Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Jan 2003 to 6 Jan 2003 (#2003-6) Date: Tuesday, January 7, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 43 messages totalling 1725 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. bass trombone mouthpiece (2) 2. Test-Checking Listserver Problem 3. Intonation 4. didgeridoo - word origin 5. Army Blues Opening? 6. Testing 7. Tut, tut! 8. [TROMBONE-L] - a little more--corrections (3) 9. Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) (2) 10. Attn: LA area trombonists: Fwd: Steve Huffsteter Band 11. OTJ Classifieds Update - 01/06/2003 12. Washington Symphonic Brass Concert (2) 13. Trombone-L Update: system is working 14. About Burkle (was re: [TBN-L] 7H proportions) (3) 15. Yamaha Clip on Mike 16. London Brass / PJBE 17. Natural Tuning (8) 18. Tuba part 19. Lisa, get away from that jazz man! (3) 20. putting a bass trombone together (2) 21. JSO tour to USA 22. Madrid Bass Trombonist 23. JEBB in Haag 24. Music shop recommendations 25. What position is C on a Bb Trombone? (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 02:06:09 -0600 From: Charles Levine Subject: bass trombone mouthpiece If you are looking for (or not looking) a bass bone mouthpiece, I URGE = you to try (you can return it) a PRIME SLIDE DESIGN mouthpiece (Brasswind and Woodwind has them). = Everyone I know, myself included, that tried them, switched over! They are quite pricey, but well worth it if it is good for you. Mike Suter designed it. It feels great from the very first blow and gets = better! They offer various size screw rims and various cup depths. A3 = seems to be a moderate size for most . charlie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 06:33:16 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L Subject: Test-Checking Listserver Problem Sometime during the evening of January 4, 2003, the listserv computer at the University of Missouri/Columbia experienced a software problem. The MU computer services staff is working on the issue, and if you have attempted to post to the list over the past 12 hours, your post may or may not have gone through. Updates will be posted as they are available. LM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:08:18 -0500 From: "David A. Schwartz" Subject: Re: Intonation Stephen Colley wrote: >Subject: Intonation/TuneUp Reminder > >For all you orchestral players out there, any thoughts on what low brass >section plays in-tune the best these days? Recordings to recommend? > >Reminder: TuneUp is on sale until the 15th at the website! > >Stephen Colley >www.tuneupsystems.com >804-852-8219 After attending a Stephen Colley's very useful clinic a year ago at Osmun Music, I began daily practice of scales and arpeggios in "pure harmony," with a CD-R of synthesized scales with bent pitches. For major scales alone, the recording forces me to play each note, depending on the context, at five different pitches, with the adjustments varying from zero to 16 cents (16 percent of a semi-tone). The minor seventh pitch bend is more dramatic, at 29 cents. As with the old method books, I repeat each scale, so the slide position patterns are learned by the muscles and become almost automatic. I think this pure harmony practice is worthwhile, helping me to play better in the section. Has anyone on the list tried this kind of pure harmony practice, assisted by bent-pitch synthesized scales and arpeggios? Does anyone want to swap pure harmony exercises and recordings? David David A. Schwartz Belmont, Massachusetts http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:37:05 -0500 From: "don.fitzsimons" Subject: didgeridoo - word origin Since some forum contributors have mentioned their didgeridoo skills, I thought that this recent paragraph in World Wide Words might interest them: 4. Weird Words: Didgeridoo ------------------------------------------------------------------- An Australian Aboriginal musical instrument. What could be more Australian than the droning sound of this native instrument? Yet there's a linguistic mystery about it. Firstly, the name isn't recorded in Australian English until 1919, astonishingly late. And it isn't Aboriginal - native names include "yidali", "illpera" and "bombo", but nothing that sounds even vaguely like "didgeridoo". Lexicographers have traditionally got round this by saying it is imitative, but "didgeridoo" bears scant relation to the noise the instrument makes. Now Dymphna Lonergan, currently working on a PhD thesis about the Irish influence on Australian English, may have solved the problem. Her theory appeared in Australian newspapers six months ago, and is reported in more detail in the current issue of Ozwords, published by the Australian National Dictionary Centre. She points to a possible Irish source in two words "dœdaire" and "dubh". Gaelic spelling is in a class by itself: the words are actually said rather like "doodjerreh" and "doo". The first means "trumpeter"; the second means "black". Put them together (adjective following noun in Gaelic) and you get a phrase that means "black trumpeter" and which sounds remarkably like the instrument's name. -------------------------------------------------------------------- World Wide Words is copyright (c) Michael Quinion 2003. All rights reserved. The Words Web site is at . ------------------------------------------------------------------- You may reproduce this newsletter in whole or in part in other free media online provided that you include this note and the copyright notice above. Reproduction in print media or on Web sites requires prior permission: contact . ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:41:00 -0600 From: Bart Roberts Subject: Army Blues Opening? So which chair is Open in the Blues? Just curious. Thanks Bart Roberts ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:15:39 -0500 From: Bill Redgate Subject: Testing Sorry to bother y'all, but since I haven't received ANY mail from the list all day - I thought I'd check to make sure everything was still working right! This is strange! Thanks for your tolerance ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:08:08 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Tut, tut! At 1:49 PM +0000 12/26/02, Adrian Drover wrote: >OK, own up, who didn't practice yesterday? Yesterday??? How's about all last week???? Just back from a tremendous trip to Michigan where daughter Kimi met an internet friend (now "boyfriend") and wife Lynda and I celebrated not only New Year's eve in Detroit -- but also our 31st wedding anniversary as well. Life is good! :-) W P.S. But I didn't get a whit of face time... :-( -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:26:57 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L] - a little more--corrections At 5:17 PM +0000 12/29/02, Adrian Drover wrote: >From: > >Re: << Nah, humor's not allowed on this list. Humour's OK tho'. > >> Shouldn't that be "Drouver" then? > > >No my name's really Adrian Yeo-Izzo-Waage-Dyess-Suter, but I changed it less >I was suspected of being the list troll. Not only that, but everyone fell >on the floor in uncontrollable convulsions whenever I announced myself. > >A. Cousin Bubba -- is thet YOU????!!!!!?????? Long-lost. Where ya be????? Man, oh man. Cousin Dyess -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:38:28 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L] - a little more--corrections At 12:15 AM -0500 12/30/02, MikeSuter@AOL.COM wrote: ><< Yeo-Izzo-Waage-Dyess-Suter >> > >Darn!! Last chair again! > >Mikey Bill Yeah, Mikey. Let's issue a CHALLENGE!!!! :-) Cousin Wayne -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:07:02 EST From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L] - a little more--corrections In a message dated 1/5/03 6:53:15 PM, dyessjw@HAL.LAMAR.EDU writes: << At 12:15 AM -0500 12/30/02, MikeSuter@AOL.COM wrote: <> to which Uncle Wayne answered: <> Oh great. Then I'd be 6th chair. Mikey Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:56:58 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) At 11:14 AM -0500 1/3/03, Randy Campora wrote: >Modern big band playing is about as much fun as a bass trombonist can have >on this planet, I think. I thought that, too, until I had the good fortune to play my first gig with the Brass Band of Battle Creek. Now THAT was fun. Orchestral excerpts, great original music for band, jazz, and yes -- even a tune or two for the gray hairs in the audience. I loved it. Something for everyone. Big band playing is fun, too, of course. I also rather enjoyed my time in the Navy Band. Yes, we had our standard repertoire that got the audience pumped (mostly patriotic)... but we also played for the band from time to time, too. I lived for those moments. Like in my symphony playing... who wants all those rests that seem to spill over from page after page? But when we play -- we tend to shine. Destruction of a noble profession? I would hope not. I've always enjoyed playing, no matter what the style of music. It can be a real trip to be in an atmosphere where the audience is really enjoying what you play. Even if it is "Proud Mary" for the upteenth time, or "Bolero", or "In the Mood". Heck. "New York, New York" can be fun if the crowd is appreciative. Just gotta love it. Keep a positive attitude. As a teacher, I'll take the kid with the great attitude everytime over the prima dona who hates playing for the crowd. (Something like that). :-) Wayne -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:10:31 -0800 From: Les Benedict Subject: Attn: LA area trombonists: Fwd: Steve Huffsteter Band Fellow trombonists in the Los Angeles area: Following is an announcement of a terrific band, the trombonists in which are: Jack Redmond (of the Les Brown band for many years), myself (Les Benedict), Jock Ellis and Morris Repass.The performance is at the Jazz Bakery in Culver City, January 6, two sets at 8 PM and 9:30 PM. >Dear fellow-musicians, > I want to let you in on one of the best kept secrets in the jazz world. >Tomorrow night at the Jazz Bakery, you have the rare chance to listen to the >composing and arranging of Steve Huffsteter. Steve is well-known as a >wonderful jazz trumpet soloist and section player, but few of us are aware of >his talents as a writer. Besides playing in my jazz orchestra, Steve plays in >the bands of Bob Florence, Clare Fischer, Mike Barone and many others. > I suggest you come down to the Jazz Bakery tomorrow (Monday, January 6) >night to hear the Steve Huffsteter Big Band. First set starts at 8 PM. Come >down and be amazed at his great skill, flair, and yes, genius as a composer, >orchestrator and arranger. > See you there. >All the best, >KIM Richmond >My website address is: >http://members.aol.com/JazzKim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:34:50 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 01/06/2003 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 5:33 AM CST on January 6, 2003. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris Waage ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:40:36 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Washington Symphonic Brass Concert Milt Stevens sent this over to me, for all DC/VA/MD trombonists and brass enthusiasts. This is a really fine group of players, arrangements are done by Phil Snedecor, a trumpet player and leader of the group. They have some self produced CDs and have a Nielsen CD on Summit Records. ~Randy ---------------- To all lovers of great music expertly played by the professional Washington Symphonic Brass: The eagerly awaited concert program "The Planets and Beyond" will be performed three times during January. Please help support our concerts and please forward this attachment and information to other interested music lovers. The program will feature four movements from The Planets by Gustav Holst: Mars, Saturn, Uranus, and Jupiter. Hear Star Wars by John Williams, The Perfect Fool by Holst, Stardust by Hoagy Carmichael played by horn soloist Marty Hackleman, Angels by Carl Ruggles, and Don Giovanni's Ride to Hell by Jan Koetsier played by tuba soloist Robinson Love. Tickets, which can be purchased at the door, are only $20 for adults and $10 for students. The three locations and dates are: Sunday, January 12, 2003 at 3:00 p.m. at Saint Luke Catholic Church; McLean, VA Tuesday, January 14, 2003 at 7:00 p.m. at St. Anne's Episcopal Church; Annapolis, MD Sunday, January 19, 2003 at 7:30 p.m. at National Presbyterian Church; Washington, DC Milt Stevens miltstevens@cox.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:03:30 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L Subject: Trombone-L Update: system is working Sometime after 12:00 midnight CST 04 January, 2003, the trombone-l listserv computer went off-line. At approximately 9:00 a.m. CST 05 January, 2003, the system was restarted by the University of Missouri Computer Services. The system should be back to normal function at this point. LM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:47:42 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Washington Symphonic Brass Concert They will also be performing at this year's ITG conference @ TCU in Fort Worth, TX. 7:30pm on Wednesday, May 21, 2003. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:56:40 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: About Burkle (was re: [TBN-L] 7H proportions) >Thanks Gary, > >Its great to receive such a prompt and knowledgeable response! You are right >that this horn was not well thought out - especially in terms of the way it >fits in with the rest of the Conn line. The one I have is so close, overall, >to an 8H with a .522 slide - but the differences are most frustrating. In >addition to the longer cork barrels and resulting distance to first >position, the slide/bell connection does not relate to the 8H, making slides >between the two horns non-interchangeable. Also - although the tuning slide >is only 1mm tighter, the distance across the tuning slide is just different >enough to prohibit exchanging tuning slides. And to top it off, the main >bell brace is 50mm higher (also on the gooseneck), making an interchangeable >bell set-up more complicated. But it is a nice-playing instrument. I am >pondering having the slide/bell connector changed to an 8H set up if I can >get parts. As an aside, switching from my 6H to 8H is easy, because these >hand-slide dimensions are all the same. > >I guess that this shows the current Conn wisdom of offering the 88H with a >variety of bore sizes and bell alloys, but all under the 88H umbrella. I >think .525/.547 is as small as they go, though. > >Question: Who is Burkle? (Have I missed someone important?) > >Thanks again, > >Carl Lenthe >www.indiana.edu/~trombone ============================ Hi Carl...how goes it? Jake Burkle worked for Conn from the late 1800s right on into the 1950s, I have been told. There doesn't seem to be much information available about him, but I have heard that he was mostly involved in trombone manufacturing and design, and was a proponent of slide tuning instruments and dual bores. When those styles of trombone went OUT of style...late '40s, early '50s...he produced two bell tuning designs that are called Burkle models...the 30H and the 32H...that apparently were attempts to produce a bell tuning small bore horn that had some of the playing characteristics of slide tuning instruments. They were not wildly successful commercially, although there are enough left to indicate that they had a fair amount of sales for a while. I know Jack Teagarden played a 30H for a number of years, and Both Bill Reichenbach and myself use or used a 32H for a great deal of tenor work. The 30H was a .485/.509 bore, the 32H a .500/.522 to the best of my knowledge. Both had the extended barrels you mention on the 7H. (I have no idea why...Conn barrels varied widely from the '20s right through the '60s, and on many older small bore Conns the barrels are so short that it is easy [and painful!!!] to get the meat of the palm of your left hand caught between the slide and the barrel as you come into 1st position.) They also had tapered inner tubes on the tuning slide...apparently an attempt to get as much conical tubing as possible in order to approximate the constant taper of a slide tuning bell. There are a number of classic '30s Conn slide tuning dual bore instruments...the 14H, 76H (.522/.547) and one of the iterations of the 70H (.547/.565) that I think are among the finest playing trombones ever produced, and I suspect Burkle had a hand in designing them as well. If anyone is interested in a good 32H, I have one for sale. I find them to be particularly good instruments for any kind of small trombone work that requires power...strong big bands, latin or rock/pop work. They center up and play in the high register like a good 6H, only much more open. When I got mine (after playing Bill Reichenbach's), it immediately put my fine Williams 6 in the case for lead playing in bands like Chico O'Farrill's or latin gigs, and I only stopped playing it after Steve Shires made me a .500 bore that was almost as open as the 32H. For info on this 32H (not mine...it belongs to Lewis Kahn, who has so many fine old Conn horns he has no room in his apartment to live), please go to and check it out. Later... Sam Burtis P.S. If anyone has any info on Jake Burkle, I would love to know more about him. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 08:56:32 -0800 From: Elisabeth Frederick Subject: Yamaha Clip on Mike Hello List, Happy New Year!! I haven't been able to find my notes from the ITF in Texas and was wondering....Harry Watters recommended a yamaha clip on mike, which he was using, and I wanted to look into getting it. So, if anyone knows what model number it is that would be great!! Thanks!! Elisabeth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:37:00 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: About Burkle (was re: [TBN-L] 7H proportions) On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, sabutin wrote: > Jake Burkle worked for Conn from the late 1800s right on into the > 1950s, I have been told. There doesn't seem to be much information > available about him, but I have heard that he was mostly involved in > trombone manufacturing and design, and was a proponent of slide > tuning instruments and dual bores. Mr. Greenhoe's former colleague Mr. Rusk knows something about Burkle, and some of "his men" who do body and fender work on horns worked with Burkle back in the Old Days. I understand a box of good pastries from the Polish bakery in Elkhart will get one a lot of information. We know who Beitel, Fuchs and Alloo were. But who was Tait? Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:51:40 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: About Burkle (was re: [TBN-L] 7H proportions) >On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, sabutin wrote: > >> Jake Burkle worked for Conn from the late 1800s right on into the >> 1950s, I have been told. There doesn't seem to be much information >> available about him, but I have heard that he was mostly involved in >> trombone manufacturing and design, and was a proponent of slide >> tuning instruments and dual bores. > >Mr. Greenhoe's former colleague Mr. Rusk knows something about Burkle, and >some of "his men" who do body and fender work on horns worked with Burkle >back in the Old Days. I understand a box of good pastries from the Polish >bakery in Elkhart will get one a lot of information. > >We know who Beitel, Fuchs and Alloo were. But who was Tait? > >Carole Nowicke >cnowicke@indiana.edu =============== I don't know Mr. Rusk, nor where to send the pastries. Any hints, anybody? S. P.S. Tait was another trombone soloist from around the same time, I believe. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:09:23 -0500 From: John Boblett Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) Here, Here! Being an amateur bass trombonist can be a great experience! I play regularly with two big bands and they have been excellent experiences. My reading has improved & my ability to play the figurations encountered with this idiom has served to improve my playing with the other group of which I am a member, the Ohio Valley British Brass Band. This later group has been the best experience I have ever had. I can agree whole-heartedly with Wayne on his observations. While I would enjoy playing from the orchestral repertoire the opportunity for the amateur is quite limited. I have found that playing in both the big band and brass band have given me the opportunities I need and want to be able to continue to express one of the gifts (talents) with which I have been blessed. I would strongly encourage amateurs to seek out these opportunities in their areas. They do exist. If they don't maybe you can be a catalyst to get something going that will benefit not only yourself but others as well. John Boblett -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Dyess Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:57 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) At 11:14 AM -0500 1/3/03, Randy Campora wrote: >Modern big band playing is about as much fun as a bass trombonist can have >on this planet, I think. I thought that, too, until I had the good fortune to play my first gig with the Brass Band of Battle Creek. Now THAT was fun. Orchestral excerpts, great original music for band, jazz, and yes -- even a tune or two for the gray hairs in the audience. I loved it. Something for everyone. Big band playing is fun, too, of course. I also rather enjoyed my time in the Navy Band. Yes, we had our standard repertoire that got the audience pumped (mostly patriotic)... but we also played for the band from time to time, too. I lived for those moments. Like in my symphony playing... who wants all those rests that seem to spill over from page after page? But when we play -- we tend to shine. Destruction of a noble profession? I would hope not. I've always enjoyed playing, no matter what the style of music. It can be a real trip to be in an atmosphere where the audience is really enjoying what you play. Even if it is "Proud Mary" for the upteenth time, or "Bolero", or "In the Mood". Heck. "New York, New York" can be fun if the crowd is appreciative. Just gotta love it. Keep a positive attitude. As a teacher, I'll take the kid with the great attitude everytime over the prima dona who hates playing for the crowd. (Something like that). :-) Wayne -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:14:52 -0700 From: bldrbrs Subject: London Brass / PJBE Hello all, Tapestry Music in Vancouver used to carry Brass Wind Publications (PJBE / London Brass charts). Anyone know how to find this stuff now the Tapestry has stopped carrying it? Michael Allen Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium University of Colorado at Boulder (303) 492-5261 michael.allen@colorado.edu -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of jimandcat@JUNO.COM Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 10:20 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] The Full Monty In Sweden Oops. I'm guilty of spreading the rumor that was told to me. I called a few people and checked out what I had heard. The trombone player who got a bundle for being onstage was in the opera "The Love of Three Oranges". During one scene, the bass trombone player comes up from the pit and stands frontstage and plays an idiotic fanfare (mostly pedal Bbs) for about 10 minutes while some crazily costumed singer (tenor or bass) circles around him singing absurdly. (It is a surreal opera.) The player demanded and got double scale (about $350). Likewise, the fully made up and costumed trumpet players onstage in "Aida" got double scale, mostly because they had to show up 2 hours early for each show for full body makeup and stay almost an hour after to get it off. (They are onstage in basically a loincloth and an Egyptian headdress and body paint.) In the musical theater scale, if you go onstage in costume/makeup as part of the play the scale here is only an additional 10%, about $11-15. But in the past, the contractor has occasionally gotten them 25 to 50% extra as "overtime" for any costuming or makeup. If they don't go into costume or makeup, it is the same scale as in the pit. Jim Prindle ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:07:05 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: bass trombone mouthpiece > If you are looking for (or not looking) a bass bone mouthpiece, I > URGE you to try (you can return it) a > PRIME SLIDE DESIGN mouthpiece (Brasswind and Woodwind has them). > Everyone I know, myself included, that tried them, switched over! > They are quite pricey, but well worth it if it is good for you. > > Mike Suter designed it. It feels great from the very first blow and > gets better! They offer various size screw rims and various cup > depths. A3 seems to be a moderate size for most . > > charlie You must really love this mouthpiece because you posted a message with the same content a week ago. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:36:22 -0600 From: NMHSTrombonePlyr Subject: Natural Tuning I am just wondering what notes are naturaly out of tune, like I know that the slide must be moved down to play high E natural in tune. Are there other notes like this? Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:02:19 -0500 From: JB Subject: Re: Natural Tuning Most notes are naturally out of tune from the average position. High F with the slide all the way in is sharp, so you must move out the slide. The D below that is flat, so if you play it in first, assuming when you have the slide all the way in, a Bb is in tune, it must be lipped up. D above middle Cin 4th needs to be moved out. Really, it's a study of partials. For example, since the F in 4th must be moved in, the Ab in first is drastically flat, so much so that it is an unusable note, and the G is in a very sharp 2nd. The D in fourth is on the same partial as the E that you refer to, assuming your referring to the 2 ledger-line E, is on the same partial as the D, so you must move the slide out for that as well. There are certain guidelines, but the best guide would be to get to know your horn, either by listening, or with a tuner, to get an idea of where the notes fall for the combination of you, your horn, and your mouthpiece. NMHSTrombonePlyr wrote: > I am just wondering what notes are naturaly out of tune, like I know > that the slide must be moved down to play high E natural in tune. Are > there other notes like this? > > Matthew > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:04:00 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Natural Tuning >I am just wondering what notes are naturaly out of tune, like I know >that the slide must be moved down to play high E natural in tune. Are >there other notes like this? > >Matthew Oh my goodness, yes. You need to find the overtone series somewhere on the internet or in a book somewhere. I wish I had the time. Basically, if you go from pedal Bb -- this is your reference point called the fundamental. Get it in tune with the group you are playing with or with a tuner. Then you'll reference all your other notes from that. All Bb's should be in tune if you are doing things right with the embouchure. Pinch in the upper register, however, and even the high Bb will be out of tune. Play each note possible in 1st position... 1. Pedal Bb - reference tone and in tune 2. Bb in the staff -- should be in tune 3. F -- slightly sharp (out a tad) 4. Bb on top of the staff and should be in tune 5. D - on most horns, will be a flat note (in, in, in) 6. F - usually sharp and needs slight adjustment (out) 7. Ab -- so very flat that most of us play it in 3rd to get it in tune. (in 3rd position, high Ab is actually the 8th note up and in tune) 8. Bb -- if not pinching -- in tune. The observant and mathematically inclined trombonist will note that the numbers 1, 2, 4, and 8 above are all Bb's and should all be in tune. Ain't that special? The odd numbers are a little ... well, odd. 3 and 6 (double the number, get it?) are both somewhat sharp. 5 and 7 are mostly flat, with the lucky 7 being VERY much so. That's really all there is to remember -- times 7, of course. The exception is the 7th partial. We CAN and do play those in the "out" positions. Being masterful players, we trombonists have the ability to play with the tuning slide in our hands at all times. Therefore, we can raise the G in 2nd (7th note up from low pedal A), and the F# in 3rd (7th note up from low pedal Ab)... and get them in tune. How neat is THAT??? Some jazz players (like Urbie Green) will tune their Bb out a bit so they have the slide room available in 1st to tune the D while using a slide vibrato. Also cool, but it takes quite a bit of practice to master this. I wouldn't advise it until you are secure the other way first. OK.. the cents and specifics aren't there. But the basic ideas are. You should be able to play along with someone at the piano, or with a friend, and play reasonable well in tune if you know which notes have "problems". Always use your ear and always listen. It doesn't get any easier. Best wishes from Texas! Wayne Dyess -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:35:04 EST From: Brothertimmy@AOL.COM Subject: Tuba part Hey, Anybody know where I can get a copy of the tuba part for Thad Jones' "Dedication"? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:35:44 -0800 From: David Guion Subject: Re: Natural Tuning ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Wayne Dyess Reply-To: Wayne Dyess Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:04:00 -0600 >>I am just wondering what notes are naturaly out of tune, like I know >>that the slide must be moved down to play high E natural in tune. Are >>there other notes like this? >> >>Matthew > > >Oh my goodness, yes. You need to find the overtone series somewhere >on the internet or in a book somewhere. I wish I had the time. > (snip) >OK.. the cents and specifics aren't there. But the basic ideas are. >You should be able to play along with someone at the piano, or with a >friend, and play reasonable well in tune if you know which notes have >"problems". Always use your ear and always listen. It doesn't get >any easier. > And it really ain't even that easy! Wayne's instructions are spot on for equal temperament. It's what you have to do if you are playing with a piano. Alas, if you are playing with an orchestra or band or trombone quartet, you will want to tune the harmonies more nearly in just intonation. What that means, basically, is that all of the major thirds have to be smaller intervals than they are on the piano and all the minor thirds have to be larger. A "C", for example, in one chord is not exactly the same as a "C" in another chord--even if it is a common tone in two adjacent chords. Intonation is not an easy matter to explain, and certainly not in writing. If you don't have a teacher who can work through it with you, find one. That and listening like crazy are your only hope. But once you get the knack, you'll be able to play better in tune than any other wind instrument. In the mean time, don't be afraid of it. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:27:21 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Natural Tuning At 3:04 PM -0600 1/6/03, Wayne Dyess wrote: Matthew: I forgot to point out in my post that we are going from the lowest note UP in the following scheme of things. I wish I could post a graphic, but LM says no (big grin). Bb pedal, next note available is Bb in the staff, next up is F in the staff, then Bb on top of the staff, then D, F, Ab (ugh), and finally the high Bb 4 ledger lines up. Visualize that one? I hope so! WD ================================ > >Play each note possible in 1st position... > >1. Pedal Bb - reference tone and in tune >2. Bb in the staff -- should be in tune >3. F -- slightly sharp (out a tad) >4. Bb on top of the staff and should be in tune >5. D - on most horns, will be a flat note (in, in, in) >6. F - usually sharp and needs slight adjustment (out) >7. Ab -- so very flat that most of us play it in 3rd to get it in tune. > (in 3rd position, high Ab is actually the 8th note up and in tune) >8. Bb -- if not pinching -- in tune. -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:39:00 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Natural Tuning At 1:35 PM -0800 1/6/03, David Guion wrote: >And it really ain't even that easy! Wayne's instructions are spot on >for equal temperament. It's what you have to do if you are playing >with a piano. Alas, if you are playing with an orchestra or band or >trombone quartet, you will want to tune the harmonies more nearly in >just intonation. What that means, basically, is that all of the >major thirds have to be smaller intervals than they are on the piano >and all the minor thirds have to be larger. A "C", for example, in >one chord is not exactly the same as a "C" in another chord--even if >it is a common tone in two adjacent chords. > >Intonation is not an easy matter to explain, and certainly not in >writing. If you don't have a teacher who can work through it with >you, find one. That and listening like crazy are your only hope. But >once you get the knack, you'll be able to play better in tune than >any other wind instrument. In the mean time, don't be afraid of it. well.... I did say to LISTEN. I just forgot to say "listen and ADJUST". :-) Wayne -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:41:10 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Natural Tuning LetÕs seeÉI had it somewhereÉ Putting it in terms of slide positions, a semitone is a move of one slide position. And a semitone is a change in frequency of almost 6%. So hereÕs a table of pitches in equal temperament vs. partials. Partial/compared with =temp 1 TB is in tune 2 TB is in tune 3 TB is sharp by 1/3%, or 1/18th of a slide position 4 TB is in tune 5 TB is flat by over 1%, or 1/6th of a slide position 6 TB is in tune 7 TB is flat by over 2%, or 1/3th of a slide position 8 TB is in tune 9 TB is in tune 10 TB is flat by over 1%, or 1/6th of a slide position By now you are probably lipping notes all over the place, so slide positions mean a whole lot less, up here, anyway. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:48:17 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Lisa, get away from that jazz man! I¶m just watching a rerun of The Simpsons. It¶s the one where Lisa is really depressed and hears this haunting saxophone sound coming from outside her window. She grabs her horn and bolts out, saying, ¸I gotta find that sound!· She then finds a street musician named Bleedin¶ Gums Murphy who teaches her a bit about the blues. Haven¶t we all had moments like that, where we hear a sound that we just gotta find? I¶ll share mine: Countless trombone players have switched to the bass trombone after hearing George Roberts, but my moment came at Indiana University while listening to my teacher Edwin Anderson play Rochut studies down two octaves and sounding just as smooth and lyrical as you could imagine. ¸Man, I gotta find that sound!· And I¶m happily still trying. ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:54:08 -0800 From: sdlr Subject: putting a bass trombone together Jim, I am sorry if I gave Shires the short end of the stick. I have = only played one of his horns and it didn't work for me. My thoughts are = the same as yours, go see him and get a horn that fits your particular = needs. I am aware that Steve was with Edwards and did a bunch of work for them = prior to his setting up his own shop. With fine musicians such as = yourself playing his horns, he must make very good horns or he would be = out of business. The whole idea behind my posting(also see" putting a bass together "in = the discussion group) is to help guys/gals get the best they can however = that is. Accepting inferior products from instrument makers because = they don't want to change or it might cost a couple of more dollars to = make it right should not be the norm anymore. If we as players start = demanding quality and accepting nothing but the best we'll get what we = want or the manufacturers will choke on their unsold inventory and cart = it away in their model T's. A good example is slides. Why should we accept crappy slides on new = horns from any maker? Take any Bach slide and hold it to the light and = look at the ripples. With todays technology this is unacceptable. The = same goes for Edwards/Getzen. When someone is selling a Edwards slide = they may comment "this is a good Edwards slide". The only reason they = would say that is there are a lot of "not good" Edwards slides out = there. Again, hold it to the light(both inner and outer slides) and if = you see ripples in the metal, don't accept it. If you want to see what = a good slide looks like for comparison, find a friend who has a Shires = or new King 2B. They are straight as an arrow with no ripples and when = held up to the light, they are beautiful. Why should a manufacturer like Edwards even ship poor slides. They get = a great amount of money for their slides. The only answer is that they = have no pride in what they produce and they have midiocre standards, yet = they charge one of the highest prices in the world for their product. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: jimandcat@juno.com=20 To: sdlr@EARTHLINK.NET=20 Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:08 AM Subject: Bass Trombone stuff Glad you found a horn that works for you. I think you gave Shires = short shrift though. Are you aware that he was the original maker of the = Edwards trombones? After he left, they continued to produce what he = designed, but, he was not the guy making the slides or the bells that = made them famous. Consequently, they are only cheap (but pricey) = imitations of his work.=20 When I decided on a Shires it was after trying Edwards basses that = some symphonic players I know have, trying Shires combinations that were = available in LA and going to Shires in Mass. and trying several bells = (my research helped me pick the valves, Greenhoes, in advance as well as = the dual bore slide). I hate the sound of double thayer valves on basses, I love the sound = of single thayer valves on tenors. I did a lot of research on Edwards, = Yamaha, Holton, Shires and Rath and for myself picked Shires with a = double dependent Greenhoe valve system, red brass bell (soldered rim), = yellow brass tuning slide (B) and hand slide (nickle end slide bow) and = yellow brass 2.5 leadpipe. I play on a Jeff Reynolds mouthpiece (which = is actually a copy of a Minick L, with a few changes).=20 Steve Shires bells are fantastic, but you have to pick the one out of = about 20 variations of material (yellow, gold, red brass) and varying = thicknesses (thinner toward the flare, or thicker, or thinner in the = bell throat, more Conn-like, or Bach-like, or Holton-like, which is = really a redder brass copy of Conn). The only way to do that is go to = him with the kind of music you play and let him listen and advise you. = His ears and mind are fantastic. You tell him (and play for him) the = kind of music you want to do, he is great about picking the combination = (out of 10-20 bells, several leadpipes, tuning slides of various = material) that you are looking for. At the end, he sent me two bell sections, 4 leadpipes, and the slide = (his are the best, ask anybody) to try to find what I wanted. I picked = what I wanted after several weeks of experimenting and sent him back the = stuff i didn't want. BTW, I am a professional player, IOW playing and teaching is my only = occupation and has been for many years.=20 I am attaching some of the research I did when studying the Shires = trombones. Jim Prindle San Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 04:19:14 +0300 From: eliezer aharoni Subject: JSO tour to USA Hi listers, JSO is coming on tour to the USA Our schedule is: January 18 Naples Fla. 19 W. Palm Beach 20 Ft. Lauderdale 21 Miamy 22 Sarasota 23 Gainsville 25 Daytona 28 Carnegy Hall NY 29 Wilmington 30 Philadelphia February 1 Greenville, N.Y 2. Avrey Fischer Hall N.Y 3. Baltimore Anybody interested to contact me on tour, please e-mail. Best wishes Eliezer Aharoni Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 Phone ++972 2 5341333 Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we use a Macintosh computer and in some cases can not convert them. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 04:26:38 +0300 From: eliezer aharoni Subject: Madrid Bass Trombonist Hi listers, Does anybody have the name and phone/E-mail of the bass trombone player in the Orchestra of Madrid? Prior to our USA tours, JSo will visit Spain (Murcia, Valencia, Madrid, Saragosa). Best wishes Eliezer Aharoni Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 Phone ++972 2 5341333 Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we use a Macintosh computer and in some cases can not convert them. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 01:13:21 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Lisa, get away from that jazz man! I heard Steve Torre play with McCoy Tyner and walked out of that concert knowing that my next instrument was going to be a trombone. In all, itÕs been a strange learning curve, for me. IÕve played the blues on guitar, for at least 50 years. Guitars are designed to allow you to easily play equal temperament and to bend strings, with some effort. Trombone allows you to play slurs easily, but somehow, I spend my time trying to play equal temperament. But on several occasions, IÕve found myself trying to exactly copy Aritha FranklinÕs slurs and grace notes. I was just doing that, moments ago. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 02:49:42 +0100 From: Anders Carlsson Subject: JEBB in Haag Mainly for listers in the Netherlands: I'm playing with the Janne Ersson Big Band in the newly opened Jazz club pannonica http://www.pannonica.nl/ in Haag this weekend. If anyone is interested in teaching me about the local beers afterwards just come up and say hi. /Anders Carlsson Gothenburg Sweden ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:06:04 -0600 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Re: Lisa, get away from that jazz man! Dale and list: First off... the Simpsons episode where Lisa meets Bleedin' Gums Murphy is a high point in TV sitcoms! I'll just chime in with my inspirations... I heard Jimmy Pankow playing at a concert and was in awe as a youngster and decided that trombone was for me. About three years later I went to a jazz festival where Count Basie and his band was supposed to be the headliner... and for some reason he couldn't make it so there was this band that I had never heard of... the Toshiko Akiyoshi Big Band. WOW! When I heard Phil Teele belting out the pedal Bb's on Road Time Shuffle... and Tuning Up... I fell in love with the bass trombone. That was when I switched. Another "OK" trombone player named Bill Reichenbach was playing with her also... just kidding Bill. What a player... he was playing lead. I didn't get to hear Bill playing bass trombone until I heard a recording of him with the Bobby Shew sextet... man! And as we've all gotten older... I was fortunate enough to be able to actually play with Bill and Mike Davis on one of their Bonetown concerts at the Texas Music Educators Conferences a couple of years ago. Bill really blew me away then... I can't say enough... Bill, when I grow up, I want to be just like you! : ) Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Cruse" To: Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:48 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Lisa, get away from that jazz man! > I¶m just watching a rerun of The Simpsons. It¶s the one where Lisa is really > depressed and hears this haunting saxophone sound coming from outside her > window. She grabs her horn and bolts out, saying, ¸I gotta find that sound!· > She then finds a street musician named Bleedin¶ Gums Murphy who teaches her > a bit about the blues. Haven¶t we all had moments like that, where we hear a > sound that we just gotta find? > > I¶ll share mine: Countless trombone players have switched to the bass > trombone after hearing George Roberts, but my moment came at Indiana > University while listening to my teacher Edwin Anderson play Rochut studies > down two octaves and sounding just as smooth and lyrical as you could > imagine. ¸Man, I gotta find that sound!· And I¶m happily still trying. > ---- > Dale Cruse > www.dalecruse.com > Setting you up for online success. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:07:56 +0300 From: eliezer aharoni Subject: Music shop recommendations Dear listers, Pryor to our Spain & USA tour, please let me know your recommanded music shops - brass specialist (sheet music and instruments) in the following cities: Spain - Madrid, Valencia, Saragosa US - N.Y city, Naples Fla., W. Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale,Miamy, Sarasota, Gainsville ,Daytona ,Wilmington, Philadelphia, Baltimore. Many Thanks. Eliezer Aharoni Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 Phone ++972 2 5341333 Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we use a Macintosh computer and in some cases can not convert them. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:14:09 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" Subject: Re: Natural Tuning One other problem is that a note can change pitch depending on where it fits in a chord, the tuning used, such a just, equal temper. Singing is good because you have to listen. The worse mistake now by groups is miking every singer, you lose the blend you get by singing into a common mike. Your ear to what is going on around you is your best tool Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Dyess" To: Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Natural Tuning > >I am just wondering what notes are naturaly out of tune, like I know > >that the slide must be moved down to play high E natural in tune. Are > >there other notes like this? > > > >Matthew > > > Oh my goodness, yes. You need to find the overtone series somewhere > on the internet or in a book somewhere. I wish I had the time. > > Basically, if you go from pedal Bb -- this is your reference point > called the fundamental. Get it in tune with the group you are > playing with or with a tuner. Then you'll reference all your other > notes from that. All Bb's should be in tune if you are doing things > right with the embouchure. Pinch in the upper register, however, and > even the high Bb will be out of tune. > > Play each note possible in 1st position... > > 1. Pedal Bb - reference tone and in tune > 2. Bb in the staff -- should be in tune > 3. F -- slightly sharp (out a tad) > 4. Bb on top of the staff and should be in tune > 5. D - on most horns, will be a flat note (in, in, in) > 6. F - usually sharp and needs slight adjustment (out) > 7. Ab -- so very flat that most of us play it in 3rd to get it in tune. > (in 3rd position, high Ab is actually the 8th note up and in tune) > 8. Bb -- if not pinching -- in tune. > > The observant and mathematically inclined trombonist will note that > the numbers 1, 2, 4, and 8 above are all Bb's and should all be in > tune. Ain't that special? > > The odd numbers are a little ... well, odd. 3 and 6 (double the > number, get it?) are both somewhat sharp. > 5 and 7 are mostly flat, with the lucky 7 being VERY much so. > > That's really all there is to remember -- times 7, of course. The > exception is the 7th partial. We CAN and do play those in the "out" > positions. Being masterful players, we trombonists have the ability > to play with the tuning slide in our hands at all times. Therefore, > we can raise the G in 2nd (7th note up from low pedal A), and the F# > in 3rd (7th note up from low pedal Ab)... and get them in tune. How > neat is THAT??? > > Some jazz players (like Urbie Green) will tune their Bb out a bit so > they have the slide room available in 1st to tune the D while using a > slide vibrato. Also cool, but it takes quite a bit of practice to > master this. I wouldn't advise it until you are secure the other way > first. > > OK.. the cents and specifics aren't there. But the basic ideas are. > You should be able to play along with someone at the piano, or with a > friend, and play reasonable well in tune if you know which notes have > "problems". Always use your ear and always listen. It doesn't get > any easier. > > Best wishes from Texas! > Wayne Dyess > > > -- > ========================= > Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music > Lamar University Music Department > P. O. Box 10044 > Beaumont, Texas 77710 > 409-880-8146 > FAX: 409-880-8143 > dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu > http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:59:23 -0600 From: Norbert Wegner Subject: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? This posting is a follow on to the "Why non-transposing" post by me a week or so ago. Thanks for your responses to this topic and happy new year to all. This leads me to my follow-on question. What position is a high C on a Bb trombone? 1st or 3rd? Most of you bass clef-ers out there will probably say 3rd but I say it is 1st. When you play a note with the shortest length of tubing on a Bb trombone you are playing a concert Bb. When you ask a trumpet player (Bb horn typically) or a french horn player (F typically) or an alto player (Eb) to play a C, they play it with open fingering since their music is always transposed for them to the pitch of the horn. Open on a Bb trumpet is equivalent to 1st position on a Bb trombone. If both are Bb horns then both must be playing the same note which is a C for that horn or a concert Bb. Just because bass clef trombone music is written in concert pitch and not in the pitch of the horn, doesn't change the fact that the shortest length of tubing makes a C for that horn. We just tell ourselves that a C is 3rd position because it's less confusing. Does anyone out there agree with me? In case you haven't guessed yet, I come from a brass band background where trombone music is written in Bb and a C is 1st position. I'd be interested to hear peoples views on this. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:27:24 -0600 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: putting a bass trombone together sdlr, Actually I believe I'm getting the short end of the stick as I read over and over that Shires designed the Edwards trombones. This project was begun in 1987 and had no involvement whatsoever from Shires until I strongly lobbied to have the Getzens hire him to oversee production on a full time basis. All of the bell combinations and other critical design features were well in place before his short two year tenure and any development in that timeframe was carried out in consultation with me. Edwards was my baby and Steve was primarily developing the Getzen trombones from the technology developed for Edwards. I continued on with Edwards for several years after his departure was instrumental in Joe Alessi's horn, sterling leadpipes, and Dave Taylor's horn among other things long after Shires left. Sorry to have to rain on your parade. Gary -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Bass Trombone stuff Glad you found a horn that works for you. I think you gave Shires short shrift though. Are you aware that he was the original maker of the Edwards trombones? After he left, they continued to produce what he designed, but, he was not the guy making the slides or the bells that made them famous. Consequently, they are only cheap (but pricey) imitations of his work. When I decided on a Shires it was after trying Edwards basses that some symphonic players I know have, trying Shires combinations that were available in LA and going to Shires in Mass. and trying several bells (my research helped me pick the valves, Greenhoes, in advance as well as the dual bore slide). I hate the sound of double thayer valves on basses, I love the sound of single thayer valves on tenors. I did a lot of research on Edwards, Yamaha, Holton, Shires and Rath and for myself picked Shires with a double dependent Greenhoe valve system, red brass bell (soldered rim), yellow brass tuning slide (B) and hand slide (nickle end slide bow) and yellow brass 2.5 leadpipe. I play on a Jeff Reynolds mouthpiece (which is actually a copy of a Minick L, with a few changes). Steve Shires bells are fantastic, but you have to pick the one out of about 20 variations of material (yellow, gold, red brass) and varying thicknesses (thinner toward the flare, or thicker, or thinner in the bell throat, more Conn-like, or Bach-like, or Holton-like, which is really a redder brass copy of Conn). The only way to do that is go to him with the kind of music you play and let him listen and advise you. His ears and mind are fantastic. You tell him (and play for him) the kind of music you want to do, he is great about picking the combination (out of 10-20 bells, several leadpipes, tuning slides of various material) that you are looking for. At the end, he sent me two bell sections, 4 leadpipes, and the slide (his are the best, ask anybody) to try to find what I wanted. I picked what I wanted after several weeks of experimenting and sent him back the stuff i didn't want. BTW, I am a professional player, IOW playing and teaching is my only occupation and has been for many years. I am attaching some of the research I did when studying the Shires trombones. Jim Prindle San Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:38:44 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: What position is C on a Bb Trombone? At 9:59 PM -0600 1/6/03, Norbert Wegner wrote: >What position is a high C on a Bb trombone? 1st or 3rd? >Most of you bass clef-ers out there will probably say 3rd but I say it is 1st. ----snip-----> Uh oh. Better run fer cover, thar, Norbert. This jess might git a bit deep. Both C's speak for me about equally well, and I have no difficulty in getting them. Therefore, I let the approach (or departure) dictate which position I'll use. By blowing a bit differently, I can get slightly different timbres from each, too. That can also effect my decision. So for this ole boy, it's about six of one or half a dozen of the other. Make sense Kimo-Sabe? Wayne-o-san -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Jan 2003 to 6 Jan 2003 (#2003-6) *************************************************************