Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 11 Dec 2002 to 12 Dec 2002 (#2002-152) There are 56 messages totalling 2454 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. King 607-F Frankenbone (5) 2. My New 1936 Olds Doesn't Have a Slide Lock ... (2) 3. Yeo's statement on equipment (2) 4. Celebrity Endorsements (3) 5. endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment (9) 6. Maestro Trombone (4) 7. Valve wrap (2) 8. Valve Rap (3) 9. Standards (4) 10. Was endorsements: Now Casa Loma 11. Schilke 60 Modification (Thanks Danny Satterwhite) (2) 12. Casa Loma Bone (4) 13. Fw: Re: [TBN-L] Valve Rap (2) 14. Shires Bass Bell for sale 15. Schilke 60 Modification (4) 16. Thanks Wayne 17. Schilke 60 Modifications 18. Fw: [TBN-L] Casa Loma Bone 19. Need Parts! 20. Old horns, mouthpieces and such (2) 21. FYI on copyright 22. useless gadget, hour meter /duty cycle meter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:13:09 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: King 607-F Frankenbone D.J., > > Then I tried to remove the bell flair on the 607-F. It oozed solder, >but I > > couldn’t get it free from the ferrule. I don't have a problem taking the cross-braces off. But I can't get the bell flair loose from the ferrule that attaches it to the tuning slide tubing. DanP _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:18:06 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: My New 1936 Olds Doesn't Have a Slide Lock ... Monty It would help to know how your prosthesis attaches to the trombone. i.e. do you have the ability to grip with it or is it a simply one-piece hook. I assume you cannot grip with it or I suppose you would be able to do much the same as us two-handed guys. So I would suggest if you cannot grip to practice hooking over the slide brace and cradling the horn inside your arm to use the waterkey. This might be a bit of a contortion though. Although in a sense it would spoil the original horn to fit a slide lock there may be a repairman who knows of a way, and there may be a style of lock contemporary to the horn anyway. That's another idea. Hope that helps, and go with that dixie sound, bet the horn sounds lovely. Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monte B. Price" To: Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:31 AM Subject: [TBN-L] My New 1936 Olds Doesn't Have a Slide Lock ... > I just took delivery of what I think is a 1936-37 Olds Self-Balancing > Trombone in really good shape. It uses a friction connection to attach > slide to bell, and it has no slide lock. The slide is smooth and free and > the bell section has no significant dings, so in other words, it's a real > treasure. And it came with a practically new Bach 7C mouthpiece. > > What's the problem, you may ask? I have a hook (prosthesis) instead of a > left hand. My other horns have slide locks, and I have trained myself to > always lock the slide before removing my hand from the slide hand bar, for > instance when I am opening the water key. So, I need to do one of three > things: > > 1. Figure out an impromptu slide locking device > 2. Retrain myself (I guess this assumes I was trained in the first place :) > 3. Hang this neat horn on a wall > > I really hate to consider option 3, since I am trying to attain a 20's/30's > Dixieland sound for a group I play with. Any ideas? > > Monte > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:44:27 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Yeo's statement on equipment Wow this thread has come a long way from my original question about tuning in the slide. It just goes to show how one issue can follow on from another. I can only applaud Doug's principles on the endorsement issue, especially when you hear stories of "professionals" endorsing Brand A and then continuing to play Brand B, but with a Brand A counterweight fitted. Disgusting, hypocritical, money grubbing . . . oh someone else finish the sentence! I've been following the thread closely since my original question and feel that I have learned a great deal. This is some List at times! Thanks guys. Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Yeo's statement on equipment > Too many people have too much invested in certain outcomes with > equipment. Manufactures have to meet a bottom line. People who are > paid to endorse equipment like the money. Band rooms need all those > posters with famous faces on them. I'll say it again: I play what I > play because I like it. I get paid exactly $00.00 to play what I do. > $00.00. I don't sell the trombone I helped design, I don't sell the > mouthpiece I helped design. I wouldn't take money from a > manufacturer if they wanted to give it to be because I'd feel I was > beholden to play the instrument even if I didn't feel like it. We've > been down the endorsement road before. I don't wish to reopen it. > But I mention it because I want it understood that my comments are > honest and not driven by some ulterior motive. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:04:20 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Celebrity Endorsements The subject of the presentation I'm giving at ITG this year, cornetist Walter F. Smith, writes to his family in 1896 (on tour with the Sousa Band) that he has just discovered that while Arthur Pryor endorses J.W. Pepper trombones, Pryor's instrument is not "all Pepper," and that only 2/3 of those listed as Pepper artists are actually playing Pepper instruments. (Smith himself is playing a gold-plated Conn Wonder and a Conn echo). I understand from Lloyd Farrar's presentation on the J.W. Pepper Sousaphone at the Great American Brass Band Festival (last June) that Pepper and Conn engaged in lawsuits over whose instruments were actually used in the Sousa Band. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:33:11 -0800 From: David Guion Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment Gabe Langfur wrote, >> Hear hear Doug! (or is it Here here - can someone please >> tell me?) To which Phil Brink replied, >Hear, hear! Or as I used to see on phone booths, "Hear here". (BTW, Phil is right. Doug said something that Gabe agreed with, so Gabe invited the rest of us to here, uh, uh, hear it.) -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:39:01 -0600 From: Phil Brink Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment Uhhh... Hear, hear! mmm ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Guion" To: ; "Phil Brink" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment > Gabe Langfur wrote, > > >> Hear hear Doug! (or is it Here here - can someone please > >> tell me?) > > To which Phil Brink replied, > > >Hear, hear! > > Or as I used to see on phone booths, "Hear here". > > (BTW, Phil is right. Doug said something that Gabe agreed with, so Gabe invited the rest of us to here, uh, uh, hear it.) > > > > -- > *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* > David Guion > > Who is General Failure? And why is he > reading my hard drive? > > david@trombone.org > > > *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* > > > -- > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:54:17 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment This one's bouncing around so much it feels like a . . . . yeo-yeo. (sorry.......) >Uhhh... Hear, hear! > >mmm >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Guion" >To: ; "Phil Brink" >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:33 AM >Subject: Re: [TBN-L] endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment > > >> Gabe Langfur wrote, >> >> >> Hear hear Doug! (or is it Here here - can someone please >> >> tell me?) >> >> To which Phil Brink replied, >> >> >Hear, hear! >> >> Or as I used to see on phone booths, "Hear here". >> >> (BTW, Phil is right. Doug said something that Gabe agreed with, so Gabe >invited the rest of us to here, uh, uh, hear it.) >> >> >> >> -- >> *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* >> David Guion >> >> Who is General Failure? And why is he >> reading my hard drive? >> >> david@trombone.org >> >> >> *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* >> >> >> -- >> -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:10:46 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Celebrity Endorsements >The subject of the presentation I'm giving at ITG this year, cornetist >Walter F. Smith, writes to his family in 1896 (on tour with the Sousa >Band) that he has just discovered that while Arthur Pryor endorses J.W. >Pepper trombones, Pryor's instrument is not "all Pepper," and that only >2/3 of those listed as Pepper artists are actually playing Pepper >instruments. (Smith himself is playing a gold-plated Conn Wonder and a >Conn echo). > >I understand from Lloyd Farrar's presentation on the J.W. Pepper >Sousaphone at the Great American Brass Band Festival (last June) that >Pepper and Conn engaged in lawsuits over whose instruments were actually >used in the Sousa Band. > >Carole Nowicke >cnowicke@indiana.edu ============= Hi Carole... Nothing changes... Today, there is at least one major trombone endorser whose horn is al LEAST 50 years old and bears about the same resemblance to the brand as a'50s Mercedes does to a Hyundai, and innumerable endorsers whose horns, although they are contemporary and built by the brand they endorse, are so heavily modified as to be unavailable to any civilian walking in and buying a horn. (Stealth technology. don'cha know...) Money talks, ALMOST nobody walks, and there is nothing new under the sun. Caveat emptor. S. P.S. Come to think of it, I have a copy of a late '20s Conn catalog w/about 40 endorsements, and one of the endorsers goes off about this same thing. Like Doug, he says he refuses to take anything from them and only plays the horn because it is the one that plays the way he wants a trombone to play. I also have two ads featuring the trombone section from Glen Grey and the Casa Loma Orchestra (a VERY hip swing band, by the way...technically some of the most difficult music I have ever played, and very original), one for Bach and another...same players...for Conn. -- (Sam Burtis, proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:06:54 -0600 From: Todd Slothower Subject: Re: Maestro Trombone Chinese trombone = bad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:09:59 -0500 From: Keith Davis Subject: Re: Valve wrap At 12:00 AM 12/12/2002 -0600, Doug Yeo wrote: >But I think that most of the time when it comes to equipment, we're all >too anal-retentive. >If it feels good and sounds good, then it is good. For you. Amen. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:58:56 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Valve Rap gimme a horn with a horn to fulfil my destiny that i was born pput antlers on my head and a gold plated sled !!!!!! i want straight pipes on my ride so i can play with pride it can be new or it can be olde it can be loud and bold or it canbe quiet like the gray cat in the nite dull bell or shiney please anything but whiney im just having trouble to relate cause i drink my horns straight !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh give me a horn with lotsa tubes played buy girls gone wild w b//////// hi ho trigger away the masked man and rudolph are on his way to bring dreams of playing sugarplum fairies and song and tones that are very very lowwwwww and long im tired of waiting ----and anticipating counting all these rests is not enovating well what else can be do to the rotor how about a solor powerd motor ??????????? this thread would be nothin without eqqqquipment freaks just goes to prove there is somethin besides computer geeks valve rap valve rap closed or open faster than st nick on brahams or chopin valve rap valve rap thats a weighty subject fit for a long winters ---------------nap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keith Davis wrote: > At 12:00 AM 12/12/2002 -0600, Doug Yeo wrote: > >But I think that most of the time when it comes to equipment, we're all > >too anal-retentive. > >If it feels good and sounds good, then it is good. For you. > > Amen. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:01:20 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Standards The talk about equipment, endorsements and such, combined with a high volume of private email generated from my website on the subject of excellence and standards, reminds me of something I've known of for many years but which I've never mentioned on the list. It's all about honesty. In 1983, professor Jacob Neusner of Brown University published a commencement address in Brown University's "The Daily Herald" (June 12, 1983). It has subsequently been reprinted in many publications including "Elements of Argument" (Fifth Edition), edited by Annette T. Rottenberg. The ensuing controversy resulted in Neusner not giving the address at commencement; he left Brown in 1990 for teaching positions at the University of South Florida and Bard College. See it at: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~breslin/texts/neusner_graduates_didnt_hear.html If you haven't read it, you should. If you have read it, you should read it again. Anyone involved in education on any level knows what this is about. When a person complains that the road to excellence is too hard, this is something to put under his pillow. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:58:14 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Valve Rap I hereby nominate DJ as the Poet Laureate of Trombone-L. ~RC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:13:15 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Was endorsements: Now Casa Loma On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, sabutin wrote: > the way he wants a trombone to play. I also have two ads featuring > the trombone section from Glen Grey and the Casa Loma Orchestra (a > VERY hip swing band, by the way...technically some of the most > difficult music I have ever played, and very original), one for Bach > and another...same players...for Conn. Sam, you interest me strangely, depending upon the year those photos were taken. I need to write to the archives at Northeastern U. (which has Glen Gray's papers) and get photocopies of several photos of the pre-Casa Loma "Orange Blossom Orchestra" which played at the Greystone Ballroom in Detroit. Oscar LaGasse' (who was later tubist in the Detroit Symphony) played tuba and bass with the Orange Blossoms before they moved to Canada and changed their name to the Casa Loma Orchestra. He had teaching positions and some other work in Detroit and did not go with them. I'm supposed to write a memorial article about Mr. LaGasse' for the ITEA journal, which will use the oral history interview we conducted a couple of years ago as the primary text source. I've also talked with his former trombone colleagues, Robert C. Jones and Joseph Skrzynski, plus oboist Harold Hall. Now I need to locate photos of Oscar with the Orange Blossoms, maybe the Michigan Theatre orchestra, and from the WWJ Orchestra and their morning band, the "Sophisticats." He showed me copies of these photos during the interview, so photos exist, it's just a matter of finding copies elsewhere. I have a small photo of Oscar with Elmer Janes [NB: who also played with Robert Jones in the Civic], but no other photos taken during Oscar's professional career. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:19:46 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: King 607-F Frankenbone King Bells tend to fit TIGHT. Best advice is to have a trombone peg (you can get one from ferrees) in a vice and swedge the bell onto that tightly. Once you break the bell flange free, heat the crap out of the ferrule, then twist against the bell. It should twist off after a few dozen back-and-forth twists. Be carful to do it straight - you don't want to stretch the ferule. Good luck, J.c. Sherman > Y’all, > > After carefully reading and understanding Doug’s post, I decided that > tonight was the night to turn my King 607-F in the Frankenbone. > > I rechecked and sure enough, a Buescher Aristocrat bell would fit the King. > > I checked out which of my Buescher Aristocrat bells I preferred with my > 607-F slide, removed the bell flair and preceded to remove the finish, > polish it up and remove a few dents. > > Then I tried to remove the bell flair on the 607-F. It oozed solder, but I > couldn’t get it free from the ferrule. > > For the short term, my 607-F is back together and “safe”. But I sure wish I > could have put that gorgeous-sounding Aristocrat bell on the 607-F. > > So, do any of you, out there, know if there’s a trick to taking the bell > flair off of a King 607-F? > > Inquiring minds… > > DanP > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:21:30 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Celebrity Endorsements ---snip--- > >Sam; >Do you remember the "Alblum of Stars" that Conn used to print? >There were several pictures of trombonists playing various models of >Conn trombones that were holding or playing a different brand. >WEG Never saw it. S. -- (Sam Burtis, proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:31:51 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Standards Professor Neusner makes a good argument for excellence and standards. His ideas are appropos to the business world in today's environment. The old days of life-time employment are gone. There are no guarantees for employment. If an employee doesn't perform, then we look for their replacements. I will be going to a job fair soon at the request of the engineering director who wants me to look for new talent for his department. What he doesn't realize is I will also be looking for his replacement, at the request of his VP. He does not meet the standards set by the VP. It's a cruel world and I've noticed young people out of college find it confusing sometimes. I would think the music world is not that much different. You miss too many notes and someone is looking to replace you. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Yeo [mailto:dyeo@RCN.COM] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:01 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Standards The talk about equipment, endorsements and such, combined with a high volume of private email generated from my website on the subject of excellence and standards, reminds me of something I've known of for many years but which I've never mentioned on the list. It's all about honesty. In 1983, professor Jacob Neusner of Brown University published a commencement address in Brown University's "The Daily Herald" (June 12, 1983). It has subsequently been reprinted in many publications including "Elements of Argument" (Fifth Edition), edited by Annette T. Rottenberg. The ensuing controversy resulted in Neusner not giving the address at commencement; he left Brown in 1990 for teaching positions at the University of South Florida and Bard College. See it at: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~breslin/texts/neusner_graduates_didnt_hear.html If you haven't read it, you should. If you have read it, you should read it again. Anyone involved in education on any level knows what this is about. When a person complains that the road to excellence is too hard, this is something to put under his pillow. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:23:18 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Maestro Trombone Todd Slothower wrote: >Chinese trombone = bad to which I say: Amelican trombone = good :-) Sorry -- I couldn't resist. Wanna talk the "classics"? Wanna hear a really bad tone on a trumpet? How 'bout some really awful singing? (yeah, trombones rule!!) http://www.inlex.net/feck/mahler.mp3 I call it "Maynard goes to the symphony), but it's actually one of the Tastee Brothers, Scott Engelbright or Donny Dyess (gee, but I hope there is no relation there). Enjoy. This is a hoot. A laugh a day... Great medicine. Happy Holidays frum Texas, ya'll. Wayne Dyess -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:34:02 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Schilke 60 Modification (Thanks Danny Satterwhite) Well, as long as we're on an equipment bent we may as well talk about mouthpieces. I wanted to write in about a slight modification I had done to my Schilke 60s that was recommended here on this list by Danny Satterwhite and others (sorry, I don't remember everybody who suggested it). It was so helpful that I wanted to report on it to you folks out there who play Schilkes as a habit, and also to those who have tried them and said "you gotta be kidding" and put it back in the drawer. Here's the modification: you send your mouthpiece up to Schilke in Chicago (call Mark Hammond, the custom mouthpiece guy, at 708-343-8858) and for $20 and shipping he will first cut the end of the shank off so that it is the same length as a Bach bass shank (such as a 1G). Then he puts it on the lathe and turns the shank (the OUTER part only) into a Bach shank in terms of its taper and specs. Lastly, he cleans up the end of the inner backbore just very slightly so that the lip is not too thick after having cut off the end of the shank (he really does not do too much to the inner backbore, just a bit). So what you have is a Bach shank (the outer part) and a Schilke backbore (the inner part). I believe Schilke calls the Bach type shank a Type 2, so this is what you'll be asking for when you talk to them. After the modification the mouthpiece will sit in the leadpipe of any horn exactly as a Bach bass mouthpiece would, and also (very importantly) the end of the shank will be located at the same point relative to the venturi point as a Bach would (if you just ground down the outside of the shank it would end up too close to or past the venturi point and that spells disaster). Basically, in my opinion, the Schilkes just don't go in far enough relative to the venturi of the lead pipe in any horn unless it's an older horn that has been worn down in the leadpipe or modified. Also, because you have cut off the bottom of the shank a little bit, the mouthpiece gains some playing advantages, or at least I think so. Danny predicted these and he was right on the button. The low range is more comfy and open (though not overly so--it's still controllable), easier to control the pitch in cresc/decresc situations, the upper range seems to have better intonation, and the mid range is not adversely affected at all, and I was very happy to see that the response in soft playing was very much improved (no little lag-time bubble to deal with, just an immediate attack). The only thing I noticed when I first got it back and started to play on it was that the sound had a very slightly more airy sound, but it was very slight. I felt confident that as I made adjustments to the new mouthpiece I could get rid of that in a couple weeks, and this has proved to be the case. Any slight airiness that may have been there is gone now. So what I think you gain with this modification is that you still have the Schilke design, with the two-part backbore (the straight barrel and then the taper to the end) but it fits more perfectly in the leadpipe relative to the venturi which can really make a difference (we are still talking small degrees here) in the way your horn feels and sounds. Also, you will gain some improvement in not having to push the tuning slide in so much (but with some players this may be minimal or nonexistent because you have also opened up the backbore very slightly). I was so convinced that after having had this operation done to one of my third string mouthpieces, I sent every 60 and variations thereof up there and had it done. I am not sorry in the least, though maybe that was not the smartest thing to do, but it has worked out wonderfully. One of them is a 60-D, it's even bigger than the regular 60, and I wondered if it might be just too much of a good thing for such a big mouthpiece, but it improved that one too--it addressed exactly the small reservations I had about it as an everyday mouthpiece. I simply cannot figure out how to sound good on a mouthpiece with a Bach type backbore, the straight inner taper. Many years ago I ordered a Schilke 60 with a Bach shank and it actually had both a Bach outer shank and a Bach inner backbore, and that just did not work for me either. So I was intrigued to hear about this modification that kept intact the inner Schilke design. On the horn that I played for my first 14 years in the orchestra, it had a Minik Open lead pipe, I struggled back then to get the fit right with my favorite Schilke 60, and I sanded down the outer shank until I found the right spot. So I was aware of the "Schilke Problem" from years ago, but I believe this operation is much preferable as it gives more benefits than just fitting properly in the pipe/vernturi. So those of you who are the reverse of me, who can't figure out how to make a Schilke backbore sound decent, may want to try this if you are still interested. Those of you who are Schilke born and bred will for sure want to try this on an old backup mouthpiece to see if it will make you just a little bit of a more happy camper. Please email me with questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Sorry for the wordy post--I'm finding the older I get the harder it is to write succinctly--argh. Randy Campora Baltimore Symphony Orchestra Bass Trombonist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:42:18 -0600 From: Charles Levine Subject: Casa Loma Bone I was playing in a pickup band called the "NY All Stars" about 45 years = ago. Behind me sat a trombone player whose playing was obviously more = than the other "All Stars" I found out his name ... Rousse (sp?), = formerly lead trombone with the CasaLoma orchestra. He was the guy who = played the theme "Smoke Rings" into the mike and easily went up to the = double F (quite a feat in those days). He told me , that he was so short, he had to stand on a chair to reach = the mike. He also talked about the genius of Murray McEchearn (sp?). = who tripled on sax and violin!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:07:42 -0600 From: "Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared" Subject: Fw: Re: [TBN-L] Valve Rap <> I'll second that!! Hey DJ, do you still have any of that slide goo you were trying out? Thanks Eric Edwards bonearzt@mindspring.com -------Original Message------- From: Randy Campora Sent: 12/12/02 09:58 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Valve Rap I hereby nominate DJ as the Poet Laureate of Trombone-L. ~RC Thanks Eric Edwards bonearzt@mindspring.com "Just shut up and play!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:15:14 -0500 From: John Olsson Subject: Shires Bass Bell for sale Hi Listers! I have a Shires Bass bell for sale. Here are the specs: Yellow brass Heavyweight Unsoldered rim Conn style flair Aprox. 9 5/8" in diameter Gets a solid sound that projects extremely well, yet is very responsive for a heavy bell. $695.00 Includes shipping (not Insurance) ($850 new) John Olsson Instructor of Trombone, Euphonium & Tuba Kent State University-Stark Campus Malone College Mt. Union College West Liberty State College ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bass Trombone Canton Symphony Wheeling Symphony ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:37:08 -0500 From: "Hector Bourg Jr." Subject: Re: Casa Loma Bone Charles, Billy Rausch was his name. He lived his last years here in the Atlanta metro area. He died about 14 or 15 years ago. He played with several gtroups around here and even in his 70s could still hit that double F quite easily! **************************************************************************** *** Hector "Butch" Bourg Jr. - Graphic and Web Design - Atlanta, GA Trombonist - Sentimental Journey Orchestra - http://www.thesjo.com ** NOW CELEBRATING TWENTY-SIX SWINGIN' YEARS ** **************************************************************************** *** PLEASE UPDATE your e-dress for me to: sackbutt@attbi.com **************************************************************************** *** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Levine" To: Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:42 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Casa Loma Bone I was playing in a pickup band called the "NY All Stars" about 45 years ago. Behind me sat a trombone player whose playing was obviously more than the other "All Stars" I found out his name ... Rousse (sp?), formerly lead trombone with the CasaLoma orchestra. He was the guy who played the theme "Smoke Rings" into the mike and easily went up to the double F (quite a feat in those days). He told me , that he was so short, he had to stand on a chair to reach the mike. He also talked about the genius of Murray McEchearn (sp?). who tripled on sax and violin!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:44:38 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Valve Rap ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Campora" To: Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Valve Rap > I hereby nominate DJ as the Poet Laureate of Trombone-L. > > ~RC > I'll Second the Motion - There is no one in second place! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:47:51 -0600 From: Scott Moore Subject: Re: Schilke 60 Modification You guys who were playing in the 80's remember the modification Randy is talking about. We used to call it "turning down" a 60 to make it work right, bringing the notes into better focus. Doug Yeo's M'piece has this feature built-in, by the way, and seems to me like an adjusted 60 that looks pretty. David Herring is one of the only folks I know who still plays one of these. It's a great way to have a terrific mouthpiece without breaking the bank. Scott Moore On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 10:34 AM, Randy Campora wrote: > Well, as long as we're on an equipment bent we may as well talk about > mouthpieces. > > I wanted to write in about a slight modification I had done to my > Schilke > 60s that was recommended here on this list by Danny Satterwhite and > others > (sorry, I don't remember everybody who suggested it). It was so helpful > that I wanted to report on it to you folks out there who play Schilkes > as a > habit, and also to those who have tried them and said "you gotta be > kidding" and put it back in the drawer. > > Here's the modification: you send your mouthpiece up to Schilke in > Chicago > (call Mark Hammond, the custom mouthpiece guy, at 708-343-8858) and > for $20 > and shipping he will first cut the end of the shank off so that it is > the > same length as a Bach bass shank (such as a 1G). Then he puts it on the > lathe and turns the shank (the OUTER part only) into a Bach shank in > terms > of its taper and specs. Lastly, he cleans up the end of the inner > backbore > just very slightly so that the lip is not too thick after having cut > off > the end of the shank (he really does not do too much to the inner > backbore, > just a bit). So what you have is a Bach shank (the outer part) and a > Schilke backbore (the inner part). I believe Schilke calls the Bach > type > shank a Type 2, so this is what you'll be asking for when you talk to > them. D. Scott Moore, Bass Trombone Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College phone: 507-933-6260 email: down8ve@hickorytech.net http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:04:27 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Thanks Wayne Wayne Dyess posted the incredible website http://www.inlex.net/feck/mahler.mp3 I just have to say, "Thanks Wayne", for that inspired posting. I mean, I haven't laughed that much in ten years! A truly indescribable performance. I think we probably all know people who would try to do this kind of thing if they were physically able. Just great! You really got my day off to a good start, especially after kind of a rocky beginning. I needed that! Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:08:31 -0500 From: Denver Seifried Subject: Re: Schilke 60 Modifications Randy, Excellent and informative post concerning the Schilke 60 mouthpiece and its adaptation to the Bach mouthpiece receiver. Someone said that a lot of those Schilke shanks were really developed to fit into a Elkhart Conn styled large shank receiver, as used on the Conn Elkhart 88H, Conn 70H, Conn 72H and the Conn 60/62 &71/73 series trombones. I remember we used to refer to those shanks as "Remington" shanks and the Conn shank had a different taper and the mouthpiece overall length was longer, when compared to a large shank Bach mouthpiece. I remember Gary Greenhoe putting a post onto the trombone-list with the exact machinist's terms (taper numbers) for the tapers of these two mouthpieces. One more question for the trombone-list members: As I was digging through a box of old mouthpieces, I found an old Schilke 59 I had ordered back in the 1970's, to fit a Holton TR180 I played during that era; and it has stamped on the mouthpiece 59 KM Anyone know what the "KM" stands for? Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:54:30 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment From: "Phil Brink" > Hear, hear! Wear, wear? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:58:40 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Valve wrap From: "Tom Izzo" > Of Corse Wayne, you're in Texas. You don't use > windows, you use air conditioning! LOL :-) I thought they just wore big hats. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:20:22 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: Standards Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Avery, Ray (232) > I will be going to a job fair soon at the request of the > engineering director who wants me to look for new talent for his department. > What he doesn't realize is I will also be looking for his replacement, at > the request of his VP. Wow, makes me glad I'm a freelance musician, and NOT an HR director... Walter Barrett "What exactly is wrong with inmates running the asylum? It seems to me They're in the ideal position to know what's needed." -George Carlin Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:30:50 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [TBN-L] Valve Rap yeah i endorse superslime -i mean rhinegold - send you empty slido mix bottle to chester hill studios 331 hancock street chester illinois ---62233-1910 ----i got a fresh supplu of mute cones ---coneheads forboneheads !!!!!!! Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared wrote: > < > ~RC>> > > I'll second that!! > Hey DJ, do you still have any of that slide goo you were trying out? > > Thanks > Eric Edwards > bonearzt@mindspring.com > > -------Original Message------- > From: Randy Campora > Sent: 12/12/02 09:58 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Valve Rap > > I hereby nominate DJ as the Poet Laureate of Trombone-L. > > ~RC > > Thanks > Eric Edwards > bonearzt@mindspring.com > "Just shut up and play!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:25:48 -0600 From: Phil Brink Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment Hair, hair! [Something I am losing rapidly!] -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Drover [mailto:slide.rule@adios.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:55 AM To: Phil Brink; TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment From: "Phil Brink" > Hear, hear! Wear, wear? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:32:39 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Yeo's statement on equipment I really do have to barge in, here. Y’all heard what our illustrious president said, “Buy, buy, buy!” And we need to follow his lead, here. It’s for the economy. It’s for America. So what’s all this talk about going off to the practice room with that same old trombone? I’m sorry, but there’s just too much at stake, here. We’ve got to get into action, here. We’ve got to buy new trombones, whether we want one or not. It’s for America. DanP PS. References to “follow his lead” refer to military spending and are not a reference to the personal spending habits of G.W. Bush. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:32:12 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Fw: [TBN-L] Casa Loma Bone I played an industrial show in Atlanta about 20 years ago, just for a day or two, and Billy Rausch was in the band. He was probably 75 years old at the time and he sounded wonderful. My father used to tell me about listening to Billy playing "Smoke Rings", which was the Casa Loma theme song, every night on the radio, back in the 1930's. Trombone players from all over the country would listen to the beginning of that program every night. Every one was waiting for him to miss the "high F" at the end of "Smoke Rings". He never did. Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hector Bourg Jr." To: Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Casa Loma Bone > Charles, > > Billy Rausch was his name. He lived his last years here in the Atlanta metro > area. He died about 14 or 15 years ago. He played with several gtroups > around here and even in his 70s could still hit that double F quite easily! > > > **************************************************************************** > *** > Hector "Butch" Bourg Jr. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Levine" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:42 AM > Subject: [TBN-L] Casa Loma Bone > > > I was playing in a pickup band called the "NY All Stars" about 45 years ago. > Behind me sat a trombone player whose playing was obviously more than the > other "All Stars" I found out his name ... Rousse (sp?), > > formerly lead trombone with the CasaLoma orchestra. He was the guy who > played the theme "Smoke Rings" into the mike and easily went up to the > double F (quite a feat in those days). > He told me , that he was so short, he had to stand on a chair to reach the > mike. He also talked about the genius of Murray McEchearn (sp?). who > tripled on sax and violin!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:38:48 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Standards Days like this I wish I was a contract musician and not an HR director. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Walter Barrett [mailto:wbarrett@bestweb.net] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:20 PM To: Avery, Ray (232); TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Standards Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Avery, Ray (232) > I will be going to a job fair soon at the request of the > engineering director who wants me to look for new talent for his department. > What he doesn't realize is I will also be looking for his replacement, at > the request of his VP. Wow, makes me glad I'm a freelance musician, and NOT an HR director... Walter Barrett "What exactly is wrong with inmates running the asylum? It seems to me They're in the ideal position to know what's needed." -George Carlin Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:44:40 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment Gabriel, >Hear hear Doug! (or is it Here here - can someone please >tell me?) I suppose I could research it on the Internet, but so could you. But as a scientist, I must add that you’ve missed two of the permutations, “Here, hear!” and Here, Hear!”. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:55:20 -0600 From: Charles Levine Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment Their, their. or is it there, there? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Drover" To: Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment > From: "Phil Brink" > > > > Hear, hear! > > > Wear, wear? > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:12:49 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment Here, there, everywhere ... > > Their, their. or is it there, there? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Drover" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment > > > > From: "Phil Brink" > > > > > > > Hear, hear! > > > > > > Wear, wear? > > > > A. > > > > Adrian Drover > > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:15:09 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: King 607-F Frankenbone >King Bells tend to fit TIGHT. Best advice is to have a trombone peg (you >can >get one from ferrees) in a vice and swedge the bell onto that tightly. >Once >you break the bell flange free, heat the crap out of the ferrule, then >twist >against the bell. It should twist off after a few dozen back-and-forth >twists. Be carful to do it straight - you don't want to stretch the >ferule. J.c., Thanks for your response. I had the bell flair in a "mandrel", a baseball bat with the handle cut off. And I was holding the hitting end of the bat in the vise. But since the ferrule didn't just ease off, when the solder started to ooze, I was stuck with nothing to hold the ferrule or tuning slide tube with. I tried a channel-locks, knowing that I was going to mar the ferrule and I did leave a teency mark. But I didn't get the thing apart and didn't want to use any more force on the thing, since every tool I have for applying some sort of force, also mars brass. What do you use to hold tubes, like the tuning slide tube, that can stand the heat? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:15:38 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Need Parts! Greetings List: Having exhausted local sources (and Osmun Brass), I am now looking to you all. I have a Reynolds single trigger bass in need of a dual valve bass section (I love the horn but need the low C's and B's). I've installed a King 7B section on an identical horn, so I know it can be done easily. So my question - does anyone out there have a dual valve bass section (preferably dependent, though I won't be too picky) from a conversion or something that I can purchase, levers and all? You can e-mail me off-list. Thanks in advance for any help. Best, J.c. Sherman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:30:08 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Schilke 60 Modification (Thanks Danny Satterwhite) Randy, It sounds as if you’ve got a bit of experience with different backbore designs. I’d love to hear more about what those different backbore shapes do for the sound and range. So far, I’ve gone from off the shelf mouthpieces to drilled out mouthpieces, to reamed out mouthpieces, where the reamer removes the cylindrical section, left by drilling a mouthpiece. So far, all my reamers have been “designed” to create a conical backbore. It sounds as if you prefer a backbore that expands slowly, at first and more rapidly, later? DanP >So what I think you gain with this modification is that you still have the >Schilke design, with the two-part backbore (the straight barrel and then >the taper to the end) but it fits more perfectly in the leadpipe relative >to the venturi which can really make a difference (we are still talking >small degrees here) in the way your horn feels and sounds. Also, you will >gain some improvement in not having to push the tuning slide in so much >(but with some players this may be minimal or nonexistent because you have >also opened up the backbore very slightly). >I simply cannot figure out how to sound good on a mouthpiece with a Bach >type backbore, the straight inner taper. Many years ago I ordered a Schilke >60 with a Bach shank and it actually had both a Bach outer shank and a Bach >inner backbore, and that just did not work for me either. So I was >intrigued to hear about this modification that kept intact the inner >Schilke design. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:13:12 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: Old horns, mouthpieces and such Randy's questions about my old Bach and Schmidt bass trombones and the modifications he had made to his Schilke 60 (to give it more Bach like shank) raise a few interesting points. The older I've gotten the less I've become in the "why" of instrument manufacture. I recall when I began working with Yamaha to develop the YBL622 that I said to the designer, "I won't tell you how to make a bass trombone if you won't tell me how to play it." I find that a lot of players who really don't know the first thing about "how" something works come up with all sorts of ideas as to why they think something works. Really, all we can talk is about is how we "feel" about a horn. It feels good, I feel the sound is good, it feels good ergonomically. I've learned the hard way that when it's time to call in an expert to do something for me, I should do it. That's why my back porch is a trapezoid, not a rectangle. Should have called an expert instead of doing it myself. So I can't give much in the way of comments as to why I like the sound and feel of my old Bach and Schmidt. The Bach has a red brass bell, unusual for a Bach. Mr. Kleinhammer removed the main tuning slide brace and also did some modification to the leadpipe (he can't remember what it was and I don't want to take the leadpipe out to find out). My Schmidt has a leaky, small valve and a completely different bell flare. Randy asked, "Are there features of the old Schmidt that you think could be emulated on a more modern instrument such that it would have qualities of both? Probably. But I doubt it. That's because I don't think any manufacturer today can make an "old" horn. Because it wouldn't be old. Even if you took exact measurements of my Schmidt and with the most sophisticated CAD program made a horn that was in every way similar, it would still be different. Why? Because it wouldn't be old. My Schmidt was made around 1920. That was a long time ago. That horn has been owned by 3 different players in its history. Moisture has sat in it for decades. The valve has been oiled, or not oiled, the hand grip has been replated. It's got a few dents. The inside probably has red-rot and much pitting of the horn. All of these things contribute to what makes the horn what it is. You can't duplicate those things. Witness all of the efforts, beginning with Holton many years ago, continuing through Hirshbrunner and other makers to "duplicate" the old York CC tuba formerly played by Arnold Jacobs. Each company thought they were making an exact replica. Yet none of them sound like the original York (despite their claims and protestations). Witness New York's Avery Fisher Hall which is an acoustical disaster - but which was modeled in part after Boston's Symphony Hall, which is acknowledged as one of the great rooms for music in the world. My 1996 Christopher Monk Workshop church serpent is an "exact" replica of Christopher Monk's c. 1820 Baudouin serpent. I also own a 1820 Baudouin. Neither Monk's Baudouin or my modern replica are anything like my Baudouin. The new Monk was made with a lathe; the old instruments were carved by hand. Different trees. Different oils. Different leathers from different cows. Etcetera. You can't duplicate old stuff. You can imitate it and copy it. But you can't clone it even with 21st century technology. That's why putting Schmidt ideas into a modern instrument won't yield the same results. And that's why people keep looking for old horns. Just like in 80 years, someone will be looking for a 2002 vintage Yamaha. "Man, they don't make horns like that anymore" my great, great grand-daughter will say. No, they don't. And they didn't in 2002 or 1920. Like wine and cheese and your marriage, even a brass instrument changes over time. So, I've not gotten interested in the efforts of companies to try to duplicate something which came before. Yamaha, when they began making brass instruments, had old mandrels and tooling from Conn. They tried to copy Conn. They actually made instruments which were parodies of Conns. When they got serious about making their own design without copying anyone, they began making horns people were interested in. Improvements are good - trial and error, R&D, working hard to make something better - these are important things. Good things will stay, bad things will drop off (but not until after many people have lost their shirt on a bad idea, such as the ill-fated Bach "K valve" for instance). So, I'm not sure I can answer Randy's questions. He could answer them himself if he played my horns for a few years like I have. In the end, you'll need to find something you like and play it. As to the mouthpiece modification, I had a Schilke 60 modified to the Bach shank about 25 years ago. In some ways it is a big improvement over the stock Schilke 60, but both the Schilke 60 and Bach 1G seem to suffer from the same problem: both are cut from the same blank Schilke and Bach tenor trombone mouthpieces are made from. The result is very thin walls in the cup. When working with Yamaha to design my mouthpiece, I was shown xrays of many other mouthpieces and the back room boys decided that the thin cup walls (especially just below the bottom of the rim) was a factor in the instability those mouthpieces had. Having an external profile, through a lot of trial and error (see my FAQ on the mouthpiece and some photos of the Yamaha mouthpiece prototypes which eventually led to my mouthpiece at http://www.yeodoug.com/mouthpiece.html), which had a LITTLE more mass proved to improve things. I don't know why. I honestly don't car. I have many other things to keep in my 3 pound brain which are a result of my insatiable curiosity. So, I'll let the R&D guys figure out WHY my trombone equipment works. I'll just work to try to make it work. That is quite enough of a task for me. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:46:17 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: King 607-F Frankenbone It’s alive! It’s alive! And the Frankenbone = “Mmmmm goood!” Thank you all for your help. By the way, not only did tapping the old solder joint help free it up, but you can grasp hot tubing with a steel wool pad. Just don’t get the flame near it or it will burn. And the instrument, a King 607-F with a Buescher Windsor bell flair, sounds GREAT! It does soft very well. It does loud very well. And it’s got just a hint of raspiness, that you get with a smaller bell (7 ½”). So, for at least the next few months, until I go to another Trombone Day and come home with an entirely new concept of how I want to sound, I’ve got a trombone that I love the sound of. Thanks again, for all the help. DanP _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:01:03 -0500 From: Steve Beck Subject: Re: Casa Loma Bone From: "Charles Levine" He also talked about the genius of Murray McEchearn (sp?). who tripled on sax and violin!!! There is definitely too much sax and violins on the internet these days. Missed on Adrian. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:47:13 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Schilke 60 Modification Scott- Did the phrase "turning down a 60" also include the cutting off of some of the length as well? My old 60, as I said, I turned it down myself but did not cut off any length from the end. In my opinion, the cutting off of the end makes it much better, as just turning it down helps but not as much as the cutting of the length and the slight cleaning out of the last part of the taper. So did guys also cut off the tip of the shank in the process of the turning down? Thanks, ~Randy Campora At 11:47 AM 12/12/2002 -0600, Scott Moore wrote: >You guys who were playing in the 80's remember the modification Randy >is talking about. We used to call it "turning down" a 60 to make it >work right, bringing the notes into better focus. > >Doug Yeo's M'piece has this feature built-in, by the way, and seems to >me like an adjusted 60 that looks pretty. > >David Herring is one of the only folks I know who still plays one of >these. It's a great way to have a terrific mouthpiece without breaking >the bank. > >Scott Moore ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:14:03 -0600 From: "D. Scott Moore" Subject: Re: Schilke 60 Modification On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:47 PM, Randy Campora wrote: > Scott- > > Did the phrase "turning down a 60" also include the cutting off of > some of the length as well? > > My old 60, as I said, I turned it down myself but did not cut off any > length from the end. In my opinion, the cutting off of the end makes > it much better, as just turning it down helps but not as much as the > cutting of the length and the slight cleaning out of the last part of > the taper. > > So did guys also cut off the tip of the shank in the process of the > turning down? > > Thanks, > > ~Randy Campora Randy, Yep, 'twas part of the secret. Most folks did it themselves, so you can only imagine the varying degrees of success. Say, I found an old 60 with the end of the shank dented... a likely candidate for a trip to Chicago! Seriously, I would like to have the thing adjusted and Elliott threads put on the cup so I can use my favorite rim. I'd like to have a good 60 again. Yours, Scott Scott Moore Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, MN 56082 (507)933-6260 smoore@gustavus.edu http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:06:23 -0500 From: Angie Brunk Subject: FYI on copyright I have not read this report yet, so I have no comments, but I thought some might find it interesting. > >December 12, 2002 > >FREE EXPRESSION THINK TANK RELEASES GUIDE TO COPYRIGHT BATTLES > >Should teenagers be allowed to swap music over the Internet? Should >computer hackers be permitted to decrypt the entertainment >industry’s electronic locks on e-books, songs, or movies? Where >should we draw the line between rewarding creativity through the >copyright system and society’s competing interest in the free flow >of ideas? > >In light of these and other concerns which have become the subject >of heated debate in Congress, academia, and the arts and >entertainment industries, the Free Expression Policy Project >announces its release of "The Progress of Science and Useful Arts": >Why Copyright Today Threatens Intellectual Freedom. This 71-page >policy report -- available now online at >www.fepproject.org/policyreports/copyright.html demystifies such >complex laws as the 1998 Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act and >Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and deconstructs the underlying >conflicts over "fair use," parody, copying, and the public domain. > >The report contains eight recommendations for a better-balanced >public policy on copyright and free expression. What with the U.S. >government prosecuting a Russian company for creating a device to >decrypt electronic books, and entertainment companies trying to shut >down file-sharing programs like Grokster and KaZaA, this timely >report will be an invaluable guide to the copyright battles that lie >ahead. > >Founded in 2000, the Free Expression Policy Project is a think tank >on artistic and intellectual freedom that seeks free-speech friendly >solutions to the concerns that drive censorship campaigns. For more >information about copyright and other free expression issues, visit >www.fepproject.org. > >Contact Information: Marjorie Heins, Director, Free Expression >Policy Project, 212.807.6222 x 12 > >Stephanie Elizondo Griest, Communications Director, Free Expression >Policy Project, 212.807.6222 x 17 > >Marjorie Heins, Director >Free Expression Policy Project >275 Seventh Ave., 9th floor >New York, NY 10001 >212-807-6222 x 12 >www.fepproject.org -- Angie Brunk-angie@cybersolvers.com Graduate Student Indiana University School of Journalism MLS Indiana University "Eat your dessert first, you may choke to death on your dinner!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:59:20 -0600 From: Pat & Jo McFarland Subject: Re: useless gadget, hour meter /duty cycle meter Forgive me. I'm catching up on old e-mails. You could use a light-weight plastic fiber optic bundle mounted to the outside of the mouthpiece just below the level of the rim (duct tape it in place if you like). The fiber optic bundle connects to a little photoelectric sensor (Banner, Omron, Allen-Bradley, Radio Shaft, or whatever...) - used in proximity mode - located on the bell. The output of the photoelectric sensor controls the input to a little watch-battery-powered solid-state timer (Red Lion, Omron, Durant, Radio Shaft...). Wala... no custom-made parts... everything off the shelf. I may try it! Pat (The Control Systems Geek) McFarland ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 6:33 AM Subject: [TBN-L] useless gadget, hour meter /duty cycle meter > This is not a useless gadget at all. > > Many of us have thought about it, some of us discussed building it, at least > one of us (ah, that would be me) actually gone to Radio Shack and browsed > through the parts rack, but as far as I know nobody has built one yet. > > Which one of you built the LED lights? Craig maybe? > > Anyway, you don't want a mercury switch. You need a VOX, a voice operated > switch like from an old cassette recorder, and you need a timer. The timer > is a little harder to figure an easy off the shelf solution for. There are > hour meters available that come in 24 VAC and 120 VAC versions, but that's a > pretty gross measurement as well. An easy fix would be to use the VOX, > clipped to the bell, and run a line to a PC; seems like a simple Basic > peek and poke would give you the answer, but it wouldn't be portable. You > could use the switch closure from the box to run power to a relay that would > run an electric clock, but it has to be the old analog dial kind, the new > digital ones keep time or start again from zero. The problem I see is > getting a start-stop signal in to the timer, and most of the stopwatches and > kitchen timers aren't built to let you do that easily. I hadn't thought of > a chess clock, but again the problem is having the start and stop signals > symmetrical. Anybody who knows what they are doing should be able to solve > this one, unfortunately I'm just a hacker at this. If you don't mind > spending the money, you can get a datalogger called Hobo from Onset. We use > the temperature/humidity ones at work. They are about an inch and a half > square, quarter inch thick, self powered, and measure continuously until you > download into a computer. They run $60 to $80 each. They make a similar > one that will monitor vibration and some people use them to infer duty cycle > on equipment. I have no experience with that type though. > > I do have a large digit Radio Shack kitchen timer and I start and stop it > whenever I practice. I know how much practice time I really put in, because > I stop it if the phone rings or the kids need something. But I don't know > what percentage of that time is actually making noise with the horn, and > that seems like a useful thing to know. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:45:30 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Schilke 60 Modification Thanks for the clarification--guess I missed all those secrets back then! Just think, with Trombone-L now there are no secrets for long... BTW, what is Dave Herring doing during his sabbatical, just teaching at U Minnesota? Is he taking the entire season off? Thanks again, ~Randy At 05:14 PM 12/12/2002 -0600, D. Scott Moore wrote: >>Did the phrase "turning down a 60" also include the cutting off of some >>of the length as well? >> >>My old 60, as I said, I turned it down myself but did not cut off any >>length from the end. In my opinion, the cutting off of the end makes it >>much better, as just turning it down helps but not as much as the cutting >>of the length and the slight cleaning out of the last part of the taper. >> >>So did guys also cut off the tip of the shank in the process of the >>turning down? >> >>Thanks, >> >>~Randy Campora > >Randy, > >Yep, 'twas part of the secret. Most folks did it themselves, so you can >only imagine the varying degrees of success. Say, I found an old 60 with >the end of the shank dented... a likely candidate for a trip to >Chicago! Seriously, I would like to have the thing adjusted and Elliott >threads put on the cup so I can use my favorite rim. I'd like to have a >good 60 again. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:58:46 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Old horns, mouthpieces and such Thanks, Doug, for all that good info. I remember you telling me about that process, in that you would tell them what result you wanted and they would figure out how to produce it. RE the older horns, I guess I was just curious if you could shed light on the elements of them that are really great. Question about the Schilke modification: when you had yours modified 25 years ago was it the outer shank only, or was the inner backbore modified at all? Reason I ask is, as I posted earlier, years ago when I special ordered one with a Bach shank it had a Bach inner backbore as well, and I didn't like it so I did not follow up on that idea. RE the thinness of the mouthpiece just under the rim, yes, it seems to be a very real thing. The mouthpiece I am playing most of the time now happens to be a screw rim, and a couple years ago I had Schilke make me a heavy rim--it just keeps it's weight all the way down instead of being sculpted at all. It improved the mouthpiece--seemed to steady it without taking anything away from the response or make the sound too dull. But because the wall of the cup was not changed it still is as thin as ever at that point. So I think you are very much right about that spot on the mouthpiece. I really like the weight of your Yamaha model, a very nice medium weight and has a good solid feel but not dull sounding or too heavy to respond. The only other company that uses a special bass trombone blank is Monette, though I am not sure of some of the smaller custom makers such as Greg Black and others. Thanks again, Doug, for the info. ~Randy At 03:13 PM 12/12/2002 -0500, Douglas Yeo wrote: >As to the mouthpiece modification, I had a Schilke 60 modified to the Bach >shank about 25 years ago. In some ways it is a big improvement over the >stock Schilke 60, but both the Schilke 60 and Bach 1G seem to suffer from >the same problem: both are cut from the same blank Schilke and Bach tenor >trombone mouthpieces are made from. The result is very thin walls in the >cup. When working with Yamaha to design my mouthpiece, I was shown xrays >of many other mouthpieces and the back room boys decided that the thin cup >walls (especially just below the bottom of the rim) was a factor in the >instability those mouthpieces had. Having an external profile, through a >lot of trial and error (see my FAQ on the mouthpiece and some photos of >the Yamaha mouthpiece prototypes which eventually led to my mouthpiece at >http://www.yeodoug.com/mouthpiece.html), which had a LITTLE more mass >proved to improve things. I don't know why. I honestly don't car. I have >many other things to keep in my 3 pound brain which are a result of my >insatiable curiosity. So, I'll let the R&D guys figure out WHY my >trombone equipment works. I'll just work to try to make it work. That is >quite enough of a task for me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:32:28 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: endorsements, was Re: Yeo's statement on equipment --- Phil Brink wrote: > Hair, hair! [Something I am losing rapidly!] > At least you still have "some", Phil! Tom (who lost most of his 35 years ago) ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:15:52 -0600 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: King 607-F Frankenbone DanP, If you are using heat to a point where the ferrule is fried, it will not come off....it's bonded baby. Remove lacquer around the area, gently flame (low heat) until you see the bubbling and it will come apart. Flux sometimes helps at the joint as it cleans the old solder... but it sounds like you are past that point. Also, I might warn you about using wooden mandrels in the bell. If you wedge it in good, and ANY moisture soaks into the wood....say goodbye to the whole project! good luck, Gary -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:15 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] King 607-F Frankenbone >King Bells tend to fit TIGHT. Best advice is to have a trombone peg (you >can >get one from ferrees) in a vice and swedge the bell onto that tightly. >Once >you break the bell flange free, heat the crap out of the ferrule, then >twist >against the bell. It should twist off after a few dozen back-and-forth >twists. Be carful to do it straight - you don't want to stretch the >ferule. J.c., Thanks for your response. I had the bell flair in a "mandrel", a baseball bat with the handle cut off. And I was holding the hitting end of the bat in the vise. But since the ferrule didn't just ease off, when the solder started to ooze, I was stuck with nothing to hold the ferrule or tuning slide tube with. I tried a channel-locks, knowing that I was going to mar the ferrule and I did leave a teency mark. But I didn't get the thing apart and didn't want to use any more force on the thing, since every tool I have for applying some sort of force, also mars brass. What do you use to hold tubes, like the tuning slide tube, that can stand the heat? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:05:47 -0600 From: Charles Levine Subject: Re: Casa Loma Bone Now THAT'S good!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Beck" To: Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Casa Loma Bone > From: "Charles Levine" He also talked about the genius of Murray McEchearn > (sp?). who tripled on sax and violin!!! > > There is definitely too much sax and violins on the internet these days. > > Missed on Adrian. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:34:00 -0600 From: "Monte B. Price" Subject: Re: My New 1936 Olds Doesn't Have a Slide Lock ... AHA!!! DJ's suggestion explained an artifact I found in the case - it was a small cork with a screen-door latch eye screwed into the top. Attached to the top was a broken rubberband - this was the slidelock! I replaced the rubberband with an elastic hair thingy that belonged to daughter number 2 --- worked like a champ. So I feel like I am now equipped as authentic as I can be. By the way, the Olds has the fluted inner slides - I really feel like I got a treasure. For those that might wonder what my prosthesis looks like, the link below shows a tastefully decorated socket and hook (not mine). When I hold a trombone, I wrap a washcloth around the flange brace (where the two-handed would place their left hands) and then open the hook and grip the flange brace. Mine can rotate and then lock in place. I have developed enough shoulder strength that I can play a 40 minute set without getting tired. http://www.hsc.mb.ca/re/P&OGallery/2.htm Thanks to everyone on the list - I always look forward to the discussions among the group. If you plan to be in the Austin, TX area, let me know in advance. I'll gather some brethren and we'll have an impromptu fest. Monte At 08:18 AM 12/12/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Monty > >It would help to know how your prosthesis attaches to the trombone. i.e. do >you have the ability to grip with it or is it a simply one-piece hook. > >I assume you cannot grip with it or I suppose you would be able to do much >the same as us two-handed guys. So I would suggest if you cannot grip to >practice hooking over the slide brace and cradling the horn inside your arm >to use the waterkey. This might be a bit of a contortion though. > >Although in a sense it would spoil the original horn to fit a slide lock >there may be a repairman who knows of a way, and there may be a style of >lock contemporary to the horn anyway. That's another idea. > >Hope that helps, and go with that dixie sound, bet the horn sounds lovely. > >Keith in Bb/F/D >www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Monte B. Price" >To: >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:31 AM >Subject: [TBN-L] My New 1936 Olds Doesn't Have a Slide Lock ... > > > > I just took delivery of what I think is a 1936-37 Olds Self-Balancing > > Trombone in really good shape. It uses a friction connection to attach > > slide to bell, and it has no slide lock. The slide is smooth and free and > > the bell section has no significant dings, so in other words, it's a real > > treasure. And it came with a practically new Bach 7C mouthpiece. > > > > What's the problem, you may ask? I have a hook (prosthesis) instead of a > > left hand. My other horns have slide locks, and I have trained myself to > > always lock the slide before removing my hand from the slide hand bar, for > > instance when I am opening the water key. So, I need to do one of three > > things: > > > > 1. Figure out an impromptu slide locking device > > 2. Retrain myself (I guess this assumes I was trained in the first place >:) > > 3. Hang this neat horn on a wall > > > > I really hate to consider option 3, since I am trying to attain a >20's/30's > > Dixieland sound for a group I play with. Any ideas? > > > > Monte > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:38:38 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Maestro Trombone Now, that was funny!! -----Original Message----- Wanna talk the "classics"? Wanna hear a really bad tone on a trumpet? How 'bout some really awful singing? (yeah, trombones rule!!) http://www.inlex.net/feck/mahler.mp3 I call it "Maynard goes to the symphony), but it's actually one of the Tastee Brothers, Scott Engelbright or Donny Dyess (gee, but I hope there is no relation there). Enjoy. This is a hoot. A laugh a day... Great medicine. Happy Holidays frum Texas, ya'll. Wayne Dyess -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:51:54 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: Maestro Trombone And for those that don't know, you can check out those fabulous furry Tastee Brothers at www.tasteebros.com ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. On 12/12/02 9:38 PM, "Richard Z. Johnson" wrote: > Now, that was funny!! > > -----Original Message----- > Wanna talk the "classics"? Wanna hear a really bad tone on a > trumpet? How 'bout some really awful singing? > (yeah, trombones rule!!) > > http://www.inlex.net/feck/mahler.mp3 > > I call it "Maynard goes to the symphony), but it's actually one of > the Tastee Brothers, Scott Engelbright or Donny Dyess (gee, but I > hope there is no relation there). > > Enjoy. This is a hoot. A laugh a day... > Great medicine. > > Happy Holidays frum Texas, ya'll. > Wayne Dyess > > > > -- > ========================= > Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music > Lamar University Music Department > P. O. Box 10044 > Beaumont, Texas 77710 > 409-880-8146 > FAX: 409-880-8143 > dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu > http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 11 Dec 2002 to 12 Dec 2002 (#2002-152) *****************************************************************