TROMBONE-L Digest 2306 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Kai Winding by "Dan Traugh" 2) ...and another review by Gabriel Langfur 3) RE: Enough of the Improv ? by Gabriel Langfur 4) King SilverSonic Symphony on eBay by Gary Sloane 5) RE: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics (ignore that last message by me) by "Jon Moeller" 6) RE: Bill Watrous by "Stephen Jones" 7) Re: Need Some BassBone Modification Help by Gabriel Langfur 8) RE: Bill Watrous by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 9) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 10) RE: Jazz "arteries" by Craig Parmerlee 11) Re: Recordings (was Re: Atonality) by "Steve Beck" 12) RE: Bill Watrous by "Gary Maxwell" 13) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 14) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by william david proctor 15) Thanks by "Bill Dinwiddie" 16) RE: Bill Watrous by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 17) RE: Bill Watrous by "Daniel Pliskin" 18) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by Gabriel Langfur 19) RE: Jeff Reynolds Mouthpiece info by jimandcat@juno.com 20) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Daniel Pliskin" 21) Re: Bill Watrous by "Dean McCarty" 22) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by sabutin 23) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by Craig Parmerlee 24) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by sabutin 25) Re: Bill Watrous by "Adrian Drover" 26) QUARTET AT TMEA by "Jeffrey Diehl" 27) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 28) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 29) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by Keith Davis 30) Re: Bill Watrous by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 31) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 32) RE: Bill Watrous by "Wessner, John" 33) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by ALFORDMB@aol.com 34) RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 35) Re: Bill Watrous by "Adrian Drover" 36) Re: QUARTET AT TMEA by Wayne Dyess 37) Dissention in the ranks by "Thomas Smee" 38) Re: Dissention in the ranks by "Shaun Hillen" 39) CSO education cutbacks by Steve Gamble 40) RE: Dissention in the ranks by "Thomas Smee" 41) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Daniel Pliskin" 42) RE: Dissention in the ranks by Steve Gamble 43) RE: Dissention in the ranks by "Jeff Albert" 44) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by Gabriel Langfur ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:13:49 -0500 From: "Dan Traugh" To: egtbone@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Kai Winding Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >when Kai >recorded The Kai Trombones he used Tony Studd, Pete Vivona,Billy Byers or >Bill Watrous. "More" is also featured on More Brass Kai Winding - Verve >V6-8657 I saw his 4 trombone group at Marietta college in Ohio about the time the "More" album came out and I got their autographs. If memory serves (I will have to dig them out to verify) I believe on of the autographs is Carl Fontana? ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:32:22 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: ...and another review Message-ID: <20020219183222.82491.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bolter's trombone concerto a natural By Richard Dyer, Globe Staff, 2/18/2002 BSO trombonist Norman Bolter has composed most of his life. Yesterday he was soloist in the premiere of his own trombone concerto ''IOURS'' with the Pro Arte Chamber Orchestra under Isaiah Jackson. The piece is in three movements devoted to the moon, the earth, and the sun, respectively, and the music reflects Bolter's personal relationship to nature, ecology, and myth. It also reflects his relationship to the trombone, for it is both imaginatively and idiomatically written for the instrument, with magical muted effects (the stand holding the mutes even looked like a magician's table). The first movement is a sound-tapestry; the second is both tender and jazzy; the third is full of striding fanfares of praise - we recalled how often Bolter has played for John Williams. The piece is stronger in idea than in construction. There's a lot of stop-and-go, as if it were following some extramusical scenario, like an unseen movie, rather than developing a purely musical logic. But the ideas are interesting, and Bolter plays a mean trombone. A kindly one too. Jackson and the orchestra entered into the proceedings with enthusiasm. The program opened and closed with brisk, observant, and delightful performances of Haydn's Symphony No. 6, ''Le Matin'' (in its nature-painting an interesting partner for the Bolter), and Schubert's Symphony No. 5, which was featured on the Pro Arte's debut concert 23 years ago. The Haydn featured spirited solo playing by winds, cello (William Rounds), bass, and especially violin (concertmaster Barbara Englesberg). Looking around at the large and contented crowd, much of which wouldn't have access to concerts without the Pro Arte's outreach efforts, one thought gratefully of how many good deeds the orchestra has brought to this naughty world over the years. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:01:24 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <20020219190124.7786.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > The point I am trying to make is that performance-centric > music will never > produce classic works, which was the problem this whole > thread began > with. It is composition, not performance, that enables > music to survive > the test of time. > I don't know about that Craig - the European music of the symphony concert hall for the most part wasn't written or first performed in an era of recording technology. Some of the greatest (I wish I knew what I really meant by that word) jazz recordings do not include really great compositions, in the sense of complete before the improvisation, harmonically complex, moving in and of themselves...I'm thinking specifically of "Kind of Blue" - and I would include "In a Silent Way", "Bitches Brew", Coltrane's "A Love Supreme", and maybe "Ellington at Newport" as well - I'm sure there are a number of others I don't know or can't think of right now. Here's one - Bill Evans' "Waltz for Debby" For those albums, the performance itself, captured on that particular day, is the thing that is able to stand the test of time, because of the recording technology. The recording itself is the creation and the work of art. It's almost a different thing entirely from an orchestral composition, or for that matter a composition by Ellington or Strayhorn or Brookmeyer or Maria Schneider... Social theorists can write reams of papers and theses about the modernist ethos and the post-modernist ethos... There's the story about Sonny Rollins not being able to play for a while after reading Gunther Schuller's analysis of his solo on Blue Seven (am I remembering the name of the tune right?). I think that's because Schuller's analysis was written from the firmly modernist, formalist worldview - the solo is great because it follows a pattern of theme & variations, etc. etc. etc. on a par with the greatest works of Mozart & Beethoven blah blah blah. In my view Schuller missed the point entirely - not because Rollins' solo shouldn't have been analyzed in those terms, but because that was only a small part of the picture - in some sense jazz performance embraces the post-modern world much more than classical performance, because of the temporal aspect of it...you do it now, and it's gone. Next time you do it it won't sound the same, not just because of the chance occurrences of individual performance, but because the actual notes will be different. It's not black & white of course - different pieces of music and different performances exist all over the spectrum of determined/aleatoric... I'm going to stop before I get any deeper into trouble with this line of thinking. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:19:45 -0800 From: Gary Sloane To: "Trombone-L Mailing List" Subject: King SilverSonic Symphony on eBay Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I've got four horns up for auction on eBay at the moment, the most interesting of which is the King Symphony. * very fast .536/.547 dual-bore slide * 9" sterling silver bell with wide throat * etc. It's all described on: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1515915402 This horn is amazing: it works equally well in symphonies and big bands...but I'm wondering: if I play Bill Harris's 1946 solo on Bijou note for note as part of my warm-up routine, it is jazz? -- Gary Sloane "Are you in denial?" sloane@batnet.com "The Nile? I'm not even in Africa." ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:23:46 -0600 From: "Jon Moeller" To: "'Trombone List'" Subject: RE: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics (ignore that last message by me) Message-ID: <000a01c1b97a$f5f976c0$9401a8c0@Jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just realized what I wrote this morning, I think im staying up too late... but I didn't mean that jazz was all about 3 chords and a swing beat, I meant that improv is one of the "arteries" so-to-speak of jazz, not that it is all improv, and everything else is meaningless -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Adrian Drover Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 5:16 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics From: "Jon Moeller" > If you take the lyrics out of rap then all you are left with is a 2 > maybe 3 chord progression, and some funky percussion stuff. > > Same goes for jazz and improv 2-3 chord impro? I think jazz has developed a bit further than that over the last century. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:29:21 -0500 From: "Stephen Jones" To: , Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <004d01c1b97b$beb31d50$f0585582@library.lib.umbc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01C1B951.D5DD1550" Funny, I seem to remember there being a fairly famous book with a story about a person referred to as the prodigal son. Another counterproductive example? Stephen Jones -----Original Message----- From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL [mailto:richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:32 AM To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Then in the long run he is a counterproductive example. I would suggest not even publicizing it except I am opposed to censorship in any form.Ê The reason I say that, is that he to a small extent is part of a theme that most of us who have worked in drug rehabilitation have seen over and over: The talented person who ends up in trouble with drugs, is nearly ruined, but kicks them and gets his life together. This is great, and I am happy for them, the trouble is it sets a bad example.Ê That's because the message kids hear when they see any successful person who just kicked drugs talk is not, "don't do drugs." It is, "I got off drugs and you can too." Unfortunately for most people that is a lie, a lie that encourages them to experiment. When I say most, I mean in excess of 90%. People actually able to quit using drugs after becoming addicted are less than 10%. For some drugs in some studies, more like 2%. That is despite the efforts of the best treatment programs. It may be that most people can lose weight, most people can control their diabetes, most people can get their blood pressure down, their cholesterol, etc. However what is hardly ever said out loud, but is known by anybody in the drug rehab industry, is that most people CANNOT get off drugs. Period. Most people cannot quit smoking, by the way.Ê I'm glad Bill was one of the lucky few, and I'm sure it didn't come easy. For most it's not going to come at all.Ê Ê -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Yeo [mailto:yeo@yeodoug.com] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:20 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Joe. L. Norcross wrote: >Just got back from the California Band Directors Association Annual >Conference. The Special guest for a clinic and concert was Bill Watrous. >What a player, but also a fine gentleman. Had a great conversation with >him about music, not just jazz. Ask him about Elgar's 3rd. Symphony. >He is a great fan of all types and plays and listens to a lot ofclassical >music. A real gentleman Then Dan Maslowski wrote: >I find this particularly interesting. I really like Bill Watrous' stuff >and have been told the opposite in the past. I've always been told he's >not a good "example" to set after since because of past drug >instances...it seems that people don't know what they are talking about >so it's nice to see that his music (which I absolutely LOVE) reflects >his persona. Indeed. Bill had many hard living years, but they seem to be long behind him. I've seen Bill a number of times, have corresponded with him quite a bit and have been impressed, as was Joe Norcross, at what an interesting and interested person he is. A true lover of classical music, and quite well read on composers, composition, etc. I recall a correspondence we had a year ago in which he waxed in detail, eloquently and movingly about Handel's "Messiah." At a clinic I attended a couple of years ago, he played the Barber "Adagio for Strings" on his trombone using multiphonics. I thought I was listening to an orchestra, it was the most accomplished multiphonic presentation I had ever heard. I've seen him be nothing but a gracious gentleman when working with students in clinics, and I count some of my contacts with him to have been quite enlightening to me personally and be moments which I treasure. It's nice to know that some people who do go through hard times sometimes have defining moments and encounters which cause them to re-evaluate their life and resolve to follow a different path. So is the case with Bill Watrous. We're all the richer for it - he is a fine role model and gentleman. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Need Some BassBone Modification Help Message-ID: <20020219194227.13133.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's possible that the rest bars, like the Get-A-Grip or the Greenhoe rest bar, won't make enough of a difference for you. If that's the case, there is something else you can do. There are two modifications designed by a guy named Haynor. One puts the entire weight of the instrument in the palm of your hand (I think this is called the Full Haynor), the other puts it in the crook of your thumb (the Half Haynor). The best thing to do is to go to a repairperson who has done them before - the only one I know of is Chuck McAlexander in NY, maybe some Chicago-area listers know Haynor or someone there who worked with him - and have the conversion done to fit your hand. Incidentally, I know a student here in Boston who has one of these. He studied with B.B. McCullough just before he died, and B.B. gave him his horn! B.B. was very small - under five feet - and he had a Full Haynor done on a Conn 60 or 62H, along with the addition of a second valve. I also have a friend who did a Half Haynor on an Edwards, but I'm not sure if he still has the horn. If you think your repair guy can do it based on some photos, I can probably help arrange that - email me off the list... Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:30:38 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: stjones@umbc.edu, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F882@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B984.4B0AB8A0" It would appear you disagree with something I said. That's fine, I'm frequently wrong. Or, you might be. If you were a little more explicit perhaps we could tell. I'll make it simple. I said two things (beyond saying that I admire Bill's playing enormously. But that goes without saying. In fact, I didn't! ). 1. It is rare to successfully kick drugs. 2. Having very talented, admired, and rich celebrities explain how they kicked drugs so easily does not cause kids to avoid drugs, it causes them to think they can use drugs with impunity. This leads them to eventually discover Item 1.Ê I'm not sure which statement offended you. IÊAM sure both are supported by ample amounts of good data, and actually common sense as well. If you think that means I am diminishing in some way theÊefforts of those few who did succeed, then you simply read wrong. I'm happy for them - welcome back. If you want a REALLY counterproductive sounding parable, it'd be hard to beat the "single denarius." But I really don't think either parable has much application to the problem of how to keep kids off drugs in the first place.Ê I know drugs are only borderline trombone related - it would be impossible to talk about jazz honestly without mentioning them, though. Maybe they have something to do with the creativity of some of our great (and dead) jazz innovators; for sure they have something to do with the shortness of their careers.Ê I hope this explains where I'm coming from, no disrespect to Bill was intended.Ê -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Jones [mailto:stjones@umbc.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 2:29 PM To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL; trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Funny, I seem to remember there being a fairly famous book with a story about a person referred to as the prodigal son. Another counterproductive example? Stephen Jones -----Original Message----- From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL [mailto:richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL] Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:32 AM To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Then in the long run he is a counterproductive example. I would suggest not even publicizing it except I am opposed to censorship in any form.Ê The reason I say that, is that he to a small extent is part of a theme that most of us who have worked in drug rehabilitation have seen over and over: The talented person who ends up in trouble with drugs, is nearly ruined, but kicks them and gets his life together. This is great, and I am happy for them, the trouble is it sets a bad example.Ê That's because the message kids hear when they see any successful person who just kicked drugs talk is not, "don't do drugs." It is, "I got off drugs and you can too." Unfortunately for most people that is a lie, a lie that encourages them to experiment. When I say most, I mean in excess of 90%. People actually able to quit using drugs after becoming addicted are less than 10%. For some drugs in some studies, more like 2%. That is despite the efforts of the best treatment programs. It may be that most people can lose weight, most people can control their diabetes, most people can get their blood pressure down, their cholesterol, etc. However what is hardly ever said out loud, but is known by anybody in the drug rehab industry, is that most people CANNOT get off drugs. Period. Most people cannot quit smoking, by the way.Ê I'm glad Bill was one of the lucky few, and I'm sure it didn't come easy. For most it's not going to come at all.Ê Ê -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Yeo [mailto:yeo@yeodoug.com] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:20 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Joe. L. Norcross wrote: >Just got back from the California Band Directors Association Annual >Conference. The Special guest for a clinic and concert was Bill Watrous. >What a player, but also a fine gentleman. Had a great conversation with >him about music, not just jazz. Ask him about Elgar's 3rd. Symphony. >He is a great fan of all types and plays and listens to a lot ofclassical >music. A real gentleman Then Dan Maslowski wrote: >I find this particularly interesting. I really like Bill Watrous' stuff >and have been told the opposite in the past. I've always been told he's >not a good "example" to set after since because of past drug >instances...it seems that people don't know what they are talking about >so it's nice to see that his music (which I absolutely LOVE) reflects >his persona. Indeed. Bill had many hard living years, but they seem to be long behind him. I've seen Bill a number of times, have corresponded with him quite a bit and have been impressed, as was Joe Norcross, at what an interesting and interested person he is. A true lover of classical music, and quite well read on composers, composition, etc. I recall a correspondence we had a year ago in which he waxed in detail, eloquently and movingly about Handel's "Messiah." At a clinic I attended a couple of years ago, he played the Barber "Adagio for Strings" on his trombone using multiphonics. I thought I was listening to an orchestra, it was the most accomplished multiphonic presentation I had ever heard. I've seen him be nothing but a gracious gentleman when working with students in clinics, and I count some of my contacts with him to have been quite enlightening to me personally and be moments which I treasure. It's nice to know that some people who do go through hard times sometimes have defining moments and encounters which cause them to re-evaluate their life and resolve to follow a different path. So is the case with Bill Watrous. We're all the richer for it - he is a fine role model and gentleman. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:14:36 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <00c001c1b98a$6f899ec0$b6a99d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > --- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > > The point I am trying to make is that performance-centric > > music will never > > produce classic works, which was the problem this whole > > thread began > > with. It is composition, not performance, that enables > > music to survive > > the test of time. I don't know Craig whether composition rather than performance allows music to survive the test of time. The music should be performed with some semblance of competence for it to be properly appreciated. A high school orchestra performing a masterpiece is not going to sound the same as the BSO performing the same piece. Leaving parental pride aside, the piece is going to be appreciated as a masterpiece a lot more if played by the BSO. I appreciate your points regarding improvisation, however, good improvisational ability can make a great piece of music even better. Improvisation is an integral part of jazz. It brings to the listener's ear, more so than classical in my opinion, the artist's interpretation of the composer's piece. In classical music, the artist's interpretation of a piece of music is limited to the notes on the page. Jazz improv removes that limitation. In addition, sometimes the point of a jazz piece IS the improvisation! A piece may have a simple melody followed by improv. The melody may merely be a starting point for the improv. In this case, perhaps the composition, per se. may not be great, but the MUSIC performed through improv may be great. In other instances, Duke Ellington and Bob Brookmeyer come to mind, the jazz composition itself is great, with or without the improv. Sometimes, improv cannot be properly appreciated because the listener has not listened to the genre enough to properly understand what is going on. I've listened to Love Supreme by John Coltrane on one occasion. I don't comprehend it yet. I believe that it is a great piece. I just don't have the ears yet to appreciate it! Perhaps, one day I will, that day just ain't today. Richard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:36:11 -0400 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Jazz "arteries" Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020219172250.00b79af8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:23 PM 02/19/2002 -0600, Jon Moeller wrote: I just realized what I wrote this morning, I think im staying up too late... but I didn't mean that jazz was all about 3 chords and a swing beat, I meant that improv is one of the "arteries" so-to-speak of jazz, not that it is all improv, and everything else is meaningless Well put. That is a nice summary of what I have been trying to say. The other arteries, IMHO, are: - a whole universe of tonalities and ensemble voicings that are rarely used in other idioms - rhythms, polyrhythms out the wazoo - a cornucopia of articulations that go way beyond the "brick notes" that most classical compositions require and I'm sure there are other important "arteries" in jazz that I don't fully appreciate yet. I don't mean to dismiss improvisation and swing beat as unimportant parts of jazz, but I just think an over-reliance on those two arteries gives the music a very dated sound. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:25:55 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Recordings (was Re: Atonality) Message-ID: <00ea01c1b98c$0b910d20$95310923@cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - Original Message ----- From: "Bodie Pfost" > In jazz music, recordings raised the (harmonic) bar faster than it had been > raised in classical music Agreed. However, it's not just recording that has done this. In jazz, the players have a much more active role in the evolution of the music than in classical music. In a sense you have a bazillion composers working on the same piece. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:35:50 -0800 From: "Gary Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <659829993461CA49942D1312DE3436918309D3@edcenmail1.bcsd.k12.ca.us> Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B98D.665004C2" From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL >I know drugs are only borderline trombone related - ============================================================== Wull I donno about that. Most drugs are habit forming (addictive). Taking that at face value one could surmize(?), therefore, that the trombone is a drug. (;>0 Sorry, I do remember my mother telling me to, "Keep yer nose outta it, boy!" Just trying to LIGHTEN UP the list a bit. Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:45:48 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E7124A02@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dennis Clason wrote > > Time is the only effective filter, I think. That's why we have > > to wait a while before declaring something great -- it takes the > > test of time to make that determination. > > and Richard Johnson added > I disagree, Dennis. Some have expressed the opinion that time is one > of the determining factors of greatness. Some have stated that another > determining factor of musical greatness is the intringent nature of the > music to express emotions. Both, I submit, are subjective judgments that > would eliminate any of the music of the last 50-100 years from being > great. > Maybe it would be useful to abandon the notion of greatness, which is subjective, and think in terms of short-term and long-term success. Music that has no merit may have short term success but not long term success. Alas, music that has merit may miss out on success at all. Consider the following: In the 1820s, Beethoven was widely regarded as the world's greatest living composer (whatever that means). That's short term success. His music is still one of the pillars of the orchestral/chamber music/solo piano repertoires. His choral music and opera are still performed regularly 170+ years after his death. That's long term success. In the 1840s, Louis Spohr was widely regarded as the world's greatest living composer (whatever that means). That's short term success. Grass had barely started to grow on his grave before his music dropped out of sight. Back to the 1820s: any composer who had any hope of an international reputation had to work in Vienna, Paris, London, or a couple of Italian cities. Otherwise, his music would be heard only locally. There was a composer in Stockholm named Eggert who was too sickly to travel. Scholars have said his stuff is as good as Beethoven's, but no one ever plays it. Now to the 20th century. We can all name plenty of musicians working in all styles who are immensely successful. We cannot predict which ones of them will still be of interest to anyone after all of us are dead. Was Beethoven's music truly great when it was written? Or only after people kept playing it after everyone for whom it was new music was dead? Dumb question. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring was composed in 1912. Everyone, I'm sure, who had an opinion about it at the time is dead. People still perform it and listen to it. Long term success. Louis Armstrong began his recording career in the 1920s. Everyone who was an adult and most everyone who was a youth in the 1920s is dead. People still listen to and admire Louis Armstrong's early recordings. Long term success. Jazz groups still improvise on some of the same tunes Armstrong did. Other tunes that he used have fallen by the wayside. We like his playing, but we don't like the tunes well enough to keep playing them ourselves. Not long term success. We are told that Paganini and Liszt were great performers. We have to take someone else's word for it. They didn't make any records. Now, however, we can judge performers through their recordings the same way we can judge composers through their written compositions. For living performers or composers, we know which ones are successful now. We have opinions as to which ones deserve long term success. By definition, we will not be around long enough to find out if we were right. Let's enjoy what we like and quit bickering over what qualifies as great. After all, there is not universal agreement about what is great even regarding things that clearly have long-term success. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:30:37 -0700 From: william david proctor To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <516756014.1014129037@dhcp-120-0424.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Seems to me that a big part of the problem is that too amny people have become to reliant on what the recording "says" about playing a piece. I have often heard "jazz players" (NOT intended to represent experts in the field, but instead naive college students) say they don't like "classical" music because it gives no room for self-expression. Says who? LOTS of great musicians find ways to express themselves in all types of music. Too many people have got it in their heads that there is only ONE way for a piece to go. This very list has had discussions: "Jazz players MUST use a small-bore tenor..."; "this is how Schubert would have wanted it..."; and so on. Too many musicians are so afraid of being "wrong" that rather than interpret, they regurgitate. Now, I'm all for "historical" performances of classic music, and I'm all for playing what's on the page. But maybe the reason why so many "normal" (????) listeners find jazz and classical boring is because too many performers are following the "formula" instead of playing something meaningful. I compare it to acting: no (well, very few, anyway) serious actor looks at Shakespeare and says, "I can't do that. It's old, overdone, and leaves no room for expression. Its familiarity limits my abilities to display my talent and grow as an artist." No, the great actors say, "how can I do this in a new way? Something true to the page, yet unique to myself and in some way complementing the great character that has already been laid before me?" I believe this is how musicians should approach ANY kind of music. "There it is. Someone else's brainchild. How can I put ME into THIS and create something new and alive?" Part of the reason why players like Joe Alessi, Bill Watrous, George Roberts, etc. get noticed is because NO ONE ELSE SOUNDS LIKE THEM. They can take great music and make it their own without destroying the meaning within the music. THAT is artistry, and when more "serious" jazz and classical musicians pursue it, then more of these people are likely to get someone's attention. Now if I could start figuring out how to put that into MY playing..... David Proctor bass trombone (jazz band, wind symphony, and orchestra) University of New Mexico ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:01:09 -0600 From: "Bill Dinwiddie" To: "List Trombone" Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <007b01c1b990$f05647a0$5a34f90c@attbi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Guion has said it all in his last E-Mail. Thanks, Dave. By the way you always end your E-Mails with the Latin phrase "Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur". Would you be so kind as to translate this for the infinitesimally small number of us who have forgotten what Latin we ever knew? Thanks, Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:43:55 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: maxwellg@bcsd.k12.ca.us, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F883@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B98E.87E2D910" Well, Gary, let's do the math and find out if trombone is a drug or not. Going down the checklist: 1. Frowned upon by your parents. Check.Ê 2. Causes you to neglect your studies. Check. 3. Habit forming. Check. 4. Not that reputable a career. Check. 5. Keeps you broke. Check. 6. Cause pain and suffering to others. Check. 7. Detrimental to your body. Check.Ê 8. Can get you into legal trouble. Check. 9. Causes fights and arguments. Check. 10. Makes you a babe magnet. Ooops.Ê Nope, trombone's not a drug.Ê That light enough for you, Gary?Ê -----Original Message----- From: Gary Maxwell [mailto:maxwellg@bcsd.k12.ca.us] Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 4:36 PM To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL; Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Bill Watrous From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL >I know drugs are only borderline trombone related - ============================================================== Wull I donno about that. Most drugs are habit forming (addictive). Taking that at face value one could surmize(?), therefore, that the trombone is a drug. (;>0 Sorry, I do remember my mother telling me to, "Keep yer nose outta it, boy!" Just trying to LIGHTEN UP the list a bit. Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:19:56 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 1. Frowned upon by your parents. Check. 2. Causes you to neglect your studies. Check. 3. Habit forming. Check. 4. Not that reputable a career. Check. 5. Keeps you broke. Check. 6. Cause pain and suffering to others. Check. 7. Detrimental to your body. Check. 8. Can get you into legal trouble. Check. 9. Causes fights and arguments. Check. 10. Makes you a babe magnet. Ooops. Nope, trombone's not a drug. WOW! Yu mean that if I play trombone in public, all the babes·all the babes will·you know. WOW! Somehow I think that if trombone is a babe magnet, itâs got the wrong polarity. There was this one gig, in the Î60s, when I had 4 women vying to be my groupie. And I went home to my girlfriend. I guess I was a nerd back then, too. But now Iâm proud to say that Iâm stoned and Iâm not coming down. Thatâs right, folks. Iâm stoned on life and thereâs no getting out of it alive. Oh! Gee, Iâm slow. Youâre talking about the pig Babe. Yeah, you might attract a pig with a trombone. But be careful. The pig just might want to eat the trombone. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:29:06 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <20020219222906.43314.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> wrote: > Let's enjoy what we like and quit bickering over what > qualifies as great. > After all, there is not universal agreement about what is > great even > regarding things that clearly have long-term success. Thank You! Well put. I think I'll enjoy my Dave Matthews CD in the car on the way home. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:35:26 -0800 From: jimandcat@juno.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Cc: jerrzo@netzero.net Subject: RE: Jeff Reynolds Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <20020219.143527.-518407.2.Jimandcat@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2/7/02 Jerry Blomberg jerrzo@netzero.net wrote: >When I began this thread a couple of days ago, >my initial question was: >How many of you are using the >Jeff Reynolds-L bass mouthpiece and what are >your thoughts about it? >The only one who said he was using it was Gabe. >Any others? This is how faar behind I am in reading my Digests. Just saw this today, and sorry it is 12 days old. I play on a Jeff Reynolds L. Here is my saga. As you know, the JR is based on a later version of the Minick L, which was roughly based on a Bach 1 1/4G. Actually Minick started with his V mouthpiece (a copy of a Mt. Vernon Bach 1 1/2G he had) and started making the L for people wanting something bigger (like a Schilke 60, but he didn't believe going bigger than about a Schilke 59). He let me field test about 10 of those and I bought one which I played for about 15 years (after playing the V for awhile). Jeff talked Larry into making the L with a wider, more rounded rim and a very slightly larger cup (Larry narrowed the throat a tad as well). I tried out about 7 of those and bought one. But it was too "dark" for most of the things I do, I dubbed it my "Mahler" mouthpiece and only used it with "really big blows". Both were excellent mpcs. The JR is designed to be close to the 2nd L version. It has an even wider rim and is not quite as rounded, I think the cup and throat are pretty much the same. When I heard Steve Ferguson was marketing a mouthpiece based on my former teacher's (and hero) Minick L, I ordered one. I didn't like it. Steve graciously sent me 2 or 3 more to try, and 2 were winners. The discrepancy was (as far as I can figure) how the backbore was drilled by Kanstul (who did the CVC work). Larry was fanatic about drilling backbores absolutely straight down, if you look at most commercial mouthpieces you will see one side (wall) is slightly thicker than the opposite, ain't straight. I am not nearly an expert on mpcs like some on this Forum, but sure enough the one I rejected was the crookedest of the bunch. To me it shows up as an unevenness of timbre between ranges--on this one, the high range had no brights, the middle was muddy, and the low was edgy bright, made it sound like 3 different horns, or 3 different players. Even the one I selected needs to be "clocked" (put in a certain way) to sound the best. Just before getting the JR I had a Yeo, which I liked a lot. It is drilled absolutely straight and has an even gorgeous sound top to bottom, "clocking" makes no difference. But it is a little too big for me and wears out my lungs and my lips after about 2 hours of steady playing. I will still use it, especially for big orchestral things, in fact I have my JR at Andersons now for goldplating, and I am happily playing my Yeo. At first I didn't like the wide rim of the JR, but after a few weeks I realized how comfortable it was and how much it helps endurance. I love the sound of all registers, popping pedals is as easy as it is with the Yeo but it doesn't wind me as much. The JR on my Bach is big and orchestral, on my Shires it is brighter, I think I might try a larger leadpipe to darken it a bit. I just did a few solos on a recital ("Andante et Allegro"--Barat, and my bass trombone arrangements of a Mahler theme and "Stardust") and the JR worked fantastic. In short, I love this mpc, but you might need to try more than one to find the right one. BTW, I told Steve about the backbore thing and he said he would give Kanstul hell. That was a year ago, maybe it has been taken care of. I recommend buying from Steve Ferguson http://members.aol.com/sftrombone/Main.htm . He is a solid gentleman (even though he does play the trombone ;^) ) and will make sure you are happy with what you get. Jim Prindle ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:53:10 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I was feeling so proud of myself, having stayed out of all those silly threads about which is better classical music or jazz. But Iâm listening to Kenny Kirkland and Iâm just really, really sad that he didnât improvise more before he died. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:09:11 -0600 From: "Dean McCarty" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <002f01c1b9ab$35f6d6c0$c90960cc@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >10. Makes you a babe magnet. Ooops. > > > >Nope, trombone's not a drug. Well... I have to say that I got my wife because I play trombone... bass trombone in particular. She loves it and... I might add REALLY likes it. But, maybe the fact that she is a trombonist herself tarnishes the checklist. I don't know... but I will say... I practice a lot more when she is around... : ) Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:08:58 -0500 From: sabutin To: JIM.D.HICKS@DFAS.MIL Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ---snip--- Craig; ---snip--- and 2/3 of those costs from its HUGH endowment for the drug industry (Lilly not Guido and his pals). Jim Hicks ================= You mean there's a difference? S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:23:14 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020219222038.01eb1668@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:08 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, sabutin wrote: ---snip--- Craig; ---snip--- and 2/3 of those costs from its HUGH endowment for the drug industry (Lilly not Guido and his pals). Jim Hicks ================= You mean there's a difference? S. You bet there's a huge difference. Lilly hires an arena full of tax lawyers to help them avoid paying taxes. Guido simply doesn't file a return. "Hey, you got a problem with that buddy?" No sir Mr. Guido sir. :) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:04:18 -0500 From: sabutin To: craig@acticalc.com Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 10:08 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, sabutin wrote: ---snip--- Craig; ---snip--- and 2/3 of those costs from its HUGH endowment for the drug industry (Lilly not Guido and his pals). Jim Hicks ================= You mean there's a difference? S. You bet there's a huge difference. Lilly hires an arena full of tax lawyers to help them avoid paying taxes. Guido simply doesn't file a return. "Hey, you got a problem with that buddy?" No sir Mr. Guido sir. :) ================= For anyone w/the curiosity to find out the way major drug companies really operate, may I suggest a great book by John LeCarre -"The Constant Gardener". Frightening. True, too. You'll never take a prescription from a doctor the same way after reading it, I promise. S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:59:09 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <00a101c1b9e4$b000d090$3899fc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Daniel Pliskin" > Yu mean that if I play trombone in public, all the babes.all the babes > will.you know. But of course, tho' the only babes that ever come to listen to a band that uses trombones usually have in excess of 70 years of wrinkles, droopy jugs and a zimmer frame, and worst of all, they always insist on another rendition of "Tuxedo Junction". A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:11:33 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Diehl" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: QUARTET AT TMEA Message-ID: <001d01c1b9f6$f99a0ac0$1d113044@gambrl01.md.comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List: My group, the U.S. Naval Academy Band Trombone Quartet, will be presenting a concert / clinic at the Texas Music Educators Association (TMEA) Conference in San Antonio, TX. Our presentation will be at 6:30 PM on Thursday. I certainly invite any list members who are attending the Conference to stop by and say hello! Jeff Diehl ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:37:19 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <029301c1ba0b$563f9a60$10af9d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 10:53 PM Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing > > I was feeling so proud of myself, having stayed out of all those silly > threads about which is better classical music or jazz. But I'm listening to > Kenny Kirkland and I'm just really, really sad that he didn't improvise more > before he died. > > DanP I don't see it as being a which is greater, classical or jazz argument. I felt that some were stating that jazz music could be great also and some were stating that it could not be so until it had passed some tests. I don't think that anyone said that jazz was greater than jazz altouhg I did hear the opposite view espoused. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:44:08 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <000a01c1ba0c$4a2e3280$10af9d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I meant to say that I don't think that anyone said that jazz was greater than ORCHESTRAL music! My bad! **************************************************************************** ** Richard Zemry Johnson, Jr. "The Untouchables" Jazz Ensemble Shreveport Metropolitan Concert Band ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, , "There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore." J. J. Johnson **************************************************************************** ***** I'm not satisfied with anything about my playing. I know what I want. I can hear it; but it will take time and study to get it" -Sonny Rollins (1956) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 6:37 AM Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Pliskin" > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 10:53 PM > Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing > > > > > > I was feeling so proud of myself, having stayed out of all those silly > > threads about which is better classical music or jazz. But I'm listening > to > > Kenny Kirkland and I'm just really, really sad that he didn't improvise > more > > before he died. > > > > DanP > > I don't see it as being a which is greater, classical or jazz argument. I > felt that some were stating that jazz music could be great also and some > were stating that it could not be so until it had passed some tests. I don't > think that anyone said that jazz was greater than jazz altouhg I did hear > the opposite view espoused. > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:57:13 -0500 From: Keith Davis To: Trombone List Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <3C73AB39.61ECFB2B@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig wrote: " These days, everybody has improv chops." I have to disagree. The problem is that everybody THINKS they have improv chops. Classical candenzas are written out because to improv a GOOD selection, jazz or otherwise, is difficult. I was talking to a guy I work with who plays guitar, and he was playing a recording of a guitar solo. He said, "Wow, that lick was cool" -- true, but the rest of the 45 second solo was filler. Keith ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:35:53 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: slide.rule@adios.co.uk, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <84.23a81737.29a50e49@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tuxedo Junction... they want Little Brown Jug as a closer too. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:48:05 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <001401c1ba1d$9b172dd0$035b4d0c@trbnplyr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Listers, This is a slightly different slant on the jazz orchestra, but I'll throw it into the mix and let's see what happens. First of all, let me say that even though I am primarily a symphony musician, I do not feel that my time playing in jazz ensembles has hurt my playing--in fact, if anything, it has helped me to become a more rounded musician. Orchestras usually have pops series, and time spent playing in jazz ensembles definitely help with interpreting the mass of literature out there. All music must "swing", and Mozart and Beethoven, in their own way swing just as hard as Basie if it is played properly. In fact, if Mozart or Beethoven do not have a strong rhythmic pulse, it is some of the most boring music to listen to imaginable. In the past Sam Burtis has said many good things about the importance of time, and this is imperative in ALL styles of music, not just jazz. No matter what kind of music you play, it must have some reference to TIME, and playing in jazz ensembles definitely helps with this. If you want to hear a great example of what I'm talking about, purchase the Reiner/Chicago Symphony of the New World Symphony that also has the Smetena Bartered Bride on it (it has been re-released on CD). Now if that's not a real swinging symphony orchestra, one simply doesn't exist. As far as the money thing is concerned, Sam again is correct. Employing 18 versus 70 is going to help the bottom line TREMENDOUSLY. I'll cite an example from the orchestra that I play in--Chattanooga. Every year we do a big band pops concert in the neighborhood of Valentine's Day. Every Year it is SOLD OUT, which is a lot more than what I can say for the symphony series and the opera series (even though I will admit that theopera series seems to be much better supported than symphony series). Next year, Valentines Day happens to fall on Friday, and the symphony management is considering 1) moving to the Trade Center, which has infinitely more room for dancing than the Tivoli Theatre in which we play, and 2) having a repeat performance on Saturday night. This pops concert MAKES MONEY---BIG TIME. People will come out to hear a big band play the big band music of the 30's and 40's when they won't support the symphony or the opera series, or even the other concerts in the pops series. And we don't play just the old stock arrangements either---we play a fair amount of Sammy Nestico arrangements of the old standards which are FANTASTIC. In fact, I talked to one of the employess at the post office who brought his wife to this big band pops thing, and he and his wife enjoyed it so much that he mentioned to the executive director of the orchestra that we need to do this more than once a year. In fact, I think we could do this 4 times a year and it would be a major hit EVERY TIME--provided that we kept the variety of music fresh. That end of it we definitely need to work on. In fact, I think that if Chattanooga would investigate the idea of expanding the pops series, or even having a pops orchestra like the Boston Pops, it would mean two things: 1) more work for the musicians, and 2) more ticket sales, and since all of are concerts are sponsored by some pretty major corporations, that means one thing: a stronger bottom line for the orchestra. I still like playing Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Wagner, and any other composer that wrote substantial parts for the trombone, but the bottom line to the orchestra, both in the eyes of the management and of the players, is MONEY. Tommy Dorsey almost singlehandedly revolutionized the trombone as a solo instrument with his beautiful, lyric style. In fact, the jazzers and freelancers have a lot more to playing the trombone MUSICALLY than the symphony players, in my opinion. I believe that all in all, if the symphony musicians would learn to be more at peace with the jazz musicians, and each side try to LEARN as much as they can about the other, we would all make more money, and we would be much better rounded as musicians. Warm Regards, Paul D. Kemp Jr. Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:53:13 -0500 From: "Wessner, John" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Message-ID: content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It beats In the Mood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jw -----Original Message----- From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com [mailto:BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 9:36 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Bill Watrous Tuxedo Junction... they want Little Brown Jug as a closer too. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:12:56 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <165.8b8d577.29a516f8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/20/2002 8:58:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, gonzotheduck@earthlink.net writes: > Craig wrote: " These days, everybody has improv chops." > > I have to disagree. The problem is that everybody THINKS they have > improv chops. ======================= EXACTLY! Very well put. Mike Alford ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:14:13 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'craig@acticalc.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <587F49FABBEDD411A68F00A0C9EA313B5FD0D8@dasmthkhn561.amedd.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1BA21.410EA350" I would like to add a word on the Michael Davis Bill Riechenbach duo. In San Antonio last year, they palyed with a sit-in rhythm section. I can't believe they rehearsed too much. But they sounded great, in fact I thought better than the CD performances! Point is, the duo has rehearsed well and knows the charts. Yet there was spontaneity between the musicians and the result was very satisifying. Variance? Yes, but stale? NO. It was a tribute to their ability. Rick Marple San Antonio TX ============== Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics ... Not all small jazz groups do this "just show up and play something" thing. I haven't heard Bonetown live, but those Michael Davis compositions are really smart and there is a lot of very intriguing duet playing with Davis and Reichenbach. That represents a serious investment of time and talent that, to me, is considerably more deserving of an audience. ... Just my opinion. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:32:01 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <007d01c1ba2c$4ec9f430$327968d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: > Tuxedo Junction... they want Little Brown Jug as a closer too. Don't you mean "Little Droopy Jugs"? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:31:13 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess To: diehl24@home.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: QUARTET AT TMEA Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 5:11 AM -0500 2/20/02, Jeffrey Diehl wrote: Dear List: My group, the U.S. Naval Academy Band Trombone Quartet, will be presenting a concert / clinic at the Texas Music Educators Association (TMEA) Conference in San Antonio, TX. Our presentation will be at 6:30 PM on Thursday. I certainly invite any list members who are attending the Conference to stop by and say hello! Jeff Diehl I heard Jeff's group at our Texas Bandmaster's Association convention last summer, and the group is well rehearsed and an inspiration. Not to be missed!!!!!! Congrats Jeff! --Wayne Dyess -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:51:16 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum. (E-mail)" Subject: Dissention in the ranks Message-ID: <454FC5BC266BDB4BBA26E5BBF2F73FEF11B7B0@torxchng1.dwpv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1BA2E.CFC90CEA" content-class: urn:content-classes:message Its seems that these days we can't avoid controversy no matter what the topic. Let me share this debate from Spray Bottle-L: Message from Becky: Hi, I am a grade 6 trombone player in the Hoot n'Holler Primary School Band. What kind of slide sprayer do you like? ================= Reply from Bob: I like the kind that has water in it and when you push it, water comes out and goes all over the silver part of your slide. ================ Reply from Snidely Slapdash: What do you mean, "the silver part of the slide"? Has it ever occurred to you that the outer slide might be silver too. You should be careful about misleading young students through poorly thought out answers whipped off and sent into the internet. ============== Reply from Rory Ragemonger: Its nickel silver, you moron. ============ Reply form Sally Sackbutt: When we performed the music of Darius Kasparitis, a little known 14th century composer of music for sackbutt and hockey stick, at the latest three-week all Kasparitis music fest in Lower Upper Schlongwanger this last summer, I insisted that all the sackbutt players refrain from using spray bottles on their slide, and instead expectorate copiously on the inner slide during every rest, as I'm sure was done during the 14c. Also, to get the ultimate in historical accuracy and the proper consistency to our 'expectorant', we ate nothing but rotten food for three weeks and brushed our teeth with poplar twigs imported from the north of Italy, as everyone knows was the practise of brass players of that era. =============== Reply from Ernie Engineer: I'm a trombonist trapped in an engineer's mind and have studied extensively the viscosity of spit in North American climates in a confined space between two moving pieces of metal. I can report that science shows and can clearly demonstrate that the degree of humidity in the room is a far greater factor than diet or tooth brushing technique in the viscosity of spit between two closely aligned metal structures, one moving and the other in a steady state. To prove the point, I executed the following experiment: I sat alone in a climate controlled tent in my basement with my trombone for three weeks, adjusting the ambient humidity upwards and downwards by increments of .0008 kilofoggs, and applied .006 millilitres of spit to my slide every 14.5 seconds of time spent playing Kopprasch etudes. One interesting observation from this experiment that has eluded me thus far in my life until now: I noticed that the more time I spent playing the trombone instead of measuring everything in sight, the better I got. Anyone else noticed that? ============= Reply from Conspiracy Cary: Hasn't it occurred to you that the slide spray issue is just a problem dreamed up by symphony trombonists as a way to put down non-European tradition non-military/industrial conspiracyÊtrombonists. They just SIT THERE like bumps on a log counting bars rest for hours at a time. Then when they have only 70 bars to go until that all important half note, they try to make themselves look important, like soÊmany peacocks in heat, whipping out the slide sprayer and extravagantly spraying everything in sight, including theÊviola players in front of them. I mean, when you only play two notes all night, exactly HOW is it that your slide gets dry? I think that government funding of ensembles that employ trombone players should be based soley on notes per hour played by the trombones. If that was the case all the government money would flow to the non-European tradition non-military/industrial conspiracyÊtrombonists (especially me) and the tax paying public would get way more bang for their buck. I'm sure thats what my pals, Louis Armstrong, Bird and Gil Evans, would want. ================= Reply from Atilla: Right on, Cary! Just look at those government subsidised trombonists, earning all that government subsidised money, sitting in their government subsidised chairs in their government subsidised tails, with their government subsidised wives and kids, and spraying government subsidised and over regulated water on their government subsidised slides. Let market forces rule! ================= Reply from Weeping Willie: You don't have any idea of whats in the water that you are spraying on your slides. Its the push to obey the call of market forces that has resulted in such slack regulation of our water quality that every virus and bacteria known to man is being sprayed on your slide daily. Every slide spray bottle should come with a government approvedÊwater quality monitor built in and a slide spray bottle tax should beÊimplemented to pay for this extra regulation. ============== Reply from Becky: Thanks so much for all your input. My teacher told me to stop wasting so much time on the internet and to just practice more, so I respectfully withdraw my question. Sorry to waste your time. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:35:08 -0600 From: "Shaun Hillen" To: Subject: Re: Dissention in the ranks Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bravo Thomas! Braaavo!! I think you spent a little too much time with it though. =) --Shaun (very annoyed by all of the bickering too) Hillen ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:14:36 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "Trombone List (E-mail)" Subject: CSO education cutbacks Message-ID: <01C1B9F7.676AD5C0.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Here's a little something pertinent to an earlier thread. In Sunday's (2/17) Chicago Tribune, John von Rhein writes: "A lot of ink has been shed over the so-called crisis in classical music, specifically the financial troubles of some U.S. orchestras, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra included. Yet a glance at the recently announced programming plans for the 2002-03 CSO season reveals subtle cutbacks, though no administrative panic in the corridors of symphony Center." Among the subtle changes, he writes that management "is retrenching in a core area it can ill afford to downgrade - music education." Noting cut-backs in the "in-school ensemble programs not covered by outside funding," as well as "its training ensemble, the Civic Orchestra of Chicago," von Rhein calls both moves "misguided economy." He concludes by admitting that, "Lacking a view of the big picture, we turn [the orchestra's] passing problems into grave problems, when the truth is that the Chicago symphony is in a stronger position than most U.S. orchestras to survive, and perhaps thrive, in the uncertain years ahead." Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:19:45 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Dissention in the ranks Message-ID: <454FC5BC266BDB4BBA26E5BBF2F73FEF28CE38@torxchng1.dwpv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks. My message shows that I too can waste time right up there with the best of them. -----Original Message----- From: Shaun Hillen [mailto:shaun.hillen@visd.com] Sent: February 20, 2002 12:35 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Dissention in the ranks Bravo Thomas! Braaavo!! I think you spent a little too much time with it though. =) --Shaun (very annoyed by all of the bickering too) Hillen ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:26:26 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Richard, I don't see it as being a which is greater, classical or jazz argument. No. I suppose youâre right. Itâs about money. Itâs about the people who have the money not wanting to share any of it. And itâs about racism. In the Î60s, we thought we could finally drive the spike in apartheid, here in America. We made some gains, but a lot of it just got covered up with legal icing, while it remained rotten, at the core. Itâs not surprising that a music with African roots has retained second-class status, while music with European roots is still getting funded. The only surprise thatâs come out of this little discussion is that weâve got educated musicians, here on the list, who support such bigotry. I didnât say that I expected you to like the music. But, just as Stravinsky got drummed out of Russia, by people that felt that they could define what was and what was not music, weâve got people on the list that are claiming higher ground on what music should get funding. Does that mean that Gangstaâ Rap should get federal funding, too? Iâm afraid it does. And wouldnât that be a strange twist. Do you suppose that a Rap group could maintain its credibility, if it got federal funding? Why·wannabe hoodlums might have to turn to listening to classical. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:27:05 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Dissention in the ranks Message-ID: <01C1B9F9.25BCA5C0.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey! This is even better than the "which composer are you" game. Pass the Vodka. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Smee [SMTP:TSMee@dwpv.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 9:51 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Dissention in the ranks << File: ATT00004.htm >> Its seems that these days we can't avoid controversy no matter what the topic. Let me share this debate from Spray Bottle-L: Message from Becky: Hi, I am a grade 6 trombone player in the Hoot n'Holler Primary School Band. What kind of slide sprayer do you like? ================= Reply from Bob: I like the kind that has water in it and when you push it, water comes out and goes all over the silver part of your slide. ================ Reply from Snidely Slapdash: What do you mean, "the silver part of the slide"? Has it ever occurred to you that the outer slide might be silver too. You should be careful about misleading young students through poorly thought out answers whipped off and sent into the internet. ============== Reply from Rory Ragemonger: Its nickel silver, you moron. ============ Reply form Sally Sackbutt: When we performed the music of Darius Kasparitis, a little known 14th century composer of music for sackbutt and hockey stick, at the latest three-week all Kasparitis music fest in Lower Upper Schlongwanger this last summer, I insisted that all the sackbutt players refrain from using spray bottles on their slide, and instead expectorate copiously on the inner slide during every rest, as I'm sure was done during the 14c. Also, to get the ultimate in historical accuracy and the proper consistency to our 'expectorant', we ate nothing but rotten food for three weeks and brushed our teeth with poplar twigs imported from the north of Italy, as everyone knows was the practise of brass players of that era. =============== Reply from Ernie Engineer: I'm a trombonist trapped in an engineer's mind and have studied extensively the viscosity of spit in North American climates in a confined space between two moving pieces of metal. I can report that science shows and can clearly demonstrate that the degree of humidity in the room is a far greater factor than diet or tooth brushing technique in the viscosity of spit between two closely aligned metal structures, one moving and the other in a steady state. To prove the point, I executed the following experiment: I sat alone in a climate controlled tent in my basement with my trombone for three weeks, adjusting the ambient humidity upwards and downwards by increments of .0008 kilofoggs, and applied .006 millilitres of spit to my slide every 14.5 seconds of time spent playing Kopprasch etudes. One interesting observation from this experiment that has eluded me thus far in my life until now: I noticed that the more time I spent playing the trombone instead of measuring everything in sight, the better I got. Anyone else noticed that? ============= Reply from Conspiracy Cary: Hasn't it occurred to you that the slide spray issue is just a problem dreamed up by symphony trombonists as a way to put down non-European tradition non-military/industrial conspiracy trombonists. They just SIT THERE like bumps on a log counting bars rest for hours at a time. Then when they have only 70 bars to go until that all important half note, they try to make themselves look important, like so many peacocks in heat, whipping out the slide sprayer and extravagantly spraying everything in sight, including the viola players in front of them. I mean, when you only play two notes all night, exactly HOW is it that your slide gets dry? I think that government funding of ensembles that employ trombone players should be based soley on notes per hour played by the trombones. If that was the case all the government money would flow to the non-European tradition non-military/industrial conspiracy trombonists (especially me) and the tax paying public would get way more bang for their buck. I'm sure thats what my pals, Louis Armstrong, Bird and Gil Evans, would want. ================= Reply from Atilla: Right on, Cary! Just look at those government subsidised trombonists, earning all that government subsidised money, sitting in their government subsidised chairs in their government subsidised tails, with their government subsidised wives and kids, and spraying government subsidised and over regulated water on their government subsidised slides. Let market forces rule! ================= Reply from Weeping Willie: You don't have any idea of whats in the water that you are spraying on your slides. Its the push to obey the call of market forces that has resulted in such slack regulation of our water quality that every virus and bacteria known to man is being sprayed on your slide daily. Every slide spray bottle should come with a government approved water quality monitor built in and a slide spray bottle tax should be implemented to pay for this extra regulation. ============== Reply from Becky: Thanks so much for all your input. My teacher told me to stop wasting so much time on the internet and to just practice more, so I respectfully withdraw my question. Sorry to waste your time. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:44:28 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Dissention in the ranks Message-ID: <003001c1ba36$3f009e50$a6209d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thomas, You have WAY too much time on your hands, but that is very funny stuff. Especially the Darius Kasparitis festival. My favorite piece of his is the double minor sonata. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Thomas Smee Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 10:51 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Dissention in the ranks Its seems that these days we can't avoid controversy no matter what the topic. Let me share this debate from Spray Bottle-L: Ê Message from Becky: Ê Hi, I am a grade 6 trombone player in the Hoot n'Holler Primary School Band. What kind of slide sprayer do you like? Ê ================= Ê Reply from Bob: Ê I like the kind that has water in it and when you push it, water comes out and goes all over the silver part of your slide. Ê ================ Ê Reply from Snidely Slapdash: Ê What do you mean, "the silver part of the slide"? Has it ever occurred to you that the outer slide might be silver too. You should be careful about misleading young students through poorly thought out answers whipped off and sent into the internet. Ê ============== Ê Reply from Rory Ragemonger: Ê Its nickel silver, you moron. Ê ============ Ê Reply form Sally Sackbutt: Ê When we performed the music of Darius Kasparitis, a little known 14th century composer of music for sackbutt and hockey stick, at the latest three-week all Kasparitis music fest in Lower Upper Schlongwanger this last summer, I insisted that all the sackbutt players refrain from using spray bottles on their slide, and instead expectorate copiously on the inner slide during every rest, as I'm sure was done during the 14c. Also, to get the ultimate in historical accuracy and the proper consistency to our 'expectorant', we ate nothing but rotten food for three weeks and brushed our teeth with poplar twigs imported from the north of Italy, as everyone knows was the practise of brass players of that era. Ê =============== Ê Reply from Ernie Engineer: Ê I'm a trombonist trapped in an engineer's mind and have studied extensively the viscosity of spit in North American climates in a confined space between two moving pieces of metal. I can report that science shows and can clearly demonstrate that the degree of humidity in the room is a far greater factor than diet or tooth brushing technique in the viscosity of spit between two closely aligned metal structures, one moving and the other in a steady state. To prove the point, I executed the following experiment: I sat alone in a climate controlled tent in my basement with my trombone for three weeks, adjusting the ambient humidity upwards and downwards by increments of .0008 kilofoggs, and applied .006 millilitres of spit to my slide everyÊ 14.5 seconds of time spent playing Kopprasch etudes. One interesting observation from this experiment that has eluded me thus far in my life until now: I noticed that the more time I spent playing the trombone instead of measuring everything in sight, the better I got. Anyone else noticed that? Ê ============= Ê Reply from Conspiracy Cary: Ê Hasn't it occurred to you that the slide spray issue is just a problem dreamed up by symphony trombonists as a way to put down non-European tradition non-military/industrial conspiracyÊtrombonists. They just SIT THERE like bumps on a log counting bars rest for hours at a time. Then when they have only 70 bars to go until that all important half note, they try to make themselves look important, like soÊmany peacocks in heat, whipping out the slide sprayer and extravagantly spraying everything in sight, including theÊviola players in front of them. I mean, when you only play two notes all night, exactly HOW is it that your slide gets dry? I think that government funding of ensembles that employ trombone players should be based soley on notes per hour played by the trombones. If that was the case all the government money would flow to the non-European tradition non-military/industrial conspiracyÊtrombonists (especially me) and the tax paying public would get way more bang for their buck. I'm sure thats what my pals, Louis Armstrong, Bird and Gil Evans, would want. Ê ================= Ê Reply from Atilla: Ê Right on, Cary! Just look at those government subsidised trombonists, earning all that government subsidised money, sitting in their government subsidised chairs in their government subsidised tails, with their government subsidised wives and kids, and spraying government subsidised and over regulated water on their government subsidised slides. Let market forces rule! Ê ================= Ê Reply from Weeping Willie: Ê You don't have any idea of whats in the water that you are spraying on your slides. Its the push to obey the call of market forces that has resulted in such slack regulation of our water quality that every virus and bacteria known to man is being sprayed on your slide daily. Every slide spray bottle should come with a government approvedÊwater quality monitor built in and a slide spray bottle tax should beÊimplemented to pay for this extra regulation. Ê ============== Ê Reply from Becky: Ê Thanks so much for all your input. My teacher told me to stop wasting so much time on the internet and to just practice more, so I respectfully withdraw my question. Sorry to waste your time. Ê ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:50:09 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <20020220175009.31853.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just when I thought this thread might be about to finally die... --- Daniel Pliskin wrote: > No. I suppose you’re right. It’s about money. It’s > about the people who > have the money not wanting to share any of it. And it’s > about racism. I think that's an oversimplification. I don't doubt that there's some truth to it, but I think the time has come when that racism can be overcome effectively. ALL non-profit arts groups struggle for funding. ALL non-profits have to allocate what seems like an inordinate amount of their time and resources to raise that money, including writing tedious grant applications, lunching with the rich people, managing fund-raising drives to individuals, etc. etc. etc. I know, I do it. The money is not just being handed out. EVERYBODY is working for it, including the established symphony orchestras. The difference for them is that they have more resources to allocate to fundraising activities, so they do it more effectively than smaller organizations. My point in this thread all along has been that, for the most part, jazz musicians have not entered the non-profit world. If they did, I AM CERTAIN they would find sources of funding. There are SO MANY grantmakers who stress outreach activities to "underserved communities", which, of course, mean minority communities. A non-profit jazz group programming music by African-American composers, including African-American musicians, performing in African-American communities (or likewise to Latin-American communities), would find an amazing wealth of support from grantmaking foundations. But that group has to GO OUT AND ASK FOR IT. And that's what hasn't happened yet. > > In the ‘60s, we thought we could finally drive the spike > in apartheid, here > in America. We made some gains, but a lot of it just got > covered up with > legal icing, while it remained rotten, at the core. I don't disagree - Boston (for example) is an incredibly racist city, despite all the "intellectual enlightenment" we claim to have - but I think that a lot can be done anyway, at least in the arts community. > Does that mean that Gangsta’ Rap should get federal > funding, too? I’m > afraid it does. ONLY if they could legitimately and convincingly present an educational component to their activities - that's the category arts organizations fall under in the non-profit tax code. Some forms of Rap might be able to do that, but not likely Gangsta Rap. Please please please let's not start talking about Robert Mapplethorpe and whether or not the government should be funding arts at all - we've already done it, we disagree, at this point it still does - please please please let's just leave that part of the discussion alone. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2306--