TROMBONE-L Digest 2314 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) want to buy Martin 4501 by "Peter Anderson" 2) Re: How loud? was Mpce Question by "Paul Johnston" 3) 2 Bach 50 rotary valves for sale by Joestanko@aol.com 4) Re: How loud? was Re: mpce question by David Buckley 5) 88H Anonymous by "Tom C. Shaddox" 6) RE: 88H Anonymous by Steve Gamble 7) RE: 88H Anonymous by "Jeff Albert" 8) Looking for John Capon by Brad Howland 9) Re: How loud? was Re: mpce question by "Steve Beck" 10) NTC Band by emrose79@pacbell.net 11) Re: 88H Anonymous by "Tom C. Shaddox" 12) RE: NTC Band by "Jeff Albert" 13) Re: 88H Anonymous by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 14) RE: 88H Anonymous by Steve Gamble 15) Re: 88H Anonymous by Roger Hecht 16) Re: How loud? by "Stephen Lange" 17) Re: How loud? was Re: mpce question by "Keith Marr" 18) Re: Looking for John Capon by Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur 19) Re: 88H Anonymous by ALFORDMB@aol.com 20) Trombone position in Sao Paulo (Brazil) by Bollinger1@aol.com 21) Re: NTC Band by "Joe L. Norcross" 22) A different take on loud by Craig Parmerlee 23) Fw: new Bllessing mpcs and mutes for sale cheap by "Charles Levine" 24) RE: A different take on loud by "Jeff Albert" 25) Re: Mechanical music by "robert bergstedt" 26) RE: How loud? was Re: mpce question by "Steve Cordingley" 27) Re: 88H Anonymous by BITEensemble@aol.com 28) Re: A different take on loud by ALFORDMB@aol.com 29) Shires vs. good Elkhart Conns (was Re: 88H Anonymous) by sabutin 30) A Rude Awakening by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 31) NEW SLIDE TUBES!!! by Steve Gamble 32) RE: A Rude Awakening by Steve Gamble 33) RE: Composers & Performers knowing their craft. by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 34) Re: A Rude Awakening by Walter Barrett 35) Electronic Instruments by "Richard B. Human, Jr." 36) RE: A Rude Awakening by Steve Gamble 37) RE: A Rude Awakening by Bruce Guttman 38) On the decline in popularity of the 88H by "Hugh Lee" 39) Re: A Rude Awakening by Andrew Michael 40) Re: A Rude Awakening by "Daniel Pliskin" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:52:24 -0500 From: "Peter Anderson" To: Subject: want to buy Martin 4501 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have a Martin TR 4501 Urbie Green model for sale? thanks. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:59:57 -0600 From: "Paul Johnston" To: "Trombone-L \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: How loud? was Mpce Question Message-ID: I brought this up sometime over the past summer........and now seems like the time again to pose these questions for thought. With the advent of the large equipment have we lost some of the projection and brilliance of sound that we as trombonists had in the past with .525 horns on principal and the like? I realize that there is no and never will be an "easy" way to play but have we had to work harder then we should just to play on the ever growing beasts that we have unleashed when possibly rethinking the size issue might resolve some of the same issues? I personally think I have maxxed out on size with a Elliot mw112 and J cup on my Bass, and that by some standards is considered small. Any bigger and I feel that I sound like (I believe that Doug Yeo coined the term) a Tuba on a stick. I know.........your mileage may vary and to each his own (facial structure, lip size, etc., etc. ...). And I also feel that personal "sound concept" has more weight in the equation then the equipment. At least for Bass Trombonists, I believe that Byron McCullough(sp?) said that all he played was a large trombone, but still a trombone. Enough thoughts and ponderings for today. Paul Bass Trombone - Fort Smith Symphony Bass Trombone - North Arkansas Symphony Adjunct Instructor - Low Brass - UA Fort Smith ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Paul Johnston - MCSE, MCT Instructor Business and Professional Institute University of Arkansas - Fort Smith 5210 Grand Ave. P.O. Box 3649 Fort Smith, AR 72913-3649 (479)788-7777 Fax (479)788-7780 pjohnsto@systema.westark.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:42:52 EST From: Joestanko@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: 2 Bach 50 rotary valves for sale Message-ID: <138.a1f610b.29ae90bc@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_138.a1f610b.29ae90bc_boundary" 2 complete Bach 50 rotary valves, from an old dependent valve section - ports are positioned accordingly, and include stop arms and caps. No additional tubing is included, just the valves. $95 plus $5 shipping for the pair. Please email privately. Joe Stanko ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:16:53 -0500 From: David Buckley To: glangfur@yahoo.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: How loud? was Re: mpce question Message-ID: <3C7D3EB5.F8069FC5@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I play in an amateur community orchestra with a professional conductor, obviously nowhere near Gabriel's level. Also play in a brass band and a concert band and for many years conducted a brass band. The question of how loud is loud is always a factor. In brass band and concert band I often play close to my volume limits on a Bach 36 with a large mouthpiece. In the orchestra I normally play my Conn 88H also with a large -Doug Elliot 103, G cup and shank- and rarely play at peak volume. However we just did Tchaik 6 and last fall The Planets and in both of those I played at my peak for considerable stretches, this in a 750 seat hall with decent acoustics. The setup worked well too for the quiet passages. The conductor clearly was happy with these volumes and experienced musicians in the audience were also. Is my peak volume the same as Joe Alessi or Ian Bousfield? No, but for sure but I still can fill the 88h and it seems to be needed. However I'm just an old amateur but am probably pretty typical of many on the list. Now if I were only young and strong again!! Dave Buckley. Gabriel Langfur wrote: > --- "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." wrote: > > However, I do feel that we as > > trombonists need to deal with this thing of "Just how > > loud do we have to play anyway?" > > Great question Paul. > > I spend much much more time and energy in my freelance > career figuring out how to play with an exciting sound at a > lower volume than I do trying to play more loudly. In the > orchestras I play with most of the time, I've never had to > struggle to put out a big enough sound; the only time that > happens is when I sub with the Boston Symphony or Pops - > and even there I am much more concerned with matching the > quality of sound, articulations and releases of the players > around me than I am with volume. > > Granted, most of my playing is with regional and freelance > orchestras. I know it's quite different in full-time > symphony orchestras. But one of my orchestras, the RI Phil, > uses a string section as large as most salaried orchestras: > 7 basses, 9 cellos, etc., and we still never have to push > really hard to make the appropriate loud dynamics. > > So my question is this - and I'm really curious: how many > of the orchestral players on the list - being really honest > with ourselves - really ever have to play as loud as their > bodies and equipment will allow? How many of us are really > pushed very often to the limits of our capacity for loud > dynamics? > > Gabe > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > http://greetings.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:35:08 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Cc: jfjunkin.mail.utexas.edu@fnc.fujitsu.com Subject: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <3C7D5F1C.6D054255@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My name's Tom Shaddox and I love the sound of the Conn 88H in the hand of a trombonist who can really play. I like the beautiful, focused crystalline sound both in solo playing and in large ensembles. I attended the Dallas Wind Symphony concert last night, and Conn man Bob Burnham was on first part. I don't know what it sounds like to the guys and gals on the stage, but from Box N in the back of the hall (but the Meyerson isn't a large hall), the Conn is the only trombone that distinctly stands out from the trumpets, French horns, euphoniums and tubas with a unique voice - and what a beautiful, noble and articulate voice it is. What a shame that these wonderful instruments have fallen out of fashion as the premiere players have wondered off down the modern on-stage sound concept path. I wonder if they'd have a change of heart if they could sit in the audience with me and hear what it sounds like out there? But then again, maybe it's just me. Maybe I just got carried away during trombonist/composer E.E. Bagley's "National Emblem". Now that I've publicly admitted I like the 88H sound, maybe I can begin to deal with my problem. Perhaps in time, I can learn to favor the dark, indistinct and mysterious sounds that players infinitely superior to me feel is the proper voice for our instrument in today's musical climate. Thanks for listening, it really helps to talk about it. Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:47:15 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <01C1BFA6.08DC0D80.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tom, I have a very fine 88H and I play it not infrequently for a variety of purposes. But my favorite horn is a big ol' Edwards. What some call indistinct, others call good blend. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Tom C. Shaddox [SMTP:Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 3:35 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: 88H Anonymous My name's Tom Shaddox and I love the sound of the Conn 88H in the hand of a trombonist who can really play. I like the beautiful, focused crystalline sound both in solo playing and in large ensembles. I attended the Dallas Wind Symphony concert last night, and Conn man Bob Burnham was on first part. I don't know what it sounds like to the guys and gals on the stage, but from Box N in the back of the hall (but the Meyerson isn't a large hall), the Conn is the only trombone that distinctly stands out from the trumpets, French horns, euphoniums and tubas with a unique voice - and what a beautiful, noble and articulate voice it is. What a shame that these wonderful instruments have fallen out of fashion as the premiere players have wondered off down the modern on-stage sound concept path. I wonder if they'd have a change of heart if they could sit in the audience with me and hear what it sounds like out there? But then again, maybe it's just me. Maybe I just got carried away during trombonist/composer E.E. Bagley's "National Emblem". Now that I've publicly admitted I like the 88H sound, maybe I can begin to deal with my problem. Perhaps in time, I can learn to favor the dark, indistinct and mysterious sounds that players infinitely superior to me feel is the proper voice for our instrument in today's musical climate. Thanks for listening, it really helps to talk about it. Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:05:00 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "Trombones and related Forum." Subject: RE: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <008e01c1bfe3$2ed384e0$4e239d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the "big 'ol Edwards" or whatever stereotype we use to describe new-big-made-to-play-loud gear, is kind of like a muscle car. It might be designed for drag racing, but you can use it to drive around on Sunday afternoon too, it's all up to the driver. If a large number of the drivers tend to drag race through school zones however, the cars themselves start to get a bad rap, instead of the drivers that deserve it. Then some people prefer British cars...that's why there's more than one kind. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Gamble Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 4:47 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: 88H Anonymous Hi Tom, I have a very fine 88H and I play it not infrequently for a variety of purposes. But my favorite horn is a big ol' Edwards. What some call indistinct, others call good blend. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Tom C. Shaddox [SMTP:Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 3:35 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: 88H Anonymous My name's Tom Shaddox and I love the sound of the Conn 88H in the hand of a trombonist who can really play. I like the beautiful, focused crystalline sound both in solo playing and in large ensembles. I attended the Dallas Wind Symphony concert last night, and Conn man Bob Burnham was on first part. I don't know what it sounds like to the guys and gals on the stage, but from Box N in the back of the hall (but the Meyerson isn't a large hall), the Conn is the only trombone that distinctly stands out from the trumpets, French horns, euphoniums and tubas with a unique voice - and what a beautiful, noble and articulate voice it is. What a shame that these wonderful instruments have fallen out of fashion as the premiere players have wondered off down the modern on-stage sound concept path. I wonder if they'd have a change of heart if they could sit in the audience with me and hear what it sounds like out there? But then again, maybe it's just me. Maybe I just got carried away during trombonist/composer E.E. Bagley's "National Emblem". Now that I've publicly admitted I like the 88H sound, maybe I can begin to deal with my problem. Perhaps in time, I can learn to favor the dark, indistinct and mysterious sounds that players infinitely superior to me feel is the proper voice for our instrument in today's musical climate. Thanks for listening, it really helps to talk about it. Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:29:36 -0800 From: Brad Howland To: Trombone-L Subject: Looking for John Capon Message-ID: <003201c1bfe6$9ea0b4c0$a11a4118@gv.shawcable.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Are you around John? I could use your phone number or e mail address, because I owe you some money! Regards, Brad Howland ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:25:13 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: How loud? was Re: mpce question Message-ID: <002e01c1bfe6$03d72820$1d310923@cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Gabriel Langfur" So my question is this - and I'm really curious: how many > of the orchestral players on the list - being really honest with ourselves - really ever have to play as loud as their bodies and equipment will allow? Gabe, I play in many bands. A "big Band, an orchestra, a circus pick-up band, Community Band, an Alumni band - etc. etc. The only band that I have ever been taxed to the max as it were was a marching band. I'm not going to dispute others, and there are probably some jazz players who would differ, but I have never played "musically" and had to play as loud as I could. Certainly if that were a regular occurrence I would find another "band" to play in. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:33:07 -0800 From: emrose79@pacbell.net To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: NTC Band Message-ID: <3C7D6CB3.2FBCBC2F@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just got back from NTC Great Lakes (my step-son just graduated from boot camp). In between watching the "kid", I was watching the base band (or at least the trombones). They seem to be playing Bach 42s. Are these G.I.? The announcer also said that the band was formed in 1903 by John Philip Souza, or at least directed by him. Is this true? I had alsways thought that he had directed only the USMC band. Thanks Ed ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:40:38 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: "sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org" Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <3C7D6E76.FB175797@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I have a very fine 88H and I play it not infrequently for a variety of > purposes. But my favorite horn is a big ol' Edwards. What some call > indistinct, others call good blend. > Two different topics, Steve? I was talking about listen to horns, and you seem to be, from your paragraph construction, talking about playing them. Or do you feel there's by-in-large no difference in the sound behind the horn and to the audience several dozen meters or more away? Sincerely, Tom ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:48:35 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: NTC Band Message-ID: <009101c1bfe9$45a57100$4e239d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is both a Navy band and a Marine band stationed in or near New Orleans, and whenever I see them in Mardi Gras parades or whatever, most of the bones are playing 42Bs. FWIW Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of emrose79@pacbell.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 5:33 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: NTC Band I just got back from NTC Great Lakes (my step-son just graduated from boot camp). In between watching the "kid", I was watching the base band (or at least the trombones). They seem to be playing Bach 42s. Are these G.I.? The announcer also said that the band was formed in 1903 by John Philip Souza, or at least directed by him. Is this true? I had alsways thought that he had directed only the USMC band. Thanks Ed ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:59:50 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <3d.1a0019b0.29aeccf6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Compared to a lot of other brass and even tho they get bad press sometimes on this list them there 18H's ain't that bad either. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:13:06 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'Tom C. Shaddox'" , "sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org" Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <01C1BFB2.085A3CE0.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I was actually making reference to your Conn 88H player contrasting the horns etc. with a "distinct...unique voice." I prefer a more blended brass section sound. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Tom C. Shaddox [SMTP:Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 4:41 PM To: sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org Cc: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: 88H Anonymous Steve wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I have a very fine 88H and I play it not infrequently for a variety of > purposes. But my favorite horn is a big ol' Edwards. What some call > indistinct, others call good blend. > Two different topics, Steve? I was talking about listen to horns, and you seem to be, from your paragraph construction, talking about playing them. Or do you feel there's by-in-large no difference in the sound behind the horn and to the audience several dozen meters or more away? Sincerely, Tom ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:24:26 -0500 From: Roger Hecht To: Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020227192345.00a66a90@pop.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5382686==_.ALT" At 04:35 PM 2/27/2002 -0600, Tom C. Shaddox wrote: My name's Tom Shaddox and I love the sound of the Conn 88H in the hand of a trombonist who can really play. I like the beautiful, focused crystalline sound both in solo playing and in large ensembles. What a shame that these wonderful instruments have fallen out of fashion as the premiere players have wondered off down the modern on-stage sound concept path. I wonder if they'd have a change of heart if they could sit in the audience with me and hear what it sounds like out there? Did they really fall out of fashion? I had several 88H's during the 60s. My memory is that their manufacturing quality just deteriorated during that time. I think even Remington was saying that, as he urged Conn to make the instrument heavier. They did make two prototypes, one of which I tried and liked, but it wasn't for sale. Later I turned to bass, so that had approached the end of my experience with the subject. But I do know I had wished I could find one I liked. I just never did. And some were pretty awful. Perhaps in time, I can learn to favor the dark, indistinct and mysterious sounds I do agree with this description of a lot of the sound I hear today. Roger Hecht ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:52:06 -0600 From: "Stephen Lange" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: How loud? Message-ID: <002f01c1bff2$25302e70$6401a8c0@stephen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a topic I've always been interested in as well!! And yes, I do believe that the hall (sheer size and the materials used within the hall) and the size of the orchestra has very much to do with it. Here are some observations - I don't know if I'm right or not, but maybe some others can comment. Right after I had graduated from school, I was playing on some pretty big equipment (Edwards horn with the equivalent of a 4G mouthpiece.) In school the size of the orchestra was HUGE, they had as many people involved in one concert as possible - that meant as many as 10 double basses,12 or 14 cellos, etc... So the equipment I was using was great for that particular setting, especially being in New York, and most of our concerts were at Avery Fisher Hall. I always heard the recording right after we did a concert so I could learn from it - in particular I was interested in my perception of dynamics while I was playing, then as I listened back to the tape, see if my perception of dynamics was accurate. In the beginning, there were lots of surprises, but as I repeated this process, I was better able to play to how I wanted it to sound. Or so I thought!!! One time a friend of mine bootlegged a concert that I had played in, and I had two copies: the recording engineer's copy and the bootleg. They sounded completely different - I was too loud in the engineer's copy and not loud enough on the bootleg. So I think you have to be careful about taking the approach I took basing how loud or soft you play based solely on recordings. Then I played in the San Antonio Symphony for year, where the orchestra was much smaller than the school orchestras. And for pops concerts and kiddy shows, the strings would equalize for some time off, making the string section even smaller - and here I am with a 4G!!!! Obviously I knew to play softer dynamic range, but on a big horn much of the articulation was lost. Just when I had figured out that I needed to go to some sort of equipment to allow my sound to get brighter faster (smaller mouthpiece, for example), I left to go to the Saint Louis Symphony. I'm still playing on that 4G equivalent mouthpiece, and it seems to be working okay, although I'm still fascinated with the balance issues. We have a very lush, strong string section, but our hall is strange in a way, - I'm still trying to figure it out. After listening to may concerts out in the hall and playing in the orchestra, and knowing what it feels like on stage to play, I'm absolutely amazed at how strong I perceive the brass playing (and myself, struggling to keep with everyone else at times,) yet out in the hall it sounds nothing like it feels. As far as the sound of hall goes, when our orchestra goes on tour, playing the same concert in each venue, I do seem to notice a difference in how I personally play. If the hall is particularly ambient, I try to use a little sharper articulation. If the hall is particularly dry, I try to play a little broader, depending on the piece, of course. Everyone in the orchestra seems to adjust - some halls we adjust quicker than others. I'm not sure if I have any type of conclusion to this topic, but as for now, I simply try to play the dynamics on the page relative to what's going on in the orchestra and my immediate brass neighbors, and hope for the best!!! I would love to hear some other observations! Steve Lange St. Louis Symphony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 11:18 AM Subject: How loud? was Re: mpce question > --- "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." wrote: > > However, I do feel that we as > > trombonists need to deal with this thing of "Just how > > loud do we have to play anyway?" > > Great question Paul. > > I spend much much more time and energy in my freelance > career figuring out how to play with an exciting sound at a > lower volume than I do trying to play more loudly. In the > orchestras I play with most of the time, I've never had to > struggle to put out a big enough sound; the only time that > happens is when I sub with the Boston Symphony or Pops - > and even there I am much more concerned with matching the > quality of sound, articulations and releases of the players > around me than I am with volume. > > Granted, most of my playing is with regional and freelance > orchestras. I know it's quite different in full-time > symphony orchestras. But one of my orchestras, the RI Phil, > uses a string section as large as most salaried orchestras: > 7 basses, 9 cellos, etc., and we still never have to push > really hard to make the appropriate loud dynamics. > > So my question is this - and I'm really curious: how many > of the orchestral players on the list - being really honest > with ourselves - really ever have to play as loud as their > bodies and equipment will allow? How many of us are really > pushed very often to the limits of our capacity for loud > dynamics? > > Gabe > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:06:00 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: How loud? was Re: mpce question Message-ID: <002901c1bff4$1a7b53e0$1b4086d9@tiny> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I play in a brass band, an orchestra, and a big band. Fortissimo in the big band is a comfortable loud blow, not OTT. In brass band I often have to play almost as loud as possible, but this is due, in my often voiced (and unwelcome) opinion to the band playing way over dynamics most of the time. I hardly ever play much more than forte in orchestra, and am often told to tone it down then if we get a guest conductor. I well remember a Beethoven 6th where I never played my alto louder than mp all through the two movements. Apparently there's a story about Solti (notorious for asking trombones to play quieter) as a guest conductor sending a letter weeks before he was due to conduct, asking the leader to remind the trombones not to play too loud. Incidentally Denis Wick has some interesting comments about relative dynamics in his book Trombone Technique. Basically as follows: Berlioz - play dynamics exactly as written Weber - play one dynamic down from written - written for smaller instruments, same goes for Beethoven, Mozart etc. Sibelius - play dynamics one or two degrees louder - Sibelius's orchestra was undermanned in the strings. The loudest trombone playing I ever heard was from the pit at the London West End performance of Jesus Christ Superstar. Reminiscent of Michael Caine in the Italian Job ("You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!") Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 11:25 PM Subject: Re: How loud? was Re: mpce question > From: "Gabriel Langfur" So my question is this - and I'm really curious: > how many > > of the orchestral players on the list - being really honest with > ourselves - really ever have to play as loud as their bodies and equipment > will allow? > > Gabe, I play in many bands. A "big Band, an orchestra, a circus pick-up > band, Community Band, an Alumni band - etc. etc. > > The only band that I have ever been taxed to the max as it were was a > marching band. I'm not going to dispute others, and there are probably some > jazz players who would differ, but I have never played "musically" and had > to play as loud as I could. Certainly if that were a regular occurrence I > would find another "band" to play in. > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:24:17 -0500 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur To: bhowland@shaw.ca Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Looking for John Capon Message-ID: <3C7D86C1.3DDF1E00@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brad, Ahhhh, yeah, I'm John Capon. About that money you owe me... Peter Collins oops, I mean John Capon Brad Howland wrote: > > Are you around John? I could use your phone number or e mail address, > because I owe you some money! > > Regards, > Brad Howland ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:30:10 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <107.db16241.29aefe42@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/27/2002 5:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com writes: > What a shame that these wonderful instruments have fallen out of fashion > as the premiere players have wondered off down the modern on-stage > sound concept path. I wonder if they'd have a change of heart if they > could sit in the audience with me and hear what it sounds like out > there? I'm not that familiar with the 88H sound but I certainly agree with what you are basically saying. Mike Alford ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:51:55 EST From: Bollinger1@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Trombone position in Sao Paulo (Brazil) Message-ID: <168.98c4ce5.29af035b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Dear trombonists, I'm writing from South America on behalf of the Sao Paulo State Symphony Orchestra. Following a previous application and audition process, the orchestra continues its search for a coprincipal trombonist. Again, this is a full-time employment opportunity which provides a comfortable salary for living in Brazil and 2-months paid vacation among other benefits (i.e., instrument insurance, immigration processing, travel, etc.). The orchestra's activities include regular concerts in its own home theater (Sala Sao Paulo), recording projects with BIS Records (Germany) and international touring engagements under Columbia Artist Management International. At present, the only required materials for screening is a recently prepared cassette of a concerto and several orchestral excerpts along with an updated resume. The music director, Maestro John Neschling, will review all materials personally and grant a 6-month or one-year invitation (all expenses with salary) whereby the candidate will be expected to make a live audition during his/her stay period in Sao Paulo. For now all materials may be forwarded to the following address (there's no deadline but interested candidates are encouraged to send a tape and resume as soon as possible since the opening is immediate): Darrin C. Milling Rua S,,o Vicente de Paulo, 650 Apto. 64 Santa Cecilia - S,,o Paulo - SP CEP 01229-010 Brazil You may review information available about the orchestra, audition repertoire lists, etc. at www.osesp.art.br (select the English text button and go to "News"). Also, you may familiarize yourself with Sao Paulo by visiting http://www.saopaulo.sp.gov.br/ingles/saopaulo/index.htm Thank you for your time and best wishes to all! Sincerely, Darrin C. Milling Bass Trombonist S,,o State Symphony Orchestra P.S. If you wish, please read below for orientation of South America. FACTS TO NOTE: -South America is the fourth largest continent in the world. -There 13 countries on the continent whereby 4 are non-Spanish speaking- Brazil [Portuguese], Suriname [Dutch], Guyana [English], French Guiana [French]. -Countries & Capitals of South America: Argentina (Buenos Aires) Bolivia (La Paz; Sucre) Brazil (Brasilia- *Portuguese) Chile (Santiago) Colombia (Bogota) Ecuador (Quito) French Guiana (Cayenne- *French) Guyana (Georgetown- *English lang.) Paraguay (Asuncion) Peru (Lima) Suriname (Paramaribo- *Dutch lang.) Uruguay (Montevideo) Venezuela (Caracas) -1930s thru 1980s the majority of South American nations pursued economic development strategies based on a system of import substitution. Between 1980 and 1990, gross domestic product (GDP) per capita measured in constant dollars declined for every South American nation, except Brazil, Colombia, and Chile. -Brazil is the 5th largest country in the world, consists of 27 states, and has the 8th largest economy. -Sao Paulo is the 3rd largest populated city in the world and the reference point for all Latin America's economy. -Sao Paulo city has approximately 114 theaters, 68 museums, and 10 million inhabitants. (see http://www.saopaulo.sp.gov.br/ingles/saopaulo/index.htm for further facts, etc.) -It's true that the only football people love here is soccer; however, you can catch NFL football games on ESPN which is provided by all of Brazil's cable providers. ;) ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:28:46 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: NTC Band Message-ID: <001101c1c010$77096a40$a0deaec7@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sousa was in the Navy in 1917-18 during WW1. He was in charge of the band program at the Great Lakes Center. He was paid a dollar a month at his own request. He joined at the bequest of Capt. later Adm. Moffett and wrote "I joined the reserves on the last day of May Gave up my band and a thousand a day a dollar a month is my government pay My God how the money rolls in" Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: NTC Band > I just got back from NTC Great Lakes (my step-son just graduated from > boot camp). In between watching the "kid", I was watching the base band > (or at least the trombones). They seem to be playing Bach 42s. Are these > G.I.? The announcer also said that the band was formed in 1903 by John > Philip Souza, or at least directed by him. Is this true? I had alsways > thought that he had directed only the USMC band. > Thanks > Ed > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:55:08 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: A different take on loud Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020227234350.028b8c60@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ensembles seem to be very loud everywhere. Playing at low dynamic levels is becoming a lost art. (Actually observing dynamics in any form seems to be on the verge of becoming a lost art in a lot of places.) I think there is a fairly strong consensus on those points. That doesn't completely account for the trend to super sized mouthpieces. Sometimes those big mouthpieces allow more volume, but mainly they just kill the overtones, giving the sound more (choose your favorite adjective) "core", "mellowness", or "woofiness". That character sounds lovely in the practice room, but it doesn't do much in ensemble because the anemic overtones allow the sound die about 3 feet from the bell. There is nothing new in the above. That has been batted around at length. Here's the different angle. I notice that a high percentage of my colleagues have significant hearing loss. I probably have some, but I wear earplugs every time I play in any ensemble. I am determined not to lose any more hearing to music. What is the first to go when you have a hearing loss? In the majority of cases, the first thing to go is the higher frequencies. So my theory about the big mouthpieces is that a lot of players simply can't hear the full timbre of the trombone, so they don't notice what they are missing when they go to larger pieces. And these people with the greatest hearing loss are generally the most successful, most experienced musicians who are emulated by others. Just a theory. Any takers on that one? Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:12:39 -0600 From: "Charles Levine" To: "tlist" Subject: Fw: new Bllessing mpcs and mutes for sale cheap Message-ID: <001201c1c016$8cc5a0a0$dcb01ad1@D7493111> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C1BFE4.404B4D10" ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Levine To: tlist Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 7:44 AM Subject: new Bllessing mpcs and mutes for sale cheap The following items are BRAND NEW (NEVER PLAYED) in original packageÊÊÊ Blessing 6 1/2ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ( exact Bach copies) 12 C $22 each ppd Harmon wow wow BRAND NEW $38 ppd Harmon straight $25 (brand new) ppd ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:21:32 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: A different take on loud Message-ID: <00af01c1c017$c8c5edc0$4e239d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting theory, but it counts on the fact that EVERYONE that we know who would tell us if we sounded like we were playing from the bottom of a well, has similar hearing loss. That is difficult to believe. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:55 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: A different take on loud Ensembles seem to be very loud everywhere. Playing at low dynamic levels is becoming a lost art. (Actually observing dynamics in any form seems to be on the verge of becoming a lost art in a lot of places.) I think there is a fairly strong consensus on those points. That doesn't completely account for the trend to super sized mouthpieces. Sometimes those big mouthpieces allow more volume, but mainly they just kill the overtones, giving the sound more (choose your favorite adjective) "core", "mellowness", or "woofiness". That character sounds lovely in the practice room, but it doesn't do much in ensemble because the anemic overtones allow the sound die about 3 feet from the bell. There is nothing new in the above. That has been batted around at length. Here's the different angle. I notice that a high percentage of my colleagues have significant hearing loss. I probably have some, but I wear earplugs every time I play in any ensemble. I am determined not to lose any more hearing to music. What is the first to go when you have a hearing loss? In the majority of cases, the first thing to go is the higher frequencies. So my theory about the big mouthpieces is that a lot of players simply can't hear the full timbre of the trombone, so they don't notice what they are missing when they go to larger pieces. And these people with the greatest hearing loss are generally the most successful, most experienced musicians who are emulated by others. Just a theory. Any takers on that one? Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:53:57 -0800 From: "robert bergstedt" To: "Craig Parmerlee" Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Mechanical music Message-ID: <00a401c1c027$51c4e400$b9ddd8d1@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard that same piece and changed stations before I heard 20 seconds of it. Bob Bergstedt ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Parmerlee To: Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: Mechanical music > At 09:35 PM 2/26/2002 -0800, jimandcat@juno.com wrote: > > >I kept looking for something to add. But you said it and summed it up > >perfectly "...the music will live...Some electronics should be used > >judiciously to extend the aural palette of the orchestra, but not to > >replace the essential live performance by humans." That has been a > >constant in my life experience, and what audiences frequently repeat to > >me. They are more fascinated by the artists' performance of music (humans) > >than the sound (bits and bytes) reproduction in electronic media. > > > Coincidentally, there was a short piece on NPR (All Things Considered, I > think) yesterday that featured a pair of San Francisco performers who took > the stage with dueling notebook computers. They performed a composition > using pre-programmed sound samples. > > In my response to Jon, I posed the question how much anybody would be > willing to spend to see a computer play the Pines of Rome. I meant that as > a rhetorical question, but after listening to this feature I'm not so > sure. In my own life, I book myself out playing trombone over > computer-based MIDI tracks for live background music. People pay a bit of > money for this, but I don't attribute much of that to the computer. The > mechanical music is a means to an end, not a performance worthy of > attention by itself. > > However, I'll admit the music generated by these two computers on NPR was > interesting. The sound samples were of noises that occur in a hospital > operating room. Who would have thought that the sound of liposuction could > be artistic? I guess it pays to have an open mind about everything. > > Cheers, > Craig > > P.S. I could only listen to this track for about 20 seconds before I was > overcome by the mental image of doctors dancing around an operating table > doing musical liposuction on a bloated body, much like you marinate a > Thanksgiving turkey. It wasn't the mental image I needed at that moment. > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:20:35 -0000 From: "Steve Cordingley" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: How loud? was Re: mpce question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Risky stuff, but I've set everything I can find to Text, so I hope, hope, hope, this isn't arriving your end as HTML. If it comes out HTML I'll shoot myself in the morning and you'll never hear from me again... I don't know what's happening in the US, but in the UK, acoustic screens protect some sections of the orchestra and the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra is a case in point. They are protected (I am told) most commonly from the Trombones. The trombone section of this orchestra were measured and found to produce far more volume than would be acceptable for workers in an industrial setting and therefore the workers in front needed to be protected. I'm a returning player but when I was learning the first time around I was coached by the principal Trombone from the CBSO and he spent about six or eight months doing nothing at all other than teaching me breathing and weight with the primary aim being control - and volume. It wasn't all he taught me, but it was an important issue for him as a professional player. I thought I'd got there when my school stopped me practicing at lunchtime because I was drowning the 40 strong choir three rooms away. There's an orchestra here in the UK called the New Queen's Hall Orchestra and the man that conceived it believes that the Trombone - after the Second World War - is what brought about a fundamental change in symphony orchestra sound. This is not my argument, you understand, but I feel it has merit. The argument goes: Trombone design (initially and primarily in the US and driven by the Big Bands through the 1940s) changes; they get bigger, brighter and louder - much louder. Many other sections grow - especially strings - to compete/balance the sound. Steel strings are introduced to produce more strident and essentially loud, sound and at the same time, all brass instruments begin to do what Trombones do (go ever louder) and the orchestra gets reworked over the next twenty years. The outcome is that the end of a good symphony can leave you breathless with its majesty and power but that the orchestra is overall considerably louder than it was thirty years ago. He calls it the Rock & Roll orchestra sound and the way Holst sounds when performed now when compared with the 1930s is a good example. So in some ways it's a period orchestra. But to let it end there is to miss the point they are trying to make. I've been to rehearsals and performances of the New Queen's Hall Orchestra and have a couple of recordings. What they do is use brass players that have returned to (preferably) pre-war but at least small bore instruments, returned the string sections to gut and use pre-war woodwind if at all possible. They also frequently re-work the seating to put first and seconds either side of the conductor and so on. The outcome is a revelation for anything written before the 1940's. Another issue that is very much connected to this (for me) is that when I was growing up, French, English, American orchestras all sounded different. Now they mostly sound the same and research has shown that the majority of concertgoers cannot name the orchestra they have just heard. But they do know the name of the celebrity on stage, be it a conductor, soloist or whatever. Orchestra sound has already merged into a highly proficient but predictable sameness. UK musicians are finding it ever harder to make a living, stable long-term employment in symphony orchestras seems to be a thing of the past and most now use floating rosters of freelance players and individual sound is dead or dying. UK orchestras - even the top such as the LSO and the CBSO are struggling for survival and from what I've already seen on the List, this is happening in the US too. We thought provincial orchestras there were safe because they had good public funding to support them. Strong stuff, but pertinent to the question of loudness, I feel. Yours, in text (I hope!) Steve in England ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:49:30 EST From: BITEensemble@aol.com To: Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: 88H Anonymous Message-ID: <5f.2336524c.29af734a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_5f.2336524c.29af734a_boundary" In a message dated 2/27/02 5:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com writes: My name's Tom Shaddox and I love the sound of the Conn 88H in the hand of a trombonist who can really play. I like the beautiful, focused crystalline sound both in solo playing and in large ensembles. I attended the Dallas Wind Symphony concert last night, and Conn man Bob Burnham was on first part. I don't know what it sounds like to the guys and gals on the stage, but from Box N in the back of the hall (but the Meyerson isn't a large hall), the Conn is the only trombone that distinctly stands out from the trumpets, French horns, euphoniums and tubas with a unique voice - and what a beautiful, noble and articulate voice it is. What a shame that these wonderful instruments have fallen out of fashion as the premiere players have wondered off down the modern on-stage sound concept path. I wonder if they'd have a change of heart if they could sit in the audience with me and hear what it sounds like out there? But then again, maybe it's just me. Maybe I just got carried away during trombonist/composer E.E. Bagley's "National Emblem". Now that I've publicly admitted I like the 88H sound, maybe I can begin to deal with my problem. Perhaps in time, I can learn to favor the dark, indistinct and mysterious sounds that players infinitely superior to me feel is the proper voice for our instrument in today's musical climate. Thanks for listening, it really helps to talk about it. Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor Quite frankly - Conn 88h's have some problems. I have wonderful Elkhart 88h, I too love the sound, but the air does tend to "back up" a bit. The valve is garbage. Friday I was at Steve Shires' place and we compared my Elkhart with my "modern Elkhart" made by Steve. Steve's horn won every time with the only exception being multiple tonguing in the altissimo register (yes, I brought someone not affiliated with Steve to listen as well). The horn Steve made for me in '96 (yup, I was Shires before Shires was cool) is just easier to play. That is the bottom line. If I can attain the same or better result from my Shires AND it is easier - I am going to play my Shires. The horn I have is as close to an 88h as you can get with a Shires (2rvet7 bell, Shires rotary valve, standard rose brass slide). Please do not flame me about Steve or his horns. You could replace Steve's name with Bach or King or Walmart brand if that is what you like. It comes down to doing the job. If you can do the job on your 88H great - do it. For me - I would rather not have to work so hard to make music. -Wes ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:52:51 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: A different take on loud Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/27/2002 11:50:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: > What is the first to go when you have a hearing loss? In the majority of > cases, the first thing to go is the higher frequencies. So my theory about > the big mouthpieces is that a lot of players simply can't hear the full > timbre of the trombone, so they don't notice what they are missing when > they go to larger pieces. ---------------------------- Good observation. Makes sense to me. Mike Alford ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:00:24 -0500 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Shires vs. good Elkhart Conns (was Re: 88H Anonymous) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Quite frankly - Conn 88h's have some problems. I have wonderful Elkhart 88h, I too love the sound, but the air does tend to "back up" a bit. The valve is garbage. Friday I was at Steve Shires' place and we compared my Elkhart with my "modern Elkhart" made by Steve. Steve's horn won every time with the only exception being multiple tonguing in the altissimo register (yes, I brought someone not affiliated with Steve to listen as well). The horn Steve made for me in '96 (yup, I was Shires before Shires was cool) is just easier to play. That is the bottom line. If I can attain the same or better result from my Shires AND it is easier - I am going to play my Shires. The horn I have is as close to an 88h as you can get with a Shires (2rvet7 bell, Shires rotary valve, standard rose brass slide). Please do not flame me about Steve or his horns. You could replace Steve's name with Bach or King or Walmart brand if that is what you like. It comes down to doing the job. If you can do the job on your 88H great - do it. For me - I would rather not have to work so hard to make music. -Wes ============================================================================ Hi all... This parallels my experience w/Steve's horns almost exactly. (Except for the altissimo tonguing.) I was playing on a '30s Conn 76H (red brass, slide tuning, .525/547 dual bore) and was absolutely in love w/the sound of the horn as an jazz solo instrument...big, strong, very good range up to about the 12th partial...it was a bit of a chore to throw that big slide around, and physically VERY demanding to play, but if I kept myself in shape, I could do almost everything short of very bright or extreme control lead work on it (really aggressive jazz, pop and latin lead or older big band lead ). After a year of fine tuning and learning how to play my Shires .525 (red brass 8" VE bell (which means version Elkhart), regular weight slides in a Conn configuration...narrower rather than wide like Bachs...it plays better than the 76H in every way. Easier, faster, higher, lower...just flat out better than the best horn (for my purposes) I had previously ever been able to find. And I STILL haven't fine tuned it past the horn...I'm playing a m'pce that could probably be better matched to the horn, but I don't want to open that can of worms just yet. The only thing it lacks compared to the 76H is a certain almost supernatural mass of sound in the middle register, and I think that's the bore size rather than the horn. Lewis Kahn, who also plays '30s Conns around the same size and has a few that are at least as good as my 76H, tried the horn the other day, and his eyes got really big. All he had to say was "It's so OPEN !!! It's even more open than THIS !!!", meaning the '30s 14H he was playing. Wes nails the essential difference...older Conns produce great results, but they are vary hard to play. Steve Shires seems to have found a way to build horns that are easier to play and yet deliver the same (or better) results as classic Conns. One upshot of this seems to be that if you DO work as hard on his horns as you do on old Conns, you get MORE. I am certainly getting more from mine, anyway...more range, MUCH more speed (his horns respond substantially faster than the Conns, too), better characteristics at volume. W/the open wraps + better valves, more from the triggers. And a GREAT sound. They are just better. I now have a Shires .500 bore, a .547 and a bass as well. Although I haven't spent nearly as much time on them yet nor are they as fine tuned as my .525 (leadpipes, tuning slides, etc.), they too seem "better" to me than the equivalent old horns I have played by preference over the last 30 years. The .500, which of these other three instruments is the one I have played the most, has already replaced my classic Earl Williams 6 and Conn 32H Burkle model as my small horn of choice, and the few gigs I have played on the .547 have made me think that it is perhaps the best of the bunch...just a little too big for most of the work I'm doing these days. Again...they are just easier to play. More open, more consistent through the registers, and yet less effortful. Works for me... The bass...I won't really know until I use it exclusively for a few weeks w/out switching back and forth from tenor, but in side by side comparisons w/my Dave Taylor Holton (one of the Holtons he and John "Peppy" Pettinato customized in the '70s), although a much different design...more orchestral, bigger sound concept...it surely is better in terms of the money ranges of the bass trombone. It just LOCKS down there. Again...easier. Just thought I'd weigh in w/this...if these horns had been available 30 years ago, I know I would have been a better player earlier in my life. The things I am learning how to do on my Shires .525 just never really OCCURRED to me before I got the horn. (Well...they did occur to me, but when I tried to do them on other instruments it also occurred to me that I couldn't do them...) Later... Sam ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:14:38 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: A Rude Awakening Message-ID: <000701c1c062$42a06360$775a4d0c@trbnplyr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List, I would like to relate an incident that has recently happened to one of my students, and all of the parties involved shall remain nameless. I have a student who is a high school senior and who scholastically is EXCELLENT--a score of 31 on the ACT, which pretty much guarantees him admittance into any college of his choice, with a promise of scholarship money, and he's carrying a strong 4.0 GPA. However, he happens to be a part of a high school band program that, quite frankly, is not very good. After hearing me play in church one Sunday morning, his parents see that their son needs private instruction, and I gladly take him on, but he's a junior, and he has come to me several days late and several dollars short. This student of mine would really like to go into music education, and I want to do everything that I can to help, naturally. He has auditioned for one school, and while the committee sees that his ACT test score is excellent, they are not very impressed with his audition. He is going to another school on Friday, and after talking with the trombone professor at this school, he asks me very pointed questions such as 1) How does he read? 2) Does he play pretty well in tune? 3) Can he play a decent phrase? After honestly answering his questions, he tells me that they have quite a large trombone studio already, and that even though he would like to hear this young man play, he feels quite certain that after hearing this round of auditions, that there will most certainly be some rejections because there is simply not enough room for borderline students in their program. I spoke with another colleague of mine, and I got pretty much the same answer, but as a courtesy to me, that he would give this student a free lesson, and also give him some very definite guidelines on how to prepare for the audition, which will be in another month. However, this colleague definitely let me know that he is getting pressure from the dean of the school that he expects college freshmen to be playing at a certain level, and to be quite frank, this kid isn't ready. I spoke with another colleague, and they are hurting for trombone players, and like I've already said, ACT score is UP THERE, and there is also the possibility of him going to the large state university, and again, getting accepted into the school is not a problem. It's getting accepted into the music department that seems to be the rub. I'm not asking for any advice this time, but to let the high school population on this list know that getting fantastic grades simply isn't good enough. If you're not taking private lessons, and you feel pretty certain that you want to major in music, even music education, FIND SOMEONE AND START TAKING LESSONS, and the earlier, the better. Don't wait until you're a junior or senior in high school. This young man's high school band situation is unfortunate, because he's not getting any kind of help at all from his band director--he's a good student, and I'm doing everything that I can to help him, but there's only so much that I can do in the private studio, and he spends far more time in band than in my studio. My take on this whole thing? I think it's a good thing. Here in the state of Tennessee I have seen some absolutely deplorable band directors who flat out are in it for the paycheck, and believe me, I understand the problems with public education, but who is ultimately paying the price? Our kids. It's a well known fact that all disciplines of education are hurting for teachers, and we need good ones, and I personally feel that the better you can play, the better you can teach. That fact seems to have gone by the wayside, and if there are trombone professors out there in these colleges who are raising the bar for the students arriving into their studios, this to me looks like a good way of rectifying a less than favorable situation. I would very much like for the college trombone professors on this list to respond to this post, and if you have any other points to make, I'd like to save these for my own future reference. Paul D. Kemp Jr. Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:21:15 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "Trombone List (E-mail)" Subject: NEW SLIDE TUBES!!! Message-ID: <01C1C028.83751DC0.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Everyone, I just want to announce to the world what a fantastic job list member Eric Edwards did rebuilding my Bach bass trombone slide. It's got two new outer tubes and one new inner tube. (I was going to go tubeless, but I was afraid of what might happen at highway speeds.) I've had a chance to spend some time with it this morning and the slide is very FAST and SMOOTH. A bass trombone slide that's fast and smooth, who ever heard of such a thing? Eric has done several repair and custom jobs for me, all great work. Eric, you've out done yourself this time. If anyone is looking for a superb brass tech in the Dallas area, contact Eric. Here's his E: bonearzt@mindspring.com Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:48:07 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: A Rude Awakening Message-ID: <01C1C02C.43F66600.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While we're ranting... One of my students gave me a CD of a recent performance by the youth orchestra that he is playing in. There were some good moments. But more often...well, I'll skip the blunt criticism. My point here: practically everything (pitch, balance, ensemble) on the CD would have been improved enormously if the brass players would have stressed making a great tone above, far above, any other aspect of their playing. Tone, Tone, Tone. A quality sound seems to go hand in hand with good time, pitch, blend, you name it. Maybe it's because the player is in the right kind of listening mode, when concentrating on the sound, that makes obvious the necessary adjustments for everything else. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Paul D. Kemp, Jr. [SMTP:paul@trbnplyr.com] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:15 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: A Rude Awakening Dear List, I would like to relate an incident that has recently happened to one of my students, and all of the parties involved shall remain nameless. I have a student who is a high school senior and who scholastically is EXCELLENT--a score of 31 on the ACT, which pretty much guarantees him admittance into any college of his choice, with a promise of scholarship money, and he's carrying a strong 4.0 GPA. However, he happens to be a part of a high school band program that, quite frankly, is not very good. After hearing me play in church one Sunday morning, his parents see that their son needs private instruction, and I gladly take him on, but he's a junior, and he has come to me several days late and several dollars short. This student of mine would really like to go into music education, and I want to do everything that I can to help, naturally. He has auditioned for one school, and while the committee sees that his ACT test score is excellent, they are not very impressed with his audition. He is going to another school on Friday, and after talking with the trombone professor at this school, he asks me very pointed questions such as 1) How does he read? 2) Does he play pretty well in tune? 3) Can he play a decent phrase? After honestly answering his questions, he tells me that they have quite a large trombone studio already, and that even though he would like to hear this young man play, he feels quite certain that after hearing this round of auditions, that there will most certainly be some rejections because there is simply not enough room for borderline students in their program. I spoke with another colleague of mine, and I got pretty much the same answer, but as a courtesy to me, that he would give this student a free lesson, and also give him some very definite guidelines on how to prepare for the audition, which will be in another month. However, this colleague definitely let me know that he is getting pressure from the dean of the school that he expects college freshmen to be playing at a certain level, and to be quite frank, this kid isn't ready. I spoke with another colleague, and they are hurting for trombone players, and like I've already said, ACT score is UP THERE, and there is also the possibility of him going to the large state university, and again, getting accepted into the school is not a problem. It's getting accepted into the music department that seems to be the rub. I'm not asking for any advice this time, but to let the high school population on this list know that getting fantastic grades simply isn't good enough. If you're not taking private lessons, and you feel pretty certain that you want to major in music, even music education, FIND SOMEONE AND START TAKING LESSONS, and the earlier, the better. Don't wait until you're a junior or senior in high school. This young man's high school band situation is unfortunate, because he's not getting any kind of help at all from his band director--he's a good student, and I'm doing everything that I can to help him, but there's only so much that I can do in the private studio, and he spends far more time in band than in my studio. My take on this whole thing? I think it's a good thing. Here in the state of Tennessee I have seen some absolutely deplorable band directors who flat out are in it for the paycheck, and believe me, I understand the problems with public education, but who is ultimately paying the price? Our kids. It's a well known fact that all disciplines of education are hurting for teachers, and we need good ones, and I personally feel that the better you can play, the better you can teach. That fact seems to have gone by the wayside, and if there are trombone professors out there in these colleges who are raising the bar for the students arriving into their studios, this to me looks like a good way of rectifying a less than favorable situation. I would very much like for the college trombone professors on this list to respond to this post, and if you have any other points to make, I'd like to save these for my own future reference. Paul D. Kemp Jr. Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:53:22 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'8guion@jmls.edu'" <8guion@jmls.edu>, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Composers & Performers knowing their craft. Message-ID: <587F49FABBEDD411A68F00A0C9EA313B5FD0F6@dasmthkhn561.amedd.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1C067.AAAB92E0" I believe it was Samuel Barber who was writing his 1st violin concerto for a specific virtuoso, I'm not sure whom. Anyway, the virtuoso after reviewing the first two movements, criticized the work as too easy and beneath him. Barber then wrote the 3rd movement to raise the bar and produced a spectacular movement, but the virtuoso pronounced this movement as "unplayable". Barber had to find another violinist to premiere his work, which did happened and this work is still around. It would seem that the give-n-take between composer and performer sometime is based in ego as much as ability. My copy is by Isaac Stern and is a remarkable recording. The second movement brings tears it is so beautiful. Rick Marple San Antonio TX -----Original Message----- From: Guion, David [mailto:8guion@jmls.edu] Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 9:45 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Composers & Performers knowing their craft. Quoth Aaron Roth > I > wish to disagree with the pointlessness of writing extremely difficult > music. Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto was reputedly unplayable for a while > > until a virtuoso with sufficient skill and dedication set to work on it.Ê > Tchaikovsky ran into trouble with both the Violin Concerto and Piano Concerto when the people he wrote them for pronounced them unplayable. As it turns out, however, in both cases the performers gave the works hardly more than a casual glance before rejecting it. In the case of the piano concerto, Tchaikovsky was attempting to play both the solo part and some of the accompaniment. I'm not sure that the designated performer ever tried it himself. In both cases, Tchaikovsky was quickly able to find someone else to play the concertos, and they were successful from the start. If he had not been able to find people in his lifetime who were willing to champion these works, they would probably remain unplayed to this day. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:38:09 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: A Rude Awakening Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2/28/02 9:14 AM, Paul D. Kemp, Jr. expounded thusly... > > I'm not asking for any advice this time, but to let the high school > population on this list know that getting fantastic grades simply isn't good > enough. If you're not taking private lessons, and you feel pretty certain > that you want to major in music, even music education, FIND SOMEONE AND > START TAKING LESSONS, and the earlier, the better. Don't wait until you're a > junior or senior in high school. This young man's high school band situation > is unfortunate, because he's not getting any kind of help at all from his > band director--he's a good student, and I'm doing everything that I can to > help him, but there's only so much that I can do in the private studio, and > he spends far more time in band than in my studio. > > My take on this whole thing? I think it's a good thing. Here in the state of > Tennessee I have seen some absolutely deplorable band directors who flat out > are in it for the paycheck, and believe me, I understand the problems with > public education, but who is ultimately paying the price? Our kids. It's a > well known fact that all disciplines of education are hurting for teachers, > and we need good ones, and I personally feel that the better you can play, > the better you can teach. That fact seems to have gone by the wayside, and > if there are trombone professors out there in these colleges who are raising > the bar for the students arriving into their studios, this to me looks like > a good way of rectifying a less than favorable situation. > Paul- You've touched a nerve, and it's one that I see a lot. I seem to get calls for lessons from new students when audition time rolls around (both college and all-state time). Many of these students/parents think that if they just get a couple of lessons, Mr. Barrett will be able to wave his magic wand, and the audition is in the bag. (Maybe so, if they have ME play the audition for them...) I think that a big part of it is that the student/parent/band teacher cabal treats playing an instrument solely as a mental/academic pursuit, able to be mastered in a couple of cramming sessions. They don't realize that playing a musical instrument well requires a committment to putting in the physical training along the same lines as becoming a competitive athlete. Figure skater Sarah Hughes is, what, 16 years old? She didn't start training seriously 2 years ago, I'm sure! Probably when she was 5-6 years old she got started with fundamentals from a good coach, who brought her up slowly to a world-class level, fueled by daily practice sessions. Nobody questions the amount of physical and mental effort it takes to play sports at college competitive levels, or above. Until students and parents realize/are educated that playing music is not like a math problem- you can't show up and have a tutor show you which formula to use, and that's it- we'll continue to get calls in March for help with all-state solos coming up in April or May. I have a euph student (HS Senior) now who started with me in December to get ready for college auditions! Honestly, she stinks, and she wants to do Music Ed, and has mostly been going to auditions for small schools not really known for their music dep'ts. She still makes some of the same errors on her solos that she did in December, but at least her sound and rhythmic sense are improving, hopefully through my good example. She has potential, but she should've been taking lessons AND working on the horn from at least 9th grade. Instead, she got band directors who were so ecstatic to even have a euph in the band that whatever she did was touted as being "fantastic." I hope she doesn't get too disappointed out in the real world. -- Walter Barrett "ThereÕs more bad music in jazz than any other form. Maybe thatÕs because the audience doesnÕt really know whatÕs happening." -Pat Metheny Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:35:27 -0600 From: "Richard B. Human, Jr." To: Trombone List Subject: Electronic Instruments Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings, Pursuant to the recent conversation about the evolution of instruments, here is a NY Times article about the MutanTrupmet that was discussed. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/28/technology/circuits/28NOTE.html?ex=1015908 178&ei=1&en=8807530509ad3635 (Free registration required to view the article) RH -- Dr. Richard Human Jr. richard@trombone.org Assistant Professor of Music Trombone and Music Theory Mississippi State University Office: (662) 325-2871 Founder, Webmaster and Publisher trombone.org: A web site for trombonists. http://www.trombone.org/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:52:50 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: A Rude Awakening Message-ID: <01C1C035.4E59EB40.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter, You are SO right. You've got me shaking my head. When these kids/parents show up and you try, in as constructive a way as possible, to explain that there is a lot of time and energy that needs to be spent just to make up for lost ground (let alone getting things up to standard), they react as if you are some kind of scrooge with a bad attitude. It's ridiculous. They have no clue. Don't let them become teachers. PLEASE!! Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Walter Barrett [SMTP:wbarrett@bestweb.net] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:38 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: A Rude Awakening On 2/28/02 9:14 AM, Paul D. Kemp, Jr. expounded thusly... > > I'm not asking for any advice this time, but to let the high school > population on this list know that getting fantastic grades simply isn't good > enough. If you're not taking private lessons, and you feel pretty certain > that you want to major in music, even music education, FIND SOMEONE AND > START TAKING LESSONS, and the earlier, the better. Don't wait until you're a > junior or senior in high school. This young man's high school band situation > is unfortunate, because he's not getting any kind of help at all from his > band director--he's a good student, and I'm doing everything that I can to > help him, but there's only so much that I can do in the private studio, and > he spends far more time in band than in my studio. > > My take on this whole thing? I think it's a good thing. Here in the state of > Tennessee I have seen some absolutely deplorable band directors who flat out > are in it for the paycheck, and believe me, I understand the problems with > public education, but who is ultimately paying the price? Our kids. It's a > well known fact that all disciplines of education are hurting for teac hers, > and we need good ones, and I personally feel that the better you can play, > the better you can teach. That fact seems to have gone by the wayside, and > if there are trombone professors out there in these colleges who are raising > the bar for the students arriving into their studios, this to me looks like > a good way of rectifying a less than favorable situation. > Paul- You've touched a nerve, and it's one that I see a lot. I seem to get calls for lessons from new students when audition time rolls around (both college and all-state time). Many of these students/parents think that if they just get a couple of lessons, Mr. Barrett will be able to wave his magic wand, and the audition is in the bag. (Maybe so, if they have ME play the audition for them...) I think that a big part of it is that the student/parent/band teacher cabal treats playing an instrument solely as a mental/academic pursuit, able to be mastered in a couple of cramming sessions. They don't realize that playing a musical instrument well requires a committment to putting in the physical training along the same lines as becoming a competitive athlete. Figure skater Sarah Hughes is, what, 16 years old? She didn't start training seriously 2 years ago, I'm sure! Probably when she was 5-6 years old she got started with fundamentals from a good coach, who brought her up slowly to a world-class level, fueled by daily practice sessions. Nobody questions the amount of physical and mental effort it takes to play sports at college competitive levels, or above. Until students and parents realize/are educated that playing music is not like a math problem- you can't show up and have a tutor show you which formula to use, and that's it- we'll continue to get calls in March for help with all-state solos coming up in April or May. I have a euph student (HS Senior) now who started with me in December to get ready for college auditions! Honestly, she stinks, and she wants to do M usic Ed, and has mostly been going to auditions for small schools not really known for their music dep'ts. She still makes some of the same errors on her solos that she did in December, but at least her sound and rhythmic sense are improving, hopefully through my good example. She has potential, but she should've been taking lessons AND working on the horn from at least 9th grade. Instead, she got band directors who were so ecstatic to even have a euph in the band that whatever she did was touted as being "fantastic." I hope she doesn't get too disappointed out in the real world. -- Walter Barrett "There?s more bad music in jazz than any other form. Maybe that?s because the audience doesn?t really know what?s happening." -Pat Metheny Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:22:45 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: A Rude Awakening Message-ID: <200202281123_MC3-F3D2-6336@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Something doesn't compute here. The kids mentioned in a lot of these posts are going for _Music Education_? And they aren't taking lessons? I can certainly understand a student going for a generic Education degree not having music lessons, but part of the normal training for musicians is private lessons with a good teacher. It's as much a part of the background as doing stretching exercises before athletics! And if all you want is to use Band as a way to let off steam while you study Computer Engineering, no or limited lessons are OK. I agree with the college professors who reject students who are underprepared. If you get a C in English, that is usually a clue you shouldn't teach English. If you can't play competently, you shouldn't teach. The students almost remind me of some kids my wife taught in a Vocational High School in New York. These kids were in Voc HS because they didn't have the aptitude to go for an academic diploma. The kids in this case were studying Practical Nursing (now they call it Nursing Assistants). One kid who was having troubles with some math class or so complained that "Nursing was too hard, maybe she'd become a Doctor". Another kid without a clue. One thing we don't need is more incompetent teachers. Our kids have a hard enough time with good teachers. *end of rant* Bruce Guttman Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:48:53 -0600 From: "Hugh Lee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: On the decline in popularity of the 88H Message-ID: <3C7E0B13.24782.521AA8@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am glad that someone brought up this topic. When I was looking for my first professional horn in the mid-80's, many of the professionals that I talked to said that they felt that the 88H was the premier instrument "if you could find a good one." My teacher found me a "good one" and I have used it for all but jazz playing since about 1983 (primarily with a Giardinelli Symphony B mouthpiece). I can only assume that players of my generation and later have been exposed primarily to the lousy post-1970 88Hs because I have only rarely run across another player playing one. In the last ten years, I have begun to think that maybe I was missing the boat and really was out of touch with modern thinking about the instrument. As a result, I have tried many horns over the years - tried the first Benge horns that had the open wrap, tried a variety of Bach instruments, tried the Canadian Brass horn when it was briefly popular, tried several lesser known horns and, most recently, tried an Edwards. Although I am sure that I am crossing over into an area of personal taste and great controversy here, I have never found another horn with the same richness of sound, consistency of pitch throughout the registers, and clear focus and responsiveness. I do wish Conn had spent more time producing a better slide. In particular, I found the Edwards, which seems to be very popular in the south, to produce a big, solid, if somewhat indistinct and unremarkable sound. Although this may reflect my limitations as a player, I have to admit that I can't figure out what all the excitement is about. In fact, the only horn in recent years that has tempted me at all has been the Christian Lindberg edition of the Conn, which I heard him play a year ago and which I have tried recently. But I can't really identify any particular advantage that it has over my horn (with the exception of a superior valve). I'm sorry to write such a lengthy note but this is a topic of great interest to me. If there is such a thing as a consensus on this topic, I would be interested in knowing what the consensus is about the most popular tenor horn being played by professionals these days. Thanks a lot and thank you for the many entertaining and informative posts to the list. Hugh Lee Tuscaloosa, Alabama ______________________________________________________ Hugh M. Lee Managing Attorney, Alabama Lawyers Research Service Director, Student Legal Clinic University of Alabama School of Law Post Office Box 870383 Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0383 (205) 348-0300 (phone) (205) 348-1112 (fax) hlee@law.ua.edu Nothing in this e-mail message should be construed as legal advice. This email is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Any review or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient or any retransmission without the consent of the sender is prohibited. The views or opinions expressed by the sender of this email are not necessarily those of the institution. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:57:32 -0800 From: Andrew Michael To: paul@trbnplyr.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: A Rude Awakening Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could this student take a year off to concentrate on practice and then reapply to colleges? How would schools view that? Andy ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:53:24 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: A Rude Awakening Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Paul, For what itâs worth, it took me 8 years of college to get my degree in electrical engineering. First, I almost finished my degree in mechanical engineering. Then I dropped out to play music. And finally got interested in electronics, transferred a bunch of units and, in a couple of years, got my BSEE. My point is that unless you take on responsibilities, like children, thereâs nothing that says that you need to start out at a fine music school. Yes, itâs tough when all your friends from high school are graduating, and youâve got years to go, but thatâs just an indication that youâre in need of a vacation. Lots of people that I studied music with, at junior college, went on the Berkeley (both Berkeley-Boston and UC Berkeley), and the like. Even if your student needs to retake harmony, itâs bound to be easier, the second time around. And, I had an amazing musical experience at junior college. I got to be the guitarist in a jazz big band, whereas Iâd never have had that experience if the competition was stiffer. I also got to take a classical guitar master class, with Jose Rey de la Torres, which I wouldnât have qualified for, at a more highly rated school. So Iâd say that this is a GOOD rude awakening, for this student. Getting through college in four years doesnât compare with the experience of going more slowly and having fun, in the process. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2314--