TROMBONE-L Digest 2322 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Bending pitches by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 2) RE: Bending pitches by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 3) Re: King Bass Bone Gone? by Craig Parmerlee 4) RE: Bending pitches by Gabriel Langfur 5) RE: King Bass Bone Gone? by "Jon Moeller" 6) Re: King Bass Bone Gone? by Earl Needham 7) RE: King Bass Bone Gone? by "Jeff Albert" 8) Possible Greg Black mouthpiece trade by Roger Hecht 9) Morceau Symphonique trill question by Bruce Faske 10) Michael Rath/Schmelzer by "Fred Hudson" 11) RE: Bending pitches by "Steve Cordingley" 12) RE: Michael Rath/Schmelzer by "Jeff Albert" 13) Re: Morceau Symphonique trill question by Walter Barrett 14) Re: Michael Rath/Schmelzer by Matmutt@aol.com 15) Re: Michael Rath/Schmelzer by "Fred Hudson" 16) Re: Morceau Symphonique trill question by "Peter W. Schroth" 17) Re: Morceau Symphonique trill question by "Peter W. Schroth" 18) free Edwards leadpipe by "posaune rex" 19) Doug Wright to visit Indiana University by "Jon Whitaker" 20) RE: Bending pitches by "Daniel Pliskin" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:47:00 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: jgreen@twics.com, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bending pitches Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F8C2@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1C610.D91716F0" We have had this argument before and I have not prevailed. Neither have I changed my mind. I believe if you write the governing equations you will find the response is asymmetric about the center of resonance. What I mean is, for any given tube length we can find a fundamental lower frequency it resonates at. For example, maybe eight feet is C = 261. But really that just means maximum response for a given input is at 261. It still responds fairly well at 260 and 262, a little worse at 259 and 263, and so on until you get far enough away that you're just driving a tube with muscle.Ê When I have looked at curves for other cases of vibration, they have tended to drop off gradually below resonant frequencies until you reach a fairly flat line where response stays constant pretty close to input levels no matter how low you go (until you run into the next lower resonance of course). However above resonance response drops off more sharply and continues to do so even below input levels (where Ao/Ai would be 1). This means that in the case of rotating shafts, for example, you often prefer to operate well above resonant frequencies as long as you can survive the shaking as you pass through them. These curves are commonly called Bode diagrams. (they started checking this when submarines started not coming back up, supposedly, and you can find plots in older engineering texts of submarine propeller shafts)Ê Now, if the math predicts it normally real life will follow, and as you've observed it does so in this case. However having a physical explanation for what goes on in the micro level is harder. I think the swing set analogy may help. Put a child on a swing set, and they'll enjoy it. Ooops, quote from a musical, sorry. Push her very slowly with an amplitude of one inch and a frequency of one push per minute, you will notice she moves back and forth one inch per minute. (depending on the length of the swing, of course). Speed up your one inch pushes, and at resonance she'll be flying six feet above datum. But continue to speed them up, and you'll reach a point where she essentially stays static at the push point and jiggles. This mirrors playing above and below resonance - you just don't get much response above, until run into the area where you are getting close to the next partial. You are pushing and pulling the air molecules in a region where inertia and viscous friction dominate, I think.Ê -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Green [mailto:jgreen@twics.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 5:46 PM To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Bending pitches I've experienced it countless times, but have never understood it: Why is bending pitches down so much easier than bending them up? Why? (I suppose it has something to do with the difference between buzzing a note with the mouthpiece only and playing that note with the tubing at the "correct" length.) JG +++++++++++++++++++++ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:48:45 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Bending pitches Message-ID: <587F49FABBEDD411A68F00A0C9EA313B5FD139@dasmthkhn561.amedd.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1C621.DADD6F50" It's been a while (this is my excuse for having a little fun :-).), but I think what Richard just described is similar to quantum mechanics descriptions of why electrons stay in a particular shell, then seem to "jump" to a higher, or lower energy shell. They don't migrate, they don't meander, they transition in a moment. This crazy idea of quantum energy was not felt to be useful even by its creator, but it has panned out that describing changes in energy state in nature fits this model well.Ê In my feeble mind, bending a pitch downward is going to be easier just because you are going from a high state to a lower state. However, bending a pitch upward, will take more energy, more tension in the lips and the system will want to leap to the higherÊenergy state, or partial. Maybe it is an issue of control as much asÊenergy, so maybe it takes less technique to go lower on the energy scaleÊthan to go higher. Remember, your system (trombone) will want to stay put, then leap to the next higher energy state or partial.ÊI have heard stories of great players being able to immitate a slur by lipping up a note as they "extend the slide"!!, but since I have neverÊseen this, it must be legend.Ê Rick Marple San Antonio TX -----Original Message----- From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL [mailto:richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:47 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Bending pitches We have had this argument before and I have not prevailed. Neither have I changed my mind. I believe if you write the governing equations you will find the response is asymmetric about the center of resonance. What I mean is, for any given tube length we can find a fundamental lower frequency it resonates at. For example, maybe eight feet is C = 261. But really that just means maximum response for a given input is at 261. It still responds fairly well at 260 and 262, a little worse at 259 and 263, and so on until you get far enough away that you're just driving a tube with muscle. When I have looked at curves for other cases of vibration, they have tended to drop off gradually below resonant frequencies until you reach a fairly flat line where response stays constant pretty close to input levels no matter how low you go (until you run into the next lower resonance of course). However above resonance response drops off more sharply and continues to do so even below input levels (where Ao/Ai would be 1). This means that in the case of rotating shafts, for example, you often prefer to operate well above resonant frequencies as long as you can survive the shaking as you pass through them. These curves are commonly called Bode diagrams. (they started checking this when submarines started not coming back up, supposedly, and you can find plots in older engineering texts of submarine propeller shafts) Now, if the math predicts it normally real life will follow, and as you've observed it does so in this case. However having a physical explanation for what goes on in the micro level is harder. I think the swing set analogy may help. Put a child on a swing set, and they'll enjoy it. Ooops, quote from a musical, sorry. Push her very slowly with an amplitude of one inch and a frequency of one push per minute, you will notice she moves back and forth one inch per minute. (depending on the length of the swing, of course). Speed up your one inch pushes, and at resonance she'll be flying six feet above datum. But continue to speed them up, and you'll reach a point where she essentially stays static at the push point and jiggles. This mirrors playing above and below resonance - you just don't get much response above, until run into the area where you are getting close to the next partial. You are pushing and pulling the air molecules in a region where inertia and viscous friction dominate, I think. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Green [mailto:jgreen@twics.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 5:46 PM To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Bending pitches I've experienced it countless times, but have never understood it: Why is bending pitches down so much easier than bending them up? Why? (I suppose it has something to do with the difference between buzzing a note with the mouthpiece only and playing that note with the tubing at the "correct" length.) JG +++++++++++++++++++++ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 21:20:01 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: King Bass Bone Gone? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307211226.00b98780@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:02 PM 3/7/2002 +0000, Keith Marr wrote: My guess is that now UMI own all these brands that they are "rationalising" their range. So the King bass trombone quietly disappeared sometime in the last 2-3 years. By the same token I reckon the 4B will be next, leaving King as a range of jazz horns. IMHO the 7B was, laterally, a Benge with a curve bell brace. If you see pictures of the two you see what I mean. But one also is left to wonder if the Benge bass (or the Benge trombones in general) has a future. I'd say the rationalized Steinway line goes something like this: - Bach 42 and 50, pro horns for symphony - King 2-3B pro jazz horns (no Kings bigger than 3B) - Bach 16 as jazz alternative - Conn: sort of a boutique line, pro horns mainly for symphony but with more "personality" than Bach, sort of the Mac vs PC positioning I don't see a non-redundant role for the Benge nameplate unless they want to position them as step-up / "affordable pro" horns. Just guessing. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 18:22:47 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Bending pitches Message-ID: <20020308022247.50037.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" > I have heard stories of great players being > able to immitate a > slur by lipping up a note as they "extend the slide"!!, > but since I have > never seen this, it must be legend. I have practiced exactly that, at the suggestion of Dudley Bright during the semester I studied with him: slow whole-step slurs from one partial to the next higher, trying to lip a smear in that direction...fighting the tendency of the pitch to go lower as the slide goes out. When you speed the slur back up to a quick slide motion, it is much smoother. Norman Bolter does a similar thing with ordinary lip slurs, and when Tim Morrison was still playing trumpet with the Boston Symphony, I heard similar things come out of his bell, leading to an extremely smooth legato style. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:28:05 -0600 From: "Jon Moeller" To: "'Trombone List'" Subject: RE: King Bass Bone Gone? Message-ID: <000001c1c659$a4a2db90$3101a8c0@Jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Benge horns are pretty much kings anyway (same overall design anyway), I think they will market them as affordable "Intermediate" horns for students and such -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 8:20 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: King Bass Bone Gone? At 04:02 PM 3/7/2002 +0000, Keith Marr wrote: >My guess is that now UMI own all these brands that they are "rationalising" >their range. So the King bass trombone quietly disappeared sometime in the >last 2-3 years. By the same token I reckon the 4B will be next, leaving King >as a range of jazz horns. IMHO the 7B was, laterally, a Benge with a curve >bell brace. If you see pictures of the two you see what I mean. But one also is left to wonder if the Benge bass (or the Benge trombones in general) has a future. I'd say the rationalized Steinway line goes something like this: - Bach 42 and 50, pro horns for symphony - King 2-3B pro jazz horns (no Kings bigger than 3B) - Bach 16 as jazz alternative - Conn: sort of a boutique line, pro horns mainly for symphony but with more "personality" than Bach, sort of the Mac vs PC positioning I don't see a non-redundant role for the Benge nameplate unless they want to position them as step-up / "affordable pro" horns. Just guessing. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:00:17 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: King Bass Bone Gone? Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020307220011.01907e80@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:02 PM 3/7/2002 +0000, Keith Marr wrote: My guess is that now UMI own all these brands that they are "rationalising" their range. So the King bass trombone quietly disappeared sometime in the last 2-3 years. By the same token I reckon the 4B will be next, leaving King as a range of jazz horns. IMHO the 7B was, laterally, a Benge with a curve bell brace. If you see pictures of the two you see what I mean. My experience with the Duo Gravis is with a horn about 25 years old. But gee, it sure is a nice Bass Trombone for a big band. Plenty of "punch" when you need it, never lost in the "blend", etc... Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1*:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1 -EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630> Did you get a letter from Nigeria offering a "deal"? See http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/ and http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/Business/nigerian.htm ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:12:16 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: King Bass Bone Gone? Message-ID: <006601c1c65f$d0b8f6a0$b8209d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My experience with the Duo Gravis is with a horn about 25 years old. But gee, it sure is a nice Bass Trombone for a big band. Plenty of "punch" when you need it, never lost in the "blend", etc... Earl ================================================================= When I heard Earl McIntyre with the Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, he was playing a King bass bone, and it was absolutely, hands down, pick another superlative, the most MUSICAL commercial bass trombone sound I have ever heard. Of course, I am sure a lot of that has to do with Earl. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 00:16:48 -0500 From: Roger Hecht To: Subject: Possible Greg Black mouthpiece trade Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020308001457.00a604d0@pop.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7279996==_.ALT" I have a Greg Black 4G, standard weight large shank. I'm thinking of trading if for one of the Greg Black 5's, probably the 5G. If you're interested, please reply off list. Roger Hecht ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 23:27:59 -0600 From: Bruce Faske To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Morceau Symphonique trill question Message-ID: <008c01c1c662$029d6a50$2503fea9@Slaveone> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ezu7KC8m5IRGT+tOsGRFBA)" Dear list, I am soloing with a local band on their spring tour next month, and the director has asked me to perform the Guilmant Morceau Symphonique. After 'revisiting' this solo the past few days for memorization purposes, I was hit with a question that I never answered. THE TRILL. This has been a subject of debate with every other trombone player I know. Some omit the trill and play the D as a long note, while others lip trill the whole step to E, even though the music is in E flat, others finger D and valve trill with the F attachment. I have heard of one more option.... My last college teacher told me that Christian Lindberg uses the "sympathetic tone" method. (I think that's whatÊhe called it) You start the note in fourth on the D, slowly start the trill, moving the slide from 4th to 3rd and back to establish the sound ofÊthe half step,Êand thenÊstopping in 4th for the majorityÊof the trill duration. Supposedly, the earÊhears the half step, even though the player is clearly playing a whole step trill. I hear a definate whole step trill. I want an even trill that doesn't sound 'humored',Êand withoutÊdimished sound quality. I have a fast enough Thayer to make the half step trill work well, but I would like to get some feedback from other players as to what they have done for this note. Sorry for my blabbering. I'll shut up now. :) Any comments? Bruce ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 02:43:08 -0600 From: "Fred Hudson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Michael Rath/Schmelzer Message-ID: <001301c1c67d$47d900a0$f285fea9@s0024172501> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C1C64A.FB470660" An inquiry to the List Has anyone ever played/have an opinion of a Michael Rath or Schmelzer trombone. If so how do they compare to a King or Bach or US handmades? Fred Hudson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:47:32 -0000 From: "Steve Cordingley" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Bending pitches Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1C686.44F97140" -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Sent: 07 March 2002 19:47 To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Bending pitches This mirrors playing above and below resonance - you just don't get much response above, until run into the area where you are getting close to the next partial. You are pushing and pulling the air molecules in a region where inertia and viscous friction dominate, I think.Ê Intriguining idea - from both Richard with the swing and Richard with the quantum mechanics though I see that Richard was in part teasing us with a Quantum Theory Of Trombone - wouldnÕt want you to think we donÕt have a sense of irony over here :-D) Anyoldhow, I regularly do morning yawns (lipping down by three or four tones and then trying to make a smooth transition to the next harmonic) as an exercise in its own right and when I saw the mail from Joseph I tried it and realised I get more or less exactly what the two Richards suggest I should. I remember the feeling when I first tried lipping down. At the start, it seemed that no matter how far I opened my jaw, the note stayed resolutely where it began. It changed in colour and quality but did not move until it dropped to the harmonic below. Now they bend quite naturally. And then they bend back up. However, this is all low on the instrument, bending from low Bflat down to F and then down to pedal Bflat and on down and then back up again. Starting higher seems to be the where the quantum leap jumps in and that fits too with RichardÕs swing theory. And I hear GabeÕs observation but I think IÕve only personally witnessed trumpet / flugelhorn players doing it regularly. That seems odd because the harmonic is so much higher. And that makes me think that the issue for a trombone player is that it is considerably easier to control at lower points in the instrumentÕs range in the same way that itÕs easy to step in and grab a resonating elastic in the right place and then slide your hand backwards and forwards when itÕs long and making nice slow curves. I canÕt be sure, but IÕm thinking the trumpet players IÕve witnessed tend to do it lower in their register too. And that suggests that they are accustomed to working at higher resonances and therefore, to them, lower seems easier even though itÕs higher to me Ð notwithstanding that IÕm a 45-year-old child and they are gods, of course! My three penethÉ (at todayÕs exchange rate, I think that would be 4.41 cents worth) Steve in England ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:14:31 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Michael Rath/Schmelzer Message-ID: <000801c1c6a3$2f7e74b0$6f229d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I played a Schmelzer at an IAJE Conference about 6 years ago. It was just a conference showroom playing so you couldn't tell a whole lot about it. The one I played was a .500 bore, and seemed to be based on the Williams design, but it was much lighter. At least it was much lighter than the Callichio/Williams I played at the same conference. It was very responsive, and easy to play, but I prefer a heavier horn. I think they wanted $2k for it, but I didn't feel like it was $1500 better than the late 60's 2B that I had (that only cost me $500). It was a nice horn though. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Fred Hudson Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:43 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Michael Rath/Schmelzer An inquiry to the List Ê Has anyone ever played/have an opinion of a Michael Rath or Schmelzer trombone. If so how do they compare to a King or BachÊ or US handmades? Ê Fred Hudson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:00:26 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Morceau Symphonique trill question Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 3/8/02 12:27 AM, Bruce Faske expounded thusly... > Dear list, > > I am soloing with a local band on their spring tour next month, and the > director has asked me to perform the Guilmant Morceau Symphonique. After > 'revisiting' this solo the past few days for memorization purposes, I was hit > with a question that I never answered. THE TRILL. This has been a subject of > debate with every other trombone player I know. Some omit the trill and play > the D as a long note, while others lip trill the whole step to E, even though > the music is in E flat, others finger D and valve trill with the F attachment. > I have heard of one more option.... > > My last college teacher told me that Christian Lindberg uses the "sympathetic > tone" method. (I think that's what he called it) You start the note in fourth > on the D, slowly start the trill, moving the slide from 4th to 3rd and back to > establish the sound of the half step, and then stopping in 4th for the > majority of the trill duration. Supposedly, the ear hears the half step, even > though the player is clearly playing a whole step trill. I hear a definate > whole step trill. I want an even trill that doesn't sound 'humored', and > without dimished sound quality. I have a fast enough Thayer to make the half > step trill work well, but I would like to get some feedback from other players > as to what they have done for this note. > > Sorry for my blabbering. I'll shut up now. :) Any comments? > > Bruce I start the trill by playing an Eb, sorta like doing a grace note, then moving the slide to 4th, where I finish up with a lip trill on D to (almost) F. Since it's a Bb7 chord, the minor 3rd trill from D to F fits the harmony. I guess it's like what Lindberg does, except I don't move the slide after the first Eb. I have tried doing it in 1st with the valve, but I don't like it as much as the lip trill. I've also done it on euph, where you can do a proper, correct trill, but the woodwind players are never impressed by that trill, only by the lip trill on trombone! -- Walter Barrett How do you get a drummer to play an accelerando? Ask him to play in 4/4 at a steady 120 bpm. I asked my drummer to spell "Mississippi"... He said, "the river or the state?" How do you know if a drummer's platform is level? The drool comes out of both sides of his mouth. Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:01:46 EST From: Matmutt@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Michael Rath/Schmelzer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c.2445b3a3.29ba1e4a_boundary" In a message dated 3/8/2002 3:43:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, fmhudson@arkansas.net writes: Has anyone ever played/have an opinion of a Michael Rath or Schmelzer trombone. If so how do they compare to a King or Bach or US handmades? Hi Fred; FWIW, I've tried both several times. The Schmelzer was a small bore at Dillon's and was in the "final five" when I was in the market for a small bore some years ago. Not my final choice. I've played several different Rath .547 horn w/ F att. and would have bought any one of them if I'd been in the market for that type horn. The only horn I've liked as well was a Shires custom horn that he ( Steve) had with him at a brass conference in New York City two years ago. I know Sam Burtis took it home on approval and might have kept it. Keep in mind when choosing horns that each horn has it's unique personality. Individual examples of the same model may vary greatly in response. Buy A horn, not a brand or model, and try it out in the context in which you plan to use it. A few toots in a music store doesn't really tell you much. Thus endeth the sermon. Regards, Larry Priori ( the passionate amateur) Ê Ê ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:09:56 -0600 From: "Fred Hudson" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Michael Rath/Schmelzer Message-ID: <000b01c1c6aa$ef976160$261298d8@s0024172501> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jeff, Actually I only paid $150 for my 2B brand new. But that was in 1950! The horn still sings but I get the urge to go upscale every now and then. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Albert" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 7:14 AM Subject: RE: Michael Rath/Schmelzer > I played a Schmelzer at an IAJE Conference about 6 years ago. It was > just a conference showroom playing so you couldn't tell a whole lot > about it. The one I played was a .500 bore, and seemed to be based on > the Williams design, but it was much lighter. At least it was much > lighter than the Callichio/Williams I played at the same conference. It > was very responsive, and easy to play, but I prefer a heavier horn. I > think they wanted $2k for it, but I didn't feel like it was $1500 better > than the late 60's 2B that I had (that only cost me $500). It was a > nice horn though. > > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Fred Hudson > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:43 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Michael Rath/Schmelzer > > An inquiry to the List > > Has anyone ever played/have an opinion of a Michael Rath or Schmelzer > trombone. If so how do they compare to a King or Bach or US handmades? > > Fred Hudson > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:16:30 -0500 From: "Peter W. Schroth" To: brucefaske@sbcglobal.net, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Morceau Symphonique trill question Message-ID: <3C88D5CE.35F5C702@rh.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4E1B33E15148C2638FE2F545" D is also a very short 7th position. If you keep the slide in the same place, the next partial up is between E and Eb. At least for me, the interval tends to narrow in a lip trill unless I concentrate very hard on keeping the full distance between the two notes (and probably even if I do concentrate). Thus, what comes out is very close to D and Eb, and if tuning the Eb is more important than tuning the D, you can just move the slide out a little, so the upper note is in the right place. Or am I missing something here? > Bruce Faske wrote: > > Dear list, > > I am soloing with a local band on their spring tour next > month, and the director has asked me to perform the > Guilmant Morceau Symphonique. After 'revisiting' this > solo the past few days for memorization purposes, I was > hit with a question that I never answered. THE TRILL. > This has been a subject of debate with every other > trombone player I know. Some omit the trill and play the > D as a long note, while others lip trill the whole step to > E, even though the music is in E flat, others finger D and > valve trill with the F attachment. I have heard of one > more option.... > > My last college teacher told me that Christian Lindberg > uses the "sympathetic tone" method. (I think that's > what he called it) You start the note in fourth on the D, > slowly start the trill, moving the slide from 4th to 3rd > and back to establish the sound of the half step, and > then stopping in 4th for the majority of the trill > duration. Supposedly, the ear hears the half step, even > though the player is clearly playing a whole step trill. > I hear a definate whole step trill. I want an even trill > that doesn't sound 'humored', and without dimished sound > quality. I have a fast enough Thayer to make the half > step trill work well, but I would like to get some > feedback from other players as to what they have done for > this note. > > Sorry for my blabbering. I'll shut up now. :) Any > comments? > > Bruce > Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="Schroth.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Peter W. Schroth Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Schroth.vcf" Attachment converted: Administrator:Schroth.vcf 2 (TEXT/R*ch) (00007CAF) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:28:19 -0500 From: "Peter W. Schroth" To: brucefaske@sbcglobal.net, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Morceau Symphonique trill question Message-ID: <3C88D893.6D39C406@rh.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------02B75F7CA7AB7722F74B5A6D" Actually, now that I've looked at a position chart, I see I must be wrong, so let's just ignore my ignorant statements. According to the chart, the next interval up is between E and F, not between Eb and E. Even so, I'm getting a trill in 7th that is definitely less than a whole tone interval, so I guess the emphasis is on "the interval tends to narrow in a lip trill." I find also that it sounds better in tune out around a "standard" 7th position, which I guess is consistent with the position chart. "Peter W. Schroth" wrote: > > D is also a very short 7th position. If you keep the slide > in the same place, the next partial up is between E and Eb. > At least for me, the interval tends to narrow in a lip trill > unless I concentrate very hard on keeping the full distance > between the two notes (and probably even if I do > concentrate). Thus, what comes out is very close to D and > Eb, and if tuning the Eb is more important than tuning the > D, you can just move the slide out a little, so the upper > note is in the right place. Or am I missing something here? > Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="Schroth.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Peter W. Schroth Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Schroth.vcf" Attachment converted: Administrator:Schroth.vcf 3 (TEXT/R*ch) (00007CB0) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 15:31:46 From: "posaune rex" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: free Edwards leadpipe Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed except for postage. It's an Edwards T3, brass. It's got one ding in it, which you'll probably want to have removed, and the bottom is slightly out of round. I'll mail it to you for only the cost of postage. First one to reply gets it! stacy werblin swerblin@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:00:47 -0500 From: "Jon Whitaker" To: "Trombone-L" Cc: "Stewart, M. Dee" , "Lenthe, Carl" , Subject: Doug Wright to visit Indiana University Message-ID: <004d01c1c6ba$69a59300$74814f81@ads.iu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01C1C690.808318B0" R. Douglas Wright, Principal Trombonist of the Minnesota Orchestra, will be presenting a solo recital and masterclass on the campus of Indiana University on Sunday, ÊMarch 24. The recital will be in Auer Hall at 2pm and the masterclass at 7pm in MA 452 (both in the IU School of Music complex). Both events are free and open to the public! The recital will include works by Rabe, Serocki, Berio, Weber, Martin and others. This event is sponsored and organized by the Indiana University Chapter of the International Trombone Association (IUITA). Mr. Wright's visit is made possible with the support of Dean Gwyn Richards and the IU School of Music and Selmer. For information, directions or any other questions contact Jon Whitaker at jwwhitak@indiana.edu. You can also find this information on our website at http://www.indiana.edu/~trombone/. Hope to see you all at this event. Jonathan Whitaker Associate Instructor of Trombone Indiana University jwwhitak@indiana.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 16:25:03 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bending pitches Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Quantum Theory Of Trombone - wouldnât want you to think we donât have a sense of irony over here :-D) As someone who has bought a lot of trombones on ebay, I can tell you that there are many times when you think youâre buying a whole trombone and wind up with only half a trombone. As such, I need to refute the concept that thereâs a parallel between quantum physics and trombones. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2322--