TROMBONE-L Digest 2305 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 2) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 3) Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc by Keith Davis 4) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 5) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 6) RE: Kai's Hit by Eugene Grissom 7) RE: Weak stereotype by Keith Davis 8) Re:Alto trombone info... by "J. Mark Thompson" 9) FW: The Ergobone Idea and Weight problems by "Anthony Lees" 10) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Dennis Clason" 11) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 12) Upcoming performance in New Mexico by william david proctor 13) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 14) Dead Europeans by Todd Jonz 15) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Anders.Carlsson@gfs.gu.se (Anders Carlsson) 16) Need Some BassBone Modification Help by "Kathy-Green -TJ" 17) FS: King 607F Tempo II by "posaune rex" 18) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Craig Parmerlee 19) Re: Dead Europeans by "Keith Marr" 20) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 21) Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Jeff Albert" 22) RE: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so) by "Jon Moeller" 23) RE: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Jon Moeller" 24) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 25) test by "R.A. Bates" 26) Your input on The Trebas Institute in Toronto, Canada by "Maria Tekle-Wolde" 27) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Bodie Pfost" 28) Atonality was RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Jeff Albert" 29) New resource added on Yeo website by Douglas Yeo 30) Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc by sabutin 31) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by Craig Parmerlee 32) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by Barry Green 33) RE: Enough of the Improv ? by "Jeff Albert" 34) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by sabutin 35) RE: Enough of the Improv ? by Craig Parmerlee 36) Re: Need Some BassBone Modification Help by "Daniel Pliskin" 37) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by alex iles 38) Re: Need Some BassBone Modification Help by "Steve LaRue" 39) Recordings (was Re: Atonality) by Bodie Pfost 40) Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc by "Adrian Drover" 41) Re: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Adrian Drover" 42) Re: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Adrian Drover" 43) Re: Maynard Ferguson Albums by "Adrian Drover" 44) Re: Bill Watrous by "Adrian Drover" 45) RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics & rhythm by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 46) RE: Bill Watrous by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 47) Gershwin according to Slatkin. by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 48) by "Todd Holmberg" 49) Misc. albums for sale by Carl Webster 50) RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "HICKS, JIM D" 51) Re: New resource added on Yeo website by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 52) STS webpage back up!!!!!!!!!!! by "posaune rex" 53) Airtime: was Enough of the Improv ? by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 54) Re: Enough of the Improv ? by ALFORDMB@aol.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:15:44 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <000601c1b8a8$48517900$eaa99d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:18 AM Subject: RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics > Eighty years ago or so, Aaron Copland figured that he could develop a > genuinely American orchestral idiom by using jazz as the basis for his > style. He gave it up because he found it too limiting There were areas of > emotional expression that he found that he could not go with jazz and had to > use other means to get there. Since then, jazz has moved away from popular > music to become an art music on its own. Hmmm...the mere fact that Aaron Copland could not use jazz as the basis of a "genuinely American orchestral idiom" does not mean that it cannot be done. But, why should it be done? Jazz is strong enough to stand on it's own as an art form. It is just as much an art form as is orchestral music. However, jazz is not limiting. The rhythms of jazz can be as complicated as the rhythms of orchestral music. Jazz harmonies are as interesting and as complicated as orchestral rhythms. Moreover, what emotional expressions specifically can orchestral music evoke that jazz cannot evoke? Sorrow, sadness, joy, dejection? I sincerely believe that both orchesteral music and jazz music can evoke all emotions.............whether or not YOU hear the emotions is an issue of your SUBJECTIVE hearing and NOT the inherent nature or superiority or inferiority of the music. As a matter of fact, the emotions of orchestral music can be duplicated in any form of music whether it be pop, country and western, or rap! The ability to invoke emotional expressions cannot be the only standard by which one determines great music. The idea that one can "improve" jazz by making it an "orchestral idiom" I find to be elitist. Quite frankly, I don't see how trying to force jazz into an orchestral idiom would improve jazz anymore than trying to force orchestral music into a jazz idiom would improve orchestral music. But, I must admit that Ellington's Nutcracker Suite is an excellent job of translating the orchestral idiom into a jazz idiom. I don't see it as being better than the original, just different and great in it's own way. At the risk of being overly simplistic, despite the old saying, one CAN always compare apples and oranges, or oranges and pumpkins. One can dislike one, it doesn't mean that it is inferior...just different. Or, you can like em all! Richard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:21:52 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <000d01c1b8a9$23e55360$eaa99d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Gamble" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:39 AM Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing > I realize this response may be a bit out of place, (or maybe overly > sensitive) but that phrase "dead Europeans" has come up again. (Thank you > for leaving out "white male.") "That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing" pretty > much implies that there will not be a resolution to this argument any time > soon, doesn't it? However, for those who want to keep trying, may I > suggest that refraining from the use of phrases such as "dead Europeans" > will be much more conducive to constructive conversation. There are > considerably more dead composers than living whether we're talking > classical or jazz. Art is as much or more about the artist as it is the > product, as I see it. In my whole career, I've never played or attended > any jazz or classical concert where there were any dead Europeans or dead > descendents of slaves in the audience or on the stage. So their > participation seems to be optional at best. We're not playing in a museum. > Whether the composer is dead or alive is irrelevant (well...maybe not to > the composer). > I didn't see the phrase, "dead Europeans", as being insulting, but I don't need to use the phrase to make my points. If my use of it prevents you from understanding the gist of my e-mails, then I will refrain from using the phrase in my future discussions:). ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:33:18 -0500 From: Keith Davis To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc Message-ID: <3C7148EE.2FD82AD7@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam, Well said. All of it. Thank you. Keith Davis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:32:33 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: 8guion@jmls.edu, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <8e.232fdbc9.29a2b0d1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oranges and Pumpkins and......Gershwin???? beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:46:32 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <17e.3c78aca.29a2b418@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gershwin... didn't I hear an orchestra or two... Slatkin, et al. et al. et.al.m and all that Jazz. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:47:36 -0500 (EST) From: Eugene Grissom To: Steve Gamble Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Kai's Hit Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bill, My Kai collection includes "More" - Kai Winding featuring Kenny Burrell - Verve V-8551 (which is for the most part surfing tunes) and on some earlier issues the record was titled "Soul Surfing") the section included the four horns(unnamed trombones ) five guitars, fender bass, drums and eletronic piano - earlier in that same year, 1963, when Kai recorded The Kai Trombones he used Tony Studd, Pete Vivona,Billy Byers or Bill Watrous. "More" is also featured on More Brass Kai Winding - Verve V6-8657 - Which uses 8 trombones plus expanded rhythm section - the record jacket lists a reprint from VIP (1966) which inludes the trombone section.. Gene Grissom - Rosolino Memorial Fund, Inc.. O n Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Steve Gamble wrote: > I heard this recording on the radio here in Retirementville a couple of > days ago. If we're talking about the same recording, it's not really a > trombone feature. It's more of a studio orchestra Muzakish sort of thing. > I don't remember ever hearing it before. And, to be honest, I wasn't > really paying enough attention to the radio to be sure that I hadn't tuned > in in the middle of the song. However, in the background was a trombone erve> section playing rhythmic punctuations that were so incredibly tight, pure > and balanced as to demand my attention. This station plays several songs > before the announcer reveals who and what about the music. It was one of > those situations where you get to where you're going but sit in the car to > find out what it was that you just heard. Kai Winding?...really? > > Steve Gamble > Librarian > Tucson Symphony Orchestra > 2175 N. 6th Ave. > Tucson, AZ 85705 > (520) 792-9155 x118 > (520) 792-9314 fax > sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Dinwiddie [SMTP:bill752d@attbi.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 4:01 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Kai's Hit > > I looked for "Mondo Cane" (1962) on the Website www.imdb.com (which is a > really great site for movie trivia buffs like me), and it lists the music > credits for that film as being Nino Oliviero and Riz Ortolani, so I don't > think Kai had anything to do with the movie itself. I do think you are > correct in saying that the tune "More" was from that movie. I suppose that > a > thousand people probably recorded the tune, and Kai must have gotten lucky. > > I know that JJ did participate in the music tracks for several "black > exploitation" type of films, such as "Shaft", but this was as a > composer/arranger, and this happened after he kind of "threw in the towel" > as a player during the 60's and 70's, to devote more time to writing. To my > knowledge, JJ never had anything commercially successful as a trombone > player. "J and K" albums did pretty good, but were regarded, quite > properly, > as jazz records that did better than average. > > Any one else know anything? > > Bill Dinwiddie > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:04:00 -0500 From: Keith Davis To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Weak stereotype Message-ID: <3C715E30.3205E9CC@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Drover wrote: "Improvised sections should be carefully thought out by the composer/arranger and interlaced with skillful ensemble writing. The soloists should base their solo work on the style of the chart. " Jazz Improve magazine had an excellent interview with Bob Brookmeyer in one of last year's issues. He talked about writing for jazz orchestras ( or big bands, if you will) and basically said that he only includes an improve section if he is writing for a particular soloist; the compositions must stand on their own first. The interview was a good one, and I fear that I've missed a lot of important points that he made. I'd suggest reading it if you can find it. Keith Davis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:10:16 -0600 From: "J. Mark Thompson" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re:Alto trombone info... Message-ID: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I like the Karsten Parow Initiation Complete au Trombone Alto (Billaudot) and Ken Shifrin's Alto Trombone excerpts book (Virgo). The Parow obviously assumes you know how to play, since all the "direction" you get is a slide position chart and a table of arpeggios and major scales. Then you are into 15 pages of etudes (moderate to difficult), and the next 22 pages are standard excerpts (Bach, Gluck, Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann, and "Hamlet" by Ambroise Thomas). The Shifrin is pretty complete in terms of repertoire, but as with most excerpt books, the parts are only the most important parts and are not complete. JMT Hello List! I was wondering what the appropriate mouthpiece range is for an alto trombone. On my Bach 16m I use an 11C, would it be wise to get a Bach 15 or something of that approximate size? Also....I was looking at Hickeys Catolouge, they have a few alto trombone method books. Does anyone know about them? Is there a 'better' one? I would like to find a book with "directions" about alto, but aimed at someone who can play trombone. :^) Thanks!! Liz -- Dr. J. Mark Thompson, NCTM Associate Professor, Trombone and Low Brass Northwestern State University o(318)357-5791 f(318)357-5906 ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:17:32 -0000 From: "Anthony Lees" To: "Trombone-L Mailing List" Subject: FW: The Ergobone Idea and Weight problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List, I have been reading various posts over the recent period concerning the 'ergobone'. This is in fact not the first solution to the problem. I am lucky enough to be taught by a bass trombonist called Ian Davies. He is a professional freelance bass trombonist who has and is working in many of England's top orchestra's and groups, including; City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, B.B.C Philharmonic Orchestra, B.B.C. Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Halle Orchestra.(Manchester), English Northern Philharmonia Orchestra, The Northern Sinfonia Orchestra, The Royal Scottish National Orchestra, North of England Chamber Orchestra, The Ulster Orchestra of Ireland, National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, Welsh National Opera. And also with our countries youth orchestra's and young ensembles. Ian was reaching the peak of his career; he had been principal bass trombonist of the English Northern Philharmonia (the orchestra of Opera North, whom incidentally he is again working with). Ian then developed a condition known as Distonia in his left arm. It left him unable to support the instrument as the muscle had damaged the nerve in a way whereby the arm shuddered when supporting the trombone. It also created substantial pain. Ian then went through a very rough time, but he teamed up with Mick Rath (who is now becoming an increasingly prominent trombone manufacturer). He and Ian developed the Rath/Davies support system. This ingenious device required massive amounts of backroom work on both Ian and Mick's part, but now has led to Ian making a full return to his playing career; now having a very active and successful freelance career, playing modified Rath R8 and R9 bass trombones (modified to use the Rath/Davies support system). I have written this with Ian's permission as I think that the Rath/Davies support system has not attracted the attention it should, as there are many players who have maybe had similar problems or different problems that require aid and help. Ian and Mick Rath offer consultation sessions. A picture of Ian playing with his trombone with the Rath/Davies support system is available here: http://www.rathtrombones.com/ Under Repairs and Customisation, also available are details on all the Rath trombones. If you wish to contact Ian to discuss his solution or maybe seek a consultation session or help, you can do so at: ianandalisondavies@btinternet.com I hope that this email has been of help to someone or informative, Many thanks, Anthony Lees ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:56:01 -0700 From: "Dennis Clason" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm gonna have to jump in here on the side of Sam: > 1. When does music have to sit around hundreds of years before it is > "declared" great? By the way, who declares it "great?" Jazz is not a soup > or gumbo that "tastes" better the 2nd day. The notes that Duke Ellington, > Charles Mingus, or Count Basis wrote before they died will be the same > notes > 200 years from now! If those notes will be great then, they are great now. > Following the rationale of.."it has to be old to be good", then any > orchestral music written this century is, by definition, not great. Spurgeon's Law suggests that 90% of everything is crap. Time is the filter that separates the crap from the good stuff. As in any winnowing process, some of the good stuff gets tossed out with the junk. As someone pointed out, the trick in art music is NOT getting a premiere -- that's easy. The hard part is getting the second and third performance. A conductor friend (Bill Clark) is fond of saying there are three necessary entities in a musical performance: composer, performer, and audience. In the case of art music, once the notes are on the page, the composer is out of the loop. This is why (as Steve Gamble noted) we don't have dead composers hanging out in the halls. That leaves two legs of the triangle: audience and performer. For music to survive, the composer must produce notes that performers want to play, and that audiences want to hear. If performers don't want to play the notes, the audience won't get to hear them. If the audience doesn't like the notes, the performers won't play them. The winnowing process in art music involves arriving at those works that performers like to play (or at least don't mind playing), and that audiences like to listen to. Or at least, that the audience doesn't mind listening to. This is why concert programming is its own art: you can include some works the audience (as a whole) won't particularly like (say, Persichetti's Bagatelles), but if you program a full concert of that sort of thing, you'll play to a pretty empty hall. Now, the nice thing about programming the Bagatelles (as an example), is that some people in the audience will find out that they like that sort of music. Some members of the ensemble will find out that they like at least some elements of that musical genre. And some performers and some audience members will confirm that they really do dislike that stuff. That's how the winnowing process works. Trial and error, some works survive, others don't. Those that don't survive die for a multitude of reasons: the work had no champion, wasn't fashionable, was overshadowed by the work of others, or was just bad. Name an English composer between Purcell and Elgar. It wasn't fashionable, even in England -- the Mountbatten's imported their own musical preferences from the continent. Name a composition (or better, hum a melody) by Salieri: overshadowed by the boy genius named Mozart. I've heard some of Salieri's music (beyond the snippets in Amadeus). While he was no Mozart, he wasn't quite the hack portrayed in Amadeus, either. Time is the only effective filter, I think. That's why we have to wait a while before declaring something great -- it takes the test of time to make that determination. Dennis -- ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:20:49 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E71249F9@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Let me try this again. I sent it out this morning and haven't seen it in my inbox. > Let us not forget the long view here. If we consider that > "Classical" music > is about 1400 years old (if you consider the beginning to be the > first > codification of the canonical hours in the "Rule of St. Benedict," > c. 520) > as compared to "Jazz" being less than 150 years old (the origins of > Jazz > could be another blue-in-the-face discussion) this conversation > takes on a > new tint. > > snip > > Jazz is not yet proven to be "great" in my view. Perhaps in 500 or > 1000 > years it won't even be recognized, or perhaps it will be all that we > know. > For now, though, it isn't great - it just is. > > What's the point of trying to look 500 years into the future? Look 500 > years into the past! What kind of music existed in 1502? Great stuff to be > sure. You don't get much greater than Josquin des Prez, but how much of > that music actually gets heard nowadays? And where do you have to go to > hear it? There are no symphonies or concertos or operas by Josquin. Our > most important choirs are far too large to sing his masses, motets, and > chansons. If you want to hear Josquin, you have to go to specialists in > early music. > > 100 years is ample to establish something as a classic. Actually, when all > the people who were alive and interested in any music when it was new are > all dead, consider it a classic if anyone else still cares about it. > > Now, even by that standard, jazz is new. But all of the classics of the > western art music tradition were subsidized when they were new! Think > about it! Beethoven had three aristocrats who essentially paid him not to > move from Vienna to Paris, where he might have been more commercially > successful. Haydn and nearly every earlier composer were hirelings, > writing music to order for rich people. > > I wrote earlier that the form of jazz has African roots. More immediately, > it came up from the most disreputable parts of town. First it had to > become respectable. Then it had to become popular (that is, commercial). > Only then did anyone think to make art from it. It has to make its way > commercially because that's how it started. Orchestral music is subsidized > by the government because that's how it started. > > There's no reason it has to stay that way, but it might be hard to come up > with compelling reasons for grant-making organizations to change their > ways. > > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > David Guion, Cataloging Librarian > The John Marshall Law School > 315 S. Plymouth Ct. > Chicago, IL 60604 > Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 > 8guion@jmls.edu > > Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? > > Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. > > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:50:54 -0700 From: william david proctor To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Upcoming performance in New Mexico Message-ID: <431572284.1014043854@bldg62-0189.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To any who might be in or close to the Albuquerque, NM area this week: Friday, Feb. 22 at 7:30 pm the University of New Mexico Wind Symphony will be performing a concert at St. Paul's Lutheran Chruch (1100 Indian School Rd.) The program includes the "Profanation" from Bernstein's Jeremiah Symphony, William Schuman's New England Triptych (Be Glad Then America; When Jesus Wept; Chester), and the Gregson Tuba Concerto with Sam Pilafian as featured soloist. Admission is free. Mr. Pilafian will also be giving a masterclass on Wednesday Feb. 20 at 7:30 pm in the Fine Arts Building rm. B117. Anyone who wants more info may email me off the list. Have a good one! David Proctor bass trombone University of New Mexico ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:01:00 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <003401c1b8c7$c08db680$c262a9ac@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clason" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:56 PM Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing > Time is the only effective filter, I think. That's why we have > to wait a while before declaring something great -- it takes the > test of time to make that determination. > > Dennis I disagree, Dennis. Some have expressed the opinion that time is one of the determining factors of greatness. Some have stated that another determining factor of musical greatness is the intringent nature of the music to express emotions. Both, I submit, are subjective judgments that would eliminate any of the music of the last 50-100 years from being great. On a more basic level, if we use the term "greatness", as defined by some, to determine whether or not a form of music receives substantial government or corporate support, we automatically eliminate jazz because jazz is not an art form that has reached the level of 'greatness" because (1) it has not been around long enough or (2) it doesn't touch someone's subjective emotional levels. I am not the biggest classical musical buff, but didn't many of the classical musicians of yore receive money from "patrons" (roughly equivalent to corporate support) and also from the government? And wasn't this support given even when some of these classical artists were not recognized as "great' in their own time? Many were even ridiculed! Obviously the patrons recognized that these classical artists were great and felt that they needed the wherewithal to create this music. They did not wait for the music to stand the test of time. If the patrons had done so, many of those musicians would not have been able to write the music that we view as great today. Even today, the majority of the general public does not recognize the greatness of classical music and would rather see the latest movie than go and hear a world-class orchestra. In the public's eye, the fact that these orchestral work have been around for centuries have not bestowed upon them the status of greatness, at least to the extent that they want to hear greatness. Jazz musicians have some similarities to those classical musicians of yore. Some people, such as Sam Burtis, recognize the greatness that is there. Many will withhold support, financial or otherwise, because the music form has not stood the "test of time." If we wait for jazz music to stand the test of time, then much music will go uncreated because the potential jazz musician had to take employment as a plumber or lawyer as opposed to creating music. Jazz, in it's own right, has musicians living today, that are as great as those that wrote many famous orchestral works. That is why jazz music deserves the same status and financial support as does orchestral music. While we discuss this esoterically issue of greatness, potential great music goes uncreated! Just one man's opinion, Richard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:05:59 -0800 From: Todd Jonz To: Trombone-L mailing list Subject: Dead Europeans Message-ID: <20020218140559.J27171@tj.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Steve Gamble writes: > In my whole career, I've never played or attended any jazz > or classical concert where there were any dead Europeans or > dead descendents of slaves in the audience or on the stage. They probably can't afford today's ticket prices. Inflation, y'know... -- Todd Jonz When cryptography is outlawed, todd@tj.org bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:31:44 +0100 From: Anders.Carlsson@gfs.gu.se (Anders Carlsson) Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From: "Craig Parmerlee" ------- >but it is really easy to put an audience to sleep with >> that canned "I play 4 choruses, you play 4, and then the bass will >play 2, >> oh and don't forget the drummer" format. I appreciate some clever >ensemble >> writing included in the mix. -------- "Adrian Drover" writes: >Too true. I get bored to tears whenever I have to play or listen to a >chart >that has an open improvised section, especially when the leader gets >every >guy in the band to play several choruses back to back. What's often referred to as queue ticket jazz among the guys I play with. Not that I'm not guilty myself. ;-) /Anders Carlsson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:44:21 -0800 From: "Kathy-Green -TJ" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Need Some BassBone Modification Help Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, A couple of years ago, many of you were very encouraging with me about the hand/arm/wrist problems I was encountering as I began to play bass bone again. Several of you sent exercises that were most helpful. I was doing well, until about 3 months ago. Since then I have had the nerve conduction tests, and the good news is that I do not have carpal tunnel, or cubital tunnel (which is the elbow) in my left arm. I went to a reputable hand doctor in Seattle (recommended by symphony players) and among other things, he strongly suggested I have some physical modifications made to the instrument, which I did not have done two years ago. I am already getting better physically. I need some suggestions: which modifications are available (i.e. the Stegman bar, etc.) and where to purchase them, also any other things that you all might have done. Or websites that might have some suggestions for modifications. I have a Yamaha 622 (Doug Yeo's horn) and have tried his grip, but it was causing nerve problems in my finger, even with a glove on. I am a woman with only average to small sized hands, and that is the main problem. I would ESPECIALLY like to hear from other female bass trombonists to hear what you have done to make your instruments more comfortable for you. I play bass trombone in the Seattle Women's Jazz Orchestra (www.swojo.com) and hope very much that I don't have to give up bass trombone permanently. I do have a great brass repair person here in the Seattle area who has done modifications like this before. It does take him a while, but he will do good work. Thank you and you can e-mail me privately at kgreen@fwsd.wednet.edu or katerose@aol.com Kathy Green, Band Director Thomas Jefferson High School "Iâve never known a musician who regretted being one. Whatever deceptions life may have in store for you, music itself is not going to let you down." Virgil Thomson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:23:29 From: "posaune rex" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: FS: King 607F Tempo II Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed For Sale: Used King 607F tenor trombone. closed-wrap F attachment. Plastic linkage. condition: some lacquer wear. Tuning slides all work. Handslide very smooth. Serial # 39-272580. some small dings. case: original King hard case. extras: includes tuning slide grease and original paperwork. Also includes extra valve string. Trombone is $700 new. Used $300 obo. Buyer pays actual shipping. Please email RAKastner@hotmail.com with questions and offers. stacy werblin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:31:31 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020218181639.00b6e438@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:31 PM 2/18/2002 +0100, Anders Carlsson wrote: >From: "Craig Parmerlee" ------- >but it is really easy to put an audience to sleep with >> that canned "I play 4 choruses, you play 4, and then the bass will >play 2, >> oh and don't forget the drummer" format. I appreciate some clever >ensemble >> writing included in the mix. -------- "Adrian Drover" writes: >Too true. I get bored to tears whenever I have to play or listen to a >chart >that has an open improvised section, especially when the leader gets >every >guy in the band to play several choruses back to back. What's often referred to as queue ticket jazz among the guys I play with. Not that I'm not guilty myself. ;-) /Anders Carlsson I didn't mean it to be a "guilt" sort of thing. We all do head charts, and we all jam from time to time. It is fun, and in the right circumstances, it is good for the audience too. I think the heart of this whole discussion is great composition versus great performance. There are some (but not too many) spontaneous, improvised performances I am really glad I caught live. There are almost none that I care to listen to on record. If these big name artists want to get on stage and just play whatever inspires them at the moment, that is their prerogative. Maybe it will be a great performance, maybe it won't. But one thing is for sure. Whatever happens is over as soon as the musicians walk off the stage. In other words, there is no great music that survives for the ages. That is why it is so difficult to draw a line of comparison with symphonic compositions. There we have exactly the opposite case. The work sounds more or less the same whether it is the NY Phil or whether it is a good community orchestra. Sure, the playing may be a bit more precise, the intonation a little more locked in, and the phrasing a little more dramatic, but in the end it is the composer and not the performers that make the day. Come back in another 50 years and that music will still be just as great with a whole new set of musicians. Where I think jazz as an idiom is coming up short is that it is only a minority of the groups that go for great compositions and inspired arrangements. That was the bread and butter of big bands, most of the smaller ensembles focus more on the performance than the composition. The result is a lot of good performance, but not so much music that stands on its own as material for the ages to be performed again and again by future generations. I realize that is a sweeping generalization and there are plenty of examples to the contrary. But my humble suggestion to the jazz community is "Enough of the improv already. We get that. Compose some great music." Cents 13 and 14. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:18:29 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Dead Europeans Message-ID: <014801c1b8d6$51657400$323e86d9@tiny> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's also the issue of disabled access to some our older concert halls. You just can't get the coffin through the door! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Jonz" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 10:05 PM Subject: Dead Europeans > > Steve Gamble writes: > > > In my whole career, I've never played or attended any jazz > > or classical concert where there were any dead Europeans or > > dead descendents of slaves in the audience or on the stage. > > They probably can't afford today's ticket prices. Inflation, y'know... > > > -- > Todd Jonz When cryptography is outlawed, > todd@tj.org bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:16:29 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <000c01c1b8da$adde68a0$eaa99d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics > Where I think jazz as an idiom is coming up short is that it is only a > minority of the groups that go for great compositions and inspired > arrangements. That was the bread and butter of big bands, most of the > smaller ensembles focus more on the performance than the composition. The > result is a lot of good performance, but not so much music that stands on > its own as material for the ages to be performed again and again by future > generations. I realize that is a sweeping generalization and there are > plenty of examples to the contrary. But my humble suggestion to the jazz > community is "Enough of the improv already. We get that. Compose some > great music." > > Cents 13 and 14. > Craig Bob Brookmeyer writes great jazz music. Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Charles Mingus, not to mention the music played by the Stan Kenton band. These are great songs. Jazz as an idion is not coming up short.....just my opinion. Great music is being composed and more would be composed if there were more support of it. Improvisation is an integral part of jazz. As long as there are jazz musicians, improv will be both bad and good! I personally prefer the big band format to the small group format. But the small group does not comprise the entirety of jazz. Listen to some of the stuff by the Dave Holland band.....small ensemble format but very good music. Robin Eubanks writing and improvisational skills are phenominal. I also think that the jazz format has definitely done more to increase the technical facility of the trombonist than the orchestral realm ever has. I agree though......I've heard a lot of bad improv. But that is the adventure of jazz........the anticipation of not knowing what is coming next! ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:14:48 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <000e01c1b8da$71493910$41269d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But my humble suggestion to the jazz community is "Enough of the improv already. We get that. Compose some great music." Cents 13 and 14. Craig =================================================================== Without the improvisation, is it really still jazz...? Jeff Albert ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:31:44 -0600 From: "Jon Moeller" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so) Message-ID: <000e01c1b8dc$cf230820$9401a8c0@Jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A so called "bass trombone" shouldn't even be called a bass, if you added an extra valve on a euphonium; would it still be called a euphonium, or a bass euphonium? -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:42 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so) --- Adrian Drover wrote: > Come to think of it, why is the bass trombone not called > a baritone > trombone? > > Adrian > > Robin Eubanks likes to call his large-bore tenor a baritone trombone Gabe > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:11:40 -0600 From: "Jon Moeller" To: "Trombone List" Subject: RE: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <000001c1b8e2$6308df10$9401a8c0@Jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think that it is... Improvisation:jazz::lyrics:(c)rap If you take the lyrics out of rap then all you are left with is a 2 maybe 3 chord progression, and some funky percussion stuff. Same goes for jazz and improv -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Albert Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 6:15 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics But my humble suggestion to the jazz community is "Enough of the improv already. We get that. Compose some great music." Cents 13 and 14. Craig =================================================================== Without the improvisation, is it really still jazz...? Jeff Albert ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:58:38 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E71249F7@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Let us not forget the long view here. If we consider that "Classical" > music > is about 1400 years old (if you consider the beginning to be the first > codification of the canonical hours in the "Rule of St. Benedict," c. 520) > as compared to "Jazz" being less than 150 years old (the origins of Jazz > could be another blue-in-the-face discussion) this conversation takes on a > new tint. > snip > Jazz is not yet proven to be "great" in my view. Perhaps in 500 or 1000 > years it won't even be recognized, or perhaps it will be all that we know. > For now, though, it isn't great - it just is. > What's the point of trying to look 500 years into the future? Look 500 years into the past! What kind of music existed in 1502? Great stuff to be sure. You don't get much greater than Josquin des Prez, but how much of that music actually gets heard nowadays? And where do you have to go to hear it? There are no symphonies or concertos or operas by Josquin. Our most important choirs are far too large to sing his masses, motets, and chansons. If you want to hear Josquin, you have to go to specialists in early music. 100 years is ample to establish something as a classic. Actually, when all the people who were alive and interested in any music are all dead, consider it a classic if anyone else still cares about it. Now, even by that standard, jazz is new. But all of the classics of the western art music tradition were subsidized when they were new! Think about it! Beethoven had three aristocrats who essentially paid him not to move from Vienna to Paris, where he might have been more commercially successful. Haydn and nearly every earlier composer were hirelings, writing music to order for rich people. I wrote earlier that the form of jazz has African roots. More immediately, it came up from the most disreputable parts of town. First it had to become respectable. Then it had to become popular (that is, commercial). Only then did anyone think to make art from it. It has to make its way commercially because that's how it started. Orchestral music is subsidized by the government because that's how it started. There's no reason it has to stay that way, but it might be hard to come up with compelling reasons for grant-making organizations to change their ways. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:44:38 -0500 From: "R.A. Bates" To: "Trom Bone List" Subject: test Message-ID: <002a01c1b8e6$feeeb450$4defd018@bates> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C1B8BD.15337C70" test ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:58:15 -0600 From: "Maria Tekle-Wolde" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Your input on The Trebas Institute in Toronto, Canada Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1B8B6.9A0286A0" Hello listers.. I'm still alive.. :-) I was just looking for some input on this school.. I'm actually going to be in Toronto a week from today visiting the city and have heard wonderful things about this "school" If you have any information.. recommendations and etc.. I would appreciate it.. And if your by chance located in Toronto and wouldn't mind giving a visitor some pointers of good jazz clubs and/or musical events.. let me know.. and yes.. I know.. Lindberg was JUST THERE!! ahhhh I missed him by like a week... shucks!! Hope all in the trombone world is great and I'd like to tell anyone that has to do with the Utah Symphony.. BRAVO!!! on the Olympics gig... marvelous performance (I wish I had dat gig).. (caused me to pull out my Boulder tapes and listen to LarryÊZalkind'sÊmasterclass, really sorry if I misspelled his name) And for some of you "friends" of mine... yes.. I miss the trombone like mad... wishing I wouldn't of quit but if I can help the industry in recording, here I come!! :-D Ciao for now, Maria T. Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:33:11 -0800 From: "Bodie Pfost" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <3c71b967.7104.0@humboldt1.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Let us not forget the long view here. If we consider that "Classical" music >> is about 1400 years old (if you consider the beginning to be the first >> codification of the canonical hours in the "Rule of St. Benedict," c. 520) >> as compared to "Jazz" being less than 150 years old (the origins of Jazz >> could be another blue-in-the-face discussion) this conversation takes on a >> new tint Has anyone considered that it took jazz less than 150 years to develop harmonically to the point of atonality, when it took "classical" music roughly 1400 years to get there? ...interesting. -Bodie ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:31:57 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: Atonality was RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <001501c1b8ed$9a438240$41269d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone considered that it took jazz less than 150 years to develop harmonically to the point of atonality, when it took "classical" music roughly 1400 years to get there? ...interesting. -Bodie ======================================================================= Actually it took jazz less than 75 years to reach that point, but I am not sure what the point of the statement is. You act like they exist in vacuums completely isolated from each other. Jazz musicians were hearing atonal classical music just like everyone else. MUSIC started to use atonality in the early 20th century, I don't think a jazz/classical distinction is necessary. Actually that distinction is not really necessary at all. It is all just music, free to be liked or disliked. Just because I like Bruckner and don't care for Vivaldi doesn't mean I have to denigrate all baroque music, or fuel a baroque versus romantic argument like their merits are mutually exclusive. Jeff Albert ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:48:13 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: New resource added on Yeo website Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Further to my message of the other day when I talked about the value of a balanced, pluralistic and relaxed life, I have just completed adding another major resource to my website. It has nothing at all to do with the trombone, but everything to do with who I am and the kinds of things I value. Everyone has hobbies and interests. Apart from my family, church, reading, music (many different expressions) and such, my two "hobbies" are gothic architecture of churches in France and the sculpture of American artist Daniel Chester French. Most people know of French's work because of his most famous statue: the monument of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC. But he designed and sculpted many other magnificent pieces, and I've enjoyed seeing many of them over the years, it's a bit of a pilgrimage for me to seek them out and see them in situ. Recently, I've thought to bring along my digital camera to photograph French's monuments when I see them, and I've decided to add these images to my website. I find them to be not only beautiful, but very provocative and thoughtful. Contemplation on one of French's sculptures can lead you to an interesting place. This new resource, titled "Daniel Chester French: Sculptures In Situ" (with images of five sculptures at the moment - it will grow as I revisit and locate others), is listed on my home page (www.yeodoug.com) or you can reach it directly at: http://www.yeodoug.com/daniel_chester_french.html There is precious little about French on the web, I'm pleased to add something to bring people into contact with some of his work. Enjoy. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:31:34 -0500 From: sabutin To: ellard@sprint.ca Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sam asked: "It has changed the way so-called "popular" music is played...I mean, who INVENTED the rhythm section of bass, drums and chordal instruments that now routinely drives rock, pop, B'way, blues, country music and most of the popular music of the rest of the world as well?" Muddy Waters ================== No...it was "invented", as far as anyone knows, by New Orleans musicians that predated Louis Armstrong by a generation or perhaps two. Late 1800s, early 1900s, and it was largely derived from a fusion of the European band tradition and African drum traditions. (And by "bass" I did not mean "string bass"...I meant any instrument that plays bass lines in a rhythm section manner...string bass, tuba, bass sax...whatever works.) S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:37:22 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020218221502.01e922b8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:14 PM 2/18/2002 -0600, jalbert@bellsouth.netwrote: But my humble suggestion to the jazz community is "Enough of the improv already. We get that. Compose some great music." Cents 13 and 14. Craig =================================================================== Without the improvisation, is it really still jazz...? Jeff Albert Absolutely. Some of the best jazz compositions have no improv at all. I'm thinking of some great Thad Jones/Mel Louis pieces. OK, maybe they have a little noodling along the way, but it certainly isn't the essence of the composition in every case. Jazz has its own tonality, its own phrasing, and voicings that depart from convention. I'm not saying that improvisation should be totally eliminated, but improvisation does nothing to help a work become a masterpiece. I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I know when I listen to the jazz program on our university's radio station, you will get 10 of the tired old "head, jam 10 choruses, head again, and out" tunes before you get one track that actually represents some compositional thought and arranging skill. I like this stuff better than rap, but honestly, I don't think the artists spent any more time preparing than the rap artists do in these cases. At least with rap, those artists take the time to make their lines rhyme. There are jazz groups that do significant compositions or arrangements, but those are mostly big bands like McConnell, Wattrous and Ferguson a few years back, Connick, etc. A local group, the Wallarab/Buselli big band does some terrific arrangements, and they have scored some of that for symphony orchestra. I had the pleasure playing a number of these charts with a local orchestra last year. This material was absolutely worthy of the concert hall in my judgment. But you rarely hear this type of material on the "serious jazz" stations. And I see no reason why smaller groups shouldn't invest a similar effort in the compositional side of things. In the jazz enclave, there seems to be an institutional bias against composition. Look at the syllabus for any jazz camp. It is all about improvisation. The people in the jazz establishment act as if improvisation is the only thing. In my mind, it isn't the only thing at all -- it isn't even close to being the most important thing These days, everybody has improv chops. Much ado over nothing, in my opinion. Stating a minority opinion, I'm sure, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:52:15 -0800 From: Barry Green To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit There is so much incredible music out there in jazz that is composition oriented, take the yellowjackets for example, Russell Ferrante, Bob Mintzer and Jimmy Haslip are incredible composers as well as improvisers. I've been working on a big band cd of their music and not only is it complex, challenging and listenable there's much opportunity for great improvisation. Michael Brecker, Pat Metheny, Gil Evans...........There's hardly enough time to listen to it all..... Barry Green ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:08:08 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <003301c1b8fb$0a02c3e0$41269d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig, I appreciate the fact that you would rather listen to an ensemble section from a big band, than an improvised solo. That is your taste, and it is cool with me, but jazz by definition IS improvisation. Without the improvised solos, the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis orchestra would have been a chamber group, not a jazz group, regardless of the harmonies or rhythmic feel. Random House Dictionary: jazz: a form of native American music marked by improvisation, propulsive rhythms and polyphonic ensemble playing Gridley, Mark C. Jazz Styles and Analysis Third Edition p.4 "...there are some traits that characterize jazz of different eras. Two of these traits are improvisation and jazz swing feeling." Notice the word is *and*, not *or*. Tirro, Frank. Jazz: A History Second Edition p. 3 "Improvisation is a crucial feature of jazz, and the spontaneous creation of new works within its stylistic parameters is the key to jazz performance." Yanow, Scott. An Overview and Introduction to Jazz (published in the All Music Guide to Jazz p. 1237) "Essentially jazz is music that puts an emphasis on improvisation..." If you don't like to listen to improvised solos, but do like to listen to big bands made up mostly of jazz musicians, that is fine, and I won't even question your taste. You had enough taste to become a trombone player, that is enough for me. That does not change the definition of jazz however. Jazz is defined by improvisation. If I really liked opera overtures, but hated listening to singers, the stuff that I listened to would only be tangentially related to opera. Without the singing, its not really opera: without improvisation, its not really jazz. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:37 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? At 06:14 PM 2/18/2002 -0600, jalbert@bellsouth.netwrote: >But my humble suggestion to the jazz >community is "Enough of the improv already. We get that. Compose some >great music." > >Cents 13 and 14. >Craig >=================================================================== > >Without the improvisation, is it really still jazz...? > >Jeff Albert Absolutely. Some of the best jazz compositions have no improv at all. I'm thinking of some great Thad Jones/Mel Louis pieces. OK, maybe they have a little noodling along the way, but it certainly isn't the essence of the composition in every case. Jazz has its own tonality, its own phrasing, and voicings that depart from convention. I'm not saying that improvisation should be totally eliminated, but improvisation does nothing to help a work become a masterpiece. I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I know when I listen to the jazz program on our university's radio station, you will get 10 of the tired old "head, jam 10 choruses, head again, and out" tunes before you get one track that actually represents some compositional thought and arranging skill. I like this stuff better than rap, but honestly, I don't think the artists spent any more time preparing than the rap artists do in these cases. At least with rap, those artists take the time to make their lines rhyme. There are jazz groups that do significant compositions or arrangements, but those are mostly big bands like McConnell, Wattrous and Ferguson a few years back, Connick, etc. A local group, the Wallarab/Buselli big band does some terrific arrangements, and they have scored some of that for symphony orchestra. I had the pleasure playing a number of these charts with a local orchestra last year. This material was absolutely worthy of the concert hall in my judgment. But you rarely hear this type of material on the "serious jazz" stations. And I see no reason why smaller groups shouldn't invest a similar effort in the compositional side of things. In the jazz enclave, there seems to be an institutional bias against composition. Look at the syllabus for any jazz camp. It is all about improvisation. The people in the jazz establishment act as if improvisation is the only thing. In my mind, it isn't the only thing at all -- it isn't even close to being the most important thing These days, everybody has improv chops. Much ado over nothing, in my opinion. Stating a minority opinion, I'm sure, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:12:28 -0500 From: sabutin To: trombird@home.com Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sabutin wrote: The music deserves more. ALL great music deserves more. Then Chuck asked: Why? Then Sabutin answered: One of the Greek philsophers...Aristotle ??? Pythagoras???...wrote that if you wish to change the culture, all you must do is change the music. No matter who worte that first, I believe it to be true. and, There's your "objective standard". NOW what? Let me try to put your answer into one concise sentence. "All great music deserves more support because music has the power to change culture." Is that what you are saying? If so, who gets to decide what vision of culture should prevail? You? Me? ================= Ahhhh...there's the rub. I would say that those who really get to make that decision are those that succeed...in any way possible...in getting their music produce AND accepted by a certain proportion of society. Making the music is onlu part of the problem, and it's the part that has alread, to a great degree been taken care of. There are writers and performers aplenty, in NY, in LA, in Paris + London + Indianapolis and who knows where else. good ones, great ones. They just haven't solved he problem of financing. Used to be able to be done through commercial avenues...record companies, tours. Not getting rich, but surviving and growing. Seems as if those ways have closed up just a few degrees, enough so that the growth part has been effectively stopped, and I think perhaps it's time for new approaches. ===================== In this view, music is just a tool of social change. And that seems to be consistent with the rest of your note: Music changes things, for better or for worse. Expose people on a broad level to the music of vicious sons of bitches like Snoop Doggy Dogg and Puff Daddy Combs...and trust me, these are some BAD men...and you get exactly what you deserve. But that tool must be used by someone to be effective. And the burning question would be, WHO gets to wield that tool? ============== Once again,,,the one(s) who can make he music AND successfully figure out tactically how to present it to a wider audience. ============ If the answer is that individuals should *exclusively* decide for themselves what music they will listen to (free market consumption) then, at this point in time anyway, the ideals of (quoting Sabutin), "a certain kind of mutual generosity and respect" and "dedication, hard work and original thought" are losing out to the spirit of Puff Daddy Combs and Snoop Doggy Dogg. And that's just the way it is. (And this is happening IN SPITE OF the non-profit support of some "great" music.) ============== I believe this is true. I believe, if unchecked, it will eventually contribute to the demise of this society. And, I believe that would be tragic. I am a passionately "American" person. I believe this noble experiment in democracy and capitalism, flawed though it is and has been, is the best hope for the continued growth and evolution of mankind. I really do...and yet the unchecked power of greed, be it evinced by industrial monopolists like Carnegie + Rockefeller or monopolistic cultural entities like Time/Warner, must be opposed and at least MODIFIED by effective government, be it the trust-busting legislation of the early 20th century or cultural support of valid arts that are perhaps not so profitable as Snoop Doggy Dogg or Puff Daddy. (Or Brittany Spears or Mariah Carey or...fill in the blanks.) ================================== On the other hand, if we are going to attempt to eclipse the message being conveyed by Snoop Doggy Dogg et al., through massive funding of some alternative music and accompanying message (and it would take MASSIVE funding to eclipse it) then we are concentrating an inordinate amount of power in the hands of those few who would decide what that alternative should be. This kind of social engineering strikes me as dangerous but futile on the one hand and arrogant on the other. It was 50 years ago that John Dewey died and yet we are STILL paying off the debt of having bought into some of his educational philosophies (ie., Snoop Doggy Dogg). It was supposed to be education instead of music, teachers instead of musicians, who were the "change agents," but the idea was the same. The "message of jazz" (whatever that is), if it is to change culture, must be able to stand on its own in the realm of competing philosophies and must be able to change hearts because it is true, recognizeable, coherent, and because it resonates with people. I'm not so sure it is all those things. ============= I am sure of it, myself, and am now searching for ways to prove it, at least in terms of my own small corner of the production of that music. If 5 or 10 or 20 orchestras arise that can do this, then maybe something WILL change. If not...the attempt was at least made. Maybe this isn't the way things will go. Then I'm wrong. C'est la vie. Maybe it will evolve in a way that more resembles the independent film movement. Maybe it won't evolve at all. Can't blame me (and lots of others) for trying. ========================= Having said all that, I must also say that I don't like where this "objective standard" places music within the larger market of things that vie for our time. Given this standard, all music (good or bad) is to be judged on its message ("throw the garbage out" to paraphrase Sabutin). In other words, the underlying agenda of the music is what really matters. That sure isn't what I am looking for in most of the music I listen to. Nor is it what I come away with. There's your "objective standard". NOW what? If that's the best we can come up with as a justification for the support of jazz, then I think we are BETTER OFF with the situation Sam described doing Ellington's Sacred music (for those who didn't get a chance to read his description, the concert was brought together with very little rehearsal/budget/time, etc). Or, maybe the problem doesn't have anything to do with "objective standards." Perhaps it is as simple as something Sabutin brought up in another note. He said, Fats Waller said it best. When asked the question "What is swing?" he answered "If you don't know...I can't tell you." Perhaps the problem with jazz is that liking it is an "all or nothing" situation where either you do or you don't and no amount of education, exposure, social engineering, or anything else is going to make a bit of difference. And maybe there just aren't enough people around who like jazz to EVER bring it the respectability, following and money that Sabutin has been referring to. I don't believe that, but that's just me. Chuck ============ We'll see... S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:10:15 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020218234230.00b71050@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:08 PM 2/18/2002 -0600, Jeff Albert wrote: Craig, I appreciate the fact that you would rather listen to an ensemble section from a big band, than an improvised solo. That is your taste, and it is cool with me, but jazz by definition IS improvisation. No, that's not what I'm saying. I like big bands OK, but they aren't my main or only passion. I just mentioned them as examples of jazz that has a significant compositional content across the board. I enjoy a great improvised solo when it adds to an already great composition. You cited all sorts of people who stated that jazz=improvisation. Yes, I agree the institutional jazz community has pushed this this point of view. That is reflected in what gets the most airtime and what is most revered by the jazz elite. The point I am trying to make is that performance-centric music will never produce classic works, which was the problem this whole thread began with. It is composition, not performance, that enables music to survive the test of time. There are musicians out there -- and happily some of them are scoring for smaller ensembles -- who are WRITING some very exciting, inspiring music that is clearly (to me anyway) jazz, regardless of how much improvisation happens to be included. Some of those artists have been mentioned by others here. I am familiar with people like Methaney, the Yellowjackets, and Brecker, and I definitely appreciate the references to other innovative jazz composers I haven't heard yet. Where I live, these innovators get almost no airplay. What makes it on the jazz programs is the conventional "jam to a groove" stuff. My personal opinion is that most of that music will continue to be enjoyed by a small fraction of the population. That's how I see it anyway. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:40:44 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Need Some BassBone Modification Help Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kathy, A couple of years ago someone mentioned that they were very happy with a glove, which had some structure in it, designed for bowlers. Thatâs my best shot at what you might do, short of something to support the whole weight of the trombone. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:41:42 -0800 From: alex iles To: craig@acticalc.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <3C71F399.C23AE57E@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig and Co., Actually, I should not addressing Craig, as he appears to be immovable on this subject...;-) At this point of this discussion, I would like to recommend a little book I have recommended to the list in the past which addresses many of the points discussed the last couple of days on jazz and improvisation in general. It is called "The Imperfect Art" by Ted Gioia [Oxford University Press]. Mr. Gioia is a professor of music at Stanford and a pretty good jazz pianist. In this series of essays,the author gives some great observations for non-jazz enthusiasts and jazz musicians alike about the nature of jazz performance. He also offers historical ideas and addresses much of the racial and MUSICAL stereotyping that has gone on with this music since its "inception" [whenever that was?!?!]. Certainly there are self-indulgent improvisors, and yes, there are ways of presenting the music that keeps it from attaining a higher level of artisic significance. The fact is, this music has inspired or at least affected [directly and indirectly] every musician on the planet. It has contributed to ALL the arts... visual media, painting, poetry, literature, photography, dance...jazz has influenced ALL of them, including many composers from the "Western" school . Many schools of art have affected jazz too, but that's probably another discussion. Another thing. Many folks have thrown around this historical significance/time-will-tell argument that jazz cannot compete with the "1400 year history" of western music. A colleague of mine pointed out today [I was discussing this thread with him face to face] , "If they are talking about 'symphonic music' that is most often played today in concert halls, that music is only about 150-200 years old, not 1400!!" which makes the "significant" western music you ususally hear not that much older than the historical "age" of jazz. The playing field may be more even than we all realized! Another thing. This argument about composer/performer/audience thing is a little different with jazz too. One of the traditions carried over from African musical ritual [also common to many other "folk" musics around the world too] is that the composer and the performer are commonly the same person and that the audience traditionally very often is invited to participate directly [sometimes through dancing, clapping or even sitting in!] in the perfomance. There is much less a HIM [composer]...US[the performers]...THEM [audience] trichotomy [is there such a word!?] in jazz music. Those distinctions can get blurred a lot especially in certain situations. With a lot of jazz everyone there is nearlya participant in some way [try going to a smaller venue jazz festival, for instance]. Another thing. Much of the argument that great music needs to be arranged, organized, rehearsed and written down is a little suspicious. After all, what is a great composition BEFORE that Western art music composer wrote it down? It might have been in his/her head, it might have trickled off his/her hands one day while noodling at the piano, it might have dawned on him/her while looking at a painting or watching a play, or while listening to a concert. Is it only great ONCE it is on paper? It starts in the composer's mind/heart/soul/ear, THEN ends up on paper [or some other storage device!!]. It is probably as important before it is actually commited to paper as the final "composition". In jazz, on the other hand, you often witness acts of composition AS THEY HAPPEN. Sure not ALL jazz is that way, nor is it all that musically significant, but neither is Pachabel's Canon ;-) [And that's the BEST he could come up with?...Taking all the time he wanted??!! Geesh!!]. Because of the NATURE of small group jazz [with its emphasis on improvisation which is actually just real time composition], you have an environment where the composition and/or the arrangement can happen RIGHT then, RIGHT there, for better or worse. Not so in most forms of "Western art music". That kind of risk taking and willingness to have no idea WHAT you are going to play [or hear someone else play] until THAT moment is one of the things that makes jazz so different. With the added risk of composing on the spot, there are going to be some imperfections, there will be times when even talented performers rely on a little bit of formulaic playing, there will times when they may self indulge or miss notes. You still might want to keep listening though ... the best stuff they might play can be right after one of these moments!! To sum up...I compare musical tastes to tastes in travel... For some people, the thrill of a vacation is pouring over brochures, writing out itineraries, calling ahead early for every meal and hotel reservation, determining exactly what sights they are going to see. They want to know EXACTLY what to expect when they get there. The thrill is derived from working out every detail ahead of time. For others, it is a plane ticket, a passport, a buddy, a back pack, no maps, and a quest to find the best beer in Scotland. How/when/for how long are questions to be answered after they get home. No method is really better or worse, but I suspect most of us are somewhere in the middle. Some of us aren't. Happy trails, Alex =============================================================== Craig Parmerlee wrote: > At 06:14 PM 2/18/2002 -0600, jalbert@bellsouth.netwrote: > >But my humble suggestion to the jazz > >community is "Enough of the improv already. We get that. Compose some > >great music." > > > >Cents 13 and 14. > >Craig > >=================================================================== > > > >Without the improvisation, is it really still jazz...? > > > >Jeff Albert > > Absolutely. Some of the best jazz compositions have no improv at all. I'm > thinking of some great Thad Jones/Mel Louis pieces. OK, maybe they have a > little noodling along the way, but it certainly isn't the essence of the > composition in every case. > > Jazz has its own tonality, its own phrasing, and voicings that depart from > convention. I'm not saying that improvisation should be totally > eliminated, but improvisation does nothing to help a work become a masterpiece. > > I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I know when I listen > to the jazz program on our university's radio station, you will get 10 of > the tired old "head, jam 10 choruses, head again, and out" tunes before you > get one track that actually represents some compositional thought and > arranging skill. I like this stuff better than rap, but honestly, I don't > think the artists spent any more time preparing than the rap artists do in > these cases. At least with rap, those artists take the time to make their > lines rhyme. > > There are jazz groups that do significant compositions or arrangements, but > those are mostly big bands like McConnell, Wattrous and Ferguson a few > years back, Connick, etc. A local group, the Wallarab/Buselli big band > does some terrific arrangements, and they have scored some of that for > symphony orchestra. I had the pleasure playing a number of these charts > with a local orchestra last year. This material was absolutely worthy of > the concert hall in my judgment. But you rarely hear this type of material > on the "serious jazz" stations. And I see no reason why smaller groups > shouldn't invest a similar effort in the compositional side of things. In > the jazz enclave, there seems to be an institutional bias against > composition. > > Look at the syllabus for any jazz camp. It is all about > improvisation. The people in the jazz establishment act as if > improvisation is the only thing. In my mind, it isn't the only thing at all > -- it isn't even close to being the most important thing These days, > everybody has improv chops. Much ado over nothing, in my opinion. > > Stating a minority opinion, I'm sure, > Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:24:18 -0800 From: "Steve LaRue" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Need Some BassBone Modification Help Message-ID: <002301c1b916$71e5f700$db2a9242@endxokep> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy, I made a Get-a -grip for my horn and it works great. I modified it by putting in a curve to fit my hand better. I used 1/4 inch nylon spacers instead of the 1 inch as shown in the get a grip pictures. I then covered with 1/2 inch interior diam. plastic tubing to make the whole thing smooth. It really works great and makes a huge difference in holding the horn and manipulating the triggers. If you don't want to build one yourself, get a hold of Gary Greenhoe and buy his model. It too is curved and with your small hands will be far more adjustable and more comfortable for you than a straight bar like the one shown on the edwards site. Gary's can be seen on his web site. Hope this helps, Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy-Green -TJ To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: Need Some BassBone Modification Help > Hello, > > A couple of years ago, many of you were very encouraging with me about the > hand/arm/wrist problems I was encountering as I began to play bass bone > again. Several of you sent exercises that were most helpful. I was doing > well, until about 3 months ago. Since then I have had the nerve > conduction tests, and the good news is that I do not have carpal tunnel, > or cubital tunnel (which is the elbow) in my left arm. I went to a > reputable hand doctor in Seattle (recommended by symphony players) and > among other things, he strongly suggested I have some physical > modifications made to the instrument, which I did not have done two years > ago. I am already getting better physically. > > I need some suggestions: which modifications are available (i.e. the > Stegman bar, etc.) and where to purchase them, also any other things that > you all might have done. Or websites that might have some suggestions for > modifications. I have a Yamaha 622 (Doug Yeo's horn) and have tried his > grip, but it was causing nerve problems in my finger, even with a glove > on. I am a woman with only average to small sized hands, and that is the > main problem. I would ESPECIALLY like to hear from other female bass > trombonists to hear what you have done to make your instruments more > comfortable for you. I play bass trombone in the Seattle Women's Jazz > Orchestra (www.swojo.com) and hope very much that I don't have to give up > bass trombone permanently. > > I do have a great brass repair person here in the Seattle area who has > done modifications like this before. It does take him a while, but he > will do good work. > > Thank you and you can e-mail me privately at kgreen@fwsd.wednet.edu or > katerose@aol.com > > Kathy Green, Band Director > Thomas Jefferson High School > > "I've never known a musician who regretted being one. Whatever deceptions > life may have in store for you, music itself is not going to let you down." > Virgil Thomson > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:58:27 -0800 From: Bodie Pfost To: Trombone Mailing List Subject: Recordings (was Re: Atonality) Message-ID: <3C722FD2.58628B6E@humboldt1.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, I wrote: > Has anyone considered that it took jazz less than 150 years > to develop harmonically to the point of atonality, when it > took "classical" music roughly 1400 years to get there? > ...interesting. > > -Bodie > Then, Jeff Albert wrote: > Actually it took jazz less than 75 years to reach that point, but I am > not sure what the point of the statement is. You act like they exist in > vacuums completely isolated from each other. Jazz musicians were > hearing atonal classical music just like everyone else. MUSIC started > to use atonality in the early 20th century, I don't think a > jazz/classical distinction is necessary. Actually that distinction is > not really necessary at all. It is all just music, free to be liked or > disliked. Just because I like Bruckner and don't care for Vivaldi > doesn't mean I have to denigrate all baroque music, or fuel a baroque > versus romantic argument like their merits are mutually exclusive. > > Jeff Albert And Chuck Perron wrote: >This is an excellent question. Would you consider this something to brag >about or something to be ashamed of? > >Chuck Also Richard Human said: >I think it is interesting, and reflective of the manner in which we rush >through everything these days. Drive though windows on everything (funeral >homes), kids having 3 meetings and 2 rehearsals each day (in the 9th grade), >On-line everything (heaven forbid we see another human being)... Quickness >and "what's new now" has superceded quality and depth of knowledge. I'm glad that my question spawned these replies. The post that I originally replied to was "That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing", which seemed to imply that most people WERE trying to make a distinction between jazz and classical music. It may not be necessary, Jeff, but that's what we do here on Trombone-L. Just because a difference is found, doesn't mean that one is better than the other, it just means that there IS a difference. I know, I know.... it's all JUST music (right Jeff?). But if that is so, then what is the reason for this thread? In that case, what is the reason for the Trombone-L? Chuck, the difference in the amount of time it took for jazz and classical music to harmonically reach atonality is not good or bad.... it just is. I think that Richard was right about it reflecting our tendency to do as much as we can in as little time as possible. Also, I think that the reason it took less time for jazz to reach atonality than classical is because jazz music has been influenced by recordings. Not to say that classical music hasn't, but usually classical music composers are influenced by studying compositional styles and scores of other composers. Listen to how little the best recordings, made in the last 25 years, of Mahler's 3rd Symphony differ. Like someone said before, perhaps what made the Utah recording of this piece stand out is that it was made before there were many (any?) other recordings available. Recordings are interesting because they create a standard. Or maybe it's all Remington's fault... no, I won't go there. A lot of people have said how classical music is more or less the same at every performance, but I think that before recording technology came around this was not the case. At least, they were much less similar than they are today. It used to be that the VPO sounded different from the LSO which sounded different from the CSO which sounded different from the NYPO, but what I hear in recent recordings is a kind of funnelling. In jazz music, recordings raised the (harmonic) bar faster than it had been raised in classical music. In 75 years or less, it was Satchmo, then Lester, then Bird, then Trane, then what? (Eric Dolphy) Each one building on what the prior had established. It's still JUST music, and I still love it. (But if I can't talk about it, then what am I doing here?) -Bodie ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:16:02 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: "Sam Burtis" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc Message-ID: <015701c1b937$52426f70$127d68d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sabutin" > (And by "bass" I did not mean "string bass"...I meant any instrument > that plays bass lines in a rhythm section manner...string bass, tuba, > bass sax...whatever works.) Tea chest, Oil drums.... A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:16:10 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <015801c1b937$53d14cd0$127d68d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jon Moeller" > If you take the lyrics out of rap then all you are left with is a 2 > maybe 3 chord progression, and some funky percussion stuff. > > Same goes for jazz and improv 2-3 chord impro? I think jazz has developed a bit further than that over the last century. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:16:17 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? was RE: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <015901c1b937$577575a0$127d68d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jeff Albert" > Without the improvisation, is it really still jazz...? Hmmm, I would say yes. It's unusual, but I feel that a composer can write a jazz chart without space for impro. After all, the composition and arrangement of the chart are themselves improvisation. Would you say that Gershwin's operas, in which every note was written ,were not jazz music? Jazz is a style, or should I say a jambalaya of many styles. Then again, any style of music can be improvised. Johann Sebastian did it with a figured bass (Dead European chord symbols). A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:16:33 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Maynard Ferguson Albums Message-ID: <015a01c1b937$58ed6fa0$127d68d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Carl Webster" > I have the following Maynard Ferguson albums for sale....... > .....Albums have been in storage and not played since 1984. What???!!!! You'd better get playing them before you sell so that M. can get his chops back in shape. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:16:50 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <015b01c1b937$5c3bfe60$127d68d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Douglas Yeo" > I've seen Bill a number of times, have corresponded with > him quite a bit and have been impressed, as was Joe Norcross, at what > an interesting and interested person he is. You guys are lucky. I've met Bill twice and he wouldn't talk to me. Guess I caught him on his off days. The unfortunate encounters haven't changed my admiration of his music tho'. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:54:19 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: 8guion@jmls.edu, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics & rhythm Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F877@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B94C.ED34D440" Interesting comment on rhythms, David.Ê A couple of weeks ago I attended an Innuit drum dancing concert. This is music that may or may not be art, but definitely would have appeal to a fairly small audience, like jazz or classical does, so maybe it's great! The drum beat was just a steady thump with no variation I could detect. They used single headed skin drums, held in one hand and waved around as the sound faded, but the rhythm of striking it was like quarter notes in 4/4 the entire night. (There was improv, too. When they were throatsinging, two people stand nose to nose and the one has to follow the other in real time. That was amazing.)Ê I contrast that to the last drum concert I went to, the Japanese demon drummers, who used incredible complexity of rhythms. By the way, don't miss that one if you have a chance.Ê I couldn't say one was better than the other. I could say the performance of one was, but I won't. The effect on the audience was different. The Japanese drummers left the audience amazed and bewildered, we weren't exactly sure what we'd been part of. The Innuit left part of the audience offended - they were too earthy and challenging, not what was expected. Both stretched and challenged the audience and both would appeal to a niche group only.Ê However, to look for the roots of jazz rhytms in traditional African drumming appears to be another mistake made by overly politically correct white analysts. From what I've read, any attempts to actually find those roots in Africa is a failure. The jazz development in the US came from right here - from a specific subculture, a non-white one, to be sure.Ê -----Original Message----- From: Guion, David [mailto:8guion@jmls.edu] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 10:19 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics At 03:17 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, David Buckley wrote: >sabutin wrote: > > W/proper scheduling and publicity, you would attract audiences of > > the same size as symphony audiences, paying about the same money per > > person. > >I'm not so sure about this. To be totally honest, I have never yet heard >any jazz performance with the complexity and emotional impact of the great >symphonies. Does that mean you only want to listen to the same few pieces >all the time? No of course not. But the simplicity of the jazz from - note >form, not notes - does not offer the same interest by a long shot. If it >did, audiences for jazz would be a whole lot bigger than they are now, >regardless of what orchestras do. We are in danger of getting into a question of "which is better, oranges or pumpkins?" I, for one, don't want to make pies from oranges or juice from pumpkins. Most of the European symphonic (and operatic) tradition comes from a couple of very simple Baroque forms: the binary dance (that is, AB form) and the da capo aria (that is, ABA). Sonata form is an enlarged binary form, made bigger by adding more themes, transitions, and harmonic complexity to each part. The Classical rondo is an ABA form enlarged by adding additional sections of music on to the end. And of course by the time Beethoven did his thing, each of the parts had gotten longer in the same way that his sonata forms enlarged on the Baroque dances. Classical composers tried to pour as wide an array of emotional contrasts into a few simple forms as they could. Romantic composers often dispensed with the standard forms, but went for an even more powerful emotional punch in the structures they devised. Jazz does not come out of that tradition. Leaving aside the instances where jazz and the symphonic tradition have influenced each other, jazz has its roots in African music and American popular music of the nineteenth century--marches, hymns, songs, and what not. I doubt if there is very much of that popular music that anyone but scholars cares anything about any more. (Surely there is some, but a lot of it has just vanished.) The most important differences between jazz and any kind of European music comes from the African side. I once taught a world music course. One of the pieces of African drumming that was discussed in the textbook was more than a hundred-fold repitition of a melody that was about 10 seconds long. It was simple repeated over and over again without any intentional variation. Other pieces repeated the same short call and response pattern over and over, but with improvisation. Much of jazz consists of improvisation over a harmonic pattern that is certainly longer than any of the African "tunes" on the one record set that I have, but shorter than most of the Baroque dance tunes from whence sonata form came. Up until minimalism, which probably has African roots itself, nothing in any European/North American tradition has been built on repitition like the blues or jazz are. Eighty years ago or so, Aaron Copland figured that he could develop a genuinely American orchestral idiom by using jazz as the basis for his style. He gave it up because he found it too limiting There were areas of emotional expression that he found that he could not go with jazz and had to use other means to get there. Since then, jazz has moved away from popular music to become an art music on its own. Both jazz and "classical" music are dealing with the consequences of having a small audience in a time of mass culture. Both types of music need to reach out to expand the audience. Can they collaborate, or would they be better off going their separate ways. Could someone like Copland use jazz to express a suitably wide range of emotion in orchestral music now? Or is it still oranges and pumpkins? ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:32:07 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F878@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B952.3570B440" Then in the long run he is a counterproductive example. I would suggest not even publicizing it except I am opposed to censorship in any form.Ê The reason I say that, is that he to a small extent is part of a theme that most of us who have worked in drug rehabilitation have seen over and over: The talented person who ends up in trouble with drugs, is nearly ruined, but kicks them and gets his life together. This is great, and I am happy for them, the trouble is it sets a bad example.Ê That's because the message kids hear when they see any successful person who just kicked drugs talk is not, "don't do drugs." It is, "I got off drugs and you can too." Unfortunately for most people that is a lie, a lie that encourages them to experiment. When I say most, I mean in excess of 90%. People actually able to quit using drugs after becoming addicted are less than 10%. For some drugs in some studies, more like 2%. That is despite the efforts of the best treatment programs. It may be that most people can lose weight, most people can control their diabetes, most people can get their blood pressure down, their cholesterol, etc. However what is hardly ever said out loud, but is known by anybody in the drug rehab industry, is that most people CANNOT get off drugs. Period. Most people cannot quit smoking, by the way.Ê I'm glad Bill was one of the lucky few, and I'm sure it didn't come easy. For most it's not going to come at all.Ê Ê -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Yeo [mailto:yeo@yeodoug.com] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:20 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Bill Watrous Joe. L. Norcross wrote: >Just got back from the California Band Directors Association Annual >Conference. The Special guest for a clinic and concert was Bill Watrous. >What a player, but also a fine gentleman. Had a great conversation with >him about music, not just jazz. Ask him about Elgar's 3rd. Symphony. >He is a great fan of all types and plays and listens to a lot ofclassical >music. A real gentleman Then Dan Maslowski wrote: >I find this particularly interesting. I really like Bill Watrous' stuff >and have been told the opposite in the past. I've always been told he's >not a good "example" to set after since because of past drug >instances...it seems that people don't know what they are talking about >so it's nice to see that his music (which I absolutely LOVE) reflects >his persona. Indeed. Bill had many hard living years, but they seem to be long behind him. I've seen Bill a number of times, have corresponded with him quite a bit and have been impressed, as was Joe Norcross, at what an interesting and interested person he is. A true lover of classical music, and quite well read on composers, composition, etc. I recall a correspondence we had a year ago in which he waxed in detail, eloquently and movingly about Handel's "Messiah." At a clinic I attended a couple of years ago, he played the Barber "Adagio for Strings" on his trombone using multiphonics. I thought I was listening to an orchestra, it was the most accomplished multiphonic presentation I had ever heard. I've seen him be nothing but a gracious gentleman when working with students in clinics, and I count some of my contacts with him to have been quite enlightening to me personally and be moments which I treasure. It's nice to know that some people who do go through hard times sometimes have defining moments and encounters which cause them to re-evaluate their life and resolve to follow a different path. So is the case with Bill Watrous. We're all the richer for it - he is a fine role model and gentleman. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:40:18 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: slide.rule@adios.co.uk, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Gershwin according to Slatkin. Message-ID: <14f.9299821.29a3bdd2@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have vinyl set with St.Louis Symphony by Slatkin, covering a great deal of Gershwin's work. It says in the paperwork that the orchestrations may have been written but a bunch of the piano work in some of the pieces were not written down until after their premier.. Which gives latitude for improv. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:45:47 -0500 From: "Todd Holmberg" To: Message-ID: <010901c1b954$1ed12920$ec94fea9@programdir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SUMMER JOBS FOR COLLEGE TROMBONE PLAYERS! Founded in 1966 and located in the Manistee National Forest of Michigan, Blue Lake Fine Arts Camp is a summer community of the fine arts. Each summer Blue Lake serves nearly 4,600 junior high and high school students, who major in music, art, dance, and drama. 175 staff positions are available for college musicians with interest and aptitude in working with young people. Spend your summer making a difference! OPPORTUNITIES INCLUDE: ¢ Chamber Ensembles ¢ Recitals ¢ Staff Solo Competition ¢ Private Lessons ¢ Festival Band ¢ Staff Band ¢ Jazz Ensembles ¢ Teaching Sectionals & Technique Classes with Junior Campers ¢ Gaining valuable experience in leadership and working with youth STAFF POSITIONS: June 16 - August 18, salary $1,100 And Up (based on experience) plus room, board, and extensive performing & educational opportunities. Staff duties include living with and supervising 10 - 12 campers, assisting with recreational and social activities, work 15 - 20 hours a week at a specific assignment (performing ensembles for musicians), and consistently acting on all campers' needs. A SUMMER FULL OF EXPERIENCE! Instrumentalists have the opportunity to perform with faculty in the Blue Lake Festival Orchestra, Band, or chamber ensembles as part of their work assignment. A staff solo competition offers performers an opportunity to solo with the Festival Orchestra as part of Blue Lake's Season Finale. Teaching positions with junior campers are also available for those who qualify. Placement based on audition cassette. SOLO COMPETITION: Compete for an opportunity to solo with the Blue Lake Festival Orchestra! Only Blue Lake staff members are eligible. Call 800-221-3796 for more information on how you can participate. FOR APPLICATION AND MORE INFORMATION: Blue Lake Fine Arts Camp 300 East Crystal Lake Road Twin Lake, MI 49457 1.800.221-3796 www.bluelake.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:57:57 -0600 From: Carl Webster To: carlwebster@sbcglobal.net Cc: tubaeuph@yahoogroups.com, tbonecentral@yahoogroups.com, TROMBONE-L@po.MISSOURI.EDU, tpo-list@yahoogroups.com, Subject: Misc. albums for sale Message-ID: <002501c1b955$d44fe8d0$6401a8c0@xppro> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have the following miscellaneous albums for sale.Ê Thought I would offer them to the list first before putting them up on eBay.Ê Make an offer.Ê Payment via PayPal, cashiers check, USPS Money Order or personal check (after waiting for it to clear the bank). The Directors Band - 7" - Bill Bell, Arnold Jacobs & Harvey Phillips: side 1 Bill Bell, The Elephant's Tango; side 2 Moto Perpetuo unison trio The John Phillip Sousa Band in Concert - 40 All Time Favorites: 3 albums with recordings from 1900 through 1923 Dirty Dozen Brass Band - My Feet Can't Fail Me Now (their first album, 1984) Woody Herman - Road Father: Direct-to-Disc recording (1978) Eastman Jazz Ensemble - Live!: (1976) Al Vizzutti as a student! Buddy Rich - Class of '78: Direct-to-Disc (1977) Best arrangement/recording of Birdland ever LA Philharmonic, Leopold Stokowski - no date on album or cover Zdzislaw Piernik - Virtuoso Tuba Ve Iss Da Mighty Tubadours Ya? (1978) Floyd Cooley, Tuba (1983) Barton Cummings - On Tuba (1978) Daniel Perantoni - Sterling Brass (1978) Taj Mahal - The Real Thing, 2 album set (no dates on albums or cover) John Fletcher's recording of the Vaughn Williams Tuba Concerto with The London Symphony (1972) Arnold Jacob's recording of the Vaughn Williams Tuba Concerto with the CSO (1977) 3 Adventures in Music: Tubby the Tuba, Adventures of a Zoo & The Story of Celeste; Narrated by Paul "Mr. I Magination" Tripp, Stuttgart Symphony Orchestra (1957) WARNING: Album and Cover in not so good shape Blood Sweat & Tears - Musically Speaking (1972, 1973, 1975, 1982) Blood Sweat & Tears - Brand New Day (1977) Rosie O'Grady's Good Time Jazz Band Direct-to-Disc (1977) Serial Number 17334 Philip Jones Ensemble - Stars & Stripes Forever (1984) The Horn Club of Los Angeles - Music for Horns (no date on album or cover) The Art of Dennis Brain (no date on album or cover) The Art of Dennis Brain Vol. 2 (no date on album or cover) Dennis Brain - Richard Strauss Horn Concertos (no date on album or cover) Dennis Brain - Mozart Horn Concertos (no date on album or cover) The Goldman Band - Golden March Favorites (no date on album or cover) The London Symphonic Band - Bach for Band (1972) The United States Marine Band Lt. Col. Albert F. Schoepper, Director (1964) Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Fritz Reiner - Pictures at an Exhibition (Bob Lambert plays Bydlo) (1958) I will sell individual albums, groups and, of course, the whole thing. To offer a beginning price point, the average bid price for all the different albums I have been offering for sale is $10. This is $9 per album plus $1 for shipping for $10 per album. I double bubble wrap each album, insure the package and ship via UPS so you can track it. Ê Albums have been in storage and not played since 1984. Ê Webster ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:41:39 -0500 From: "HICKS, JIM D" To: "'Craig Parmerlee'" , trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <97248F13771FD31184690008C75DEBDA05D911D8@cin-ex-w-4.dfas.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "...Gee, that seems to be an argument for just the opposite. After all, classical is the only music that does *NOT* and cannot pay its own way. There isn't a single large company that would be alive today if it weren't for a big endowment, a steady stream of government grants and large gifts from philanthropists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting that commercial revenues (i.e. box office + merchandising) pays for less than 50% of the operation industry-wide..." Craig; I was told by the principle bonist for our local symphony that the ISO receives less than 1/3 of it's operating costs from ticket sales, and 2/3 of those costs from it's HUGH endowment for the drug industry (Lilly not Guido and his pals). Jim Hicks ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:47:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: Douglas Yeo Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: New resource added on Yeo website Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Douglas Yeo wrote: > This new resource, titled "Daniel Chester French: Sculptures In > Situ" (with images of five sculptures at the moment - it will grow as > I revisit and locate others), is listed on my home page > (www.yeodoug.com) or you can reach it directly at: > > http://www.yeodoug.com/daniel_chester_french.html There are some nice smaller works at the Smithsonian's Museum of American Art (attached to the National Portrait Gallery). One of my favorite small museums, never a major tourist attraction as it's some blocks off the mall. Also, as with indulging in totally wicked desserts now and then, one needs to go wallow in the Hudson River Valley School, and the Museum of American Art has a whole gallery of it. The SI has a goodly bit of representations of artwork, at least, in digital form for searching online now. I tried "trombone" for a keyword, found a few items and found that the SI catalogers are a bit confused about what a "French Horn" might be... Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:01:20 From: "posaune rex" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: STS webpage back up!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello, after a few months and a move across the country, my webpage is back up and running. haven't updated it yet, but it's still at the same address it was before: http://remember.to/practice . Thank you so much to everyone who kept sending me emails telling me how much you missed my site! I'm glad I was finally able to resurrect it. For those of you not familiar with my web page, its content includes: TROMBONE NEWS: what's new in the trombone world; includes upcoming auditions and competitions, audition/competition winners, and more AUDITION LISTS: repertoire lists from actual professional symphony auditions, with statistics and graphs (thanks to Doug Yeo, Doc Marcellus, and others) ORCHESTRA SECTION HISTORIES: history of members of major symphony orchestras... wondering who played bass bone in Boston in 1883? LINKS: to trombone competitions, associations, directories, performers, manufacturers, symphonies, conservatories, festivals, brass ensembles, catalogs, other BONEBOOKS: compare prices of trombone related books between Amazon, Youffers, Barnes and Noble, and Hickeys CONTACT INFO: contact information for professional symphonic performers, soloists, teachers, technicians, other SERIAL NUMBERS: information for dating Bach or Conn trombones DOWNLOADS: (up soon) images, finale files, programs, midis, misc There's still a lot I'd like to re-do, but for now at least it's up. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed working on it! best, stacy werblin swerblin@hotmail.com http://remember.to/practice _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:09:50 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Airtime: was Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E71249FB@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Craig Parmerlee wrote: > Where I live, these innovators get almost no airplay. What makes it on > the > jazz programs is the conventional "jam to a groove" stuff. My personal > opinion is that most of that music will continue to be enjoyed by a small > fraction of the population. > Now, that's another problem, isn't it. I would guess that most "classical" music stations play a lot of music composed between about 1720 and 1880 and not much on either side of it. Bruckner and Mahler are too far out--not for the audience but for the management that seems to have bought into the notion that Classical music is soothing and relaxing, never challenging. This situation gives rise to a number of pernicious stereotypes: Classical music is soothing and relaxing, and all by long dead white men. After all, music by dead women, dead black men, or living composers of whatever race, sex, or nationality are heard only on the most exceptional of stations. Jazz, according to Craig's radio station, is a bunch of people noodling around a song that's barely recognizable as the noodling goes on. After a while, everyone's licks begin to sound the same. It, too, must be soothing and relaxing and never challenging. After all, anything that really makes someone sit up and listen is heard only on the most exceptional of stations. Pop music in its various guises is alive and vibrant. After all, the tunes at the top of the charts are not the same ones all the time and radio stations are constantly playing new things. If anything is challenging--not artistically, but in the sense of politically or morally offensive--it has a First Amendment right to drive everything else off the airwaves. After all, if anyone chooses not to play whatever is being hyped the most on any kind of artistic or moral grounds is guilty of (gasp) censorship. I really agree with Sam Burtis on one point he has recently made: > I am a passionately "American" person. I believe this noble > experiment in democracy and capitalism, flawed though it is and has > been, is the best hope for the continued growth and evolution of > mankind. I really do...and yet the unchecked power of greed, be it > evinced by industrial monopolists like Carnegie + Rockefeller or > monopolistic cultural entities like Time/Warner, must be opposed and > at least MODIFIED by effective government, be it the trust-busting > legislation of the early 20th century or cultural support of valid > arts that are perhaps not so profitable as Snoop Doggy Dogg or Puff > Daddy. (Or Brittany Spears or Mariah Carey or...fill in the blanks.) > We used to have two classical music stations in Chicago. One was privately owned, and the owners wanted to retire. The only buyer they could find was one of those big conglomerates, who promptly decreed that Chicago did not need two classical stations. They are making their money with a product that plays the same music as most of the rest of the radio stations around here. The joke that someone with no knowledge of music and no talent is thereby likely to be a commercial success is now more than 100 years old. (I found it in an 1893 newspaper. It may have been around longer than that, and has been stated ever since either humorously or seriously.) Corporate culture has determined that a mass audience doesn't know good from bad. Bad is easier to mass produce. People will get tired of this or that song eventually, but will probably like a new one of the same sort for a while. It wasn't so pernicious when sheet music became a million-dollar industry. The corporations were small and numerous, and there was still plenty of room for music that appealed to a smaller audience (including but not limited to audiences with more educated and refined taste.) But now, where do you get away from Time-Warner and its ilk? Those corporations are not only determining what we can hear on the radio, but what records can be made, and what selection of those records will actually be available in stores. This thread started with consideration of the various merits of "classical" music and jazz. They come from very different traditions and social settings. In a sense, they have to be judged on different criteria. But the fact is that they both appeal to niche audiences, and the conglomerates, not knowing how to make money off of them, are, deliberately or not, working against expanding those audiences by preventing the wider public from coming into contact with anything outside a narrow slice of what those niche musics are really about. So maybe we should just stop taking umbrage at each other's tastes and expression of viewpoints and try to find out how to take control of our niches. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:17:22 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Enough of the Improv ? Message-ID: <11b.bf6b485.29a3d492@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/19/2002 12:05:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: > The point I am trying to make is that performance-centric music will never > produce classic works, which was the problem this whole thread began > with. It is composition, not performance, that enables music to survive > the test of time. ============ As cheerfully as I can get myself to say it, this thread is becoming tiresome. Everyone has made some intelligent, relevant points. But we aren't going to settle it. Despite giving us some good ammunition to shoot him down with, Craig isn't going to budge on this, and I admire him for that. I do have to say this though, with regard to the snip above: I happen to believe that jazz is a classic art form that is primarily transmitted from the artist(s) to an appreciative audience via the ears and eyes, and transferred from one artist to another, and thus from generation to generation, by study and performance. If being printed on paper, stored on library shelves, and stacked in piles on piano tops is a criteria for "classic," then the classics have been a little diminished in my view. Without performance, for an appreciative audience, there would be no classics. It's not a classic until you pull it off the shelf, or out of your musical soul, play it, and get a reaction from those for whom it was intended - an audience. Mike Alford not a pro, just an appreciator of music - - many kinds of music ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2305--