess > my point is that I am 100% certain that tones can be generated at places > other than the lips (the larynx and the roof of the mouth in my two > examples). That being the case, I don't think we should categorically > rule > out the possibility of other parts of the mouth cavity adding to the > timbre > envelope. Isn't it plausible, for example, that certain teeth might add > some vibrations? And isn't it plausible that the turbulence of the air in > our mouths could add some high frequencies through a whistling effect? > > Food for thought, > CP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:16:13 EST From: Stephen Colley Subject: Oral cavity study Hey Folks, I'll track down the author at some point, but there was a study done in the '70's with major horn players in Europe call "Physiological Factors and Hornplaying" which established most of what has been discussed with resonance in the sinuses. The coolest experiment they did was to take a mold of Barry Tuckwell's upper palate and fit it to Ib Lansky-Otto's upperpalate. Tuckwell has a very bright sound, Lansky-Otto a very dark. By changing to upper palate shape, Lansky-Otto sounded much more like Tuckwell. There were several other interesting conclusions in the book. I'll see if I can track it down. Take care all, Steve Stephen Colley www.tuneupsystems.com 804-852-8219 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:03:50 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Dear list, I haven't been following this discussion very closely, but what I believe to be the case is if you concentrate on the sound that you want out of the trombone, the brain will take care of opening the mouth cavity to where it produces the optimal resonance. If you segment the body into parts, that's where you get into trouble--paralysis by analysis. It may be a trial and error thing, but too open is just as much of a problem as being too closed. If you're really interested in this area, then trying playing a note on the trombone with your teeth closed. As the mouth becomes more and more open, you will discover for yourself where the best degree of openness is for you. It will be different for everyone, as the dental and jaw structure for every person is unique. Here is where breath attacks are very helpful, because the wind is the sole motor force to cause the lips to vibrate, and the tongue doesn't get involved at all. My. 02, Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Avery, Ray (232)" To: Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > "In fact, I learned about changing > my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places." > > Interesting, also being a flutist my flute tone is usually much more open > and round after a good hour of trombone playing. > > Ray Avery > Director, Human Resources > Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. > 607-687-7669 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Gamble [mailto:sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG] > Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 2:18 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > > > Hello Jeff and Keith, > > I'm afraid you guys are incorrect about the oral cavity not having a > significant effect on tone. Much of your tone is determined by how you > shape the inside of your mouth. This is true for all wind instruments, > at least the ones that I have played. In fact, I learned about changing > my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places. > > Steve Gamble, Librarian > Tucson Symphony Orchestra > 2175 N. 6th Ave. > Tucson, AZ 85705 > sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org > 520-792-9155 x118 > 520-792-9314 fax > 520-991-7056 cel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Keith Marr > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 4:15 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > > Mouth cavity will have an effect on vocal tone and pitch, but not on > trombone playing. Correct me if I'm wrong (after all this time on > Trombone-L > why do I think I need to ask that!) but in singing the mouth cavity is > the > resonating chamber for the vibrations produced by the vocal chords, > whereas > in brass playing it's the instrument that fulfils that function for the > vibrations produced by the embouchure. > > So yes the mouth cavity and, as I believe I read somewhere once, > specifically the shape and height of the roof of the mouth determine > whether > you are a bass or a tenor, or in my case somewhere in-between. However > the > mouth cavity will have no bearing on tone or tuning on the trombone. > Let's > not get mouth cavity confused with issues concerning dentition, which > may > affect the embouchure. > > Was intended to be my 2p's worth, but ended up costing me nearer 5p! > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:38:20 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Er, actually the trombone is behind the item producing the vibration which makes it the item producing the final tone. When did anyone ever say the trombone was before? All I can do is reiterate the point that folks are not reading what's been said very carefully. So I guess I, for one am just going to stop saying it. . . Suffice it to say that all of these points have already been covered. What's causing the rough morning bruv? Lack of beer? One of the joys of being on GMT is we Brits can always get to the bar sooner than you guys. It's early evening here. ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.c. Sherman" To: Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > And, if one follows the poor logic of mouth cavity shape being uninvolved with > tone production, then you could argue the trombone doesn't matter once you put > a mute in. Where's my Sears trombone - Just shove my mute in and it'll sound > like my Bach, right? After all, it's Before the item producing the final tone, > right? > > Sarcastic, sorry - rough morning... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:16:54 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size The reverse is true for me... J.c. > "In fact, I learned about changing > my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places." > > Interesting, also being a flutist my flute tone is usually much more open > and round after a good hour of trombone playing. > > Ray Avery > Director, Human Resources > Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. > 607-687-7669 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Gamble [mailto:sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG] > Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 2:18 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > > > Hello Jeff and Keith, > > I'm afraid you guys are incorrect about the oral cavity not having a > significant effect on tone. Much of your tone is determined by how you > shape the inside of your mouth. This is true for all wind instruments, > at least the ones that I have played. In fact, I learned about changing > my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places. > > Steve Gamble, Librarian > Tucson Symphony Orchestra > 2175 N. 6th Ave. > Tucson, AZ 85705 > sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org > 520-792-9155 x118 > 520-792-9314 fax > 520-991-7056 cel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Keith Marr > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 4:15 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > > Mouth cavity will have an effect on vocal tone and pitch, but not on > trombone playing. Correct me if I'm wrong (after all this time on > Trombone-L > why do I think I need to ask that!) but in singing the mouth cavity is > the > resonating chamber for the vibrations produced by the vocal chords, > whereas > in brass playing it's the instrument that fulfils that function for the > vibrations produced by the embouchure. > > So yes the mouth cavity and, as I believe I read somewhere once, > specifically the shape and height of the roof of the mouth determine > whether > you are a bass or a tenor, or in my case somewhere in-between. However > the > mouth cavity will have no bearing on tone or tuning on the trombone. > Let's > not get mouth cavity confused with issues concerning dentition, which > may > affect the embouchure. > > Was intended to be my 2p's worth, but ended up costing me nearer 5p! > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:17:23 -0500 From: Jim Gayfer Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Paul, I like what you said about the brain taking care of your sound. Arnold Jacobs used to say that we should memorize a sound, not a feeling. That's why I like to get my students doing lots of listening. You need to feed the ears. Jim Gayfer Trombone/baritone NorthWinds Brass Quintet Ottawa, ON (613) 523-4285 -----Original Message----- From: Paul D. Kemp Jr. [mailto:paul@TRBNPLYR.COM] Sent: January 13, 2003 2:04 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size Dear list, I haven't been following this discussion very closely, but what I believe to be the case is if you concentrate on the sound that you want out of the trombone, the brain will take care of opening the mouth cavity to where it produces the optimal resonance. If you segment the body into parts, that's where you get into trouble--paralysis by analysis. It may be a trial and error thing, but too open is just as much of a problem as being too closed. If you're really interested in this area, then trying playing a note on the trombone with your teeth closed. As the mouth becomes more and more open, you will discover for yourself where the best degree of openness is for you. It will be different for everyone, as the dental and jaw structure for every person is unique. Here is where breath attacks are very helpful, because the wind is the sole motor force to cause the lips to vibrate, and the tongue doesn't get involved at all. My. 02, Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Avery, Ray (232)" To: Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > "In fact, I learned about changing > my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places." > > Interesting, also being a flutist my flute tone is usually much more open > and round after a good hour of trombone playing. > > Ray Avery > Director, Human Resources > Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. > 607-687-7669 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Gamble [mailto:sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG] > Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 2:18 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > > > Hello Jeff and Keith, > > I'm afraid you guys are incorrect about the oral cavity not having a > significant effect on tone. Much of your tone is determined by how you > shape the inside of your mouth. This is true for all wind instruments, > at least the ones that I have played. In fact, I learned about changing > my trombone tone color at a flute clinic of all places. > > Steve Gamble, Librarian > Tucson Symphony Orchestra > 2175 N. 6th Ave. > Tucson, AZ 85705 > sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org > 520-792-9155 x118 > 520-792-9314 fax > 520-991-7056 cel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Keith Marr > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 4:15 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > > Mouth cavity will have an effect on vocal tone and pitch, but not on > trombone playing. Correct me if I'm wrong (after all this time on > Trombone-L > why do I think I need to ask that!) but in singing the mouth cavity is > the > resonating chamber for the vibrations produced by the vocal chords, > whereas > in brass playing it's the instrument that fulfils that function for the > vibrations produced by the embouchure. > > So yes the mouth cavity and, as I believe I read somewhere once, > specifically the shape and height of the roof of the mouth determine > whether > you are a bass or a tenor, or in my case somewhere in-between. However > the > mouth cavity will have no bearing on tone or tuning on the trombone. > Let's > not get mouth cavity confused with issues concerning dentition, which > may > affect the embouchure. > > Was intended to be my 2p's worth, but ended up costing me nearer 5p! > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 20:31:09 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Let's just say plenty of beer yesterday... :-) J.c. > Er, actually the trombone is behind the item producing the vibration which > makes it the item producing the final tone. When did anyone ever say the > trombone was before? > > All I can do is reiterate the point that folks are not reading what's been > said very carefully. So I guess I, for one am just going to stop saying it. > . . Suffice it to say that all of these points have already been covered. > > What's causing the rough morning bruv? Lack of beer? One of the joys of > being on GMT is we Brits can always get to the bar sooner than you guys. > It's early evening here. > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J.c. Sherman" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 3:35 PM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size > > > > And, if one follows the poor logic of mouth cavity shape being uninvolved > with > > tone production, then you could argue the trombone doesn't matter once you > put > > a mute in. Where's my Sears trombone - Just shove my mute in and it'll > sound > > like my Bach, right? After all, it's Before the item producing the final > tone, > > right? > > > > Sarcastic, sorry - rough morning... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:03:42 -0600 From: Eric Edwards Subject: [Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size] I was gonna say I'm jealous. But this means you Brits also have to get up seven hours before we do!! Tongue firmly embedded in cheek ;) Eric > > What's causing the rough morning bruv? Lack of beer? One of the joys of > being on GMT is we Brits can always get to the bar sooner than you guys. > It's early evening here. > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:19:46 -0800 From: Karl Hinterbichler Subject: Asssistantship/Scholarship TROMBONISTS(Tenor & Bass) Graduate Fellowships, Teaching Assistantships and Tuition Waivers The University of New Mexico Music Department is looking for an excellent student and performer on trombone (tenor or bass) wishing to study for a Master's Degree. Continue your education in beautiful Albuquerque, New Mexico. Clear blue skies, fabulous sunsets, along with the spectacular Sandia Mountains make Albuquerque an ideal place to enjoy learning. Coupled with an excellent faculty and a great facility, what better place to get a Master's Degree? A special tuition plan is available for out-of-state students. Karl Hinterbichler, Professor of Low Brass Dr. Hinterbichler holds a BM degree in Music History and Literature and a MM in Wind Instruments, both from the University of Michigan and a DMA in Trombone from the University of North Texas. He has also studied with Donald Miller, former bass trombonist of the Buffalo Philharmonic, Edward Kleinhammer, retired bass trombonist of the Chicago Symphony, Dennis Smith, former principal trombonist of the Los Angeles Philharmonic and Armin Rosin, noted German soloist. He has performed as principal trombone with the National Repertoire Orchestra, the New Mexico Symphony Orchestra, Opera Southwest, the Orchestra of Santa Fe and as bass trombonist with the Flint Symphony. He was also a member of the Florida Symphony for two seasons and has performed with the Dallas Symphony (on bass trumpet and tenor tuba), the Eric Hawkins Dance Company and the Santa Fe Opera. He is currently principal trombone for Opera Southwest and New Mexico Brass Quintet. The latter ensemble is one of the most active and well known of its kind in the nation, having toured throughout the world and recently released its fourth CD. As a pedagogue Dr. Hinterbichler has given masterclasses, lectures and lessons throughout the United States, in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Finland, Russia, Hungary, Italy, Australia and China. He has published arrangements, editions and various articles and is currently an assistant editor for the INTERNATIONAL TROMBONE ASSOCIATION JOURNAL, in charge of new music listings, and programs. University of New Mexico Wind Symphony, Chamber Winds & Orchestra Under the direction of Prof. Eric Rombach-Kendall, the UNM Wind Symphony has been selected to perform for the Southwest Conference of the College Band Director¶s Association and the National Conference of the CBDNA. Comprised of approximately 45 musicians, these ensembles perform the very best in wind repertoire, routinely feature world class guest artist and commission and premiere new works. Most recently the Wind Symphony completed a recording project with NY Philharmonic principal trumpeter Phil Smith and principal trombonist Joe Alessi. The CD has recently been issued on the Summit label. Alessi is currently recording another CD with the Wind Symphony, to be released next year. The University of New Mexico Orchestra under the direction of Dr. Jorge Perez Gomez presents an average of nine concerts per academic year, including major symphonic repertoire, choral/orchestral works, and a major operatic production. A sampling of repertoire with prominent low brass parts that the orchestra has performed in past seasons: Brahms - Sym. No. 2, Wagner - Meistersinger Prelude, Rimsky-Korsakov - Russian Easter Overture, Respighi - The Pines of Rome, Beethoven - Sym. No. 9, Mozart - Requiem, Revueltas - Sensemaya, Mussorgsky - Pictures at an Exhibition, Night on Bald Mountain, Tchaikovsky - Symphony No. 5, Shostakovich Sym. No. 9, Kodaly - Hary Janos, Orff - Carmina Burana and Rossini - William Tell. The Orff has been recorded on CD and is available for purchase through the Music Department. The orchestra is also currently involved in a long term project to record the orchestral music of Revueltas. For further information please contact: Dr. Karl Hinterbichler, Professor of Low Brass Department of Music University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131 E-mail: khtbn@unm.edu Check out the University of New Mexico website: www.unm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:08:34 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size] From: "Eric Edwards" > I was gonna say I'm jealous. But this means you Brits also have to get up seven hours before we do!! Only those Brits who have day jobs. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:03:37 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity size From: > I think the lips and only the lips vibrate. I'd say everything that comes into contact with your chops vibrates, especially the bones in your skull. That's why your horn sounds so awful when you have catarrh and can't hear the sound coming from the bell, only that passing thru' your head. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:21:31 -0800 From: Pat Chapman Subject: Re: Trombone value Hi all, A few years ago our son's home was burglarized and one of my husbands trombones was taken, it was a 1953 Olds that had just been reconditioned. The insurance company had us find a new trombone that matched the stolen one in "approximate value" and send them the information. The case was considered a second item and since we had just purchased it, we had the receipt handy. We did have to purchase another horn and not just collect a check. However since most new horns come with a case, we were able to actually upgrade. Hope it works out for your friend, Pat On Monday, January 13, 2003, at 05:44 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: > For insurance purposes I would go with the cost of a new one for a > couple of reasons. It is easily verifiable, so you won't get any > argument from the insurer. And, oddly enough, even though a mint '65 > 3B > is more desirable by many people than a new one, new ones still cost > more. > > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- >> L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Redgate >> Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 11:57 PM >> To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >> Subject: [TBN-L] Trombone value >> >> Dear List: >> >> An acquaintance recently had his trombone stolen. For > insurance >> purposes, >> he needs a value but has no idea. So, I come to the font of all > knowledge >> trombone. I would appreciate any help you could provide. >> >> The horn was a King Liberty purchased new in approximately > 1965. >> It was in >> mint condition. It was lacquer, not silver. It had the original case >> which >> was also in mint condition. The condition has been independently > verified >> by a friend of mine who recently saw the horn. >> >> So, does anybody have any idea what the fair market value > would >> be? He >> needs to make an insurance claim and would at least like to get close. >> >> Thanks in advance for all the help that I know you will > provide. >> This list >> is the greatest resource. >> >> Bill Redgate >> Atlanta, Georgia >> >> P.S. The Bach 42 BGO deal that I asked about last week fell through. >> Thanks >> for all the info though. I really do appreciate the help. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:38:09 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: Bankelsangerlieder? Tom, This is something I posted to the list five years ago. Howard ++++++++ Actually, one should say the *so-called* Bankelsangerlieder Sonata (or Baenkelsaengerlieder, i.e., with umlauts on both "a"s). Why so-called? Because the real name of the collection from which it stems, as well as the identity of its composer have been known now for at least 30 years. (Though apparently not to Robt. King.) The term Baenkelsaengerlieder was first brought into connection with this sonata by the German musicologist Robert Eitner in an article published in the "Monatshefte fuer Musik-Geschichte" in 1882. Eitner had been asked to inspect a bundle of old partbooks that someone had bought at an auction in 1880. Among a lot of incomplete works he found a complete set 6 books, lacking a titlepage, containing a "rather drastic text with crude jokes and unrefined poetry in popular style" with music. He put the music into score and found before him "a collection of Baengelsaengerlieder, dances and other instrumental music from the year 1684 or 1685." Several pieces from the collection, including our sonata, were published in the appendix of Eitner's article, which was then the source for the Robert King edition of the sonata and the name applied to it there. I don't know what happened to this copy senza titlepage, but there exists a copy with titlepage, dated 1688, in the Herzog August Library in Wolfenbuettel, which I was able to hold in my hands and look at a few years ago. The title of the collection is: "Musicalisch-Tuerckischer Eulen-Spiegel..." (Another copy is in the Library of Congress.) The question of the composer is a bit tricky. Since the print was obviously not licensed by the authorities, in other words, it was an illegal publication, the composer chose to use a pseudonym: "composed and published by the well-known Dacianischen Simplicissimo" Who was the Dacian Simplicissimo? (Acccording to my Webster's, Dacia was an ancient country in SE Europe, roughly equivalent to Romania and Bessarabia) It is generally accepted today (see Groves, RISM) that the composer of the "Musicalisch-Tuerckischer Eulen-Spiegel" was none other than Daniel Speer. The atribution to Speer is based on stylistic comparisons to pieces known to be by him. Another aspect is that our Dacianischen Simplicissimo shares the initials of his name with Daniel Speer. This (the initials) might seem rather weak evidence, but it is known that Speer liked this sort of thing. In his collection "REcens FAbricatus LAbor oder Neugebachene Taffel-Schnitz..." (1685), which contains his famous sonata for 4 trombones, the name of the composer is given as "Anse di Rilpe." Here he made it easy for us, "Anse di Rilpe" being an anagram for Daniel Speer. In any case, the "Musicalisch-Tuerckischer Eulen-Spiegel" contains 3 sonatas for 2 cornetti, 3 trombones and basso continuo (nos. 25, 29, 30), and 3 sonatas for 2 trumpets, 3 trombones and basso continuo (nos. 26, 27, 28). The sonata known as the "Baenkelsaengerlieder Sonata" is number 29 in the collection. Its proper title would therefore be: "Sonata No. 29 from the 'Musicalisch-Tuerckischer Eulen-Spiegel' (1688) by Daniel Speer" +++++++++++++++ Samuel Scheidt's "Canzona Bergamasca" was published in the collection "Paduana, Galliarda, Couranta..." (Hamburg, 1621). The title given in the Scheidt collected edition is "Canzon ˆ 5 voc. ad imitationem Bergamas. Angl." which I suppose means "Canzona in imitation of an English Bergamasca." The original edition includes a continuo part. I have no idea what DeJong did to the piece, probably just put in dynamic markings and transposed it. ++++++++++++++ At 11:15 13.01.03 -0700, you wrote: >?Anybody got reasonably accurate "program note" info on that brass >quintet chestnut, "Sonata from Die Bankelsangerlieder?" (and all >the a's in that German noun have umlauts). (Anon./Robert King publ >1958) > >While we're at it, I/we could use more info on >the Scheidt/DeJong "Canzona Bergamasca," >the Morley Calvert "Monteregian Hills," >the Collier Jones "Four Movements", and >the John Cheetham "Scherzo." > >Info on the composers, works, history, whatever. > >In this case I could use it in a hurry, so perhaps write to me >directly (or on the list, but direct will help) at: > > ervint@u.arizona.edu > >Grateful as always > > >-- >-------------------- >Tom Ervin, Professor of Music, University of Arizona, >PO Box 210004 >Tucson AZ 85721-0004 >Office 520/621-7021, Fax 520/621-8118 ervint@u.arizona.edu >http://tom-ervin.com -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:56:12 -0800 From: alex iles Subject: Audition announcement:Disney College Band To all College age tenor and bass trombonists, Disney will be auditioning all instruments for the Disneyland College All-American College in February and the beginning of March...I highly recommend this program to anyone interested in finding out about a profession in music. The gig runs from June 2 to August 16, 2003 The Disney College Band is a fun, highly professional performing group and an excellent education experience...I was a member of the 1980 band and it was a life-changing experience for me. The audition usually consists of sight-reading in a variety of styles [marches, show music, jazz tunes, big band charts], and whatever music you chose to play. You should bring your own music to the audition. A few sections of a recital-type solo is ok. You might also want to play some pieces/excerpts demonstrating your ability to play other styles [e.g., jazz, latin, pop big band]. If you want to improvise for them [I HIGHLY recommend that you do!!], you can either bring your own play-along CD or just play something acappella. An audition usually lasts about 10 minutes. Here are the locations for the nationwide audition tour...[all auditions will be held from 9am-4pm on a first-come, first served basis]. This is NOT an orchestral/academic audition!! Feb. 8: [saturday] BOSTON, MA... Berklee College of music [Genko Uchida Bldg] Feb 9[sunday]. WASHINGTON, DC... George Mason Univ. [Fairfax,VA] Perf Arts Bldg Feb 15[sat] CHICAGO, IL... Northwestern University [Evanston], Regenstein Hall Feb 16 [sunday] KANSAS CITY, MO...University of Missouri-KC, Grant Hall Feb 22 [saturday] DALLAS, TX University of N. Texas [Denton] School of Music, Commons Feb. 23 [sunday] ATLANTA, GA...Georgia Tech, Music dept.] March 1 [saturday] DENVER CO...Unive. of N. Colorado [Greeley], Frasier Hall March 2 [sunday] ANAHEIM, CA...Disneyland Resort, Rehearsal Hall For more info, email DLR.Colleg.band@Disney.com or call Lori @714 781-3414 or you can go to....www.disney.com/disneycareers/dep/collegeband.html You can also read a nice account of the program written by Jennifer Wharton in her article in the Online Trombone Journal...www.trombone.org/articles/library/summer-mouse.asp Best wishes, Alex Iles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:53:16 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: Bankelsangerlieder? See also David Fetter's article on (actually, a biography of) Daniel Speer in the ITA Journal Vol. VI, January, 1978. I believe David's dissertation was on Speer and he did significant research into the so-called "Bankelsangerlieder," its origins, history, etc. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:14:08 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size I have very mixed feelings about this thread. I do believe that your mouth cavity, throat, etc are going to have an effect on the sound. It would be that way for any other acoustic system. But like other acoustic systems, itÕs very easy to say qualitative things about it and very hard to predict quantitative effects. On the other hand, I sure hope that how my mouth is doesnÕt effect the sound coming out of the bell, the way it effects what it sounds like in my head. With my double-tonguing, for example, my TA sounds totally different than my KA, in my head, although it sounds pretty even when I listen to it recorded. IÕm not going to wear a prosthetic in my mouth to change itÕs size, to sound better, so I guess, in the long run, the conversation is of little importance. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:15:44 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: New Age rhymes with sewage What do you get when you play New Age music backwards? New Age music. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:02:37 -0800 From: Joshua Brown Subject: ITA Press Hi list, I'd like to let everyone know that the ITA Press now has an online shopping cart: http://www.ita-store.com/ The ITA Press specializes in trombone music, including a number of solos and ensembles by Eric Ewazen. In addition, the catalog has numerous pieces released in the past year. Joshua Brown ITA Webmaster http://www.trombone.net/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:03:24 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Bill Russo I was surprised when I opened my morning Chicago Tribune today only to see that Stan Kenton trombonist/composer/arranger Bill Russo had passed away. Bill was in the Kenton band in its greatest days: when the likes of Rosolino, Roberts, Maynard were in the band. Virtually every chair in the band was occupied by a virtuoso player. In my opinion, Bill composed and arranged some of the Kenton band's best music. I listened to "Sketches On Standards" until I almost wore it out. His compositions in later years were quite different - much more "experimental", less accessible, probably. I really loved his Kenton era writing. I also had the honor of being in Bill's first (1965-1968)Chicago band, which actually consisted of two bands, with two drummers and a four-piece cello section! I will certainly miss his great creative energy and his lovely music. Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com P.S. The following is the obituary from the Tribune. Bill passed away on Saturday, January 11. ********************************************************* Last Monday night, Chicago composer William Russo was leading his swing band at the Jazz Showcase, on West Grand Avenue, while drawing oxygen from a thin plastic tube. Though looking frail because of recent battles with cancer and pneumonia, Mr. Russo--one of America's most accomplished, versatile and prolific jazz composers--maintained a characteristically unrelenting schedule of performance and composition. "That was an exciting show, and Bill said he couldn't be having more fun," said his sister, Barbara Russo Evans. "Nothing was going to keep him from making music." Mr. Russo's death Saturday, Jan. 11, of pneumonia in Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center, at age 74, caught even some of his most ardent fans by surprise and left an immense artistic void in jazz and in Chicago music. During more than 50 years as a composer and bandleader, Mr. Russo penned landmark jazz scores and innovative rock operas, wrote influential texts on the art of instrumental arranging, and educated generations of musicians at Columbia College Chicago, where he founded the music department. "Bill Russo was one of a kind, an incredibly imaginative jazzman who gave more to music in Chicago and around the world than many people realize," said author Studs Terkel, who knew Mr. Russo for more than half a century. "Just look at all those great pieces he wrote and the great Chicago Jazz Ensemble that he led. Look at all those kids he taught at Columbia College." Added Larry Combs, principal clarinetist for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and a jazz improviser who often collaborated with Mr. Russo, "He was one of my idols early on." Mr. Russo was at a turning point in his life and career, for since retiring from Columbia last year he was able to invest his energies in his Chicago Jazz Ensemble and in composing works. In November he unveiled his last and possibly greatest jazz work, "Jubilatum," a typically idiosyncratic composition based on Gregorian chant and scored for big band, chamber string section, vocal sextet, classical soprano and jazz trumpet soloist. The piece capped one of the most prodigious and circuitous jazz careers of the second half of the 20th Century. Mr. Russo, who was born in Chicago on June 25, 1928, became a force to be reckoned with when he was barely out of Senn High School. Having studied with bandleader-pianist Lennie Tristano in the early 1940s, by the end of that decade he was leading the groundbreaking Experiment in Jazz band and in the 1950s penning such classic Stan Kenton charts as "23 Degrees North, 82 Degrees West" (which brilliantly merged Afro-Cuban rhythm with American jazz technique) and "Frank Speaking" (a jazzlike concerto dedicated to Kenton trombonist Frank Rosolino). "Those pieces that Bill Russo wrote and arranged for Stan Kenton were some of the best works ever to come out of Kenton's band," veteran Chicago jazz radio announcer Dick Buckley said. Consistently at the forefront of new ideas in music, Mr. Russo created the London Jazz Orchestra in the early 1960s and in 1965 founded the Chicago Jazz Ensemble, which performed historic jazz repertoire and newly composed works with a seriousness of purpose more commonly found in classical symphony orchestras. Though the venture was interrupted, with Mr. Russo disbanding it in 1968 and officially restarting it in 1994, this repertory band foreshadowed the rise of such 1990s ensembles as the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra in New York, led by Wynton Marsalis, and the Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra in Washington. "I figure I've got three, four more years to lead this band, maybe a little more," Mr. Russo told the Tribune in November. "So in that time, we've got to make the ensemble bigger and stronger. We've got to make sure it can fly on its own for a long time to come." Though the immediate future of his ensemble is uncertain, Mr. Russo's family hopes the band will endure as his legacy. "Bill believed it could go on swinging forever," his sister said. "It ought to, as a reminder of all the great music he gave us." Mr. Russo also is survived by four children, Camile Blinstrub, Condee Russo, Alexander Russo and Whitney Schildgen. Services are to be determined. Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:07:21 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size > IÕm not going to wear a prosthetic in my mouth to change itÕs size, to sound > better, so I guess, in the long run, the conversation is of little > importance. > > DanP I posed the original question and while it's mainly a curiosity I might as well pose the other questions I was going to ask if there was some sort of conclusion reached. HA. Still wouldn't mind hearing more debate and more about the studies that have been done though. Although one original question that wasn't really addressed was - is it easier for those with a smaller oral cavity to play in the upper register? And vice versa lower. And if this were true, we could be measuring kids mouths to see what instrument they might tend to excel at. Which won't happen and shouldn't happen for many many reasons but it was an interesting thought. Along those lines, if a larger oral cavity makes for a bigger sound and an easier lower register, would it then be good for those people to try to make their oral cavity smaller for the upper register? I've partly answered this for myself. Using the vowel "eee" has disastrous results for me. I used to do this and all it does is exercise the abs. It's imperative that my throat and back of my tongue are very open. However I'm finding that making the front part of my mouth "smaller" by widening and raising my tongue only at the front helps a great deal and doesn't pinch off any air. Svenne alluded to this on the bulletin board but it's taken me a while to start to get a feel and a sound for how that works. Like Paul said we need to think about the sound and let the body do what's best to create that sound and this is what my body is doing. (I'm rebuilding my embouchure after years off and am making some changes for the better.) Those were my original thoughts. Next I'll ask about lacquer, then legit vs. classical, then maybe whether or not gold plating changes the sound of a mouthpiece. ;) (kidding) Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:13:43 -0800 From: Matt Vaughn Subject: Re: Audition announcement:Disney College Band This post brings back memories! I played in the Disneyland College Band about ten or eleven years ago. I read Jennifer Wharton's article and thought that her experience was much like mine--lots of good experiences mixed with some real life. When I auditioned, they still had a larger programDisney Worldorld with a full orchestra. Being more of a square, that's what I was aiming for. As it turned out, my twin brother ended up in Florida (on violin), and I ended up out in Florida in a jazz band! Obviously, it didn't hinder my development as a classical musician--it opened up new possibilities; musically, professipersonally personnally. Matt Vaughn, Philadelphia Orchestra __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:20:51 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Oien" > Those were my original thoughts. Next I'll ask about lacquer, then legit > vs. classical, then maybe whether or not gold plating changes the sound > of a mouthpiece. ;) (kidding) > Jeff Oien > WHAT? No SLIDE-O-MIX Question? Fred H ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 12 Jan 2003 to 13 Jan 2003 (#2003-13) ****************************************************************