From: Automatic digest processor To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 31 Dec 2002 to 1 Jan 2003 (#2003-2) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 00:00:02 -0600 There are 22 messages totalling 1431 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. first gig (2) 2. Further Destruction of a Noble Profession is Attempted 3. Sam Zimmerman (was: first gig) 4. Online Trombone Journal News & Events 5. Musical Influences (2) 6. Rath trombones (was Re: [TBN-L] More brass-related than trombone) 7. More brass-related than trombone (2) 8. music stand light 9. Rath trombones (was Re: [TBN-L] More brass-related than trombone) 10. happy new year x 2 11. "Who played that?" Call for questions! 12. Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) (3) 13. Donald Wells? 14. Info requested: Chickering pianos 15. Why non-transposing? (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:42:09 -0500 From: TRBNTERRY Subject: Re: first gig My very first paid gig was New Years eve, 1951. I was 12 years old. I played 2nd cornet with a 9-piece German Band at the Liederkranz German Club in Reading, PA. The leader was my cornet teacher, by the name of Samuel Zimmerman. We no sooner got set up, than my teacher found a flunkie to run pitchers of beer to the band for the rest of the evening. Even I was drinking the beer. By the end of the second set, my teacher was feeling very little pain, and passed the 1st cornet parts to me. Talk about initiation by fire. I'm the lone survivor of that band. The gig paid $20, the first 20 dollar bill I ever held in my hands. Tonite, I played the 52nd consecutive New Year's. This time it paid $650. I guess all that inspiration from my first gig to keep on practicing didn't go entirely to waste. The money I made tonite will pay the best part of an Urbie Green Martin trombone. Mike Terry "No man is so ignorant as the one who claims he isn't. Life is far too short to become enlightened on all subjects. We are all ignorant, except on different subjects. A musician's training begins at a very early age and lasts a lifetime. Excellence requires many years of hard work and struggle and deserves reward in like manner to the other top-rated professions." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:37:35 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession is Attempted From: "sabutin" > I mean no disrespect to those who do shows as a regular thing...I > mean, I've spent my share of time in the pit myself...but when you > get right down to it, 99% of Broadway playing (and the entire > Broadway musical experience...the actors, singers, dancers, stage > management. etc...) IS an attempt to roboticize human beings. > > Play the exact same thing the exact same way night after night > after night after night, day after day month after year after > decade...??? Tell me about it Sam. When the session scene in London came to a near standstill, I moved to theatreland in the West End of London. Just one week of playing the same show is far more than I can cope with. The only way to relieve the monotony of a long run was to sub in another show while I fixed a sub for mine. Geez, was I glad to get out of that environment! A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:55:00 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Sam Zimmerman (was: first gig) From: "TRBNTERRY" > My very first paid gig was New Years eve, 1951. I was 12 years old. I > played 2nd cornet with a 9-piece German Band at the Liederkranz German > Club in Reading, PA. The leader was my cornet teacher, by the name of > Samuel Zimmerman. Hey Mike, I know Sam Zimmerman! I was only a toddler ducking doodlebug bombs in London during WW2 when I first met him. My dad was principle cornettist with the British Grenadier Guards band playing in Hyde Park between air raids when Sam introduced himself. Sam was stationed in London with one of the US army bands (I don't remember which) thro'out the war and became lifelong buddies with my dad. This is surely a small world. Sadly, we heard that Sam passed away about 5 years ago. My dad is still going strong at 91 and I have just been listening to him playing cornet duets with my 19 year old son. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 08:47:33 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Online Trombone Journal News & Events The Online Trombone Journal's "Sliding Times" has been updated with several new vacancies and one new graduate assistantship opportunity. This is available online at http://www.trombone.org/news/ If you are looking to publicize your event, please visit http://www.trombone.org/events/ to add your information. In addition, the OTJ is currently accepting applications for a News & Events page coordinator. Please contact me via e-mail to chris@trombone.org if you would be interested in this volunteer position. Chris -- Chris Waage, Associate Editor The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 10:08:24 -0500 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Musical Influences It would be interesting to know how many of the list did start with the SA. I played Christmas carols on the kettles in Calgary too Jim when my Father was PR there in 1945, 6, 7 and 8. We liked the fact that we got our lunch bought in a restaurant no less. Hard to count all the influences on my career. First my Father who was also a trom player and was smart enough to give me only hints but no push. Then the SA greats, Leidzen, Ball, Coles, Cobb, Arthur Rolls and others along with great Canadians like Clif Gillingham who gave me opportunities and support, Charlie Stunell who lead the Calgary Citadel Junior Band for many many years, taking over from my Father in 1925 and who made playing fun, Bill Habkirk and Eric Sharp who exemplified leadership, Wilf Mountain who exposed me to the great demands of the British contesting bands, Cliff Hunt, a wonderful players' conductor, and latterly, the pro trombone greats loke John Marcellus, Alain Trudel, Joe Alessi and many, many more. Most of the list will never have heard of many of these guys but they were my heroes. Happy New Year to all and great gigs. We do Brahms 1 this spring, another quiet high A. Got the ones in the Schubert 9 so I guess I'll be OK. Dave Buckley. James Scott wrote: > I'm another one who had an SA start. The Calgary Philharmonic section > (plus our best sub) played some Christmas carols for the Army on their > kettles a couple of weeks ago - it was a blast, esp. since two of us had > our start with SA bands. > > It's an hour or so before New Years here - but I'll wish everyone the > best of the season anyway! Happy New Year! > > Jim Scott > > Corliss wrote: > > >I started with the Salvation Army. > > > >Richard Coirliss > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Keith Marr" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:27 AM > >Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Musical Influences > > > > > > > > > >>>I find it encouraging to read about all the musicians who got their > >>> > >>> > >start > > > > > >>in > >> > >> > >>>a church. > >>> > >>> > >>Following on from this, I wonder just how many brass players started in > >> > >> > >the > > > > > >>Salvation Army. Yes, I did! I remember that pre-war S&A factory peashooter > >>with some affection, even though it was tough trying to get any tone from > >>it. > >> > >>Other musical influences? In no particular order: Tamla Mowtown, > >>Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Arvo Part, Alan Hovhaness, Don Lusher, Dudley Bright, > >>Denis Wick, little cup cakes (. . . er no, error crept in there!), > >>Guinness, God, Steve Reich, and, of course, JJ. > >> > >>Also, without wanting to sound like a creep, this list is a major > >> > >> > >influence > > > > > >>now. I didn't play for about eight years and joined up when I started > >>playing again. This very lively and knowledgeable list brought me up to > >> > >> > >date > > > > > >>with issues very quickly. > >>------------------------ > >>Keith in Bb/F/D > >>www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > >> > >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:18:32 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Musical Influences Hi all... Happy New Year !!! I keeping w/the tendency to think in broad strokes that accompanies a New Year...resolutions, goals, etc...I would like to add a bit from the introduction to my method book. I had been talking about some of the specific individuals who had most affected me as a musician, and then said: "...In a larger sense, however, my real teachers have been all the American (and particularly New York) trombonists, brass players, musicians, arrangers and composers who have labored for over a century in big bands, Broadway pits, club date bands, show business orchestras, recording, radio, movie, and television studios, symphony orchestras, concert bands, and jazz, rock and latin groups to produce this particularly American approach. To each of them I offer my heartfelt gratitude and admiration..." Now whether we are "American", or not, no matter what styles of music we play, this is the bottom line as far as our influences are concerned. For several centuries people just like you and me (some famous, most relatively anonymous) have been making small and ongoing decisions about how long this eighth note will be, where the vibrato starts and ends, just which of the infinity of sounds best fits a given idiom or piece...truly a collective effort. This process resembles the growth of a language. From Chaucer through Mamet or Mailer, there have been billions of people speaking the English language about whom we will never hear...but it has been in their mouths that the real work was done. The experts merely observe and refine. Here's to the ones who codified "swing", the ones who invented the sforzando, who found a way to make a slide good enough to use slide vibrato, who practiced to get their sound "just so"...a little ancestor worship, musician style please=8A So Happy New Year, one and all. You're doing the same thing for the next generations of fools who decide to try to make music. Have a good year...you deserve it. Later... Sam -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:18:51 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: first gig Now that sounds like a fun first New Year's Eve gig! -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of TRBNTERRY Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:42 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] first gig My very first paid gig was New Years eve, 1951. I was 12 years old. I played 2nd cornet with a 9-piece German Band at the Liederkranz German Club in Reading, PA. The leader was my cornet teacher, by the name of Samuel Zimmerman. We no sooner got set up, than my teacher found a flunkie to run pitchers of beer to the band for the rest of the evening. Even I was drinking the beer. By the end of the second set, my teacher was feeling very little pain, and passed the 1st cornet parts to me. Talk about initiation by fire. I'm the lone survivor of that band. The gig paid $20, the first 20 dollar bill I ever held in my hands. Tonite, I played the 52nd consecutive New Year's. This time it paid $650. I guess all that inspiration from my first gig to keep on practicing didn't go entirely to waste. The money I made tonite will pay the best part of an Urbie Green Martin trombone. Mike Terry "No man is so ignorant as the one who claims he isn't. Life is far too short to become enlightened on all subjects. We are all ignorant, except on different subjects. A musician's training begins at a very early age and lasts a lifetime. Excellence requires many years of hard work and struggle and deserves reward in like manner to the other top-rated professions." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:01:17 +0100 From: Simon Bailey Subject: Rath trombones (was Re: [TBN-L] More brass-related than trombone) On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 03:39, Keith Marr wrote: > I've not had any personal experience of play Raths, but I do know that they > are now the preferred choice of the British Military (last time I asked them > about lead times for their 2-valve bass they'd just taken an order for nine > from the Army!), so they can't be too shabby. The new 2-valve dependent bass > with tuning in the slide sounds really interesting. It's due out early this > year. > > I would have thought that a bespoke construction company like Rath would > have the facility to let you go in and try stuff on the premises, although I > agree it's better if you can get things on approval. Considering the amount > we bassers are expected to shell out these days I don't regard that as > unreasonable. Always worth asking them anyway. Depends where you are too I > suppose, Raths are in Huddersfield. rath have a small showroom in their factory. i was passing by huddersfield last week and had arranged to stop by to check out the trombones. you can blow the trombones to your hearts content on the premises. afaik, douglas yeo has currently got one of the rath bass trombones for evaluation. mick rath also showed me the prototype of the new bass bone they're making. i'm not a bass bonist, but the in slide tuning looks really interesting, albeit making the slide a little heavy for my taste. he did say it's modelled loosely on an older bass trombone, but the name has slipped my mind. it was mentioned at one time on this list though... on an aside, the trombones i did try out there are amazing. i was trying the large bore tenor with three different bells. the sound is very clear and open -- my bach 42 which i currently play sounds very stuffy in comparison... the slide is the best i have ever held. it is very smooth, very very fast, and, because of the very small tolerances rath has, it has absolutely no "wobble" (for lack of a better word). the only bone i had to pick with this trombone, is that i'm personally used to the wide slide the bach 42 has. the rath slide is the same size as a yamaha slide, but i have big hands and like the wider slide. however, mick did say that if i want a wider slide they can make one. if anybody gets a chance to drop by the rath factory in huddersfield, i can only recommend you do. mick himself is very friendly, as are his staff. the trombones are the best i have ever heard or played, and he has an interesting museum-like collection of old trombones in the showroom. needless to say, the next trombone i get is going to be a rath... *g* greetings, simon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:32:50 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" Subject: Re: More brass-related than trombone The horns used the old style Vienna Horns, They use a crook and are not rotary valved. They use Berliner pumpen valves. Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Izzo" To: Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 11:42 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] More brass-related than trombone > John, > > --- John Beers wrote: > > I was watching a video of the Wiener Philharmoniker > > on TV tonight on > > which they were playing Strauss. They played the > > Blue Danube Waltz and > > the Radetzky march. The recording was made in 1999, > > according to the > > credits. The horn player seemed to have an extra > > crook attached to their > > horns, perhaps coming from the mouthpiece receiver, > > something that I > > had never seen before. > > Were they Natural Horns? Or Valved Horns? > A lot of the European Hornists play Trimple Horns > these days (F/Bb/F) as opposed to the one we're used > to -Double Horns (F/Bb) > > Also, moving the topic to > > even more tangential > > areas, the oboist had an insert between his reed and > > the reed receiver, > > made of some sort of white, shiny material, perhaps > > plastic or ivory. What > > was the purpose of that, just out of curiosity? > > Could be several things, possibly playing an Oboe > d'Caccia part on an orchestral Oboe (G part on a C > instrument), or otherwise lowering the pitch for some > reason. I didn't see it, so I don't know exactly. > > > Tom > > > ===== > Tom Izzo > Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire > Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra > Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion > http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ > (630) 983-1985 > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:40:30 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" Subject: Re: music stand light Tried it, not bright enough for me Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] music stand light > --- John McGrath wrote: > > Does anyone on the list know of agood battery operated > > light that is > > available? Jack McGrath > > The Mighty Bright Stand Light (which is exactly the same > thing as the Itty Bitty Book Light) works just fine, and > it's so cheap - $9 - you could carry around 2 or 3 of them. > The only drawback is that it uses 4 AA batteries, and > you'll need to change them pretty often if you use it a > lot. > > Gabe > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:27:53 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: More brass-related than trombone From: "Joe L. Norcross" > They use Berliner pumpen valves. Ja, ich bin ein Berliner pumpen um-pah spieler too. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:43:36 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Rath trombones (was Re: [TBN-L] More brass-related than trombone) Thanks for that Simon, most interesting. I will definitely try to organise a visit next time I'm in Yorkshire. I remember someone saying the new Rath was based on an earlier mode too. Was it the Minnick Conn? ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Bailey" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 8:01 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Rath trombones (was Re: [TBN-L] More brass-related than trombone) > rath have a small showroom in their factory. i was passing by > huddersfield last week and had arranged to stop by to check out the > trombones. you can blow the trombones to your hearts content on the > premises. afaik, douglas yeo has currently got one of the rath bass > trombones for evaluation. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:58:07 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: happy new year x 2 In a message dated 12/31/2002 8:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, simon.bailey@UIBK.AC.AT writes: > well, this may be early for the americans and late for everyone else, > but all the same, > > HAPPY NEW YEAR ONE AND ALL. > > may 2003 bring more luck and joy than the preceding years > and may you > all stay in good health. > > good night and good luck, > simon. Actually, that was a little late for this American. I celebrated the New Year in Tokyo, and I guess did so again somewhere over Alaska on the flight home today. Jan. 1 will certainly be the longest day of 2003 for me and the others that were travelling. Have an enriching New Year!!! David Gibson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:01:49 -0800 From: The Millars Subject: "Who played that?" Call for questions! Dear Colleagues: I'd like to inform you of my ongoing research and to invite you to send = in your questions. Please read on! Best, Michael Millar =20 Book project: Los Angeles Studio Brass Players =20 Malcolm McNab has joined me in writing a book on the history of studio = brass players in Los Angeles. The project began in 1998 as part of my = doctoral research. Malcolm has been participating in interviewing and = research for the book since 2000. =20 The book is an oral history, essentially a collection of edited = interviews. Most music history focuses on composers, here the performers = themselves tell the story. We've interviewed a cross-section of great = players, primarily covering the years up until 1980. There will be an = appendix including studio roster lists and other information that = Malcolm has been collecting. It's exciting to have Malcolm on board as = co-author. With his knowledge, historical perspective, and eye for = detail, his impact on the project has been substantial. =20 =20 The players: =20 Interviewed (thus far): =B7 Trumpet: Uan Rasey, Zeke Zarchy, Ollie Mitchell, Tony Terran, = Oscar Brashear. =B7 Trombone: Lloyd Ulyate, Milt Bernhart, Dick Nash, Roy Main, = Chauncey Welsch. =B7 Bass Trombone: George Roberts, Phil Teele, Jeff Reynolds. =B7 Horn: Vince De Rosa, Jack Cave, Jim Decker, Dave Duke. =B7 Tuba: Tommy Johnson, Jim Self. =20 "Who played that?" Send us your questions! =20 Have you always wanted to know who played that = trumpet/trombone/euphonium/horn/tuba solo on a particular film or = television show? Send in your questions to me at:=20 Michael.Millar@colorado.edu We'll answer as many of your inquiries as we can in the appendix of the = book. You can also send questions pertaining to records, but space = limitations may prevent us from providing answers in that category.=20 Malcolm's website: http://www.malcolmmcnab.com/home.html My bio: http://www.colorado.edu/music/entrepreneurs/featured.html =20 PLEASE FEEL FREE TO FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO ALL INTERESTED PARTIES!=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. Entrepreneurship Center for Music University of Colorado College of Music 301 UCB 18th & Euclid Boulder, CO 80309-0301 (303) 735-1272 Fax (303) 492-5619 Michael.Millar@colorado.edu http://www.colorado.edu/music/entrepreneurs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. Valencia, CA (818) 901-6843 FAX (661) 253-2999 bazbone@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:19:26 EST From: Dansatt@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) I agree that Sabutin's post was well written and contained several valid=20 points, but I take issue with some. As a Broadway musician myself (hundreds=20 of performances on Broadway as well as on the road), I disagree with the=20 following: Sabutin says, "99% of Broadway playing (and the entire Broadway musical=20 experience...the actors, singers, dancers, stage management. etc...) IS an=20 attempt to roboticize human beings." While shows must strive to maintain a high level of consistency, I've heard=20= a=20 great deal of inspired and spontaneous playing. I know that I (and many of=20 my colleagues) try to make each show my best, and I challenge myself to play= =20 a "perfect show" every time. Also, there's a lot of great singing on Broadwa= y=20 (Bernadette Peters in "Annie Get Your Gun," Audra McDonald and Brian Stokes=20 Mitchell in "Ragtime" come to mind) as well as spontaneous acting, recently=20 evidenced by Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick in "The Producers". This is=20 what the public is paying a lot of money to see, and for it to be accompanie= d=20 by a live orchestra gives it a truly special quality. Sabutin says, "It makes perfect sense for the producers to go to=20 virtual-whatever-they-can-get-their-hands-on, because the shows are not=20 really "live" anyway. They are just an attempt to extort a few hundred=20 dollars per couple from an overpaid upper-middle class audience and fool the= m=20 into thinking they are seeing something real and exciting. W/very few=20 exceptions, the musicians are bored, the performers are cynical at best, and= =20 the audience obviously wouldn't know the difference between a great performe= r=20 and a total hack." Jim Prindle hit the nail on the head as far as audiences are concerned. =20 You're performing every night for an audience who (at least the great=20 majority of them) are seeing the show for the first time. It IS special,=20 real, and exciting to them...whether or not it is to you. Furthermore, don'= t=20 sell short the audience's perception of quality. Listen to the crowd=20 reaction to Bernadette Peters or Reba McEntyre singing "Annie Get Your Gun,"= =20 and then to soap opera star Susan Lucci singing the same role. The audience= =20 knows what's good and what's not. Generally, I find the level of music=20 making in orchestra pits to be extremely high, notably from trombonists like= =20 Jim Pugh, George Flynn, Jack Schatz, Matt Ingman, Jeff Nelson, Morris=20 Kainuma, Dick Clark, Dan Levine, Larry Farrell and Keith O'Quinn (to name a=20 few of MANY). Naturally, there are exceptions. I know that music directors=20 get frustrated when live musicians (especially subs) don't give them what=20 they want or are used to hearing. Quality control, at least as far as=20 accuracy and consistency is concerned, is a factor here. I remember subbing= =20 one afternoon on "Ragtime" and hearing a first time tuba sub struggle with=20 the book. Not only was he having a hard time with the show itself, but it wa= s=20 painfully obvious that tuba was not his first (or second or third)=20 instrument. As a professional musician, he should have known better than to= =20 take the gig in the first place. For musicians to put themselves in a=20 position like this endangers not only their own livelihood, but that of the=20 rest of the musicians as well. If the music supervisor was listening that=20 afternoon, he probably thought that a virtual tuba player would sound pretty= =20 good right about then! I recently finished a run of the Lion King tour in=20 Ft. Lauderdale, and one afternoon a synth player showed me the "emergency=20 tuba patch" that he has on his keyboard. Apparently, the show doesn't have=20 faith that they'll have a tuba player in every town that can hit a loud solo= =20 pedal C at the end of the first act. So, part of the blame lies with the=20 musicians themselves. For all the great playing, there's also some hacking=20 going on out there, and the show producers are probably tired of it. The sho= w=20 players need to make sure that they are taking care of business. Sabutin says, "=A0If the technology existed that could create a virtual set=20= of=20 three dimensional performers that were so real that they could not be told=20 from live ones, the singers + dancers would be gone too." Then why should audiences leave the house at all? Just rent a DVD of the=20 show. As far as musical theater is concerned, people leave the house to see= =20 something live and special. Computerized music makes it much less special.=20= =20 And who says that you can't tell a virtual orchestra from a live one? Later, Sabutin says, "It wasn't me trying to take the instrument as far as I= =20 can take it, let alone Coltrane or Charlie Parker. So why did they like it?=20 They liked it because they knew that it could change, because it was alive,=20 and because it was well done. Like the trapeze artist doing simple tricks=20 w/out a net, there is always the possibility that something might happen,=20 there is always some element of danger, some real effort, and they feel this= .=20 This is the only answer I can come up with. It is alive." You prove my point. That is why a live performance of a show, with a live=20 orchestra, is better than a virtual anything of the same show. It is alive. Dan Satterwhite ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:18:50 -0500 From: "Daniel E. Beckley" Subject: Donald Wells? Hi all, I'm trying to do a bit of research on Donald Wells, bass trombonist with = Atlanta. Can't seem to locate a bio or anything on him online. Does = anyone have any input? Thanks, Danny Beckley _________________________________________ Daniel E. Beckley Freelance Bass Trombonist, Low Brass Instructor Washington, D.C. Metro Area (703) 366-3483 beckley@beckleyweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:39:11 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Info requested: Chickering pianos Greetings all and happy new year. I am requesting any and all information anyone wishes to share regarding the manufacture and sale of Chickering pianos. The building I live in here in Boston was Jonas Chickering's second factory (the first one burned to the ground) and was completed in 1854. Starting in May 2003 we will kick off a year-long celebration, culminating in the 150th anniversary of the building. It's all artist lofts now and is on the National Register of Historic Places. Turned into artist lofts in 1974, the building has been home to the likes of Kevin Eubanks, Pat Martino, Alyrio Lyma, Don Byron, members of Blue Man Group, and even Sigourney Weaver, among many others. As part of our celebration we plan to create an artists' website and historical timeline. While we do have some information, it's spotty at best. If anyone has any information (or can point me to further resources) regarding these historic instruments, it would be much appreciated. I understand that Steinway (which now owns the Chickering name) has recently reintroduced a Chickering model into their line and we are aware of that. We are most interested in information from 1854 until the company moved out of here in 1909. I would also appreciate if anyone happens to have any further information on this building (from any time period). Mandatory trombone content: I practice bass trombone here and am creating several trombone-based websites that you'll all be seeing soon. And Kevin Eubanks' brother is Robin. Thanks in advance for any and all responses. Best, ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:44:30 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Why non-transposing? Dan, > > > WhyÉÉ..TomÕs got so many trombones that he doesnÕt > even bother with that > tuning slides thingy. He just grabs another > trombone. Right Tom? hahhahahah NO!!!!!!!!!!! Not exactly. LOL Different sounds for different folks, er, music. :-) Altos are never in Bb, Basses never in A........etc. Tom > > DanP > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU = > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:56:48 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Why non-transposing? Hi Jay & all, > alan partis wrote: > > > On a somewhat different question, why is the C > major scale the 'basic' > > scale? Why not A since it is the start of the > alphabet? Why aren't we all > > referencing middle A (440 Hz) as the starting > point for everything? > > --- Jay Heltzer wrote: > > Although you have a good theory with this, trying to > explain physics to > younger players learning the scales is quite the > challenge. Furthermore, if I > were to try to explain the physics of it all, my > brain would melt into cheese > whiz. I guess that C is the basic scale (other than > Bb) since its the easiest > key signature to remember and deal with. > > However, I wish I knew a cure for Bb-itis. You > know, the dreaded disease that > causes people (typically in the 11-18 year old > group) to play any piece of > music in Bb, despite the number or lack of > accidentals - which were put there > on purpose - in the key signature. Oh, for sure!!!!!!! But we have to go to the source. We NEED to convince elemenary school band directors and ALL elementary band music publishers that all instruments need to learn ASAP that the instruments can & do play in more than 1 key!!! Tom happy and healthy new year to everyone on > the list! > > Jay Heltzer Ditto, Tom ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:47:05 -0800 From: Andrew Michael Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) As an audience member at many plays, I have to agree with the idea that it is the live performance that makes it special. However, there has been a trend toward plays that are more spectacle than thought provoking theater and many of these have been rather huge hits (E.g. Phantom, Beauty and the Beast) and I can imagine that playing these becomes rather mechanistic. However, I've heard many actors say that they enjoy playing shows over and over again because every night is different. An extreme example of that is "Mystery of Edwin Druid" where the actors would often play each night to see if they could control the audience voting (for the disguised detective and murderer). They were usually successful and this sort of variation is similar to the varying interpretations we can bring to our performances. So, it is unfortunate if this is happening on stage but is being stifled in the pit. I can imagine that out of New York there may be a big difference between the Broadway touring shows that are in and out of town for a week or a month and are recreating the Broadway experience and true regional theater which is trying to bring their own company flavor to a show. Personally, my favorite viewing experiences are on Broadway for the sheer quality of the performances and local companies while back home in California. One of our most interesting experiences was seeing Mystery of Edwin Druid on Broadway with Peter Rose and Loretta Swit and then seeing it again with a local company in California. Seeing a group of actors we knew well play a repertory company doing a play added a level that wasn't there on Broadway, but the quality on Broadway was phenomenal. We don't get up to San Francisco for touring companies very often. We also go to more concerts and plays than movies (by a lot). As a performer, I agree that playing something over and over again does not appeal to me. So, I do not pursue local musical theater gigs. And that's for short runs of 10 to 15 performances! But actors, even film actors, go and do long runs for the joy of being live in front of an audience. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. If I had to make a living out of music, I suppose I would do shows. One of the reasons I became a scientist is because we keep getting to do new things. Finally, I hope the plan to fight these developments includes a strong outreach to the musical theater audience. Signatures taken in line at TKTS are likely to matter more than the voice of a lot of musicians. Would Playbill accept an ad about this? Maybe mailings using the subscription lists of local regional theater companies would get the word out to theater lovers. I hope we'll get an announcement when the web site is active so we can distribute the news to others. Cheers, Andy Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 03:14:07 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Why non-transposing? > > WhyÉÉ..TomÕs got so many trombones that he doesnÕt > > even bother with that > > tuning slides thingy. He just grabs another > > trombone. Right Tom? > >hahhahahah NO!!!!!!!!!!! Not exactly. >LOL > >Different sounds for different folks, er, music. :-) >Altos are never in Bb, Basses never in A........etc. >Tom OK, IÕll admit that I was just trying to add to the mythology surrounding your trombone collection. I mostly play one trombone. I just alter my mouthpiece or solder on parts from other trombones, to change the sound of that one trombone. DanP _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:59:15 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Further Destruction of a Noble Profession (long) >I agree that Sabutin's post was well written and contained several valid >points, but I take issue with some. As a Broadway musician myself (hundreds >of performances on Broadway as well as on the road), I disagree with the >following: > >Sabutin says, "99% of Broadway playing (and the entire Broadway musical >experience...the actors, singers, dancers, stage management. etc...) IS an >attempt to roboticize human beings." ================= I am going to take this point by point. Perhaps I exaggerated. Make it 98%, 97%... I have been in B'way pits, mostly as a sub, at least 1000 times over the past 30 years. In almost all of those experiences besides the possible exception of the jazz oriented shows like "Sophisticated Ladies", the SLIGHTEST originality from either the musicians or the stage performers after the style of the original show has been established is actively discouraged. Note for note, sound for sound, move for move, the idea is to repeat last night's performance (and the night's before that and the night's before that ad infinitum) as exactly and as inflexibly as possible. This is the way it works, and given the size and complexity of the system, this is the way it works best. Like an assembly line, variation is discouraged. I am not exactly criticizing" this system, merely remarking on its characteristics. If this, like an assembly line is not an attempt at roboticization, then I do not know what is. The human tends towards change; the system tends towards repetition, and in the interests of consistency and repeatability, the system wins. So it goes...and AS it goes, so go the jobs when technology advances to the point where the individual can be replaced by a simpler, cheaper and less variable component. ================================== > >While shows must strive to maintain a high level of consistency, I've heard a >great deal of inspired and spontaneous playing. ============== I've heard very little, myself. In fact, I can count on the fingers of my hands truly "inspired" playing I have heard on B'way...Johnny Frosk and Ronnie Zito in "Chicago", Britt Woodman and Norris Turney and Barry Lee Hall and Art Baron in "Sophisticated Ladies", Ruth Brown in "Blues In the Night"...very damned few, and not much of that given the hours those players spent doing the gig. A phrase here,, a phrase there...that's about it. Otherwise...same old same old.... =============== > I know that I (and many of >my colleagues) try to make each show my best, and I challenge myself to play >a "perfect show" every time. ===================== I agree, and there is a great deal to be said for the perfection of "craft". But I am talking about something else. A high end robot is the ESSENCE of craft. All I am saying is that if you "choose" (and I am not so sure that ANY of us really "choose" much...circi=umstances do most of the choosing) to do a gig where you are liable to replacement by technology, do not be surprised when it happens. ============== >Also, there's a lot of great singing on Broadway >(Bernadette Peters in "Annie Get Your Gun," Audra McDonald and Brian Stokes >Mitchell in "Ragtime" come to mind) as well as spontaneous acting, recently >evidenced by Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick in "The Producers". This is >what the public is paying a lot of money to see, and for it to be accompanied >by a live orchestra gives it a truly special quality. ============ Man...it is rare as hen's teeth. For every Bernadette Peters there are 40 hacks w/no soul and not even a working knowledge of pitch or time. You know it if you've spent any time on the scene, and I know it too. (I won't even MENTION the conductors...) I have spent time in pits where when the dancers tried to execute a tap dance break, it sounded just exactly like coal being dumped down a chute, and I have heard singer after singer after singer w/about as much concept of pitch as a badly operated chain saw. C'mon... ===================== > >Sabutin says, "It makes perfect sense for the producers to go to >virtual-whatever-they-can-get-their-hands-on, because the shows are not >really "live" anyway. They are just an attempt to extort a few hundred >dollars per couple from an overpaid upper-middle class audience and fool them >into thinking they are seeing something real and exciting. W/very few >exceptions, the musicians are bored, the performers are cynical at best, and >the audience obviously wouldn't know the difference between a great performer >and a total hack." > >Jim Prindle hit the nail on the head as far as audiences are concerned. >You're performing every night for an audience who (at least the great >majority of them) are seeing the show for the first time. It IS special, >real, and exciting to them...whether or not it is to you. Furthermore, don't >sell short the audience's perception of quality. Listen to the crowd >reaction to Bernadette Peters or Reba McEntyre singing "Annie Get Your Gun," >and then to soap opera star Susan Lucci singing the same role. The audience >knows what's good and what's not. Generally, I find the level of music >making in orchestra pits to be extremely high, notably from trombonists like >Jim Pugh, George Flynn, Jack Schatz, Matt Ingman, Jeff Nelson, Morris >Kainuma, Dick Clark, Dan Levine, Larry Farrell and Keith O'Quinn (to name a >few of MANY). Naturally, there are exceptions. I know that music directors >get frustrated when live musicians (especially subs) don't give them what >they want or are used to hearing. Quality control, at least as far as >accuracy and consistency is concerned, is a factor here. I remember subbing >one afternoon on "Ragtime" and hearing a first time tuba sub struggle with >the book. Not only was he having a hard time with the show itself, but it was >painfully obvious that tuba was not his first (or second or third) >instrument. As a professional musician, he should have known better than to >take the gig in the first place. For musicians to put themselves in a >position like this endangers not only their own livelihood, but that of the >rest of the musicians as well. If the music supervisor was listening that >afternoon, he probably thought that a virtual tuba player would sound pretty >good right about then! I recently finished a run of the Lion King tour in >Ft. Lauderdale, and one afternoon a synth player showed me the "emergency >tuba patch" that he has on his keyboard. Apparently, the show doesn't have >faith that they'll have a tuba player in every town that can hit a loud solo >pedal C at the end of the first act. So, part of the blame lies with the >musicians themselves. For all the great playing, there's also some hacking >going on out there, and the show producers are probably tired of it. The show >players need to make sure that they are taking care of business. ========================== I have done that book on both those shows on B'way, and in my opinion, the level of cynicism and "make do w/whatever you can get away with" on both those shows is positively off the scale. The pedal Cs in "Lion King" are among the stupidest general business writing I have ever seen (the original has a FF pedal C solo ending the first act IN A STRAIGHT MUTE ON BASS TROMBONE AFTER A GREAT DEAL OF REST AND A LOT OF TUBA DOUBLING AS WELL....just plain dumb) and the pitch in the pit of "Ragtime" was often almost unbearable. The conductor of "Lion King" appears only on a video screen to many of the musicians, and I have personally witnessed total breakdowns of playing of various inner parts...absolute failure to even play the notes...that the conductor appeared to not even NOTICE. What does that say to the musicians? It says that their parts are not really important, and indeed they are not. That is why they are so replaceable. If those audiences REALLY wanted excellence, they would be flocking to the Vanguard or Birdland or any number of other venues in the city...jazz or otherwise... to hear the real thing. I just watched "Imaginary Friends" on B'way in preparation for subbing on it...a truly imaginative, original, and creative theater piece w/music as opposed to the schlock that dominates Walt Disney's Great White Way today ...and there were about 250 people in the audience. The audiences don't WANT to think...they want "The King of Queens" or "Survivor"or a safe '30s or '50s revival w/words and music, double life size and in 3D. And that's what they get. ======================== > >Sabutin says, " If the technology existed that could create a virtual set of >three dimensional performers that were so real that they could not be told >from live ones, the singers + dancers would be gone too." > >Then why should audiences leave the house at all? ================ Good question. ==================== > Just rent a DVD of the >show. ================== But the show is bigger. And SO much more expensive. (Conspicuous consumption, don'cha know...) ================ > As far as musical theater is concerned, people leave the house to see >something live and special. Computerized music makes it much less special. >And who says that you can't tell a virtual orchestra from a live one? ================ Man, I have sat in the audience of shows and wondered that myself. I have heard musicians whose sound I know intimately distorted or muffled to the point of absolute unrecognizability by stagehands masquerading as sound engineers, and have sat in pits so badly designed and organized that Jascha Heifetz or Tommy Dorsey would have sounded bad. ================== > >Later, Sabutin says, "It wasn't me trying to take the instrument as far as I >can take it, let alone Coltrane or Charlie Parker. So why did they like it? >They liked it because they knew that it could change, because it was alive, >and because it was well done. Like the trapeze artist doing simple tricks >w/out a net, there is always the possibility that something might happen, >there is always some element of danger, some real effort, and they feel this. >This is the only answer I can come up with. It is alive." > >You prove my point. That is why a live performance of a show, with a live >orchestra, is better than a virtual anything of the same show. It is alive. =============== In most cases, it is NOT alive...it is bad music played by rote for money. I have no quarrel w/the people who by financial necessity are forced to do this work...they make the best of it, and they are my friends and models, many of them. You mention Jim Pugh, George Flynn, Jack Schatz, Matt Ingman, Jeff Nelson, Morris Kainuma, Dick Clark, Dan Levine, Larry Farrell and Keith O'Quinn. Many of these people are guys I came up with, friends. I have been their roommate, their drinking buddy, and I have played gig after creative gig w/many of them. Geat players. Ask any of them if they would trade their B'way work for a gig where they could play what THEY want and still make a living, a gig where they were not forced to deal w/a dehumanizing, rote experience night after night. To a man, they would be gone in a minute if they could have enough security to take care of their families. Guaranteed. As I said, I have no quarrel w/these people. In fact, I recently posted something on the list about how much we all owe to the musicians of the last several hundred years who have done similar work. They are in the trenches, digging out common practice idioms. I love and respect them one and all. But I feel bad for them too, If you are involved in this scene...for God's sake, go in w/your eyes wide open. There is no security i craft that is replaceable by technology. I have seen it happen in the studio scene, and it is very likely to happen on B'way as well. The railroad fought a rearguard battle against the same thing as trains got more efficient. Ain't no more brakemen happening either, and Flint Michigan (home of the handcraft assembly line auto worker) is a ghost town too. C'est la guerre. Sorry...find a way to use that marvelous craft that cannot be replaced by technology, or prepare to be gone. Later... S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 31 Dec 2002 to 1 Jan 2003 (#2003-2) **************************************************************