Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 2 Jan 2003 to 3 Jan 2003 (#2003-4) Date: Saturday, January 4, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 54 messages totalling 2401 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (4) 2. Weird musical and pop orchestra thread (9) 3. New Travel Worries 4. Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) (14) 5. Broadway and such.. (3) 6. Further Destruction (9) 7. Further destruction 8. Survey participants needed 9. Sorry, I'm going politcal was RE: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) (2) 10. Info on forthcoming pieces (6) 11. help with excerpt 12. Thanks Jim Scott 13. Topic Closed (Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) 14. Good Pops Report ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:51:24 -0500 From: Neal Schermerhorn Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession Just had to add a few random cents before bed: I play in a rock cover band. We play weddings, clubs, private parties. And we do NOT do Tower of Power. We only do Chicago and BS+T if it's requested. Steely Dan too. The bulk of it is singable, danceable pop. Yet there are plenty of bone players who would kill me, if they could get away with it, to get my gig. Yes, there are tunes I hate. There is stuff I can't stand playing. But would I rather be home watching TV? Not on your life. Would I prefer playing out-there jazz and crazy artsy stuff like that? You bet. But let's be real. Who is going to pay me to do that? I worked in a factory for a while. I waited tables and sold retail. I would rather play the worst gigs imaginable for the rest of my life than work a real job. Teaching is as close as I'll come. I also conduct a community orchestra. We have to do pops to stay afloat. I spend more time selecting quality pops than classical, because there's so much more crap out there in the pops realm. It's very important to me to put together a program which is schlock-free as much as is possible, while still matching the abilities of the group. Would I prefer doing no pops? In a way, yes. But not really. If the public would support us without the pops, that would be great. But the simple fact is - in today's market they will not. This is not your father's Oldsmobile. The reality of today is this - be very lucky you have a job. Enjoy even the worst moments, because when the ride stops and they make you get off, all you'll have are the memories, and stories that no one will believe. That's worth so much more to me than money or art. And they are worth plenty, I assure you. So when the grump playing 3rd trumpet says, "This gig is crap," you turn around and tell him, "But think of the story you'll be able to tell!" Frankly, I love music as much as anyone, but people are far more important. The people who want to hear pops and can't tell, and don't care, that we're doing a fabulous job. The people who are wanting to dance but are cool that someone requested What Is Hip. The people who ask me, "So tell me an amusing story about the exotic life in music." You'll get your chances to make art. But set out to make everything you play as musical as possible. Whether or not it's art, it will make them smile. The way I see it, even if you never get to play what you really would rather, you're doing far better than that guy selling toasters at Target. Unless, of course, he has found the joy in helping the people who need the right toaster. Then he's doing fine. He knows his job's not about him, it's about these people who need a toaster. The music is not for you. It's for them. Make it to order, but you can still make it special and unique so they keep asking for more. Neal Schermerhorn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 00:01:03 -0800 From: jimandcat@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread So, Randy Campora, you would rather clean bathrooms than play pop concerts? Gosh, it must be awful to sit there in your tux and get a big check to play whole notes and pop music while people in the audience are hoping for a good classy time with your orchestra. Give me a break. It is an easy gig, a nice check, all you have to do is play well and have some class. Hey, you can come clean my bathroom anytime, I'm tired of doing that, I would much rather be sitting on a stage backing Yanni while collecting a salary and benefits and a pension plan :^). I am playing a 2 week run of "The Producers" right now. The bass bone part is pretty good and all the band plays all the time. I talked to a reed player tonight from New York who is doing "Oklahoma" in NYC. One would think that would be a robot thing. No, he said it was great to be a part of great melodic playing and he is enjoying the run (he's taking a vacation in San Diego and playing this run of "The Producers" because he did it in NYC, and got connected out here). I can understand the frustration of jazz players who are very talented and have to read the same part in a show and play the same way every night. But, isn't that the same challenge the symphony guys do? Because you have played Beethoven's 9th season after season, does that make you pissed off to have to do it again? Or do you make the next performance the most memorable for you, your colleagues, and the audience? I am watching (in this run of "The Producers") a couple of fine jazz brass guys getting their butts kicked making the part work. They are doing okay, sometimes. But quite frankly, they are not keeping up with the symphony guys and the regular show musicians. And, boy do they complain about having to play the same thing for 3 hours, 8 shows a week. But, they have my respect, they are doing their best. They are really just complaining about having to work so hard. They are more used to 40 minute sets of the same tunes and styles, and not having to be real careful about their playing to get the job done. Some of these guys have been playing the same gigs for years. Kind of like orchestras repeating programs over the years. Every act of music is spontaneous, but repetitive in another way. Just think about it. Jim Prindle San Diego ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:37:51 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread From: > Because > you have played Beethoven's 9th season after season, does that make you > pissed off to have to do it again? Well OK, I guess we could try some different changes in the jazz chorus. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:41:58 -0800 From: Andrew Michael Subject: New Travel Worries After reading some of the recent articles about the new bomb checks on checked baggage, I have some thoughts about traveling with horns. First, in December the TSA (Transportation Security Agency?) folks wouldn't even let me try to carry my horn on or gate check it. Same with a guitarist in line behind me. They wouldn't even let us get to the x-ray machines before making us go check our cases. Telling them that the airline told us to carry on or gate check didn't help. So, carrying on may be getting harder. Second, with the new checks on checked baggage you need to be ready for the possibility that they will want to open your case even when you are not there. They are recommending that you do not lock your checked baggage except with plastic wire wraps that can be cut. I can see how to do that on my Walt Johnson case but not on my SKB golf bag. I've also thought of locking my case but leaving the key attached to the handle. I figure the lock is really just an extra safety to keep the latches from being accidently opened (more a problem with the golf case). If you do lock it and they want to open it, expect them to force the locks which may break the latches. Third, if they do open your case and perhaps even take the horn out, what are the odds that someone who thinks it is a flute is going to get the horn back in the case correctly? Will they put the bubble wrap back around the gig bag in the SKB golf case correctly? I'm going to take a set of pictures and putting them inside the case so it is obvious. Also, while the accessory compartment might be a safe place when properly packed what if a mouthpiece gets left in the main part of the case when they repack it. So, I'm also planning to carry on my mouthpieces and accessories or pack them in another checked bag. Fourth, a year or so ago I got to see my horn go through one of the big x-ray machines. These are not the gentle carry-on bag machines we are used to. The SKB golf case came out at very high speed and went slamming into the end of the machine. Fortunately, there was no damage to the horn. But, be extra careful when packing. They have added another step to shock your horn. I'm sure they don't do this every time, but it was quite a shock at the beginning of a trip that included a big gig. Finally, if a horn does get damaged it will be fun trying to pin the blame on the TSA or the airline as both will have had an opportunity to do the damage. Maybe someday they will live up to Congress' request that they do something to accommodate musicians. But, in the meantime, extra care will be needed. Finally, I'd like to say that I'm not objecting to the extra security and would like to commend the best question I've been asked by a security guard in the last few years. After running my horn back and forth through the x-ray machine a few times, he passed it through and said, "Just one question, are you good?" Cheers, Andy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:48:00 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) Dear Randy and list: What I think is the main issue here is not playing a standard symphony concert versus playing a pops concert. Some conductors and orchestra managements are interested in one thing, and one thing only, and that is MAKING MONEY. Arts organizations need money to survive, and pops concerts are a very necessary part of the survival of the modern symphony orchestra. Only in very large metropolitan areas can an orchestra play nothing but regular subscription concerts, because the more people that you have in an area, the more people that your going to have that support the symphony orchestra as we know it that plays only Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, etc. If we didn't do a variety of programs here, we would be in worse financial trouble than what we are. Most people out there really don't know what they want to hear, but I do have a theory on that one. That theory is very simple: if you consistently produce a product that is at the highest level possible artistically, then people will support it, because people that support the arts, by-in-large, realize one thing, if they don't realize anything else: to play ANY kind of MUSIC at the highest level possible requires a very high level of discipline on the part of EVERY member of the organization. That includes the conductor, the musicians, and the artists on stage, and also the people behind the scenes as well, the composers and arrangers. I wish that I could work 52 weeks a year doing nothing but playing music, but personally, I want to do the best quality of music that is available. I'll give you an example from my little world. Pops concerts do not bother me: but there are good concerts and OK concerts and down right deplorable concerts. Probably the best pops show that we did last season was a tribute to Richard Rogers, and it was also one of the most expensive pops concerts that we did for the following reasons: 1) We rented the original music from New York and 2) we brought in some first rate Broadway soloists. However, except for the big band concert that we do every year, that concert was much better attended than most of our symphony subscriptions, and definitely better than our other pops concerts where we feature cheesier acts. I'll never forget what one of our patrons said to me after the concert was over: She simply asked, "Why can't the orchestra play that way all of the time? That was truly inspired. Thanks for a wonderful evening." Well, the orchestra did play well, the conductor was on his better behavior that night, the soloists were fantastic, and the arrangements were absolutely first rate. Not a single dog in the bunch. That proved the point that I'm trying to make: if everyone involved in the production will remember why they are there, and that reason should be to play music on the highest level possible, NOT JUST TO GET A PAYCHECK, the enthusiasm within the orchestra will spill over into the audience, and they'll continue to buy the product, again, again, and again. And I contend that we wouldn't have near the problem selling out our subscriptions that we do if the orchestra played the standard literature better. It is a very difficult balancing act. Here in Chattanooga, the opera association and the symphony association merged almost 20 years ago. Personally, I dislike opera, unless it is Mozart or Puccini on the Italian side of things, and we never do Wagner because we don't have the forces to pull it off. We have enough of a problem pulling off 2 full staged operas a season as it is. However, it is a part of the job, and the money is pretty good, as there are 6 services total. What I have to do to keep from going completely looney is to concentrate on improving some part of my art, and that usually has to do with concentrating on how my part fits into the whole of the ensemble. Most of the trombone parts in Italian opera are not that great--or maybe it is that due to the size of the orchestra and the fact that we have an absolutely horrible pit in terms of conditions that force us to play at much less than the printed dynamics that turn me off. However, I do like listening to absolutely first rate singers, which we do get sometimes. Randy, I noticed the list of folks that you mentioned at the bottom of your post. Those are all first class acts--those singers realize that the secret to their success is their araangements, and people like Marian McPartland are world class artists. Wouldn't it be great if we could work with people like that all of the time? I know that I would be like a kid in a candy shop. But I understand your frustration: here you have a very good orchestra, and when you're asked to do music that doesn't interest you, and it has nothing to do with the performance of your colleagues, it really grates on you. And after a while it gets increasingly more and more difficult to just suck it up and take the check. And really, the only thing that you can do is to do what you've been doing, and that's to try to make changes by working with your management boards. However, in my experience, management knows very little about art, and I probably wouldn't be very good at management, because I would want to see the act live or at least rely on the recommendation of a colleague that I respect in order to make sure that it was realy a first rate act. I would assume that the really first rate acts are very expensive as well. We've done a couple of pops things here, particularly with folk and some so-called jazz artists that were marginal musically, to say the least. And, like you Randy, I didn't get very much out of it except for a few extra dollars to go into my bank account. Oh well. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Campora" To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) > Some clarification on my comments RE Pops: > > I am not in the business of telling people what they should like and not > like, or what they should buy tickets for, or to worry about how much money > they have or don't have. My point was simply: "I" don't like playing that > stuff, because I don't think that most symphony pops programs have anything > to do with what an orchestra is, what it does, and what it is trained to > do. It's a mismatch, but it happens to be one that makes money so > orchestras take advantage of that, and in turn, it pays me a 52-week salary > instead of a 42-week salary (our orchestra does 8 weeks of pops concerts in > the regular season plus probably about 4 weeks of popsy stuff in the summer > season--that comes out to about one third of the playing season). Believe > me, I am very appreciative of the fact that I get a pay check every week of > the year. But that does not mean that I am appreciative of what the > management may ask me to do in order to earn that paycheck every week of > the year. > > Yes, it's all relative: one man's pops is another man's > no-big-deal-lets-just-do-it type of thing. The guys in the Vienna > Philharmonic complain about all that "rinky-dink early Italian opera" they > have to do in the pit (Donizetti and his fellows) while the rest of us > would give blood to play in the Vienna Philharmonic for one night, > Donizetti or not. > > I am happy when the audience enjoys themselves, even if I didn't very much > that night--at least somebody did! And that's better than when nobody had a > good time. > > Phil is right, things go down the toilet very quickly when we don't take > seriously the parts of our jobs that we don't particularly like very much. > That is part of the problem, though he is 100% right: in order to do a good > job on a pops concert you have to be prepared and committed to what you are > doing, but then at the end of it you don't get much out of it in return. > That leads to the feelings of frustration, but every job, music or non > music, has those elements and they are something to be reckoned with. Part > of our need to blow off steam after a pops concert is precisely because we > had to take it seriously and try our best while we were doing it on stage. > > I am very appreciative of the job I have, please don't misunderstand. I > have been working with our board and management for many years to try to > make progress so that our orchestra can make the same amount of revenue by > way of ticket sales by playing the music that we as an orchestra are > trained to play, and playing less of the music that we are not really > qualified to play or that is not at all well suited to a symphony > orchestra. That is simply my goal, and I can't say that I've made much > progress but it's fun to keep trying and I keep up hope. > > Plato once, in his teachings, divided a man's activities and works into two > categories: category I are those works that are directly connected with a > man's mission in life, his beliefs, his reason for living and his passions, > and category II are those works that he does simply in order that he may > accomplish category I. For me, pops concerts are category II. I guess > that's all I am saying. I am trying to spend more time in category I. > That's all. For example, if I am real estate lawyer and I really enjoy that > and I put my all into it and I think it is where my gifts are, but my firm > asks me to spend one third of my time doing personal injury cases so the > firm will have a more healthy bottom line, I do it but I don't have much > talent for it, it's hard to put my all into it because I am not as fully > trained in that area and I'm doing it because someone has ordered me to do > it. In the lawyerly world, if I really am good at real estate law, I can > try to move to a firm that will allow me to spend all of my time doing > that. Maybe I am biased, but in our profession of music it may be harder to > move from one "firm" to another, simply because there are so fewer "firms" > to work for. But it still is possible. Or you can stay at the firm and try > to change it from the inside... > > Just so you'll know that I am not a total weirdo, here are some symphony > pops people whose shows I have thought were successful both for the > audience and for the orchestra musicians (I am sure I am leaving some off > this list because of faulty memory), though I may not have liked everything > about the concert, they were gifted performers and made things work out OK: > Marian McPartland, Smothers Brothers, Garrison Keilor, Doc Severinson, > Linda Ronstadt, Maureen McGovern, Danny Kay, Victor Borge, Ray Charles. > Those type of folks. > > ~Randy Campora > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:23:19 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread Hey folks, lighten up. My bad for making the mistake of expressing a personal gripe on the list. I think I explained myself in my other posts. I appreciate the amenities you mention below, believe me. To go back to the original point of the thread that I made: if Broadway musicians are replaced by recorded music, then in my opinion the last positive aspect of the Broadway music scene will have been killed--the fact that it employs so many musicians. And the fact that whatever plays on Broadway eventually makes its way onto symphonic Pops concerts, for better or for worse. All the rest was a personal gripe, and should have just remained that. Sorry I brought it up. ~Randy At 12:01 AM 1/3/2003 -0800, jimandcat@JUNO.COM wrote: >So, Randy Campora, you would rather clean bathrooms than play pop >concerts? Gosh, it must be awful to sit there in your tux and get a big >check to play whole notes and pop music while people in the audience are >hoping for a good classy time with your orchestra. Give me a break. It is >an easy gig, a nice check, all you have to do is play well and have some >class. Hey, you can come clean my bathroom anytime, I'm tired of doing >that, I would much rather be sitting on a stage backing Yanni while >collecting a salary and benefits and a pension plan :^). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:56:20 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread This entire thread has made exciting reading. When I was younger I thought life would be perfect if I could make music my profession. Musicians had it made, so I thought. Guess what, us HR types gripe the same way when we get together. Probably engineers do, too. And teachers, etc. So, Randy it's good to hear that people like you are just as human as the rest of us. As a church musician, I would love to have my choir perform Bach and other sacred classics by the masters. But, no... the congregation and choir want new lighter music, not that stuffy old classical, "elevator" music that makes them think. So, even at my musical level I can understand the frustration. But, we soldier on. Say, next time I have to terminate the employment of 30 people using just the right words and repeat them exactly the same way and not tell those poor people how I really feel and not get creative to avoid any legal problems, I'll give one of you guys a call. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Randy Campora [mailto:Randy.Campora@VERIZON.NET] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 8:23 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Weird musical and pop orchestra thread Hey folks, lighten up. My bad for making the mistake of expressing a personal gripe on the list. I think I explained myself in my other posts. I appreciate the amenities you mention below, believe me. To go back to the original point of the thread that I made: if Broadway musicians are replaced by recorded music, then in my opinion the last positive aspect of the Broadway music scene will have been killed--the fact that it employs so many musicians. And the fact that whatever plays on Broadway eventually makes its way onto symphonic Pops concerts, for better or for worse. All the rest was a personal gripe, and should have just remained that. Sorry I brought it up. ~Randy At 12:01 AM 1/3/2003 -0800, jimandcat@JUNO.COM wrote: >So, Randy Campora, you would rather clean bathrooms than play pop >concerts? Gosh, it must be awful to sit there in your tux and get a big >check to play whole notes and pop music while people in the audience are >hoping for a good classy time with your orchestra. Give me a break. It is >an easy gig, a nice check, all you have to do is play well and have some >class. Hey, you can come clean my bathroom anytime, I'm tired of doing >that, I would much rather be sitting on a stage backing Yanni while >collecting a salary and benefits and a pension plan :^). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:54:10 +0100 From: Anders Carlsson Subject: Broadway and such.. With all this talk about Broadway I have one question. I«m hired to play The Full Monty this spring (first time in Sweden). It came to my knowledge a couple of days ago that the orchestra is meant to be on stage in this production, in costume. It also seems like the production people (to no surprise) really dislikes the use of music stands so they will probably like us to play the whole thing from memory. Is this done in the US at all, and in case it is how is it done and what are the consequences? /Anders Carlsson Gothenburg Sweden ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:53:08 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Re: Further Destruction I'm impressed by the thoughtful insight of many of the contributors to this thread. This is part of the value of the list to me, and it has me thinking about some aspects I hadn't considered in a long time. I couldn't discuss this topic on most work sites. It would simply be incomprehensible to most people, kind of like arguing about whether the caviar should be 1 degree colder or 1.4 degrees. And yet, changing attitudes toward work are a fairly fundamental part of meeting the future. I feel the need to pull out "Working" by Studs Terkel. I haven't read it in some years, maybe some decades. Last time I read it I was working jobs that neither required nor allowed any creative or intellectual component, and I was impressed with how realistic it was. Anybody read it recently? I thinking when we talk about robotization, we ought to remember that that IS the workplace for about 99.99% of the people. And Quality Management in many of its variations seeks to make it more so. (can you say SPC?) Something you might not know about robots in the auto industry: they aren't (and never were) intended to save labor costs directly. Their "reason for being" (there's some goofy French phrase that's relevant) is to be more precise than a human can. Anyway, I agree with everybody! but having worked a lot of peon jobs, I also count our blessings, whether you are a working pro or a fortunate amateur like me. Gotta go practice. Happy New Year, all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:13:30 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Further Destruction "I thinking when we talk about robotization, we ought to remember that that IS the workplace for about 99.99% of the people. And Quality Management in many of its variations seeks to make it more so. (can you say SPC?)" Statistical Process Control. Can you say ISO 9000? Many businesses are certified with ISO, just to remain in business. ISO strives for exact duplication with no variation when providing goods or services. McDonald's is the epitome of this philosophy. No matter where in the country or world, every McDonald's serves identical burgers and fries. They look, feel, smell and taste the same in Idaho to NY to Paris. Uniformity is good, variation is bad. There is no guarantee an ISO certified organization will provide a superior or even a good product or service, only that it is consistent. If your goal is to make the best burger, then document how you will do that and do not vary from that formula one iota. If your goal is to make a mediocre, but cheap burger, again document how you will do that and do not vary from that formula one iota - making a better burger deviates from your plan and threatens your certification. Write a procedure then do not vary from that procedure, unless analyzed, documented and approved. Does McDonalds make the best burgers, no but you know what to expect when you visit the golden arches - no surprises. Musicians are the antithesis of this McDonalds philosophy. Variation (creativity) is good, uniformity (robotization) is bad. This is what us non-professional musicians deal with daily. I'm off my soapbox. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL [mailto:richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 8:53 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction I'm impressed by the thoughtful insight of many of the contributors to this thread. This is part of the value of the list to me, and it has me thinking about some aspects I hadn't considered in a long time. I couldn't discuss this topic on most work sites. It would simply be incomprehensible to most people, kind of like arguing about whether the caviar should be 1 degree colder or 1.4 degrees. And yet, changing attitudes toward work are a fairly fundamental part of meeting the future. I feel the need to pull out "Working" by Studs Terkel. I haven't read it in some years, maybe some decades. Last time I read it I was working jobs that neither required nor allowed any creative or intellectual component, and I was impressed with how realistic it was. Anybody read it recently? I thinking when we talk about robotization, we ought to remember that that IS the workplace for about 99.99% of the people. And Quality Management in many of its variations seeks to make it more so. (can you say SPC?) Something you might not know about robots in the auto industry: they aren't (and never were) intended to save labor costs directly. Their "reason for being" (there's some goofy French phrase that's relevant) is to be more precise than a human can. Anyway, I agree with everybody! but having worked a lot of peon jobs, I also count our blessings, whether you are a working pro or a fortunate amateur like me. Gotta go practice. Happy New Year, all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:21:15 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Further destruction Well, since everyone seems to be chiming in... First - Randy, I admire your sincerety, and respect your opinion, and hope you are not too bitter about the responses to it. I had planned to make a half- joke in volunteering to sub for you for your pops stuff, but that may be salt on an open wound (oh damn - I guess I already said it...). But you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I hope you continue to feel free to express it. Your thoughts are much appreciated. Second - I echo the opinion that playing music - ANY music beats anything else for me. I too have worked horrible jobs - frozen produce processing, organic farm laborer, truss building... you get the idea. All of it was to help me pay for school and ultimately have the privelege of making music. I'm not yet where I want to be - I wave to work a "day job" to keep my wife and I afloat - but I have had many terrific performances and oportunities, and I further get to indulge my instrument repair, making, and design bent with a part time gig with dynamite people who let me explore this art too. But hell, I've had some horrible gigs - we all have. But I just have to think to myself "you COULD be on your hands and knees in a chicken-shit fertalized field transplanting lettuce, or writing proposals" and I can enjoy the time better. Third - the statement was made that quality art and experiences will always be supported. I WISH (though it would put me out of a job)! My whole reason for being hired as a Director of Development for DANCECleveland is to try to secure funding for what ticket sales cannot cover - beautiful, spectacular, quality modern dance. We want to commission; we want to have more educational programming; we want more live music (we do do some); we want to do so much! But we can only support our concert series, and even THAT is a struggle. We have no "Pops", even when we bring more popular companies like Momix and Pilobolus to town. We need other funds, because NO ONE would come if we charged what it cost. Philanthropy is the only means of supporting ourselves, and when times are as tough as they are now, foundations and corporations have other priorities. We are living proof that just because you affer quality, you cannot guarantee funding. As musicians, we have a priveledge beyond most people's dreams. We get to have FUN, and do what we LOVE, for money. Would I prefer if the Blossom Band did a serious concert once in a while? Would I like to play a summer full of Strauss over cheezy fusak. Sure. But I'm not weeding spinach, and I'm not pushing a pen when I do either - and I do have great stories - mostly of turning these "pops" situations into better music than I thought it could be when I got the book. I'm done... J.c. Sherman P.S. Remember the words of Robert Heinlein - Happiness is being priveleged enough to work hard, with long hours, at something you feel is worth doing. I'm pretty happy by that standard. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:38:28 EST From: Beldon Wade Subject: Re: Further Destruction We here in the US have promoted a standard of living that requires good income to continue. Those who produce salable materials rely on purchasers who have the wherewithall to buy their product. What happens when: People who work, get minimum wage and people who do not work because the work has been moved to take advantage of poverty wages to reduce costs, no one can afford to buy. Same thing holds true of musicians.. who do not work because they have been replaced by an electronic box. Who then has the money to attend some of the shows. Musicians like sales people like to observe their occupation at work ... and go to shows. No funds no go. I am sure that an audience is at least partly musician even if amateur. The end of the nose is sometimes hard to see. beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:45:34 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread From: "Avery, Ray (232)" > As a church musician, I would love to have my choir perform > Bach and other sacred classics by the masters. But, no... the congregation > and choir want new lighter music, not that stuffy old classical, "elevator" > music that makes them think. So, even at my musical level I can understand > the frustration. Howzabout trying them out on jazzed up versions of Bach. This has been done with taste by Les Swingle Singers, the Jacques Lousier Trio and many others. Just a though. A mixture of classical and lighter music may be the answer, but then I'm not a church-goer anyway (apart from weddings and funerals), maybe because the music and sermons Are so stuffy. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:50:48 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) Jeez Guys...I have enjoyed this discussion quite a bit. The very extreme comments on either side I have not enjoyed as much as the more moderate, sensible ones, though. One thing that I really liked was being reminded that I spent four years with my head in a toilet (so to speak) in order to pay college tuition. The Tucson Symphony plays all kinds of stuff to pay the bills...none of which is so bad that I would want to go back to being a janitor in order to escape it. And we have gotten quite good at playing this wide variety of stuff. If you can believe the traveling artists, the average orchestra in the same boat as the TSO tends to do the "symphonic jazz" routine better than the average full time orchestra. My thought is that we tend to be stocked with second tier musicians who have been struggling to keep up with the elite conservatory grads by taking any sort of thing we can get our hands on. So we get good at it. Another part of it is that people like to do things that they are good at. So it is less likely that we are going to show up to the gig with a bad attitude. That's not true of every player, of course. But the tendency here is to count your blessings and play the notes with integrity. On a personal level, playing any notes poorly makes for a miserable experience. In the case of lousy music, it just makes a bad situation worse. My advice...dedicate yourself to the idea of never compromising your personal ideals as a player and you will automatically get good at the styles you haven't been trained for. The results will be greater job satisfaction, I GAR-AHN-TEE. Sorry for my rambling style, but I'm in a hurry to get to our dress rehearsal for this weeks pops show with Ann Hampton Callaway. Schvingit, baby! Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Randy Campora Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:48 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) At 09:54 PM 1/2/2003 -0600, Robert Holland wrote: >That's so disrespectful to people who clean bathrooms! (OK, that's just a >joke.) But still, the balance weighs so far in favor of making music (even >those types we dislike) rather than bathroom duty for most of us that such a >remark sounds (to me, at least) really out of touch. I think my second post sort of addresses this. But you see, you use the phrase "making music" and my point is that on some pops concerts (not all, just the bottom half of the barrel I'm talking about) there is no kind of "making music" actually going on. It's dog and pony kind of stuff. If there is "making music" actually possible on stage, then yes, I agree, my bathroom idea would be out of touch. But it's when there is no possibility of making music that makes you want to hide and not be part of the "show" at all. >You already rationalized a bit that such distasteful musical endeavors may >be a necessary part of the job. I would go further in that the >professionalism demanded of musicians would support not only grudging >acceptance but the best motivations one can muster as well. That is >different from merely high performance standards. In my experience, pops >programs often suffer from poisoned attitudes before rehearsals ever begin. >One hears "it's only a pops concert," "the audience doesn't know the >difference," "no one can hear us outside," etc. Yes, that is true. Bad attitudes before the downbeat even happens are corrosive and certainly don't do anybody any good. However, good attitudes can be stretched to the limit if the conductor simply is way over his head, the soloist panders to the audience or tells X rated jokes, the sound person has everything up 10 times louder than needful, and the arrangements are worse than middle school marching band material. I played a pops concert where the singer, who shall remain nameless (she's a TV star type), did a sexy number while laying on top of the piano, but in the process of getting up there she "flashed" the audience each night, and the first night she had no undies on!--boy did we get letters on that one. See, that's just embarrassing and it plays with your mind over time. But still no excuse for a bad attitude as you describe it, I agree. >I played a series of pops outdoors last summer with an orchestra where it >was so hot and humid that we were all soaked before intermission. Yeah, we >suffered, but I was still happy to be there. The poisoned attitudes around >me ruined the music, though. Of course negativity finds its expression >through the instrument. We all know players that "play angry", it's a very bad, bad way to be. Muscles tend to get very tired when they are doing that, and careers are cut short... >I'm also not so naive that I don't recognized that even with subscription >concerts it is often a poisoned well. You can see it in the faces, the >posture, and you can hear it in the music. There might always be a couple rotten apples in the group, no matter what. The fact that the audience can sense that is inexcusable, in my opinion. ~Randy Campora ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:41:24 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) Randy Campora wrote: >My point was simply: "I" don't like playing that >stuff, because I don't think that most symphony pops programs have anything >to do with what an orchestra is, what it does, and what it is trained to >do. It's a mismatch, but it happens to be one that makes money so >orchestras take advantage of that, Plato once, in his teachings, divided a man's activities and works into two >categories: category I are those works that are directly connected with a >man's mission in life, his beliefs, his reason for living and his passions, >and category II are those works that he does simply in order that he may >accomplish category I. For me, pops concerts are category II. Underlying the above, I suspect, is a deeper gripe. That what you do for Category I--symphonic music--is not considered "good enough," "popular enough," "acceptable enough," or whatever enough to pay the bills on its own. Perhaps what I'm searching for is "valued enough." That not enough people value classical music enough for it to survive on its own merits. Certainly, one cannot imagine a rock group sponsoring a string quartet in order to raise money to keep it going. In this respect, it can be demeaning for a classical musician playing a pops concert--no matter how professional that musician, nor how accomplished that pops performance--to know that he/she has to play this concert because what he/she does during regular subscriptions is not valued enough by enough members of society to carry its own weight. Not only may this be demoralizing, it is a sign that classical music is in decline and is bailing to survive. I played a pops concert with a jazz trio. A large segment of the event featured the trio alone, with the orchestra in the background twiddling its thumbs. To what purpose? Apparently, the orchestra was not valued enough even to do its own fund raising. We had to bring in outside jazzers (and this is no disrespect to those performers). Indeed, several audience members later wondered what was going on, noting the orchestra looked silly sitting up there doing nothing for 20 minutes. Admittedly, this is an extreme example (I hope), but I've seen orchestras reduced to a backup band for a pop singer, and that's bad enough. There are far better ways to run pops concerts, ways that present the orchestra in venues that exploit what it does best. Orchestras are not Broadway bands. They're not rock groups or jazz bands. They are orchestras. They should play orchestral music. They should believe in what they sell. By using rock, jazz or Broadway to sell their wares, they're essentially saying they do not believe in their wares. If orchestras don't believe in their wares, why should the public? And maybe, deep down, this is what Randy is saying: I believe in my wares, but my employers are not so sure. So I play Broadway. Or whatever. There is a lot of orchestra music that is perfectly fitting for pops concerts if programmers had any imagination. And there are a lot of ways to present it within the concert framework. Some observers have noted that opera is actually popular among young people because of its theatrical appeal to a number of senses. All right, there are plenty of imaginative ways to present opera or opera excerpts. Which raises another point. Pops concerts should be thought of as ways not only to raise money but to recruit new listeners for orchestral music. How running a jazz trio all by itself in front of an orchestra or using an orchestra to back up Barry Manilow (often with the orchestra somewhat darkened and out of the way, like a pit band) is beyond me. YOu want to recruit new listeners with music that is not too heavy? Flash. There is a LOT of music that lies in style between Gotterdammerung and Barry Manilow (no insult intended to Mr. Manilow). The problem is a few organizations have gone the crossover way and have been perceived as successful in doing so. Since American business, and I count orchestras in that group, subscribes wholeheartedly to the herd mentality, it's not hard to understand what happened next and continues to happen. I've heard many orchestra officials actually admit that this is what they're doing. So I can see how one can be depressed playing pops concerts. It's not a question of not liking the work or being bored. It's a question of not being true to onesself and ones art, in not believing in what one is doing. It's admitting, or being forced to sit up there and appear to be admitting, that what you do is not "good enough." In a way it's begging: "If I play my organ grinder for you, will you give me money so I can play Bruckner for me?" Well, I suppose that's reality for you. Maybe it's why I read novels more that history. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:50:20 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Further Destruction At 08:53 AM 1/3/2003 -0500, richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote: >I feel the need to pull out "Working" by Studs Terkel. I haven't read it in >some years, maybe some decades. Last time I read it I was working jobs that >neither required nor allowed any creative or intellectual component, and I >was impressed with how realistic it was. Anybody read it recently? Not recently, but I remember it. For something far more depressing along the same lines with a different approach, try Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. It's an account of the author's attempt to live on $7.50/hr jobs in the US. Her verdict? Well nigh impossible--with any sense of well-being, anyway, let alone with any sense of having health insurance. It's the nasty secret of American life and one that may be visited upon more people as the economy continues to stagger. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:05:44 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) Very well spoken indeed--better than I could express it. ~RC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:14:33 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) At 08:50 AM 1/3/2003 -0700, Steve Gamble wrote: >My advice...dedicate yourself to the idea of never compromising your >personal ideals as a player and you will automatically get good at the >styles you haven't been trained for. The results will be greater job >satisfaction, I GAR-AHN-TEE. Yes, that is true. Modern big band playing is about as much fun as a bass trombonist can have on this planet, I think. The parts are all over the horn, solos, solis, really technically challenging, just great fun and takes a whole lot of work to make it sound effortless. I feel comfy doing that kind of thing having played in the Florida State jazz ensemble for about 2 1/2 years in my college days (Marcus Roberts was the pianist!). Problem is, often when a symphonic pops book comes around, it's written so badly that it puts the players in a kind of nether-zone: it's not jazz, it's not classical, it's not big band writing, what is it? What am I supposed to do with that? The hardest bass trombone part I have ever played was a soli section with the bari sax in Toshiko Akiyoshi's March of the Tadpoles. Go figure. It's funny, when I see my buddies who play in the DC military jazz bands we say hi, then he says "hey, it must be fun to play all those great orchestra pieces every day" and then I say "hey, it must be great to play all those great jazz charts every day". It's not that we don't appreciate what we are doing, it's that we also acknowledge that what the other guy is doing is great fun and it would be nice to stray from one's box every now and then. No big deal. But again, most symphonic pops is somewhere in the zone between those two types of playing I just mentioned. For me personally, I like it hot or cold, but not lukewarm. I don't like that middle zone. It's hard to figure out what style you are supposed to be playing when there is no style... ~Randy Campora ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:46:15 -0500 From: Brian French Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession Every few years, our orchestra tries to put together a pops series in order to generate a few more bucks. It usually tanks by the end of the season, seemingly because our European-trained conductor is so incredibly stiff and uncomfortable he sort of alienates the audience. We are a small regional orchestra (6 masterworks series, and this season 4 pops series) and don't have the privilege of a staffing a pops conductor. Our closest "competitor" is 20 miles down the road, an orchestra with roughly the same budget at 40% of the same musicians. Over the past six years they've seen tremendous growth, in part because of a highly successful pops series led by a competent, qualified, and congenial conductor. They're losing him this year, however, and will have a tough time filling his post in this regard. --Brian Steve Gamble wrote: >The Tucson Symphony plays all kinds of stuff to pay the bills... > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:57:36 -0500 From: Steve Beck Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession From: "Neal Schermerhorn" > Frankly, I love music as much as anyone, but people are far more important Very well said. Many of the musicians on this list are true artists. I can hear the frustration at having to play music that showcases so little of your talent. Sort of like asking Michelangelo to paint the Sistine chapel ceiling in white. I'm a musician, but I really can't claim to be an artist. If white paint is required - white paint is what I'll deliver. (In the Big Band I play in, I never complain when we play "In the Mood.") That is not to say the artists on this list don't have a concern. However, we are all in the same boat. I have a day job that both allows my creativity to flow, and then at times demands rigid conformity to the status quo. I can let that gnaw at me, or just do the job I'm being paid for and wait for those moments that make it worth while. This becomes a lot easier if you adopt Mr. Schermerhorn's advice. This isn't about us. This is providing a service to a customer. You can crab all you want about the ignorance of those whom you provide a service to, but that is truly biting the hand that feeds you. I have a pessimistic view of the future of music performance. I hope I am wrong but the trend look bleak. I can't imagine a strategy of resisting the audiences desires as helping this situation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:20:12 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread > >So, Randy Campora, you would rather clean bathrooms than play pop >concerts? > I clean toilets, instead of doing engineering. IÕm unemployed, so IÕm the househusband, by default. I cook, clean and shop. And you know what? We both like it a lot. The kids are gone, so itÕs not a 24-hour a day job. And I get the house all day. Yesterday, I watched a flick, with the volume turned way up, so that I could still hear it while playing long tones of seconds partials, with the F-attachment engaged. See how long-winded playing long tones gets me? Ah, but I did have a point, for those who havenÕt long since deleted this message. What if we all agree on this thread, but have vast differences in semantics? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:22:21 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread > > > Because > > you have played Beethoven's 9th season after season, does that make > > >you pissed off to have to do it again? >Well OK, I guess we could try some different changes in the jazz chorus. I always liked the Man Facing Southwest version, myself. DanP _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:24:13 -0600 From: Phil Brink Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread Let us define your terms! ;-) Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Weird musical and pop orchestra thread > >So, Randy Campora, you would rather clean bathrooms than play pop >concerts? > I clean toilets, instead of doing engineering. I'm unemployed, so I'm the househusband, by default. I cook, clean and shop. And you know what? We both like it a lot. The kids are gone, so it's not a 24-hour a day job. And I get the house all day. Yesterday, I watched a flick, with the volume turned way up, so that I could still hear it while playing long tones of seconds partials, with the F-attachment engaged. See how long-winded playing long tones gets me? Ah, but I did have a point, for those who haven't long since deleted this message. What if we all agree on this thread, but have vast differences in semantics? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:31:36 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Weird musical and pop orchestra thread > >Guess what, us HR types gripe the same way when we get >together. Probably engineers do, too. And teachers, etc. > Ray, As an HR person you should know better. Engineers may think about the same sort of griping but we lack the social skills to communicate it to anyone. DanP _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:42:44 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) >It's not that we don't appreciate what we are >doing, it's that we also acknowledge that what the other guy is doing is >great fun and it would be nice to stray from one's box every now and then. Just keep in mind that if the grass is actually greener on the other side, then theyÕre going to have to mow it more often. DanP _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:54:25 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Re: Further Destruction No, that's not it. Raison d'etre means "ruined with cheese." As does chicken "cordon bleu." And potatoes "au gratin." Etc., etc., etc. So far as I have been able to determine, all French phrases may be translated that way. That is one of the reasons you cannot make them understand their own language. Beat you to it this time, Adrian. -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Clason [mailto:dclason@nmsu.edu] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:02 PM To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: RE: [TBN-L] Further Destruction Their "reason for > being" (there's some goofy French phrase that's relevant) is to be more > precise than a human can. Raison d'etre (literally, reason for being) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:42:11 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Survey participants needed I received an email message from a Doctoral candidate who is seeking participants for a survey for his thesis. His message follows below; if interested, please respond directly to the writer (Martin Cochran) at: mceuph@hotmail.com -Doug Yeo ===== From: "Martin Cochran" Subject: DMA Survey Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 I'm teaching tuba/euphonium at the U. of West Georgia, and am beginning work on my doctoral thesis, which will focus on parallels between verbal stuttering and "lock-up" problems involving the valsalva maneuver in brass playing, or "musical" stuttering, as I have termed it. As part of this project, I will be sending out a short survey to brass players who are experiencing this problem, and was hoping that you may know of a person or persons who are dealing with this and may want to participate(any brass instrument). I've dealt with this for the last 7 years myself, and am deeply interested in getting quality research done on this, so that treatment options can be explored. If you happen to know anyone who may be interested, please have them email me at mceuph@hotmail.com Thanks so much for your time. Sincerely, Martin Cochran mceuph@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:48:01 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Further Destruction As Charles de Gaulle once said "How do you govern a nation with over 300 different cheeses!". ----- Original Message ----- From: > No, that's not it. > > Raison d'etre means "ruined with cheese." > > As does chicken "cordon bleu." > And potatoes "au gratin." Etc., etc., etc. > > So far as I have been able to determine, all French phrases may be > translated that way. That is one of the reasons you cannot make them > understand their own language. > > > > Beat you to it this time, Adrian. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:11:08 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Broadway and such.. --- Anders Carlsson wrote: > It came to my knowledge a couple of days ago > that > the orchestra is meant to be on stage in this production, > in costume. It also seems like the production people (to > no > surprise) really dislikes the use of music stands so they > will probably like us to play the whole thing from > memory. > > Is this done in the US at all, and in case it is how is > it > done and what are the consequences? Well...if you are onstage and in costume, I believe most union agreements require a pretty significant overscale. I don't know if there are any special considerations for required memorization, but it wouldn't surprise me. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:16:37 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Broadway and such.. On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Gabriel Langfur wrote: > Well...if you are onstage and in costume, I believe most > union agreements require a pretty significant overscale. I And, do they have to drop trou? Carole cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:21:33 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) --- Roger Hecht wrote: > Certainly, one cannot imagine a rock group sponsoring a > string quartet in > order to raise money to keep it going. I can. Why not? In some ways, the Rolling Stones have acted as sponsors for Michael Davis' career, if only through the act of hiring him consistently, giving him the financial resources and, therefore, freedom from scrambling for a living that most of us go through, to pursue all of his writing & recording. And if I may step up on my soapbox for a second...I read all the time about super-rich athletes and pop stars and actors and such, in articles that celebrate their outrageous levels of conspicuous consumption. Millions of people have seen how Ozzy Osbourne and his family live in their palace; millions of people know how many custom-built cars Shaquille O'Neal has. How much good could they do in the world if they would live even a tiny bit more simply and put their money to good use? How many families could they feed? How many children could they educate? How many string quartets, brass quintets, jazz orchestras, poetry journals or art museums could they sponsor? Maybe I should shut up and take this to a political forum. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:58:43 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) >--- Roger Hecht wrote: >> Certainly, one cannot imagine a rock group sponsoring a >> string quartet in >> order to raise money to keep it going. > >I can. > >Why not? In some ways, the Rolling Stones have acted as >sponsors for Michael Davis' career, if only through the act >of hiring him consistently, giving him the financial >resources and, therefore, freedom from scrambling for a >living that most of us go through, to pursue all of his >writing & recording. > >And if I may step up on my soapbox for a second...I read >all the time about super-rich athletes and pop stars and >actors and such, in articles that celebrate their >outrageous levels of conspicuous consumption. Millions of >people have seen how Ozzy Osbourne and his family live in >their palace; millions of people know how many custom-built >cars Shaquille O'Neal has. > >How much good could they do in the world if they would live >even a tiny bit more simply and put their money to good >use? How many families could they feed? How many children >could they educate? How many string quartets, brass >quintets, jazz orchestras, poetry journals or art museums >could they sponsor? > >Maybe I should shut up and take this to a political forum. > >Gabe ================== Music IS politics. How so? Art is culture. Culture is politics. (Can you imagine Hitlerian fascism in Cuba? The Haitian occult/dictatorship of the Duvaliers in Sweden? Swedish socialism in Alabama or Mexico? Not happening.) Music is art. Change the art, change the culture (Plato: "When modes of music change, fundamental laws of the State always change with them." This has always made great sense to me, although I am not at all sure which is the chicken and which the egg.) Music is politics, on both their highest levels., and all of us...student trombonists to the highest level musical artists on any instrument...are involved in the task of POLITICALLY changing things. i would make the argument that the bebop revolution and before that, the invention and dissemination of jazz, changed the face of American culture (and thus American politics) more than any other event except the vast immigrations of the late 19th/early 20th century. Want to do a little imagining? Imagine America,...all of the culture, including the political one...w/out Louis Armstrong and his inheritors. Go on...I dare you. No roaring '20s, no Warner Brothers cartoons, no swing era, Trent Lott as mainstream instead of right wing, no entrance into WW II, quite possibly no integration, no youth cultures as we have known them, no worldwide American culture boom...there's a great book in there somewhere... Music IS politics, and to some degree this list is quite properly a "political forum".. S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:07:54 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Further Destruction >As Charles de Gaulle once said "How do you govern a nation with over >300 >different cheeses!". The first legislative act that GW made, when he got into office (so to speak), was to declare that the bubbles in ÒSwissÓ cheese (bought by the government, I suppose) could be no larger than 9/16 of an inch in diameter (or something like that). Proof that itÕs way easier to govern a country with fewer choices in cheese. No, what I really meant to say was, proof that you should steer clear of ÒSwissÓ cheese, when in a government-run cafeteria. No, what I REALLY meant to say was, if thatÕs not an indication of campaign donations in action, what is? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:17:18 -0600 From: Phil Brink Subject: Re: Further Destruction Cheese Louise! [I couldn't resist] Phil -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 5:08 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction >As Charles de Gaulle once said "How do you govern a nation with over >300 >different cheeses!". The first legislative act that GW made, when he got into office (so to speak), was to declare that the bubbles in ÒSwissÓ cheese (bought by the government, I suppose) could be no larger than 9/16 of an inch in diameter (or something like that). Proof that itÕs way easier to govern a country with fewer choices in cheese. No, what I really meant to say was, proof that you should steer clear of ÒSwissÓ cheese, when in a government-run cafeteria. No, what I REALLY meant to say was, if thatÕs not an indication of campaign donations in action, what is? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:47:09 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) At 01:21 PM 1/3/2003 -0800, Gabriel Langfur wrote: >--- Roger Hecht wrote: > > Certainly, one cannot imagine a rock group sponsoring a > > string quartet in > > order to raise money to keep it going. > >I can. > >Why not? No reason why not. I just don't see it happening, certainly not very often. Though a member of the Grateful Dead (I forget which one, not that I know any of them) paid for the Marco Polo recording of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony. (And what a stupendous work that is. Check it out.) The guy was a huge fan of Brian. >How much good could they do in the world if they would live >even a tiny bit more simply and put their money to good >use? Please don't get me started on the unequal distribution of wealth in this country that is getting worse daily and is soon going to get a lot worse. >How many families could they feed? How many children >could they educate? How many string quartets, brass >quintets, jazz orchestras, poetry journals or art museums >could they sponsor? How many indeed. >Maybe I should shut up and take this to a political forum. I know a few. Trust me. You haven't the time. Neither do I, but it never stops me. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:18:28 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) At 04:58 PM 1/3/2003 -0400, sabutin wrote: > Trent >Lott as mainstream instead of right wing, Not THAT right wing. The guy was majority leader of the Senate, after all. And he wasn't born to it. He was elected to it by Senators who knew his record all too well. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:37:15 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Sorry, I'm going politcal was RE: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) > Please don't get me started on the unequal distribution of wealth in this > country that is getting worse daily and is soon going to get a lot worse. > I hate it when this list goes political, but I will be guilty myself for one post. Don't you think the uneven distribution of wealth might have something to do with the uneven distribution of hard work. Many of the professional musicians on this list are probably on the poor side of the wealth distribution, but we all knew going in that playing trombone for a living won't make us wealthy. Those on the list that do something else for a living made that choice for a reason. Don't get mad a successful people because they did thing you didn't, and don't claim that the rich people are all rich because the government holds up the mean greedy corporations. Yes there are some mean greedy corporations, but there are just as many greedy lazy welfare bilkers living off of the mean greedy CEO's taxes. Not all welfare recipients are lazy and greedy, just as not all rich people are mean and greedy. Sorry, I'll stop now. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:26:57 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Info on forthcoming pieces I will be playing the first trombone part of Dvorak's Symphony No. 8 in G in April, and I don't recall even having ever listened to the piece. Does anyone have experience of playing this part who could let me know: (a) Range of the part i.e. best played on alto or tenor? (b) Are the trombones involved in all four movements? It would be useful for me to know these two things at this remove in order to see how I can juggle my various commitments to the best effect. p.s. I hope the poor old tuba player has more to do than in the New World Symphony. He only had about 16 notes to play in the slow movement, all of which doubled the bass trombone - thoughtful part-writing! p.p.s. Would I also be correct in assuming that trombones are required for Borodin's Prince Igor Overture? Many thanks ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:38:12 -0500 From: Steve McGovern Subject: Re: Info on forthcoming pieces Keith, My orchestra is doing the 9th this spring, so the other day, I was browsing the online score at http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/symphonic.html The 8th is there as well as the 9th (and a fair amount of other orchestral scores as well). It's a bit cumbersome to use, but it should be able to answer your questions. Steve Keith Marr wrote: >I will be playing the first trombone part of Dvorak's Symphony No. 8 in G in >April, and I don't recall even having ever listened to the piece. Does >anyone have experience of playing this part who could let me know: > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:41:24 -0600 From: "Michael B. McCreless" Subject: help with excerpt Hi All, I have several of the excerpts of Ein Heldenleben but I need to know which one is in the Keith Brown orchestral excerpts Vol. 2. If anyone has that volume please tell me how the 2nd system on page 11 to top of page 12 goes. In other words what is the beginning notes and rhythm and the ending notes and rhythm so I may extract that from my trombone part that I have. Thanks, Michael McCreless bassbone_mike@alumni.jsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:43:25 -0000 From: Edward Solomon Subject: Re: Info on forthcoming pieces The trombones and tuba are required in movements I and IV in the Dvorak symphony. The first part, although written in alto clef, would normally be played on a tenor trombone and has a tessitura of B (a ninth below middle C) to B (a seventh above middle C). The first movement has a few important passages for first trombone including a very exposed ascent to top B in unison with the horns. The remaining trombones and tuba have a fun time of it, too. I always enjoy playing Dvorak symphonies, irrespective. No. 8 is a lot of fun. Just sit back and enjoy the horns rollicking away with their trills in the last movement! The Prince Igor Overture also requires three trombones and tuba and they have quite a busy time of it, the most involved being the bass trombone. That's a lot of fun to play, too. Enjoy! Ed. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:05:42 -0800 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: Re: Further Destruction ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 5:53 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction Tim Richardson wrote: | Something you might not know about robots in the auto industry: they aren't | (and never were) intended to save labor costs directly. Their "reason for | being" (there's some goofy French phrase that's relevant) is to be more | precise than a human can. I think it's raison d'etre | Anyway, I agree with everybody! but having worked a lot of peon jobs, I | also count our blessings, whether you are a working pro or a fortunate | amateur like me. Gotta go practice. And I Certainly have to agree with that. | Happy New Year, all. Ditto--Galen McQuarrie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:10:23 -0600 From: "Michael B. McCreless" Subject: Thanks Jim Scott Thank You Jim this really helps. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:10:28 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Sorry, I'm going politcal was RE: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) Jeff Albert. > Don't get mad a >successful people because they did thing you didn't, and don't claim >that the rich people are all rich because the government holds up the >mean greedy corporations. Yes there are some mean greedy corporations, >but there are just as many greedy lazy welfare bilkers living off of the >mean greedy CEO's taxes. Not all welfare recipients are lazy and >greedy, just as not all rich people are mean and greedy. > >Sorry, I'll stop now. That's okay. There's no point in being mad at anyone. My only concern is that when wealth becomes too unevenly distributed, civilization suffers. It's a problem faced by many third world countries--a small wealthy class and a huge underclass with few in the middle. We may be heading in that direction, and that's an unpleasant thought. This country was probably at its best when incomes were more evenly distributed. I wouldn't worry too much about welfare bilkers. There aren't many left, compared to the past. Rather, I'd be more concerned about those people working on minimum wage and still not getting by, as I pointed out when I recommended Nickle and Dimed. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:06:40 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession Very well said, Neal!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 21:37:05 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Info on forthcoming pieces Keith, I played the first trombone part of this work in the Asheville, NC, Symphony many years ago when it was still known as the 4th - the G major in any case. It is still one of my favorites to play AND to hear. Trombones only play in the first and fourth movements but the parts are very exciting. There is a very rapid descending scale at the finish that encompasses the entire orchestra so timing of your entrance is critical, other than that I don't remember anything technically formidable. There are a couple of open spots where you get to shine. Incidentally I played this on my 2B (Let's hear it from the small bore crowd!) This is a piece that creates French Horn envy, from the beautiful lyric second movement, which you can sit back, relax and enjoy, to the bells-up, balls-out trills in the last movement. DAMN! I've gotta go put it on right now! (Munch with the BSO) Enjoy! Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Marr" To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Info on forthcoming pieces > I will be playing the first trombone part of Dvorak's Symphony No. 8 in G in > April, and I don't recall even having ever listened to the piece. Does > anyone have experience of playing this part who could let me know: > > (a) Range of the part i.e. best played on alto or tenor? > (b) Are the trombones involved in all four movements? > > It would be useful for me to know these two things at this remove in order > to see how I can juggle my various commitments to the best effect. > > p.s. I hope the poor old tuba player has more to do than in the New World > Symphony. He only had about 16 notes to play in the slow movement, all of > which doubled the bass trombone - thoughtful part-writing! > > p.p.s. Would I also be correct in assuming that trombones are required for > Borodin's Prince Igor Overture? > > Many thanks > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:07:35 -0800 From: emrose79@PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Info on forthcoming pieces uh, Fred...does this mean I would have to get naked??? Fred Hudson wrote: > > > , > balls-out trills in the last movement. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:25:27 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) >"Here! Here!!" > >"Sabutin for President!" > >-D- >www.radionoise.com =========== Not a chance. Look how they treated the last jazz musician to hold that office. (Although he did have a pretty good time...did a good job, too, all in all...) S. > > >At 04:58 PM 1/3/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >>>--- Roger Hecht wrote: >>> >>>> Certainly, one cannot imagine a rock group sponsoring a >>>> string quartet in >>>> order to raise money to keep it going. >>>> >>> >>>I can. >>> >>>Why not? In some ways, the Rolling Stones have acted as >>>sponsors for Michael Davis' career, if only through the act >>>of hiring him consistently, giving him the financial >>>resources and, therefore, freedom from scrambling for a >>>living that most of us go through, to pursue all of his >>>writing & recording. >>> >>>And if I may step up on my soapbox for a second...I read >>>all the time about super-rich athletes and pop stars and >>>actors and such, in articles that celebrate their >>>outrageous levels of conspicuous consumption. Millions of >>>people have seen how Ozzy Osbourne and his family live in >>>their palace; millions of people know how many custom-built >>>cars Shaquille O'Neal has. >>> >>>How much good could they do in the world if they would live >>>even a tiny bit more simply and put their money to good >>>use? How many families could they feed? How many children >>>could they educate? How many string quartets, brass >>>quintets, jazz orchestras, poetry journals or art museums >>>could they sponsor? >>> >>>Maybe I should shut up and take this to a political forum. >>> >>>Gabe >>> >> >>================== >> >> Music IS politics. >> >> How so? >> >> Art is culture. >> >> Culture is politics. (Can you imagine Hitlerian fascism in Cuba? >>The Haitian occult/dictatorship of the Duvaliers in Sweden? Swedish >>socialism in Alabama or Mexico? Not happening.) >> >> Music is art. >> >> Change the art, change the culture (Plato: "When modes of music >>change, fundamental laws of the State always change with them." This >>has always made great sense to me, although I am not at all sure >>which is the chicken and which the egg.) >> >> Music is politics, on both their highest levels., and all of >>us...student trombonists to the highest level musical artists on any >>instrument...are involved in the task of POLITICALLY changing things. >> >> i would make the argument that the bebop revolution and before >>that, the invention and dissemination of jazz, changed the face of >>American culture (and thus American politics) more than any other >>event except the vast immigrations of the late 19th/early 20th >>century. >> >> Want to do a little imagining? >> >> Imagine America,...all of the culture, including the political >>one...w/out Louis Armstrong and his inheritors. >> >> Go on...I dare you. >> >> No roaring '20s, no Warner Brothers cartoons, no swing era, Trent >>Lott as mainstream instead of right wing, no entrance into WW II, >>quite possibly no integration, no youth cultures as we have known >>them, no worldwide American culture boom...there's a great book in >>there somewhere... >> >> Music IS politics, and to some degree this list is quite properly >>a "political forum".. >> >> S. >> >> >>-- >>(Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor >>of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used >>lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at >> [still under construction], email us at >>, or call us at [718] 796-4413. By >>appointment only.) -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:26:00 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) >At 04:58 PM 1/3/2003 -0400, sabutin wrote: > >> Trent >>Lott as mainstream instead of right wing, > >Not THAT right wing. The guy was majority leader of the Senate, >after all. And he wasn't born to it. He was elected to it by >Senators who knew his record all too well. > >Roger Hecht ========= My point exactly. S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:19:57 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) >>Look how they treated the last jazz musician to hold that office. >>(Although he did have a pretty good time...did a good job, too, all >>in all...) >> > >Yea, and all those little religious right kids got to find out about >blow jobs, and the like. > >DanP =========== Aw c'mon...you mean you think they didn't know when Bush Sr. was in power? They just thought it had to be a secret., CIA sex. S. > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:20:59 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) >> My point exactly. >> > >But to make such a big deal about it and not include any castigation >of Strom, shows how much it was done for political expediency and in >no way because Republicans are horrified by bigotry. > >DanP ======= Bigotry IS political expediency. S. > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:29:09 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Info on forthcoming pieces Whatever it takes! ;-} ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Info on forthcoming pieces > uh, Fred...does this mean I would have to get naked??? > > Fred Hudson wrote: > > > > > > , > > balls-out trills in the last movement. > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:30:39 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L Subject: Topic Closed (Re: [TBN-L] Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) This thread has wandered quite far from the purpose of this forum (trombones and related issues). Please let this drop and move on. LM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:45:45 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Good Pops Report Just wanted to write in and eat some crow here (listmonitor, this will be short and to the point and not inflamatory): it turns out that the pops concert we played tonight turned out to be a good one! It came out of the blue. I did not know anything about the singer (Linda Eder), or any of the people she brought or the arrangements of Broadway music. But as it turns out, she has a very impressive, unique and listenable voice, the combo she brought was good, the conductor knew what he was doing, the sound man did not go overboard, the charts where done by a former Eastman trombonist so the writing was good (actual bass trombone parts, nice going!). I actually caught myself having a good time :-}> !! The first half program could have been more imaginative, but hey, you can't have everything (just ask the Miami football players). Just wanted to say thanks to those of you who wrote in and kept me from going over to the dark side this week. Randy Campora Baltimore Symphony ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 2 Jan 2003 to 3 Jan 2003 (#2003-4) *************************************************************