Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 6 Jan 2003 to 7 Jan 2003 (#2003-7) Date: Wednesday, January 8, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 83 messages totalling 3435 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. What position is C on a Bb Trombone? (15) 2. CD of Excerpts for sale 3. Natural Tuning (5) 4. putting a bass trombone together (9) 5. Natural Tuning - an error 6. Crumhorns 7. Shires and Edwards 8. web-radio (8) 9. Intonation solutions (8) 10. JSO tour to USA 11. contra bell ////cimbasso bell specs ///thayer //mouseville masher ysl695 12. boptism jazz duet books !!////bach 12 lt 13. Slide Lubricants (17) 14. Trombone travel case/Burkle (4) 15. examples of fine intonation 16. Trombone 4-tets and Re: Intonation solutions (3) 17. Overture 1812 18. London Brass charts 19. Inquiry 20. slide lubricants 21. Slide O Mix 22. About Burkle (was re: [TBN-L] 7H proportions) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:29:48 -0800 From: Andrew Michael Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? At 11:38 PM -0600 1/6/03, Wayne Dyess wrote: >At 9:59 PM -0600 1/6/03, Norbert Wegner wrote: >>What position is a high C on a Bb trombone? 1st or 3rd? > >>Most of you bass clef-ers out there will probably say 3rd but I say >>it is 1st. >----snip-----> > >So for this ole boy, it's about six of one or half a dozen of the other. I thought all those C's were in sixth! Actually, I agree with Wayne and don't see how this has anything to do with transposing instruments. To follow Norbert's analogy further should we play middle G (the one above middle C) in fourth just because trumpet players play the same note with respect to their horns with first and second valves? Well, sometimes we do but sometimes we use sharp 2nd because we can. Heck, sometimes I use both in the same phrase. Personally, it's so nice have a slide and all those choices and not having to worry about instrument pitch versus concert pitch. Of course, I read Bb treble clef (like many of us) as tenor clef after fixing the key signature. However, I play with a woman who plays lots of baritone in bands and she reads tenor clef on a trombone as Bb treble after fixing the key signature. So, its really all just semantics. Cheers, Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:35:02 -0800 From: Gordon Cherry Subject: CD of Excerpts for sale Introducing the Complete Low Brass Excerpt Collection Packages from Cherry Classics Music These collections include the complete original, authentic parts for low brass section using pdf format on a CD-ROM disk If you have previously purchased a partial collection, we can upgrade you to the Complete collection very easily...AND you receive a complete 100% credit based on you previous purchase! See our new web site at Cherry - Classics.com (we're still ironing out the bugs, thanks for your patience) 1. Complete collection All of the excerpts below plus more on one giant collection on CD-ROM compiled by G. Cherry $ 89.00 (send us an email asking to see our complete data base file and free samples) 2. Mahler Symphonies #1,2,3,5,6,8,9 compiled by G. Cherry $15.00 3. Wagner Complete "Ring Cycle" compiled by G. Cherry $ 25.00 Das Reingold, Die Walk=FCre, Siegfried, Gotterdammerung Includes parts for 2 tenors, bass trombone, contrabass trombone, tuba and bass trumpet. Plus complete parts for: Faust Overture, Flying Dutchman Overture, Lohengrin Prelude, Meistersinger Overture, Ride of the Valkyries, Magic Fire Music, Siegfrieds's Rhine Journey, Tannhauser Overture and Venusberg Music, Reinzi Overture, Prelude & Love Death from Tristan, Prelude to Act 3 of Lohengrin 4. Bruckner Symphonies #4,5,6,7,8,9 compiled by G. Cherry $15.00 5. Strauss, R. Aus Italien, Alpine Symphony, Dance Suite, Death & Transfiguration, Ein Heldenleben*, Till, Macbeth, Don Quixote*, Rosenkavalier, Die Frau Ohne Schatten Suite, Don Juan, Symphonia Domestica, Intermezzo, Dance of 7 Veils...(*includes transposed Tenor tuba parts) compiled by G. Cherry $15.00 6. Tchaikowsky All major works including 6 Symphonies, 1812 Overture, Romeo & Juliet, Hamlet, etc. compiled by G. Cherry $15.00 7. European Masters Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Weber, Dvorak, Liszt, Grieg, Bloch, Smetana & more compiled by G. Cherry $25.00 8. Russian Masters Stravinsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Moussorgsky, Khachaturian, Glinka, Gliere, Glazounov.. compiled by G. Cherry $15.00 9. French/Spanish Berlioz, Bizet, Chabrier, D'Indy, Debussy, Dukas, Falla, Faure, Franck, Ravel, Lalo, Gounod=8A compiled by G. Cherry $15.00 10. Classical/Baroque Bach, Beethoven, Handel, Haydn, Mozart =8Aincludes most of their work compiled by G. Cherry $10.00 11. British/Scandinavian Masters Holst, Vaughan Williams, Elgar, Sibelius, Nielsen, Grieg compiled by G. Cherry $10.00 11. Italian Masters Rossini, Respighi, Verdi compiled by G. Cherry $ 8.00 ** Please note that the above excerpts are in available in pdf format, compatible with ALL PC and Mac computers and able to print out on any printer** ** To view our entire list of works listed by composer for the above collections please go to our web site: http://www.Cherry-Classics.com ** All music listed on this page may be ordered by VISA, Mastercard, Billpoint, PayPal or money order ** Pdf samples of our data base & all music listed above can be downloaded and viewed before ordering, just ask us to send a copy ** Satisfaction is 100% Guaranteed, so there is no risk to you whatsoever! ** Shipping costs: within North America $2.50 International $3.00 Shipping via air mail= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 02:03:55 -0500 From: Neal Schermerhorn Subject: Re: Natural Tuning Daniel Pliskin wrote: > 1 TB is in tune > 2 TB is in tune > 3 TB is sharp by 1/3%, or 1/18th of a slide position > 4 TB is in tune > 5 TB is flat by over 1%, or 1/6th of a slide position > 6 TB is in tune > 7 TB is flat by over 2%, or 1/3th of a slide position > 8 TB is in tune > 9 TB is in tune > 10 TB is flat by over 1%, or 1/6th of a slide position I respectfully disagree on 6 and 9. They're not in tune. Consider: 1 to 3 is sharp. 2 to 6, and 3 to 9, sould also be sharp. It's the same frequency ratio. Here's what I use, with the caveat that all horns differ somewhat. All the 'Bb' partials (1, 2, 4, 8) are in tune. All the 'F' partials (3, 6, 12) need to have the position lengthened a tad. All the 'D' partials (5, 10) need to be shortened a tad. The remaining ones are the 'Ab' partial (7), which must be shortened about 2 tads, the 'C' partial (9) which must be lengthened 2 tads, and the 'Eb/E' partial (11) which must be played in half positions, almost exactly. A tad cannot be defined here. Ears and tuners will show you. Of course, this is how to play in 'equal temperament' which is not always how you should play. However, it is a good basis to begin from. If you are playing with ET instruments like piano, you need to know this. If it's an ensemble with only winds and unfretted strings, the group's intonation is closer to 'pure'. To tune a chord, consider that in ET the fifth is only a teensy bit flat - 2 cents. Barely noticeable, you'll automatically get it in tune if you listen. The major third of a major triad in ET is sharp - 11 cents if memory serves me, So you need to lower thirds from ET tuning. Minor triads are the opposite. You need to raise the third of a minor triad from ET tuning. If you use that as your basis - major thirds are too wide in ET and minor thirds are too narrow - you'll be able to quickly figure out hjow to get the chord perfectly tuned. Neal Schermerhorn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:06:51 -0800 From: sdlr Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together Gary, Thank you for clearing up the Edwards, Greenhoe, Shires history. It was not my intention to take sides with anyone with these posts. I have one of the best bass trombones ever made thanks to you and your staff. My whole intent with my posts is to help other players get the best horn they can. With my research over the last two years, I have found that your valves(Greenhoe) and O.A. Thayer valves are superior to the Thayer valves sold by Edwards on their horns. If someone wants Thayer valves, they should select those made in Oregon. If someone wants the best valves to build the best horn they can, I recommend as strongly as I can they use your valves. All my friends who have played them are blown away at how great they are and I can't tell you what a thrill it is to play my horn every time I pick it up. I was lucky enough to play a four hour gig on new years eve. I was called in as a sub at the last minute. What a pleasure it was to sight read that book and think of nothing but the music. No thoughts of setting yourself to play certain notes or figure out what the best way to play a note was to get the best sound or response from the horn. Whether I played an open horn, single trigger, or two triggers the horn just played itself. From the first note to the last it was nothing but pure pleasure. What more can I say. If any player out there is even thinking of converting a horn, it will be the best decision you can make. If you are looking at building or buying a new horn, start your research, make a date to play one of Gary's new horns, play some of the other custom options and get what fits you best. You will then have a horn made for you to the way you play and you will have a horn you can treasure for life. Best regards, Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Greenhoe To: sdlr ; Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 9:27 PM Subject: RE: [TBN-L] putting a bass trombone together > sdlr, > > Actually I believe I'm getting the short end of the stick as I read over and > over that Shires designed the Edwards trombones. This project was begun in > 1987 and had no involvement whatsoever from Shires until I strongly lobbied > to have the Getzens hire him to oversee production on a full time basis. > All of the bell combinations and other critical design features were well in > place before his short two year tenure and any development in that timeframe > was carried out in consultation with me. Edwards was my baby and Steve was > primarily developing the Getzen trombones from the technology developed for > Edwards. I continued on with Edwards for several years after his departure > was instrumental in Joe Alessi's horn, sterling leadpipes, and Dave Taylor's > horn among other things long after Shires left. > > Sorry to have to rain on your parade. > Gary > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Bass Trombone stuff > > > Glad you found a horn that works for you. I think you gave Shires short > shrift though. Are you aware that he was the original maker of the Edwards > trombones? After he left, they continued to produce what he designed, but, > he was not the guy making the slides or the bells that made them famous. > Consequently, they are only cheap (but pricey) imitations of his work. > > When I decided on a Shires it was after trying Edwards basses that some > symphonic players I know have, trying Shires combinations that were > available in LA and going to Shires in Mass. and trying several bells (my > research helped me pick the valves, Greenhoes, in advance as well as the > dual bore slide). > > I hate the sound of double thayer valves on basses, I love the sound of > single thayer valves on tenors. I did a lot of research on Edwards, Yamaha, > Holton, Shires and Rath and for myself picked Shires with a double dependent > Greenhoe valve system, red brass bell (soldered rim), yellow brass tuning > slide (B) and hand slide (nickle end slide bow) and yellow brass 2.5 > leadpipe. I play on a Jeff Reynolds mouthpiece (which is actually a copy of > a Minick L, with a few changes). > > Steve Shires bells are fantastic, but you have to pick the one out of > about 20 variations of material (yellow, gold, red brass) and varying > thicknesses (thinner toward the flare, or thicker, or thinner in the bell > throat, more Conn-like, or Bach-like, or Holton-like, which is really a > redder brass copy of Conn). The only way to do that is go to him with the > kind of music you play and let him listen and advise you. His ears and mind > are fantastic. You tell him (and play for him) the kind of music you want to > do, he is great about picking the combination (out of 10-20 bells, several > leadpipes, tuning slides of various material) that you are looking for. > > At the end, he sent me two bell sections, 4 leadpipes, and the slide (his > are the best, ask anybody) to try to find what I wanted. I picked what I > wanted after several weeks of experimenting and sent him back the stuff i > didn't want. > > BTW, I am a professional player, IOW playing and teaching is my only > occupation and has been for many years. > > I am attaching some of the research I did when studying the Shires > trombones. > > Jim Prindle > San Diego > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 02:08:01 -0500 From: Neal Schermerhorn Subject: Re: Natural Tuning - an error Oops. In my last bit on natural tuning, I reversed flat and sharp. Lack of sleep. Let me say that again, correctly this time. To tune a chord, consider that in ET the fifth is only a teensy bit sharp - 2 cents. Barely noticeable, you'll automatically get it in tune if you listen. The major third of a major triad in ET is flat - 11 cents if memory serves me, So you need to raise thirds from ET tuning. Minor triads are the opposite. You need to lower the third of a minor triad from ET tuning. If you use that as your basis - major thirds are too narrow in ET and minor thirds are too wide - you'll be able to quickly figure out how to get the chord perfectly tuned. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:13:31 -0800 From: sdlr Subject: putting a bass trombone together Gary, Thank you for clearing up the Edwards, Greenhoe, Shires history. = It was not my intention to take sides with anyone with these posts. I have one of the best bass trombones ever made thanks to you and your staff. My whole intent with my posts is to help other players get the = best horn they can. With my research over the last two years, I have found = that your valves(Greenhoe) and O.A. Thayer valves are superior to the Thayer valves sold by Edwards on their horns. If someone wants Thayer valves, = they should select those made in Oregon. If someone wants the best valves to build the best horn they can, I recommend as strongly as I can they use your valves. All my friends who have played them are blown away at how great they are and I can't tell = you what a thrill it is to play my horn every time I pick it up. I was = lucky enough to play a four hour gig on new years eve. I was called in as a = sub at the last minute. What a pleasure it was to sight read that book and think of nothing but the music. No thoughts of setting yourself to play certain notes or figure out what the best way to play a note was to get = the best sound or response from the horn. Whether I played an open horn, = single trigger, or two triggers the horn just played itself. From the first = note to the last it was nothing but pure pleasure. What more can I say. If any player out there is even thinking of converting a horn, it will = be the best decision you can make. If you are looking at building or = buying a new horn, start your research, make a date to play one of Gary's new = horns, play some of the other custom options and get what fits you best. You = will then have a horn made for you to the way you play and you will have a = horn you can treasure for life. Best regards, Steve =20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:18:08 -0800 From: Randy Fendrick Subject: Crumhorns To follow up on our earlier discussion re: the merits of crumhorns, on the alt.binaries.mp3.classical list tonight someone had to good taste to post an album of David Munroe and the London Early Music Consort. The first cut featured a sackbut player which was really enjoyable and allows this missive to be posted on this list. If you have never heard David Munroe and the London Early Music Consort you are missing one of life's real treats. He committed suicide some 20 years ago, but what a player and what a group. I was fortunate to hear them live on their last American tour. Every player in the group were virtuosos players and they made Early Music come alive. I recall taking a cousin with me who was a high school All-American football player, and who had absolutely no background for Early Music, let along other forms of legitimate music and he came away just blown away with these folks. Too bad that David choose to leave us early. Rush to your nearest CD store and purchase a copy of the one of their CD's. If you can't find one then do the dishonorable thing and download one off a news group. later, Randy Fendrick Southside Chicago Seven Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:58:28 -0800 From: jimandcat@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Shires and Edwards Sorry Gary, I was repeating what I had heard over and over rather than what I knew first hand. I knew (from your posts about the Alessi horn and sterling leadpipes, which I searched out of the old Trombone FAQ) that you were one of the Edwards pioneers, but I had no clue what your involvement was. FWIW, I am loving my Shires bass trombone, but I think it is a lot about the dependent Greenhoe valves. I have tried several Thayers, they do the job. But your valves make music work so much easier. Anybody can build a fast car. Only a very special few can build one that is fun to drive. I know I am playing on the Greenhoe valves that Shires makes, and yours might be better than those. But these are pretty darn good. I never used to use the valve in the upper register (C's and B's) but I do often now. The major test for me on valves is how the horn sounds when you do not pull the trigger. These valves pass that test and more. I appreciate your musical expertise to improve the technical parts of the "hardware" so that when we apply the "software" everything works smoother. Jim Prindle ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:16:13 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Natural Tuning Neal, > > 1 TB is in tune > > 2 TB is in tune > > 3 TB is sharp by 1/3%, or 1/18th of a slide position > > 4 TB is in tune > > 5 TB is flat by over 1%, or 1/6th of a slide position > > 6 TB is in tune > > 7 TB is flat by over 2%, or 1/3th of a slide position > > 8 TB is in tune > > 9 TB is in tune > > 10 TB is flat by over 1%, or 1/6th of a slide position >I respectfully disagree on 6 and 9. They're not in tune. Consider: 1 to 3 >is >sharp. 2 to 6, and 3 to 9, sould also be sharp. It's the same frequency >ratio. OK, there are two major acoustical concepts here. One has to do with bell flair, and IÕll just say that the trombone looks shorter to higher frequencies than it does to lower frequencies. It has to do with the angle of dispersion, narrowing, as the frequency goes up. But as far as comparing equal temperament with the overtone series, it goes like this. If you compare frequencies derived from [2 to the (n/12) power] with frequencies derived from integer multiples of the fundamental, which IÕll call a frequency of 1, to make things easier (they both scale), you get the following: Partials Equal temperament ÒequivalentÓ Comment 1 1.000 in tune 2 2.000 in tune 3 2.997 off by 0.1% 4 4.000 in tune 5 5.040 off by 0.8% 6 5.993 off by 0.1% 7 7.127 off by 1.8% 8 8.000 in tune 9 8.980 off by 0.2% 10 10.079 off by 0.8% In this case the frequency equals the partial number, so frequencies are 1 Hz, 2 Hz, etc. Surely different trombones are going to vary slightly differently from the mathematical results, but any one horn is not necessarily representative of what another horn will do. And remember that a semitone, a whole slide position change, represents a frequency change of 5.9%. By all means, draw your own conclusions. DanP _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:54:25 +0100 From: Simon Bailey Subject: web-radio hi all, if anbody is interested in a great classical web-stream, i can only recommend www.di.fm/classical/ i've been listening to it for the past two days. very high quality music, no repeats which i have heard, and generally a great variation ni music. does anybody have any links to big-band/jazz/etc. online radio? greetings, simon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 05:52:08 -0800 From: David Guion Subject: Re: web-radio From: Simon Bailey Reply-To: Simon Bailey Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:54:25 +0100 >hi all, > >if anbody is interested in a great classical web-stream, i can only >recommend www.di.fm/classical/ > I stumbled onto another one last fall. One of the NPR stations here bills itself as a classical station, but most of the time when it's playing music at all, it's not classical. But then, as I say, I found a full-time classical station out of Chapel Hill, WCPE. It offers its services world wide by cable and the web at theclassicalstation.org. I haven't investigated web radio very much. Basically, I listen to radio mostly in the car. (Hmm. Will there ever be web streaming in the car?) But their advertisements brag about streaming in something like four different formats. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:33:09 EST From: Stephen Colley Subject: Intonation solutions Hey Folks, Yesterday, Matthew asked a question concerning Natural Tuning. The responses were quite impressive from a technical standpoint, but I would imagine that Matthew is now probably more confused than ever! Intonation is not something that is "measured and calculated". It can be, of course, but does that really produce better intonation? Just as one cannot explain the appeal of Rembrant's "The Falconer" or impart the emotional response to a Woodgrilled Bison Porterhouse Steak, intonation must be addressed with the faculty given to us appropriate to the task; our ears. I won a principal horn job in a regional orchestra whose pitch was...well...you know. My pitch was not steady enough to keep my section in line, so I went out and read everything I could to improve my pitch. The result is most likely what Matthew is feeling today. "Great. Lot's of facts. But how do I PLAY in tune?!" The result is TuneUp. I would like to throw the gauntlet down to any takers on how to develop intonation skills. If anyone would like to try TuneUp and report back to the list with an unbiased review, to quote Ross Perot, "I'm all ears!" Please contact me privately. In the meantime, David got it right: "Listen like crazy!" Stephen Colley www.tuneupsystems.com 804-852-8219 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:46:52 -0500 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? Whatever works best is right for you. There is no absolute right. Oh dear.have I strayed into questions of morality or secular humanism? Dave. Norbert Wegner wrote: > This posting is a follow on to the "Why non-transposing" post by me a week > or so ago. Thanks for your responses to this topic and happy new year to > all. > > This leads me to my follow-on question. What position is a high C on a Bb > trombone? 1st or 3rd? Most of you bass clef-ers out there will probably say > 3rd but I say it is 1st. When you play a note with the shortest length of > tubing on a Bb trombone you are playing a concert Bb. When you ask a > trumpet player (Bb horn typically) or a french horn player (F typically) or > an alto player (Eb) to play a C, they play it with open fingering since > their music is always transposed for them to the pitch of the horn. Open on > a Bb trumpet is equivalent to 1st position on a Bb trombone. If both are Bb > horns then both must be playing the same note which is a C for that horn or > a concert Bb. Just because bass clef trombone music is written in concert > pitch and not in the pitch of the horn, doesn't change the fact that the > shortest length of tubing makes a C for that horn. We just tell ourselves > that a C is 3rd position because it's less confusing. Does anyone out there > agree with me? In case you haven't guessed yet, I come from a brass band > background where trombone music is written in Bb and a C is 1st position. > I'd be interested to hear peoples views on this. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:35:35 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? I have always tried to use the slide position that required the least movement of the slide. Based on that C could be played, 1st, 3rd or 6th and a bunch of valve combos. If you know the harmonic structure, you can play as lot of alternate positions Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:42:42 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: JSO tour to USA From: "eliezer aharoni" > JSO is coming on tour to the USA > > Our schedule is: > > January 18 Naples Fla. > 19 W. Palm Beach > 20 Ft. Lauderdale > 21 Miamy Miamy? "I'll walk a million miles for one of your smiles, Miamy"? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:51:52 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? I half agree with you - High Concert C is in first position :-) Middle C is in 3rd, and low C in in 6th... However, every knowledgeable horn player or trumpet player will know that their "c" is not C at all (unless they are playing C trumpet) and when asked to play "c" will almost always ask "concert pitch?". If you were right, tuning an A in the orchestra, with Bb Trumpets, F Horns, and A clarinets would be a disaster. Even in your brass band, no one play's "c" to tune to - but Concert Bb of F or some such - an agreed upon pitch, which is concert pitch. Later, J.c. Sherman > This posting is a follow on to the "Why non-transposing" post by me a week > or so ago. Thanks for your responses to this topic and happy new year to > all. > > This leads me to my follow-on question. What position is a high C on a Bb > trombone? 1st or 3rd? Most of you bass clef-ers out there will probably say > 3rd but I say it is 1st. When you play a note with the shortest length of > tubing on a Bb trombone you are playing a concert Bb. When you ask a > trumpet player (Bb horn typically) or a french horn player (F typically) or > an alto player (Eb) to play a C, they play it with open fingering since > their music is always transposed for them to the pitch of the horn. Open on > a Bb trumpet is equivalent to 1st position on a Bb trombone. If both are Bb > horns then both must be playing the same note which is a C for that horn or > a concert Bb. Just because bass clef trombone music is written in concert > pitch and not in the pitch of the horn, doesn't change the fact that the > shortest length of tubing makes a C for that horn. We just tell ourselves > that a C is 3rd position because it's less confusing. Does anyone out there > agree with me? In case you haven't guessed yet, I come from a brass band > background where trombone music is written in Bb and a C is 1st position. > I'd be interested to hear peoples views on this. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:52:12 +0000 From: alan partis Subject: Re: web-radio Simon Bailey wrote: >if anbody is interested in a great classical web-stream, i can only >recommend www.di.fm/classical/ There's always www.beethoven.com which used to be WTMI in Miami. They went off the air about a year ago or so to cut costs and stream over the web. But what about jazz? When they were on the air, they also had one of the best jazz shows I've ever heard hosted by China Valles and Harry C. Sharp from midnight to 5:00am every night. Alas, they haven't kept that segment in their current incarnation. From "David H. Citron's South Florida Radio Pages" at http://www.univox.com/radio/ffg.html : "WTMI played jazz after midnight for a few decades. See several items about WTMI in the South Florida Radio History site. " "Remember when WTMI had all-night jazz, with China Valles and Harry Sharp? Gone when Cox bought the station!" ... see http://www.univox.com/radio/radioh.html for reference ... ______________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:04:38 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Natural Tuning From: "Neal Schermerhorn" > I respectfully disagree on 6 and 9. They're not in tune. Consider: 1 to 3 is > sharp. 2 to 6, and 3 to 9, sould also be sharp. It's the same frequency > ratio. 3, 6 and 12 are minutely sharp. 9 is minutely sharper than 3, 6 or 12. 15 is minutely less flat than 5 or 10. I reckon they're all useable, tho' as a bass 'bonist I rarely have occasion to go above 6. Whether or not I play Bb in 1st or 5th, or D in 1st or 4th depends on where my slide is just before I need to move it. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:06:51 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: contra bell ////cimbasso bell specs ///thayer //mouseville masher ysl695 hello listers dan oberloh in seattle is putting together contras and a cimbasso at his brass repair shop in seattle he tipped off bach accounting to the problems wwbw was having with aluminum valves and went into anodizing interludes and adventures with rebuilds plastic valves and 100 year old rotors turning bell tuning trumpets back into slide tuning etc basically the hard anodized al valves are good -fabricated brass //plated are good stainless etc but soft anodized and experimental plastic components suck totally anyway he is needing some ideas for bell specs -or a spun bell roughout- to build around into a cimbasso --- he says shires and edwards players keep him busy with slide tweeking /custom leadpipe threaded apapters and there is a small olds following out there he would also like to get hooked up with gary greenhoe --he has been using hagman valves ---he is a great guy and all his workers are[swingers ] happy for the day gig i recently ''won'' a yamaha ysl 695 off the bay for 2 bills it played real flat as in flattened --this came outa the magic kingdom magic ---as in my $$$$ dissappearing for it !!!!!! dumbo musta sat on the slide -----but the case looks real nice -- and the bell --the pics didnt look that bad --and i thought oh boy disney band so dan oberloh said --oh its nothing new inners outers slide bow and new venturi wont fix --- now how about a herald trumpet ?????? yeah that is the peace offering from the seller !!!!!!!!!!! we got a nice sunny day and i gotta send cones out now that i got a few in ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:28:48 EST From: Beldon Wade Subject: Re: web-radio Purdue University FM 101.5 plays classical 24 hours. WBAA (West Lafayette, Indiana) Purdue University AM 910 plays jazz 9:00 PM all nite. WBAA These are NPR stations. Check web site for NPR and get your site locations from there. beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:39:08 +0000 From: alan partis Subject: Re: Intonation solutions At 09:33 AM 01/07/2003, Stephen Colley wrote: >The result is TuneUp. > >I would like to throw the gauntlet down to any takers on how to develop >intonation skills. If anyone would like to try TuneUp and report back to the >list with an unbiased review, to quote Ross Perot, "I'm all ears!" Please >contact me privately. I'll take that challenge. I've also begun working with Brett Shuster from U of L in an effort to take my playing up a few notches -- he noted my intonation problems (which I've had for a couple decades for sure) and also recommended TuneUp. I'll keep y'all posted on the results. ______________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:01:15 -0800 From: Randy Fendrick Subject: Re: web-radio If you are looking for music on your computer from classical to jazz from Early Music to the Avant Guard then check out the web site www.publicradiofan.com This site lists all types of music and with the right software you just click on and your choice is almost endless. Later, Randy Fendrick Southside Chicago Seven Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 07:28 AM, Beldon Wade wrote: > Purdue University FM 101.5 plays classical 24 hours. WBAA (West > Lafayette, > Indiana) > > Purdue University AM 910 plays jazz 9:00 PM all nite. WBAA > > These are NPR stations. Check web site for NPR and get your site > locations > from there. > > beldon wade > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:59:33 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: boptism jazz duet books !!////bach 12 lt thanks !!!! for the huge box of bone duets !! i hit alum basketball game and sold a copy of I to band leader gave another away to girl in school to be a band teacher to share with trombone jazzers and the screech trumpet players wanted some --naturally !!! bruce got the extra bk III - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and we started woking[[ha ha workin] on the home cooking book dumbed down [supposedly] looks ez ---but still very challenging because of the feel ---- dude on one of the tunes you got a riff of after youve gone going against the saints ---what a kick !!!!!!!!i couldnt believe it !!!!!!!! i need to go thru it measure /phrase by phrase ------------ what i hope i can do is to finish off one of the jazz art drawings and use that for cover on the unbounds and take them to kinkos or ????? and get them slicked up and finished --i worked on them some at the itf in denton and the sketches got hit by the heavy rain that came down on the monday morning blues leaving bonetown -the drawinf holding faint memories of melodies scratches on an lp ----frosty morning windshield -------- the guy that bought the book was doc bough --low brass[tuba] instructor and marching saluki etc head ---siu carbondale he liked the layout and remarked about the font etc they were all asking who the publisher was so i hope you get some response from the seeds ----- i also plan on putting book I in boxes of mute cones that i am sending out soon !!!!!!!!!!!!! your writing is a bright light ---the duets work great for improv practice its not the range that is challenging but the changes and its very good well necessary to use alternate fingerings on the bone and have the modern tonality ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:15:04 -0500 From: "Peter W. Schroth" Subject: Natural Tuning May I add two points to this discussion: First, it isn't just that each trombone is unique. The amount of slide adjustment needed is related to the proportion of cylindrical and conical tubing, which (a) is different for larger instruments than for smaller instruments and (b) changes as the cylindrical part (the slide) is made longer. All Bach and Conn .547 trombones I have tried have first position Ds pretty well in tune, but I have never tried either a smaller bore or a bass trombone on which this was true. However, as you move the slide out, the necessary adjustments become more similar for different sizes of trombone. I haven't actually measured it, but fourth position B seems about as much shorter than fourth position G on all my Bb trombones, namely King 2B (small tenor), King 3B (medium tenor), Bach 42 (very large tenor, or maybe baritone) and Bach 50 (bass). Second, at least on small and medium tenors, I think it is not unusual for better players to tune the D in closed first position, so that first position Bb is out a bit (and F is out a bit more). This isn't just for slide vibrato: to play in tune with a group, and to tune to the particular chord, sometimes you need to sharpen the Bb too. This is especially true if the chord is G minor, where that "regular" Bb usually sounds too flat. It's easier to maintain the same tone quality if you adjust the pitch with the slide than if you do it with your lip. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:13:37 -0700 From: Phil Burton Subject: Re: web-radio I switch back and forth between the following internet streams...they daily offer great sounding Trombone styling of JJ, and others... http://www.kplu.org Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma WA. http://www.kcsm.org SFO Bay area http://www.kmhd.org Mt. Hood Community College, Portland OR. (very busy site, you often cannot get on) Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Fendrick" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] web-radio > If you are looking for music on your computer from classical to jazz > from Early Music to the Avant Guard then check out the web site > www.publicradiofan.com This site lists all types of music and with the > right software you just click on and your choice is almost endless. > > Later, > Randy Fendrick > Southside Chicago Seven > Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra > On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 07:28 AM, Beldon Wade wrote: > > > Purdue University FM 101.5 plays classical 24 hours. WBAA (West > > Lafayette, > > Indiana) > > > > Purdue University AM 910 plays jazz 9:00 PM all nite. WBAA > > > > These are NPR stations. Check web site for NPR and get your site > > locations > > from there. > > > > beldon wade > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:21:44 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? > This leads me to my follow-on question. What position is a high C on a Bb > trombone? 1st or 3rd? Most of you bass clef-ers out there will > probably say > 3rd but I say it is 1st. When you play a note with the shortest length of > tubing on a Bb trombone you are playing a concert Bb. When you ask a > trumpet player (Bb horn typically) or a french horn player (F > typically) or > an alto player (Eb) to play a C, they play it with open fingering since > their music is always transposed for them to the pitch of the > horn. Or 5th, or 6th ... if you've got the embouchure strength, it can be played in 2nd, 4th, and 7th, too. The timbre suffers when you force the 'bone to resonate in a non-preferred mode (for our engineer friends, not at a system eigenvalue), but if your chops are strong enough, it can be played. My bass responds equally well in 1st, 3rd, and 6th on that pitch. My small tenor (King 3B) responds well in 1st, 3rd, 5th, but the pitch is unstable in 6th. My all-purpose Bach 36 doesn't like that pitch in 1st position. Third and 5th are fine, but not 1st and 6th. As far as where should it be played? That depends on the instrument, the musician, and the passage in which the note occurs. If it's a technicial passage, play it in the position that minimizes changes in slide movement. If it's part of a held chordal structure, you have to consider matters of timbre and tuning more critically than minimizing changes in slide motion. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:22:09 -0600 From: NMHSTrombonePlyr Subject: Slide Lubricants What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might start up an interesting conversation. Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:42:34 EST From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Intonation solutions In a message dated 07/01/03 14:37:16 GMT Standard Time, TuneUp1@AOL.COM writes: > I would like to throw the gauntlet down to any takers on how to develop > intonation skills. If anyone would like to try TuneUp and report back to > the > list with an unbiased review, to quote Ross Perot, "I'm all ears!" ========================================= I never could resist a gauntlet... So, just to let everyone know, this tone deaf returner is taking the challenge. I'll get back to you with my experiences. Regards, Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:41:44 -0600 From: John Hinchey Subject: Trombone travel case/Burkle Hi all, I've just started my first road gig in many years and needed a travel case for my horn. I looked at the SKB Universal tenor but wasn't crazy about it. I followed Sam Burtis's advice and got an SKB golf case. Then I spoke to a couple of musicians who had be dinged for oversized bags by the airlines for the first time after touring for years. A trpt player friend has an anvil case for his double bag that was 2 lbs over and there were going to charge him $80 extra. The golf case is 50" x 14" x 13" which put it way over the 62" size limit. After looking around the internet a while I found the Smart IQ case. They make one that is 38 x 12 x 12 interior demensions, just right for my Dolly bag with some bubble wrap, trom stand, practice mute and a few sweat shirts. It is still a about 10" bigger the the 62"total demensions allowed by the airlines. But it's much closer insize to a regular trombone case. Fully packed it wieghs 38lbs, it has skate wheels to roll it in the airport, handles on the side and top. After 2 flights and several bus trips, the horn has arrived undamaged and no excess baggage charges. It cost $150 plus #$30 for shipping. If you want to check it out the link is: http://www.smartpak.com/index.asp About the Burkle, I bought the 30H Sam Burtis had for sale. At first I wasn't sure I was going to like it. I had to adjust my positions because of tuning differences between the 30H and more modern horns. After 3 months, I am really enjoying it. Great for the R&B/Rock thing, bright centered, quick response and surprisingly fat on the low end for a horn with a 7" bell. If I had the extra cash, I might just buy that 32H Sam has. By the way thanks Sam for the great advice on how to pack the horn inside the case Regards, John Hinchey Nashville, TN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:49:47 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but NMHSTrombonePlyr > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > start up an interesting conversation. > > Matthew Matt- You're obviously new to the list! This is a topic that has been bashed to death, but the usual responses are Slide-O-Mix or Trombotine. Some of the others have been the source of much debate, like the one that led to the banning of further discussions about the use of a certain furniture product (that rhymes with "edge"), and the obligatory old-timer longing for the days when you either used Pond's Cold Cream or spit. Check the archives at the Online Trombone Journal- www.trombone.org for more on this subject. For the record, I use Slide-O-Mix regular, but on my bass I use Trombotine (mostly because I'm trying to use it up, but if you do it right, THAT takes a really long time, about 8 years, and barely a dent in the tube...) To lubricate the player, I prefer Young's Oatmeal Stout... Walter Barrett "Most people hate the taste of beer to begin with. It is, however, a prejudice that many people have been able to overcome." -Winston Churchill Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:55:07 +0100 From: "Simon G. P. Bailey" Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 17:22, NMHSTrombonePlyr wrote: > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > start up an interesting conversation. slide-o-mix. i do have a tube of trombotine around here somewhere, but i find it gets sticky after a while... som however -- tap the slide, catch it in 7th. yup, i like it. *g* greetings, simon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:56:26 -0500 From: "Hector Bourg Jr." Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants ----- Original Message ----- From: "NMHSTrombonePlyr" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:22 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Slide Lubricants > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > start up an interesting conversation. > > Matthew Oh Matthew....WHAT have you DONE?!?!?!?! hb **************************************************************************** *** Hector "Butch" Bourg Jr. - Graphic and Web Design - Atlanta, GA **************************************************************************** *** Trombonist - Sentimental Journey Orchestra - http://www.thesjo.com ** NOW CELEBRATING TWENTY-SEVEN SWINGIN' YEARS ** **************************************************************************** *** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:07:20 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Intonation solutions I think all this analysis of the physics of playing in tune is a bit misleading and makes the ability to play in tune into something that many players consider somewhat unattainable...complicating the problem even further. PLAYING IN TUNE TAKE NOTHING MORE THAN LEARNING/KNOWING WHAT "IN TUNE" SOUNDS LIKE. That's it, nothing more. Mental instructions to oneself to lower the 6th partial or whatever just slow down the learning process. All intervals have a certain smoothness to them. The best way to start recognizing that smoothness is to play scales and arpeggios against a sustained pitch...not moving to the next pitch until you are satisfied that your contribution to the interval is perfectly balanced and blended. When things are in tune, you will experience a certain loss of your own individual sound and color due to your participation in the creation of a new sonic entity. A very good sounding electric keyboard is good for this. I like to amplify the sound source to make it easier to play with as full and rich a sound as possible (not necessarily loud, although this exercise should be performed at all volumes and ranges). Start with unisons, octaves, fifths, fourths, major thirds, major sixths, and work toward the narrower intervals and their inversions. Then go to the scales and arpeggios. If you can access the TRBN-L archives, check out my comments on how to use a twelve-window tuner to facilitate learning the sound of just intonation. Whatever you do, avoid using the academic knowledge you gain from your listening success to duplicate the success. Your success came from listening, you gained the knowledge by listening, the knowledge came after and because of the success. This should be an important clue to the fact that you succeeded without knowing how to do it. Thus, it seems reasonable to me to think that it not necessary to ever "know" how to do it. So forget about trying to figure out how to play in tune and concentrate on learning what it sounds like to play in tune. Never compromise or take any shortcuts. Simply listen your slide into the right spot for the context you are in. Remember this also because it is critical. The most important thing for good intonation is a great tone. The next important thing is good even balance. Next is blend, that is, brightening or darkening your tone to better match the context. Then, after all this, pitch. At this point the notes practically tune themselves. Always follow this priority when trying to solve any intonation problem. By the time you get to pitch you are already "listening like crazy." The most effective way to confound your attaining the ability to play in tune is to try and develop a list of rules to follow. Instead, trust your ears. You'll be surprised at what they already know. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Colley Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 7:33 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Intonation solutions Hey Folks, Yesterday, Matthew asked a question concerning Natural Tuning. The responses were quite impressive from a technical standpoint, but I would imagine that Matthew is now probably more confused than ever! Intonation is not something that is "measured and calculated". It can be, of course, but does that really produce better intonation? Just as one cannot explain the appeal of Rembrant's "The Falconer" or impart the emotional response to a Woodgrilled Bison Porterhouse Steak, intonation must be addressed with the faculty given to us appropriate to the task; our ears. I won a principal horn job in a regional orchestra whose pitch was...well...you know. My pitch was not steady enough to keep my section in line, so I went out and read everything I could to improve my pitch. The result is most likely what Matthew is feeling today. "Great. Lot's of facts. But how do I PLAY in tune?!" The result is TuneUp. I would like to throw the gauntlet down to any takers on how to develop intonation skills. If anyone would like to try TuneUp and report back to the list with an unbiased review, to quote Ross Perot, "I'm all ears!" Please contact me privately. In the meantime, David got it right: "Listen like crazy!" Stephen Colley www.tuneupsystems.com 804-852-8219 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:12:34 -0500 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants My favorite slide lubricant is "Slide-O-Grit" -- a mixture of petroleum based axle grease, course sand, glass shards, steel filings, pulverized granite and iron dust. Mix well and apply liberally. Then, spray with a solution of 1 part table salt, 1 part muriatic acid and 1 part toilet water. Now you're ready to rock! ---Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:10:56 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants I heard about a guy who tried Astro-Glide on his slide. I won't dare say anything beyond that. Adrian? J.c. > Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but NMHSTrombonePlyr > > > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > > start up an interesting conversation. > > > > Matthew > > Matt- > > You're obviously new to the list! This is a topic that has been bashed to > death, but the usual responses are Slide-O-Mix or Trombotine. Some of the > others have been the source of much debate, like the one that led to the > banning of further discussions about the use of a certain furniture product > (that rhymes with "edge"), and the obligatory old-timer longing for the days > when you either used Pond's Cold Cream or spit. Check the archives at the > Online Trombone Journal- www.trombone.org for more on this subject. > > For the record, I use Slide-O-Mix regular, but on my bass I use Trombotine > (mostly because I'm trying to use it up, but if you do it right, THAT takes > a really long time, about 8 years, and barely a dent in the tube...) > > To lubricate the player, I prefer Young's Oatmeal Stout... > > Walter Barrett > > "Most people hate the taste of beer to begin with. It is, however, a > prejudice that many people have been able to overcome." > -Winston Churchill > > > Yamaha Artist/Clinician > Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones > Euphonium > Bass Trumpet > Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:07:27 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Slide-O-Mix. No question. Different amounts for each ax, but always the same stuff. Trombotine is excellent too. Next best for me. I have some in case I have nothing at a gig... J.c. Sherman > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > start up an interesting conversation. > > Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:48:50 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together Can somebody clear up just what is the distinction/difference between OA Thayer valves and Edwards Thayers valves? Which one is used by Bach and Rath? Some of us folks is getting a tad confused. ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "sdlr" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 7:13 AM Subject: [TBN-L] putting a bass trombone together Gary, Thank you for clearing up the Edwards, Greenhoe, Shires history. It was not my intention to take sides with anyone with these posts. I have one of the best bass trombones ever made thanks to you and your staff. My whole intent with my posts is to help other players get the best horn they can. With my research over the last two years, I have found that your valves(Greenhoe) and O.A. Thayer valves are superior to the Thayer valves sold by Edwards on their horns. If someone wants Thayer valves, they should select those made in Oregon. If someone wants the best valves to build the best horn they can, I recommend as strongly as I can they use your valves. All my friends who have played them are blown away at how great they are and I can't tell you what a thrill it is to play my horn every time I pick it up. I was lucky enough to play a four hour gig on new years eve. I was called in as a sub at the last minute. What a pleasure it was to sight read that book and think of nothing but the music. No thoughts of setting yourself to play certain notes or figure out what the best way to play a note was to get the best sound or response from the horn. Whether I played an open horn, single trigger, or two triggers the horn just played itself. From the first note to the last it was nothing but pure pleasure. What more can I say. If any player out there is even thinking of converting a horn, it will be the best decision you can make. If you are looking at building or buying a new horn, start your research, make a date to play one of Gary's new horns, play some of the other custom options and get what fits you best. You will then have a horn made for you to the way you play and you will have a horn you can treasure for life. Best regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:53:58 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? I go along with this. To me that is the overall answer to the question. For me the position chosen for any note that has alternatives is based on the musical demands. For example Bb in fifth after a B in fourth for portamento legato. That kinda thang. ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe L. Norcross" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] What position is C on a Bb Trombone? > I have always tried to use the slide position that required the least > movement of the slide. Based on that C could be played, 1st, 3rd or 6th and > a bunch of valve combos. > If you know the harmonic structure, you can play as lot of alternate > positions > > Joe L. Norcross > Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds > Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band > Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band > joetuba@lightspeed.net > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:59:09 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Oh no, it's the slidomix thread! Aaaaaaaaaagh! Never tried Slide O Mix, some folk swear by it. I've got superslick, holton cream, and yamaha cream in various gig bags. Can't say I notice any real difference in effectiveness between them. They're probably all the same stuff in different packaging. The trick is, whatever you use, don't use too much. ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "NMHSTrombonePlyr" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 4:22 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Slide Lubricants > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > start up an interesting conversation. > > Matthew > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:32:22 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Intonation solutions >I think all this analysis of the physics of playing in tune is a bit >misleading and makes the ability to play in tune into something that >many players consider somewhat unattainable...complicating the problem >even further. PLAYING IN TUNE TAKE NOTHING MORE THAN LEARNING/KNOWING >WHAT "IN TUNE" SOUNDS LIKE. That's it, nothing more. I totally agree. The reason I did those calculations was actually for another project, so I already had them kicking around. But whatÕs great about them, from my perspective, is that they confirm that intonation can change by as much as 1/3 slide position, for some notes. Surely thatÕs all theyÕre good for, since playing in a natural SCALE also includes notes that donÕt show up in the first ten partials. And IÕll add that when they do show up, theyÕre, in general, quite out of tune, too. It was never my intention to give people a way to see intonation. In fact thatÕs one of my pet peeves, scientists trying to see what they can easily hear. On the other hand, several of us have mentioned listening to music, played in a natural scale, but so far no one has mentioned a great piece of music to listen to. Any suggestions? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:39:24 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Rapid Comfort by SOM. Was using superslick, but had to replace it daily on my 5 year old Yamaha bass. Rapid Comfort lasts for days. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: NMHSTrombonePlyr [mailto:NMHSTrombonePlyr@DDCI.NET] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:22 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Slide Lubricants What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might start up an interesting conversation. Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:45:29 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants I work on trombones. When I work on a slide, I do a little work and then I try the slide. Then I do a little more work and again try the slide. I can go through a tube of Trombotine in less than a year. And I switch off between them. IÕve used Slide-O-Mix, Superslick, cold cream, BiNaK and probably a few more. If you figure out how to use each of them, they all work well. I thought I was getting valve oil (BiNaK) running down my slide and mixing with my slide lube, so I started using BiNaK again, as a slide lube. It works OK. No matter which slide lube I use, there are moments when the slide is flawless but they pass. Perhaps the best slide lube is the one that gets the least dreadful, at its worst. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:48:31 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Though I use Rapid Comfort, one that is interesting to use with Trombotine (or any other cream) is the Hetman's Hydro-Slide Treatment. Put the Trombotine on, get the Hetmans' Hydro Slide applicator (a spray bottle with mixing lines; let's you choose how many parts water to Hydro treatment you want), fill to the appropriate water line, add Hyrdo treatment to water, shake, and spray on slide. If you like Trombotine, I would reccomend trying this (I would get the Hydro Slide Treatment and the Applicator due to the mixture lines). It makes the action a little smoother. You should be able to order these items through any Yamaha Dealer (Yamaha distributes all off Hetman's Lubricants). Enjoy! Chris Dearth ----- Original Message ----- From: "NMHSTrombonePlyr" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:22 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Slide Lubricants > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > start up an interesting conversation. > > Matthew > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:55:05 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together I wasn't aware Rath was using any type of Thayer valves. I thought they just used Hagmann Valves. ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. On 1/7/03 11:48 AM, "Keith Marr" wrote: > Can somebody clear up just what is the distinction/difference between OA > Thayer valves and Edwards Thayers valves? Which one is used by Bach and > Rath? Some of us folks is getting a tad confused. > > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sdlr" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 7:13 AM > Subject: [TBN-L] putting a bass trombone together > > > Gary, Thank you for clearing up the Edwards, Greenhoe, Shires history. It > was not my intention to take sides with anyone with these posts. > > I have one of the best bass trombones ever made thanks to you and your > staff. My whole intent with my posts is to help other players get the best > horn they can. With my research over the last two years, I have found that > your valves(Greenhoe) and O.A. Thayer valves are superior to the Thayer > valves sold by Edwards on their horns. If someone wants Thayer valves, they > should select those made in Oregon. > > If someone wants the best valves to build the best horn they can, I > recommend as strongly as I can they use your valves. All my friends who > have played them are blown away at how great they are and I can't tell you > what a thrill it is to play my horn every time I pick it up. I was lucky > enough to play a four hour gig on new years eve. I was called in as a sub > at the last minute. What a pleasure it was to sight read that book and > think of nothing but the music. No thoughts of setting yourself to play > certain notes or figure out what the best way to play a note was to get the > best sound or response from the horn. Whether I played an open horn, single > trigger, or two triggers the horn just played itself. From the first note > to the last it was nothing but pure pleasure. What more can I say. > > If any player out there is even thinking of converting a horn, it will be > the best decision you can make. If you are looking at building or buying a > new horn, start your research, make a date to play one of Gary's new horns, > play some of the other custom options and get what fits you best. You will > then have a horn made for you to the way you play and you will have a horn > you can treasure for life. > > Best regards, > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:55:08 EST From: Stephen Colley Subject: examples of fine intonation Just last night I was listening to Mahler 2nd/Mehta/Vienna in the last several movements. It is so incredibly striking when the brass have chords that "ring" with pure harmony. The chorale at the end of the Uhrlicht is one of the best examples I can think of and is the test of any brass section! Check out Chicago/Abbado of the same movement. Got to admit, Jay Friedman is pretty phenomenal, but it helps to have the Chicago Symphony low brass as your backup! Stephen Colley www.tuneupsystems.com 804-852-8219 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:05:51 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Trombone 4-tets and Re: Intonation solutions --- Steve Gamble wrote: > PLAYING IN TUNE TAKE NOTHING MORE THAN > LEARNING/KNOWING > WHAT "IN TUNE" SOUNDS LIKE. That's it, nothing more. Good post Steve. I'll add my 2 cents... Two things that helped my intonation immensely in college were: 1. playing Rochut in octaves with my teacher at the time, Per Brevig, who would stop, hold his pitch, and wait for me to find him every time I was not perfectly lined up, and 2. spending many hours playing in a trombone quartet. One of my strongest pieces of advice for young players is to form trombone quartets. Rehearse several times a week, start every rehearsal with Bach chorales, record yourselves with a system you can play back right away, and don't rest until your intonation and blend are as beautiful and resonant as you can possibly make them. Learn lots of music of all styles - there's lots of great transcriptions, and some great original music (but we need more, so ask composers to write for you) - and perform as often as you can. Go to chamber music competitions, play a recital at school every semester, give your group a name, take some photos, design a brochure, and get your name out as much as possible. The only reason nearly every artist manager has a brass quintet on the roster is that brass quintets worked hard to make it happen. Forty years ago there was no great brass quintet tradition, and now there is (although I have my issues with the nature of it as it exists now - another post maybe). Saxophone quartets have been doing it, and you see them in the chamber music publications and on the management rosters. With some concerted effort, we could make the same thing happen for the trombone quartet. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:11:10 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Intonation solutions "Remember this also because it is critical. The most important thing for good intonation is a great tone." Excellent point. As a bass player, I have been working on my lower range - trigger notes through pedals - and have made a noticeable improvement in both sound quality and flexibility. Along with those changes, I've noticed a change in intonation in the trigger range. I am finding that I have to play trigger D, Db, and C out further than before, but they do sound so much better. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Gamble [mailto:sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:07 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Intonation solutions I think all this analysis of the physics of playing in tune is a bit misleading and makes the ability to play in tune into something that many players consider somewhat unattainable...complicating the problem even further. PLAYING IN TUNE TAKE NOTHING MORE THAN LEARNING/KNOWING WHAT "IN TUNE" SOUNDS LIKE. That's it, nothing more. Mental instructions to oneself to lower the 6th partial or whatever just slow down the learning process. All intervals have a certain smoothness to them. The best way to start recognizing that smoothness is to play scales and arpeggios against a sustained pitch...not moving to the next pitch until you are satisfied that your contribution to the interval is perfectly balanced and blended. When things are in tune, you will experience a certain loss of your own individual sound and color due to your participation in the creation of a new sonic entity. A very good sounding electric keyboard is good for this. I like to amplify the sound source to make it easier to play with as full and rich a sound as possible (not necessarily loud, although this exercise should be performed at all volumes and ranges). Start with unisons, octaves, fifths, fourths, major thirds, major sixths, and work toward the narrower intervals and their inversions. Then go to the scales and arpeggios. If you can access the TRBN-L archives, check out my comments on how to use a twelve-window tuner to facilitate learning the sound of just intonation. Whatever you do, avoid using the academic knowledge you gain from your listening success to duplicate the success. Your success came from listening, you gained the knowledge by listening, the knowledge came after and because of the success. This should be an important clue to the fact that you succeeded without knowing how to do it. Thus, it seems reasonable to me to think that it not necessary to ever "know" how to do it. So forget about trying to figure out how to play in tune and concentrate on learning what it sounds like to play in tune. Never compromise or take any shortcuts. Simply listen your slide into the right spot for the context you are in. Remember this also because it is critical. The most important thing for good intonation is a great tone. The next important thing is good even balance. Next is blend, that is, brightening or darkening your tone to better match the context. Then, after all this, pitch. At this point the notes practically tune themselves. Always follow this priority when trying to solve any intonation problem. By the time you get to pitch you are already "listening like crazy." The most effective way to confound your attaining the ability to play in tune is to try and develop a list of rules to follow. Instead, trust your ears. You'll be surprised at what they already know. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Colley Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 7:33 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Intonation solutions Hey Folks, Yesterday, Matthew asked a question concerning Natural Tuning. The responses were quite impressive from a technical standpoint, but I would imagine that Matthew is now probably more confused than ever! Intonation is not something that is "measured and calculated". It can be, of course, but does that really produce better intonation? Just as one cannot explain the appeal of Rembrant's "The Falconer" or impart the emotional response to a Woodgrilled Bison Porterhouse Steak, intonation must be addressed with the faculty given to us appropriate to the task; our ears. I won a principal horn job in a regional orchestra whose pitch was...well...you know. My pitch was not steady enough to keep my section in line, so I went out and read everything I could to improve my pitch. The result is most likely what Matthew is feeling today. "Great. Lot's of facts. But how do I PLAY in tune?!" The result is TuneUp. I would like to throw the gauntlet down to any takers on how to develop intonation skills. If anyone would like to try TuneUp and report back to the list with an unbiased review, to quote Ross Perot, "I'm all ears!" Please contact me privately. In the meantime, David got it right: "Listen like crazy!" Stephen Colley www.tuneupsystems.com 804-852-8219 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:13:22 -0500 From: Stephen Troy Subject: Re: Intonation solutions >At 09:33 AM 01/07/2003, Stephen Colley wrote: >>The result is TuneUp. >> >>I would like to throw the gauntlet down to any takers on how to develop >>intonation skills. If anyone would like to try TuneUp and report back to the >>list with an unbiased review, to quote Ross Perot, "I'm all ears!" Please >>contact me privately. I tried TuneUp, and it did little for me. However, if you have a computer handy, this software is excellent for intonation training - best thing I ever found: http://www.codamusic.com/coda/it.asp Steve Troy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:33:56 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: web-radio It should be noted that KCSM is the last member-supported, commercial-free jazz station broadcasting nothing but jazz in most all forms 24 hours a day. They also do a "Noon-time CD Spotlight" where they'll play an entire CD of a featured artist from top to bottom without interruption. I believe it's aired weekdays at Noon (PST). {I'm partial 'cuz it's what I listen to on the way to gigs...} Daryl Burch www.radionoise.com At 09:13 AM 1/7/2003 -0700, Phil Burton wrote: >I switch back and forth between the following internet streams...they daily >offer great sounding Trombone styling of JJ, and others... > >http://www.kplu.org Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma WA. > >http://www.kcsm.org SFO Bay area > >http://www.kmhd.org Mt. Hood Community College, Portland OR. (very busy >site, you often cannot get on) > >Phil > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Randy Fendrick" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 9:01 AM >Subject: Re: [TBN-L] web-radio > > > > If you are looking for music on your computer from classical to jazz > > from Early Music to the Avant Guard then check out the web site > > www.publicradiofan.com This site lists all types of music and with the > > right software you just click on and your choice is almost endless. > > > > Later, > > Randy Fendrick > > Southside Chicago Seven > > Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra > > On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 07:28 AM, Beldon Wade wrote: > > > > > Purdue University FM 101.5 plays classical 24 hours. WBAA (West > > > Lafayette, > > > Indiana) > > > > > > Purdue University AM 910 plays jazz 9:00 PM all nite. WBAA > > > > > > These are NPR stations. Check web site for NPR and get your site > > > locations > > > from there. > > > > > > beldon wade > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:34:47 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Intonation solutions Hi Dan, For examples of great brass intonation check out (not in any particular order): San Francisco Symphony especially under Blomsted Older (70's early 80's) recordings of the Chicago Sym. These are especially good for understanding how balance and blend and uniformity of style contribute to good intonation. Later recordings of the Cleveland Orchestra under von Dohnanyi. Baltimore Symphony trombone section The Zinman recordings are great. Canadian Brass especially the earlier recordings Helsingborg Symphony recordings of the Berwald symphonies. This is a great example of how an alto, tenor, bass section can blend with the corresponding sections of the rest of the orchestra...phenomenal. Another incredible moment is the trumpet choral in Mahler #2 with NYP and Bernstein. I'll stop here. It's all classical stuff. That's what I listen to. If I had my CD collection in front me, this list could get pretty long. But a person listening to these examples should get the point. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:32 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Intonation solutions >I think all this analysis of the physics of playing in tune is a bit >misleading and makes the ability to play in tune into something that >many players consider somewhat unattainable...complicating the problem >even further. PLAYING IN TUNE TAKE NOTHING MORE THAN LEARNING/KNOWING >WHAT "IN TUNE" SOUNDS LIKE. That's it, nothing more. I totally agree. The reason I did those calculations was actually for another project, so I already had them kicking around. But what's great about them, from my perspective, is that they confirm that intonation can change by as much as 1/3 slide position, for some notes. Surely that's all they're good for, since playing in a natural SCALE also includes notes that don't show up in the first ten partials. And I'll add that when they do show up, they're, in general, quite out of tune, too. It was never my intention to give people a way to see intonation. In fact that's one of my pet peeves, scientists trying to see what they can easily hear. On the other hand, several of us have mentioned listening to music, played in a natural scale, but so far no one has mentioned a great piece of music to listen to. Any suggestions? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:45:31 -0600 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together Hi Keith, It's really difficult NOT to be confused with the various Thayer valves circulating. I don't claim to be an expert on who used what and when, but I can tell you this... Ed Thayer is just about the kindest, most brilliant person I've ever met. He and his wife Barbara have given so much to the trombone community for decades, it is mind boggling. What I can surmise from my relationship with Ed over the past 15 years that I've known and worked with him: He has been a very trusting soul...a true gentleman..idealistic, dedicated to problem solving and innovation...an absolute joy to work with and know. He apparently has not had the best legal consul. He has (in my opinion) been the victim of numerous parties that haven't served Ed's best interests. Ed personally has developed several versions of his valve over the years, the current one being the culmination of all of his expertise. There are also versions made by Getzen, when Ed Thayer and I were developing the Edwards trombones. This was a nickel plated brass rotor. Ed then went on to develop an aluminum hard coated version that seems to be the only aluminum Thayer valve that stands up to corrosive acids well. Shires tried to copy that design with severe consequences. Getzen and Shires still use brass rotors to the best of my knowledge. Bach has purchased Thayer valves from Thayer International, the company that barred Ed from making his own valve. I believe Shires has had a license from Thayer International to build his valves until the patent expired. Gary -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Keith Marr Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 10:49 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] putting a bass trombone together Can somebody clear up just what is the distinction/difference between OA Thayer valves and Edwards Thayers valves? Which one is used by Bach and Rath? Some of us folks is getting a tad confused. ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "sdlr" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 7:13 AM Subject: [TBN-L] putting a bass trombone together Gary, Thank you for clearing up the Edwards, Greenhoe, Shires history. It was not my intention to take sides with anyone with these posts. I have one of the best bass trombones ever made thanks to you and your staff. My whole intent with my posts is to help other players get the best horn they can. With my research over the last two years, I have found that your valves(Greenhoe) and O.A. Thayer valves are superior to the Thayer valves sold by Edwards on their horns. If someone wants Thayer valves, they should select those made in Oregon. If someone wants the best valves to build the best horn they can, I recommend as strongly as I can they use your valves. All my friends who have played them are blown away at how great they are and I can't tell you what a thrill it is to play my horn every time I pick it up. I was lucky enough to play a four hour gig on new years eve. I was called in as a sub at the last minute. What a pleasure it was to sight read that book and think of nothing but the music. No thoughts of setting yourself to play certain notes or figure out what the best way to play a note was to get the best sound or response from the horn. Whether I played an open horn, single trigger, or two triggers the horn just played itself. From the first note to the last it was nothing but pure pleasure. What more can I say. If any player out there is even thinking of converting a horn, it will be the best decision you can make. If you are looking at building or buying a new horn, start your research, make a date to play one of Gary's new horns, play some of the other custom options and get what fits you best. You will then have a horn made for you to the way you play and you will have a horn you can treasure for life. Best regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:40:50 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants From: "NMHSTrombonePlyr" > What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might > start up an interesting conversation. Never use them. Jus' play ev'rything in 1st. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:59:50 -0600 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: Trombone 4-tets and Re: Intonation solutions <<< -Forty years ago there was no great brass quintet tradition, and now there is >>> Really now! I must have been blowing smoke.....there were all kinds of brass quintets when I grew up. My brother David organized a brass quintet when we were kids...at Interlochen much of my education was derived from serious quintet playing, Walter Hartley and Thom Ritter George actually wrote music on our behalf. At Eastman not only were there incredible trombone choirs thanks to Emory...but a plethora of brass quintets including the faculty brass quintet including Donald Knaub, Ed Betts...Dan Patrilak, Sid Mears, Cherry Beauregard...my brother...Verne Reynolds...Jim Morris...on and on. Let's no forget the music of the Chicago Symphony brass either. This has gone on forever. What changed things was the CB. That's when it went public...not behind closed doors. That's when good money could be made.....with a show. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:48:27 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Overture 1812 Greetings to all. Does anyone out there know of an arrangement for brass choir of the Tchaikovsky Overture 1812? Thanks much. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:54:37 EST From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Trombone 4-tets and Re: Intonation solutions << . . . Forty years ago there was no great brass quintet tradition, and now there is >> I'm sorry, but that's just not true. There's a long, unbroken line of brass ensembles, including quintets, dating back centuries. I understand some of the wags on the list will argue the composition of the instruments used, but I've used the term 'brass' for the sake of brevity. All The Best, Mike Suter PrimeSlide Design The National Slide Quartet Slidewerke ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:59:51 -0700 From: bldrbrs Subject: London Brass charts Dear list, I received a very nice response to my inquiry about London Brass / PJBE charts from David Sabourin, owner of Tapestry Music. He assured me that LB charts are still available through him. www.tapestrymusic.com Sorry for any confusion I may have created. Best, Michael Allen Boulder Brass bldrbrs@attbi.com www.boulderbrass.com Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium University of Colorado at Boulder michael.allen@colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:12:19 -0800 From: Tony C Subject: Inquiry I need a good piece for 4 trombones and band. Grade 4 would be ideal. Any suggestions? Is the piece available? Publisher, if known. Thanks. Tony Clements ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:43:39 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: web-radio Here's a site for finding out what is playing on public radio stations across the country: http://www.publicradiofan.com/ Richard Corliss ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:51:55 -0600 From: "Isaac J. Roorda" Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Sounds like it should work particularly well in fast technical passages. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck De Paolo" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Slide Lubricants > My favorite slide lubricant is "Slide-O-Grit" -- a mixture of petroleum > based axle grease, course sand, glass shards, steel filings, pulverized > granite and iron dust. Mix well and apply liberally. Then, spray with a > solution of 1 part table salt, 1 part muriatic acid and 1 part toilet water. > Now you're ready to rock! > > ---Chuck > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:06:39 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together At 01:45 PM 1/7/2003 -0600, Gary Greenhoe wrote: >the current one being the culmination of all of his expertise. There are >also versions made by Getzen, when Ed Thayer and I were developing the >Edwards trombones. This was a nickel plated brass rotor. Ed then went on to >develop an aluminum hard coated version that seems to be the only aluminum >Thayer valve that stands up to corrosive acids well. Shires tried to copy >that design with severe consequences. Getzen and Shires still use brass >rotors to the best of my knowledge. Gary- Ed's current valves are aluminum with anodized teflon coating, is that correct? I would like to echo Gary's comments RE Ed and Barbara Thayer and their travails and contributions to the trombone world. They both seem to be of the upper crust of humble, marvelous folks. I wish them much success with their latest incarnation of the valve. Also just FYI, for anybody keeping score, I have been using aluminum coated valves built by Ed and Barbara's former partner, Nydigger (because he was the only guy making the valves at the time) for about three years (Nydigger took Ed's aluminum design after the court case or some such craziness) and aside from needing a lot of oil, they have worked fine, no complaints. The early runs of these valves had problems with the anodized coating, but they got that figured out. However, the problem I did have to fix with one of the valves was a not completely flat top plate that was allowing some air to leak out from under the screw rim. Todd Clontz made a new screw ring for me on his magic lathe and designed a rubber gasket to go under it so that there is no possibility of leakage (a leaky thayer valve will drive you slowly insane and you will never even know it...). Gary, hoping to finally toot on one of your horns at the ETW '03 in March in DC, will there be one there? ~Randy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:11:28 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Natural Tuning At 3:04 PM +0000 1/7/03, Adrian Drover wrote: >3, 6 and 12 are minutely sharp. 9 is minutely sharper than 3, 6 or 12. 15 >is minutely less flat than 5 or 10. I reckon they're all useable, tho' as a >bass 'bonist I rarely have occasion to go above 6. Whether or not I play Bb >in 1st or 5th, or D in 1st or 4th depends on where my slide is just before I >need to move it. E, I, E, I, Oooooo. :-) -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:21:25 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants >What kinds of slide lubricants do ya'll prefer? I thought this might >start up an interesting conversation. > >Matthew ========================================== Uh oh. I warned you guys about what might happen when we started talkin' slide positions... and now THIS. (headin' fer cover with mah Slide-o-Mix!!!!) :-) Wayne -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 18:54:45 -0600 From: "Michael B. McCreless" Subject: slide lubricants Slide lubricants? I wondered why my right arm was stronger than my left. I always said it took a man to get from 1st to 7th. Michael McCreless ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:58:57 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? Norbert, all. > > This leads me to my follow-on question. What > position is a high C on a Bb > trombone? 1st or 3rd? Well, it's in both places. In fact C (3rd space C Treble Clef/3 spaces above the staff Tenor Clef/etc) Can be played in 1st, 3rd, sharp 5th, & 6th. I usually play my C in 1st, & find that the Bb a whole step lower is better in tune & locks better for me, in 3rd! But the higher up the harmonic series the more positions are available. Just a scant perfect 4th up (F concert) can be played in EVERY position. Tom ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:10:39 -0600 From: Norbert Wegner Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? See nw> below -----Original Message----- From: thetubameister@att.net [mailto:thetubameister@att.net] Sent: January 7, 2003 8:52 AM To: Norbert Wegner Cc: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] What position is C on a Bb Trombone? I half agree with you - High Concert C is in first position :-) Middle C is in 3rd, and low C in in 6th... However, every knowledgeable horn player or trumpet player will know that their "c" is not C at all (unless they are playing C trumpet) and when asked to play "c" will almost always ask "concert pitch?". nw> And if the answer is no, then they'll play open position which is a nw> concert Bb on a Bb trumpet or a concert F on an F horn. This same logic nw> must hold true for trombones too then since brass is brass and physics nw> is physics. If you ask me to play a C on my Bb trombone and I ask: nw> "concert pitch?" and you say no ... then I play a concert Bb which is nw> 1st position and a C on my Bb trombone. Brass is brass isn't it? If you were right, tuning an A in the orchestra, with Bb Trumpets, F Horns, and A clarinets would be a disaster. Even in your brass band, no one play's "c" to tune to - but Concert Bb of F or some such - an agreed upon pitch, which is concert pitch. nw> As long as you say concert pitch then I agree that everyone's talking the nw> same language. It's non-concert pitch that's got me all riled up:-) Later, J.c. Sherman > This posting is a follow on to the "Why non-transposing" post by me a week > or so ago. Thanks for your responses to this topic and happy new year to > all. > > This leads me to my follow-on question. What position is a high C on a Bb > trombone? 1st or 3rd? Most of you bass clef-ers out there will probably say > 3rd but I say it is 1st. When you play a note with the shortest length of > tubing on a Bb trombone you are playing a concert Bb. When you ask a > trumpet player (Bb horn typically) or a french horn player (F typically) or > an alto player (Eb) to play a C, they play it with open fingering since > their music is always transposed for them to the pitch of the horn. Open on > a Bb trumpet is equivalent to 1st position on a Bb trombone. If both are Bb > horns then both must be playing the same note which is a C for that horn or > a concert Bb. Just because bass clef trombone music is written in concert > pitch and not in the pitch of the horn, doesn't change the fact that the > shortest length of tubing makes a C for that horn. We just tell ourselves > that a C is 3rd position because it's less confusing. Does anyone out there > agree with me? In case you haven't guessed yet, I come from a brass band > background where trombone music is written in Bb and a C is 1st position. > I'd be interested to hear peoples views on this. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:29:47 -0600 From: Norbert Wegner Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? All, I think maybe my question isn't clear enough. I'm not talking about alternate slide positions, I'm asking the philisophical question "what is C?". I'm saying that concert Bb is really a C on the Bb trombone (i.e. 1st position, let's talk low C to avoid alternate position discussion) since it is a Bb instrument. This is the same concept as a Bb trumpet player playing open position (concert Bb) when you ask for a non-concert pitch C or an F horn player playing open position (concert F) when you ask for a non concert C. In their minds they know (or they may not) that they're really playing a concert Bb or concert F but instrument pitch C on all brass instruments is played with the shortest tube length. Can anyone dispute my logic on this? Norbert -----Original Message----- From: Tom Izzo [mailto:contrabasstrombone@yahoo.com] > > This leads me to my follow-on question. What > position is a high C on a Bb > trombone? 1st or 3rd? Well, it's in both places. In fact C (3rd space C Treble Clef/3 spaces above the staff Tenor Clef/etc) Can be played in 1st, 3rd, sharp 5th, & 6th. I usually play my C in 1st, & find that the Bb a whole step lower is better in tune & locks better for me, in 3rd! But the higher up the harmonic series the more positions are available. Just a scant perfect 4th up (F concert) can be played in EVERY position. Tom ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 01:16:57 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? I got some follow up questions (hey it's late, I just got back from a bum gig and I've had a beer or three! - Indulge me here!): Where does your fist go when you open your hand? Where does your lap go when you stand up? What position is C on a Gb didgeridoo? What position do missionary's prefer? plus a couple for Doug Yeo: What position is C on a serpent? What's the serpent's position on the fruit of knowledge question? Was he framed? Maybe I've seen too many films noir, but I reckon that broad Eve was the behind it all . . . never trust a Dame! Only interested! ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Izzo" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] What position is C on a Bb Trombone? > Norbert, all. > > > > This leads me to my follow-on question. What position is a high C on a Bb > > trombone? 1st or 3rd? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:45:47 -0600 From: Scott Moore Subject: Re: Trombone travel case/Burkle With all this talk about cases for travel, you may want to consider what I do. I place my horn in its gig bag with a bit of bubble wrap to keep it still, and place it in a Skyline Mirage Display Case (http://www.skylineexhibitsusa.com/showroom/4_4mirag.htm) with additional bubble wrap around the gig bag. After many, many flights over the past seven years I have never had any trouble. No additional charges, and the wheels are nice. Yours, Scott On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 10:41 AM, John Hinchey wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just started my first road gig in many years and needed a travel > case for my horn. > I looked at the SKB Universal tenor but wasn't crazy about it. I > followed Sam Burtis's > advice and got an SKB golf case. Then I spoke to a couple of musicians > who had be > dinged for oversized bags by the airlines for the first time after > touring for years. A trpt > player friend has an anvil case for his double bag that was 2 lbs over > and there were going > to charge him $80 extra. The golf case is 50" x 14" x 13" which put it > way over the 62" > size limit. D. Scott Moore, Bass Trombone Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College phone: 507-933-6260 email: down8ve@hickorytech.net http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:55:59 -0500 From: Steve Beck Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? From: "Norbert Wegner"> > I think maybe my question isn't clear enough. I'm not talking about > alternate slide positions, I'm asking the philisophical question "what is > C?". Funny, that is what I thought you meant. I didn't both replying because, as you go on to say "In their minds they know" And that is what this is - head games. You refer to something as "Instrument C." Suppose I decide my trombone is a transposing Eb instrument? Heck, it is since I can read Alto sax music by adding three flats and pretending it is bass clef. Now I play "instrument" Eb in the open position, and everyone else in the world is mistaken when they call it a Bb. >>>Can anyone dispute my logic on this? Sorry, you have to exibit some first. Playing Bb treble, or inventing a clever music notation system of your own does nothing to change the "fact" that a non transposing instrument will play concert pitch notes - and name them as such; Trumpet players, and trumpet player wannabees aside. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:53:57 -0500 From: Harlan Feinstein Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? Norbert> [...] In their minds Norbert> they know (or they may not) that they're really playing a Norbert> concert Bb or concert F but instrument pitch C on all brass Norbert> instruments is played with the shortest tube length. Can Norbert> anyone dispute my logic on this? Easily; I'm not sure what your point is, but it's not always the case that a brass instrument's C is the lowest note with the shortest tube length. Take the standard double horn (F/Bb). Shortest tube length would be the open note on the Bb side, and the lowest open note would be the instrument's 3-ledger-line F. --Harlan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:03:15 -0600 From: Pat & Jo McFarland Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? Same here. I'll even play it in 5th position depending how things lay (slurs, etc...). Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Dyess" To: Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] What position is C on a Bb Trombone? > At 9:59 PM -0600 1/6/03, Norbert Wegner wrote: > >What position is a high C on a Bb trombone? 1st or 3rd? > > >Most of you bass clef-ers out there will probably say 3rd but I say it is 1st. > ----snip-----> > > > Uh oh. Better run fer cover, thar, Norbert. This jess might git a bit deep. > > Both C's speak for me about equally well, and I have no difficulty in > getting them. Therefore, I let the approach (or departure) dictate > which position I'll use. By blowing a bit differently, I can get > slightly different timbres from each, too. That can also effect my > decision. > > So for this ole boy, it's about six of one or half a dozen of the other. > > Make sense Kimo-Sabe? > Wayne-o-san > -- > ========================= > Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music > Lamar University Music Department > P. O. Box 10044 > Beaumont, Texas 77710 > 409-880-8146 > FAX: 409-880-8143 > dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu > http://www.lamar.edu > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:28:59 -0600 From: Michael Cryer Subject: Slide O Mix I have been told that Slide O Mix can crystalize and corrode your slide tubes over a long period of time. Has anyone known this to be true? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:31:51 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? hey norbi if i ask for a bagel does it come plain or is it onion with cream cheese ???????? will that be a large ??????? norboooooooooooooooooo' nor bot you mind is going to pot !!!!!! neither nor bott fly left field ---------------------gimme a c gimme another c now gimme another c --------------- whatta got ?????????????????????????? --------- BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBb Norbert Wegner wrote: > All, > > I think maybe my question isn't clear enough. I'm not talking about > alternate slide positions, I'm asking the philisophical question "what is > C?". I'm saying that concert Bb is really a C on the Bb trombone (i.e. 1st > position, let's talk low C to avoid alternate position discussion) since it > is a Bb instrument. This is the same concept as a Bb trumpet player playing > open position (concert Bb) when you ask for a non-concert pitch C or an F > horn player playing open position (concert F) when you ask for a non concert > C. In their minds they know (or they may not) that they're really playing a > concert Bb or concert F but instrument pitch C on all brass instruments is > played with the shortest tube length. Can anyone dispute my logic on this? > > Norbert > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Izzo [mailto:contrabasstrombone@yahoo.com] > > > > This leads me to my follow-on question. What > > position is a high C on a Bb > > trombone? 1st or 3rd? > > Well, it's in both places. In fact C (3rd space C > Treble Clef/3 spaces above the staff Tenor Clef/etc) > Can be played in 1st, 3rd, sharp 5th, & 6th. > I usually play my C in 1st, & find that the Bb a whole > step lower is better in tune & locks better for me, in > 3rd! > > But the higher up the harmonic series the more > positions are available. Just a scant perfect 4th up > (F concert) can be played in EVERY position. > > Tom > > ===== > Tom Izzo > Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire > Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra > Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, > Electric Bass, Percussion > http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ > (630) 983-1985 > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 22:09:18 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Trombone travel case/Burkle Skyline has offices in many cities, they have one here in Baltimore, and you can go over there and eyeball the Mirage case for yourself. They cost more than an SKB (I think they are around 300.00 now) but everybody who uses them says the same thing: never any problems. And tarmac thieves won't be interested in a silly display case. ~Randy Campora At 07:45 PM 1/7/2003 -0600, Scott Moore wrote: >With all this talk about cases for travel, you may want to consider >what I do. I place my horn in its gig bag with a bit of bubble wrap to >keep it still, and place it in a Skyline Mirage Display Case >(http://www.skylineexhibitsusa.com/showroom/4_4mirag.htm) with >additional bubble wrap around the gig bag. > >After many, many flights over the past seven years I have never had any >trouble. No additional charges, and the wheels are nice. > >Yours, > >Scott > >On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 10:41 AM, John Hinchey wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >>I've just started my first road gig in many years and needed a travel >>case for my horn. >>I looked at the SKB Universal tenor but wasn't crazy about it. I >>followed Sam Burtis's >>advice and got an SKB golf case. Then I spoke to a couple of musicians >>who had be >>dinged for oversized bags by the airlines for the first time after >>touring for years. A trpt >>player friend has an anvil case for his double bag that was 2 lbs over >>and there were going >>to charge him $80 extra. The golf case is 50" x 14" x 13" which put it >>way over the 62" >>size limit. > >D. Scott Moore, Bass Trombone >Music Department >Gustavus Adolphus College >phone: 507-933-6260 >email: down8ve@hickorytech.net >http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:19:19 -0500 From: Jerry Lapham Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? In <200301070600.h07600X25911@po.missouri.edu>, on 01/07/03 at 12:00 AM, Automatic digest processor said: > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:59:23 -0600 > From: Norbert Wegner > Subject: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? > Just > because bass clef trombone music is written in concert pitch and not in > the pitch of the horn, doesn't change the fact that the shortest length > of tubing makes a C for that horn. We just tell ourselves that a C is > 3rd position because it's less confusing. Why does this remind me of the joke about "if you called the tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" :-) -Jerry -- ============================================================ Jerry Lapham, Monroe, OH E-Mail: rjlapham@infinet.com Written Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 07:19 PM (EST) ============================================================ MR/2 Ice tag: Sexual battery is what you put in a vibrator. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:26:28 EST From: Dansatt@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Trombone travel case/Burkle I've had nothing but good luck with my Skyline case. Hundreds of flight segments, and never any damage to an instrument. I have a piece of foam on the bottom, and I put the gig bag in the case bell first. There's an opening in the inside of the lid of the case into which the small end of the gig bag fits, sort of suspending the gig bag in the case. The case is looking well-traveled on the outside, one of the wheels is a little crooked, but it still works great. Mine is battleship gray, but a friend recently bought one in black, which is pretty good looking. It's size is MUCH less attention-getting than an SKB golf case, and even loaded with a horn in a form fitting hard case, some shoes, and a couple of large notebooks full of music, it comes in well under the weight limit, which I hear may be lowered to 50 lbs. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:03:37 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together Gary Greenhoe wrote: > Bach has purchased Thayer valves from Thayer International, the company that > barred Ed from making his own valve. Oops! Gary, you got that backwards. Thayer Valve International is Ed Thayer's company. I have been dealing with He and Barb for years. The "other guy" , a former partner of Ed's, has O.E. Thayer Company and his name's not Thayer at all. Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:14:52 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together Randy Campora wrote: > Ed's current valves are aluminum with anodized teflon coating, is that correct? Randy, No, it is aluminum oxide coating, according to literature from Ed. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:23:43 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Chris Dearth wrote: > Though I use Rapid Comfort........ OK, I'll bite. What the heck is Rapid Comfort? In all the years I've been on this list, it hasn't been mentioned until today. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:22:50 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together Thanks for the info. Are there any metalurgists/chemist who can tell us about aluminum oxide vs teflon coating? ~Randy At 11:14 PM 1/7/2003 -0600, Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: >Randy Campora wrote: > > > Ed's current valves are aluminum with anodized teflon coating, is that > correct? > >Randy, > >No, it is aluminum oxide coating, according to literature from Ed. > >Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:25:33 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: About Burkle (was re: [TBN-L] 7H proportions) On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, sabutin wrote: > I don't know Mr. Rusk, nor where to send the pastries. Ah, Mr. Rusk designed the Getzen G-50 tuba, puts together the odd trombone now and then, and makes tubas from scratch--or York & Holton corpses as the case may be. Somewhere in his queue is an F-to-be York he is crafting for me. Bob was the first person to take BBb Yorks and Holtons and improve them into CCs. His work has been copied but not improved. Those who put off studying with Arnold Jacobs until too late, should really look him up. He studied with Mr. Jacobs for over 30 years. > P.S. Tait was another trombone soloist from around the same time, I > believe. Mr. Rusk says Tait was in San Francisco and is also the reason for the "Frisco Model." Conn was quite interested, apparently, in increasing his market share in California. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:29:04 -0500 From: JB Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants It's the new one-bottle slide-o-mix. Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: >Chris Dearth wrote: > > > >>Though I use Rapid Comfort........ >> >> > >OK, I'll bite. What the heck is Rapid Comfort? In all the years I've been on >this list, it hasn't been mentioned until today. > >Eric > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:39:31 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Slide Lubricants Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: >OK, I'll bite. What the heck is Rapid Comfort? JB wrote: > It's the new one-bottle slide-o-mix. > > Oh, that's a relief. From the name, I was afraid it was a laxative or something. Eric ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 6 Jan 2003 to 7 Jan 2003 (#2003-7) *************************************************************