TROMBONE-L Digest 2302 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Moran, Doug - Denison" 2) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by sabutin 3) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by sabutin 4) Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by "Dan Traugh" 5) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by Listmonitor Trombone-L 6) Favorite Solo (was Mahler 3) by "Johnson, Scott (TBS)" 7) Utah and Sym 3 by chris@iris.washington.edu 8) conn director-elliot sbKcup etc for sale by "Charles Levine" 9) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by Atlbrvsnt@aol.com 10) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by David Buckley 11) Lindberg/Trudel - Canada embraces the trombone by "Thomas Smee" 12) flat Bach 50 by "R.A. Bates" 13) Re: Mahler 3 [utah] by T2PHXS@aol.com 14) RE: Mahler 3 [utah] by "Dale J. Cruse" 15) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by Earl Needham 16) RE: flat Bach 50 by "Thomas Smee" 17) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by "Bodie Pfost" 18) Conn for sale by "Jayson Rowe" 19) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by Bruce Guttman 20) leaky Thayers? by "R.A. Bates" 21) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by sabutin 22) Re: flat Bach 50 by Craig Parmerlee 23) HTML/Trombone-L Guidelines (was Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!) by Listmonitor Trombone-L 24) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by Bruce Guttman 25) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by ALFORDMB@aol.com 26) RE: HTML/Trombone-L Guidelines (was Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!) by "Gary Maxwell" 27) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Craig Parmerlee 28) RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Steve Gamble 29) Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Jeff Albert" 30) Re: flat Bach 50 by Tony 31) Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so by "Tom C. Shaddox" 32) We are coming back! by Tony 33) Mahler 3 by "Ben van Dijk" 34) RE: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by "Jon Moeller" 35) Re: HTML/Trombone-L Guidelines (was Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!) by "keith.marr" 36) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Craig Parmerlee 37) RE: Mahler 3 [utah] (what joe likes...) by "Michael Clayville" 38) Janacek Sinfonietta parts? by "posaune rex" 39) Re: flat Bach 50 by Craig Parmerlee 40) Re: flat Bach 50 by Joestanko@aol.com 41) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by ALFORDMB@aol.com 42) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Craig Parmerlee 43) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by "Trombone-L Monitor" 44) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "John McVey" 45) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Craig Parmerlee 46) Re: flat Bach 50 by "Dean McCarty" 47) Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 48) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Gabriel Langfur 49) Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by ALFORDMB@aol.com 50) No Fennell after all by David Oliver 51) by Tony 52) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Gabriel Langfur 53) Cynical and Full time RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Jeff Albert" 54) Re: flat Bach 50 by Gabriel Langfur 55) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by sabutin 56) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Gabriel Langfur 57) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Gabriel Langfur 58) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Robert Holland ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:25:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Moran, Doug - Denison" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Gabriel Langfur wrote: > I don't see any reason a jazz orchestra couldn't operate > the same way a small-medium sized chamber music ensemble > does - non-profit, raising money, producing its own > concerts. This is going on in the US - at least in Columbus, OH and Cleveland, OH. Check out http://www.columbusjazzorchestra.com/ No players are employed full time, and these folks have been at it almost 30 years. But I think a small staff is full time. They are very good at marketing their product, and their audience remains strong. No tie to the local symphony though. But they do have a collective bargaining agreement with the AFM for the players. There has to be other instances of this. How about the RIAS Big Band that Jiggs Whigham directs in Europe? Government supported or non-profit, self suporting? (The arts are treated very differently from country to country.) > And then you wouldn't have to answer to a symphony Board > and management... Yeah, but then you get your own board and management - both hopefully good. :-) Doug ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:32:38 -0500 From: sabutin To: glangfur@yahoo.com Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sam, a lot of thought-provoking ideas here...There are a lot of reasons symphony orchestras don't really "do" jazz, though, not least of which are involved with union-related personnel contract issues. One of my orchestras, the Rhode Island Philharmonic, does a benefit event every year that invloves bringing in Bill Holman and his reed section buddies and doing a bunch of his big band + orchestra arrangements. Good, workable arrangements, but they usually sound sort of, well, bad. Not because we don't have good players, but because we don't have the freedom to hire players who REALLY know how to play those charts. They usually hire a lead trumpet player, but the trombone section is an orchestral section, and always sounds too heavy. That's really besides the point however. I would argue that orchestras can't be everything. Arts organizations in general should, IMO, do what they do well, and leave the things that are clearly outside of their specialty to someone else. I don't think you are suggesting that symphony orchestras should fire all their players and start over with a big band instrumentation - we all know that would never happen. Maybe something along the lines of LCJO would be feasible, but that's not part of the NY Phil organization, it's part of the Lincoln Center organization. I would suspect that the union would step in if the NY Phil tried to start another group, out of the fear that they would eventually cut back orchestral activities severely. Besides, the orchestra's non-profit status is tied to a specific mission statement. Jazz groups have rarely, if ever, operated under non-profit status. I have no idea why...there's really no reason not to. Classical chamber music groups of all sizes do it all the time. =========== I wasn't suggesting that symphony orchestras go into the jazz business as performers, If i NEVER hear another symphony orchestra mangle a jazz phrase it will be too soon. Nor am I really suggesting that the orchestras set up little "Orchestra Juniors" to play jazz. I know that officially symphony orchestras are independent entities, but we both know the the arts funding scene is VERY small, VERY professional and VERY interrelated, and that "Lincoln Center" and "The NY Philharmonic", for example, are just two sides of one very incestuous family. I would gladly start a nonprofit corporation to do just what you suggest, and have looked into the possibilities over the past few years. Here's what I have come up with. Being a trombonist is a full time occupation. Being a composer is a full time occupation. Being a teacher is a full time occupation. Writing books is a full time occupation. Being a music director is a full time occupation. Arts management and administration...private OR public sector...is a full time occupation. Of those 6 full time occupations, I do the first 4 now. The 5th, music director, is what I WILL be doing if I can ever get one of these ensembles off the ground. The 6th is a very "position specific" job. You can't start at the bottom and get very far rapidly. That (and my own personal occasional proclivity for rash, non-diplomatic statements when confronted w/fools) effectively eliminates me from doing that work, and it also eliminates most of the many, many people wandering around the fringes of the establishment arts system w/their master's degrees in arts administration in their hands, begging for a way inside. This kind of project needs people who are IN PLACE. People w/big telephone books full of money connections, people who know the game and play it well. Thus the idea of piggybacking off of an established musical arts system, no matter whether you call it "National Symphony" or "Kennedy Center", "NY Philharmonic" or "Lincoln Center". It's all the same couple of hundred people, really...very much like the Boards of major corporations, only smaller. Millions instead of billions..;.but the same system. =========== Imagine, a Jazz Orchestra operated as a non-profit. You would be able to raise money in all kinds of ways - individuals, government and foundation grants...there's all kinds of grant money available for American music, and I think many of the grantmakers would jump on board, if only because there are so few people doing it in that way. Chamber Music America already offers the same kind of support to jazz groups as it does for classical ensembles. The culture of jazz music and musicians just hasn't looked as seriously at that way of operating as classical ensembles have. Sam, you often lament the lack of support for jazz and other non-classical idioms, as a statement of perceived cultural worth and even racism. While I think there is some truth to what you say, the people with the money are mostly too busy to go looking for worthy causes...classical ensembles are not being funded because grantmakers are going to every concert they can and writing checks - they are being funded because they put a lot of energy into ASKING for money, writing grant proposals, fundraising letters to individual, government grant applications. The first step is the non-profit status, which is not all that hard to get. Hours and hours of paperwork and a couple of thousand dollars to a lawyer is pretty much all it takes. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not rocket science & just takes the determination to get it done. I don't see any reason a jazz orchestra couldn't operate the same way a small-medium sized chamber music ensemble does - non-profit, raising money, producing its own concerts. And then you wouldn't have to answer to a symphony Board and management... Gabe ================= Size. Gabe...size and available time. There are any NUMBER of non-profit jazz bands out there. (No snickers, please...) Some are very GOOD (Vanguard Band), but woefully unconnected. No administrators, just musicians w/not much talent or experience in that department and very little time. Some are better connected, but still not so well placed that they can attract the major players and composers that would make them a world class ensemble. Gotta go to the top of the mountain here, or at least NEAR the top...only way I can see... Later... S. P.S. Speaking of non-profit...did you hear the one about the jazz player who won the lottery? When asked what he was going to do w/all his millions, he said "Oh, I don't know...I guess I'll just keep playing until it all runs out..." Hmmmmmmm..... ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:38:35 -0500 From: sabutin To: morand@denison.edu Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Gabriel Langfur wrote: I don't see any reason a jazz orchestra couldn't operate the same way a small-medium sized chamber music ensemble does - non-profit, raising money, producing its own concerts. This is going on in the US - at least in Columbus, OH and Cleveland, OH. Check out http://www.columbusjazzorchestra.com/ No players are employed full time, and these folks have been at it almost 30 years. =================== 30 years. Exactly my point. On this level...and I'm not putting these folks down here...there is no full time work. W/out full time work, you get semi-amateur night. Can't get serious players that way. ============================ But I think a small staff is full time. They are very good at marketing their product, and their audience remains strong. No tie to the local symphony though. But they do have a collective bargaining agreement with the AFM for the players. There has to be other instances of this. How about the RIAS Big Band that Jiggs Whigham directs in Europe? Government supported or non-profit, self suporting? (The arts are treated very differently from country to country.) ============ Government. Ain't gonna happen here...bet on it. ================ And then you wouldn't have to answer to a symphony Board and management... Yeah, but then you get your own board and management - both hopefully good. :-) Doug =========== Not likely good ENOUGH, though. "Money talks, nobody walks" goes for talent in ANY field. Including administrators. Later... Sam ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:44:04 -0500 From: "Dan Traugh" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I loved this list in the past (years ago when it was young). I ended up logging off, then on again, then off.... and so on. I can't handle all of the individual messages so I subscribed digest this time. You guys are killing those of us that don't use a browser to read our email. PLEASE turn off your html formatting. There is no need to post with html. You wouldn't believe all of the trash code you have to wade through just to read a message. It is somewhat akin to reading 10 lines of (&^*N DHO{PIBNF*IB Y TGBIOESHOQ@TVB G:OCU J}{}{}::<:> :"""{}{>{((&()XGPWIQYDTBPNEISUYNODGHDLNWIJHNFIUGR I {}}{}><><{:{:+_)_)*&*{>"<::{O( OU HD OUWH ODH)+_*&^*798/6*98 5459898772446877*^^&*^$E#&%$DWEDVYITHFGULGHN(PB*&RI&YFBGOILUGIL for every line of text. AAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:04:15 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Dan_Traugh@fcasd.edu, Trombone-L Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I must offer my input on this. The standard for ALL e-mail discussion groups is plain-text messaging. If you are using the latest version of Microsoft Outlook Express, you can configure the list's address (trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu) with "Sent plain-text e-mail only". The predominant problem with requesting HTML-only is that some services (or more pointedly, America Online) make it very nearly impossible to set your e-mail client to send plain text. If you are capable of sending plain text, please do so. LM I loved this list in the past (years ago when it was young). I ended up logging off, then on again, then off.... and so on. I can't handle all of the individual messages so I subscribed digest this time. You guys are killing those of us that don't use a browser to read our email. PLEASE turn off your html formatting. There is no need to post with html. You wouldn't believe all of the trash code you have to wade through just to read a message. It is somewhat akin to reading 10 lines of (&^*N DHO{PIBNF*IB Y TGBIOESHOQ@TVB G:OCU J}{}{}::<:> :"""{}{>{((&()XGPWIQYDTBPNEISUYNODGHDLNWIJHNFIUGR I {}}{}><><{:{:+_)_)*&*{>"<::{O( OU HD OUWH ODH)+_*&^*798/6*98 5459898772446877*^^&*^$E#&%$DWEDVYITHFGULGHN(PB*&RI&YFBGOILUGIL for every line of text. AAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! -- --------------------------------------- trombone-l digest archives and useful trombone-l information are available at http://www.trombone.org/trombone-l ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:05:32 -0500 From: "Johnson, Scott (TBS)" To: "'yeo@yeodoug.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Favorite Solo (was Mahler 3) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B653.BD9E8D30" Trombone enthusiasts - (Doug Yeo wrote...) "My favorite Mahler 3 trombone solo? It's the one in my head. You can't buy it, and I can't play it, but I know how it goes." What marvelous instruction! After continually taking lessons and practicing for the past 4 years or so, I'm still striving to get my sound concept "It's the one in my head"; I know that "You can't buy it, and I can't play it" and maybe never will; and I really want to "...know how it goes." This is a great lesson all by itself. Thanks for sharing this with the list, Doug. Best regards, Scott Johnson Conyers, GA USA -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Yeo [mailto:yeo@yeodoug.com] Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 9:51 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Mahler Symphony No.3 While it's always fun to talk about our favorite recordings, this thread has focused on a single aspect - the Mahler 3 trombone solo. Only one person has mentioned that there is a whole piece to be enjoyed. There is no "best" playing of the Mahler 3 solo. Just many performances which speak to different people. Different listeners can find much to admire or dislike in ANY Mahler 3 performance. If you ever want to put a stick in a hornet's nest, check out the Mahler-l: http://listserv.uh.edu/archives/mahler-list.html Strong opinions about every aspect of Mahler, including recordings. A lot of good stuff, a lot of hooey. A lot of informed people posting messages, a lot of "self-proclaimed experts." In the end, you like what you like for the reasons you have. I have 12 Mahler 3 recordings. I didn't buy them for the trombone solo. I bought them because I thought the performances add something to my understanding of the piece. All do that. Some add a little, some add a lot, some are dreadful and help reinforce for me what NOT to do. But I learn from all of them. My favorite Mahler 3 trombone solo? It's the one in my head. You can't buy it, and I can't play it, but I know how it goes. I will say, though, that the recording I've heard which closest approximates the way I hear the solo (by far) - and one in which the whole performance adds up to something of real drama and poetry - is a live performance by the Vancouver Symphony in 1995 under Sergiu Comissiona. Gordon Cherry is playing the trombone solo. You can't buy it - it was taped off the air. What? Comissiona? Vancouver? Gordon Cherry? I thought the greatest Mahler conductor was Horenstein! The best Mahler orchestra was the Vienna Philharmonic! The best trombone solo was by Joe Alessi! Surprise! -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:22:38 -0800 (PST) From: chris@iris.washington.edu To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Utah and Sym 3 Message-ID: <200202151922.LAA07063@seiche.iris.washington.edu> Thanks to Mike Brown to meantion the Utah's recording. There is also an 8th sym available. I found them both rather easily at a used record shop. There were other copies as well. About a buck. Perfect condition too. I do feel that the recording was not the best, it didn't show the tbone sound in the best light. Don't you find this is true for large bore tenors particularily? They just don't record well, especially LPs. This is why all Mahler 3 in particular sound not so good to my ear. You have to hear it live. An obvious point. Even CDs just don't cut it. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:42:21 -0600 From: "Charles Levine" To: "tlist" Subject: conn director-elliot sbKcup etc for sale Message-ID: <001401c1b658$e394ed90$bbb01ad1@D7493111> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1B626.97FB3600" conn director - about 40 years old- looks bad- plays great- shabby case- $125 ppd Elliot SB K cup J4 shank K9c shank all like new $11 each all 3 for $26 ppd Holton TR181 perfect shape $1200 ppd ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:02:01 EST From: Atlbrvsnt@aol.com To: Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: <2d.188eda85.299ec33a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If this message comes as plain text, then I have indeed figured out how to send plain text messages from AOL. What I did: I accessed my email from the aol.com website in order to send this, rather than from the AOL program itself. You can even do this by going to www.aol.com in the AOL program. Just go to your email on the website and it sends as plain text. That is, I think it does. If this email is plain text, then I'm right, because I'm using the aforementioned method to send it. -Tommy Cox University of Alabama In a message dated Fri, 15 Feb 2002 2:05:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Listmonitor Trombone-L writes: > I must offer my input on this. The standard for ALL e-mail > discussion groups is plain-text messaging. If you are using the > latest version of Microsoft Outlook Express, you can configure the > list's address (trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu) with "Sent plain-text > e-mail only". > > The predominant problem with requesting HTML-only is that some > services (or more pointedly, America Online) make it very nearly > impossible to set your e-mail client to send plain text. > > If you are capable of sending plain text, please do so. > > LM > > >I loved this list in the past (years ago when it was young). I ended up > >logging off, then on again, then off.... > >and so on. > > > >I can't handle all of the individual messages so I subscribed digest this > >time. > > > >You guys are killing those of us that don't use a browser to read our > >email. > >PLEASE turn off your html formatting. There is no need to post with html. > > > >You wouldn't believe all of the trash code you have to wade through just > >to read a message. > > > >It is somewhat akin to reading 10 lines of > > > >(&^*N DHO{PIBNF*IB Y TGBIOESHOQ@TVB G:OCU J}{}{}::<:> > >:"""{}{>{((&()XGPWIQYDTBPNEISUYNODGHDLNWIJHNFIUGR I > >{}}{}><> >UHD{}{}{}{}<{:{:+_)_)*&*{>"<::{O( OU HD OUWH ODH)+_*&^*798/6*98 > >5459898772446877*^^&*^$E#&%$DWEDVYITHFGULGHN(PB*&RI&YFBGOILUGIL > > > >for every line of text. AAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! > > > -- > --------------------------------------- > trombone-l digest archives and useful > trombone-l information are available > at http://www.trombone.org/trombone-l ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:17:07 -0500 From: David Buckley To: sabutin@mindspring.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <3C6D6CC3.4DAB1FE2@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A most interesting post Sam, some of which is right on the money, some of which seems to be to in some other world. Let me put some personal comments where they fit in. sabutin wrote: > Thanks Gabe for all this information. > > If the Symphony Orchestra system wants to survive and continue to > grow, one thing they all might consider is their real function. > > They are ostensibly about the performance of great Western > European style symphonic music...but if they were to simply do that > and nothing else, they would not survive financially. Thus they > produce Pops concerts, children's concerts, etc.; they wind up > supporting educational efforts up to and including conservatories, > and they often are the basis for whole performing arts centers. > > One facet of this generally healthy attempt to preserve, perform > and promote great music that MANY of the symphony orchestras are > entirely missing is the American jazz idiom. Wynton Marsalis and > Lincoln Center have proven that this can be a financially viable > effort (although to my ears they have done so in a largely inferior > way musically, relying on a cult of personality and a largely > mediocre ensemble and repertoire instead of going for the gold of > great music performed at the highest level by the best musicians > available). I'm glad I am not the only one who feels this way about this ensemble but the "cult of personality" certainly gets the attention of audiences. > > > Do the math, American large "jazz" ensemble vs. symphony orchestra. > > Roughly 20 musicians vs. about 100. Right there you save an > enormous amount in salaries, touring, recording and music copying > expenses, and administrative staff. At LEAST 1/5th of the cost of a > symphony orchestra, right down the line. Probably less...less pork > barreling possible w/a leaner system. > > W/proper scheduling and publicity, you would attract audiences of > the same size as symphony audiences, paying about the same money per > person. I'm not so sure about this. To be totally honest, I have never yet heard any jazz performance with the complexity and emotional impact of the great symphonies. Does that mean you only want to listen to the same few pieces all the time? No of course not. But the simplicity of the jazz from - note form, not notes - does not offer the same interest by a long shot. If it did, audiences for jazz would be a whole lot bigger than they are now, regardless of what orchestras do. > Maybe not as MANY people over a given year...although that > might be disputed as well. (I mean, what do more real "people" enjoy > in a visceral, musical, endorphin producing sense, Duke Ellington, > Gil Evans and Chico O'Farrill or Beethoven, Brahms and Bartok? The > audience is there, ready to be reached.) All of us are real Sam, not just those who like jazz. The Duke and the others offer most interesting and enjoyable musical experiences but as visceral, musical and endorphin producing as Tchaik 6? You've got to be kidding. More people listen to Celine Dion but is that a sign of good taste? > > > Same w/recordings,if done right. > > So...you have about 1/5th the outlay of money for the product, and > yet get roughly the same return per performance. > > Talk about no-brainers!!! Until jazz players face the self indulgent nature of much of what they do and the artificiality of the amplification they think they need, I don"t see this happening. > > > And yet the REAL "no-brainers" are the arts administrators who are > missing this boat. There are lots of people catering to those with short attention spans but orchestras set higher standards. The best books in the world are not Harlequin Romances even though they are widely read. > > > The symphonies that are "in trouble" for WHATEVER reasons could be > financially reinvigorated by simply starting serious "jazz" > orchestras and programs.(I say "jazz" because I include many of the > Caribbean/South American idioms as well. Great music, crowd pleasers > and a whole new available audience as well.) Plus...if done right, > this would be producing music on the same level of artistic intent > and integrity as the symphonies. I mean, what is more artistic, the > Boston Pops playing a Star Wars medley or a concert of the great > Miles Davis/Gil Evans collaborations? > > Give me a break!!! > > The material is out there; there is great NEW material being > produced all over the world, and there is a corps of players that > number in the thousands (literally...there are more than three > hundred world class players in NYC alone) that could easily staff > these kinds of ensembles. > > If I went to someone running a business and said that I had a > foolproof way to cut the production costs of part of his organization > by 4/5ths w/out seriously cutting into the profits generated by that > part, he'd grab it in a minute. But the general arts > administrator...excepting the few imaginative ones, of course...can't > see past the end of his arts administration degree holding nose. > There IS no "profit motive"; there is no NECESSITY for original > thinking, and if the ship be sinking, why he'll just mail out his > resumes and get hired through the good ol' boy, good ol' way network > onto another, more financially viable ship. Businesses who get into areas they are not familiar with and are not dedicated to mentally and emotionally, almost invariably get into more trouble than they know what to do with. I suspect the same thing would be true of orchestras who embrace jazz. First off, no judgement to understand the difference between the good and the Lincoln Center jazz band. Stick to what you know and understand. > > > Further, if the truth be told many of the articles one > periodically sees about "Symphonies In Trouble" are just cynical > publicity flak (shot by cynical publicity flacks) used to raise even > more money. The occasional totally mismanaged minor symphony does > fail...but how many in the last 40 years have really gone down for > the count? True. It is important to see the glass as half full. I have faith that sooner or later a generation raised on amplified twaddle will get bored. But maybe not, in which case we "elitists" will just keep on doing our thing and feeling superior - said with tongue firmly in cheek. > > > And how many of THOSE would have survived if they had good, > imaginative managers and used the natural artistic resources of this > culture to their fullest extent? Same holds true for any activity. This is a universal truth. > > > What are the reasons for this neglect? Excepting the natural > inertia of any non-profit making system (think Post Office or the > last years of the USSR for further references on this matter), the > reasons appear to me to be twofold. > > First is the long held cultural inferiority complex of > America...especially middle and upper middle class white America...in > regard to Europe. "Our culture is so much younger than European > culture...why, it MUST be inferior!!!" I don't know anyone who feels this way. It's just that there is more to choose from the European repertoire since its been arouind longer. Personally I don't stop to think about the nationality of Tallis or Copland or Ives, just enjoy interesting stuff. > > > Second...good old American racism. Even though "jazz" has become a > multi-racial and multi-cultural music, played and enjoyed equally by > people of every race on earth, it was indeed invented by the sons and > daughters of slaves, and largely developed by people from the lower > classes of American society right on up through the 1970s at > least...African Americans, fairly recently immigrated white ethnics > of every stripe, people from the Caribbean and South America. How > could it POSSIBLY be the equal of Beethoven and Mozart? It's just > tricked up barroom dance music. I can only get in trouble commenting on this. > > > Well, we have a saying here in New York. "Money talks; nobody > walks." I make no brief here for the artistic content of the > music...it speaks for itself, either you hear it or you don't...but I > AM saying that if symphonies want to make money in order to survive, > jazz is the way to go. In cold hard cash terms, there is money to be > made in the production of jazz on the same concert level as symphony > orchestras, modeled on the same financial system. > > Why this is not generally happening yet is beyond my > comprehension. It seems to easily perceived. 4/5ths the cost, roughly > the same profit per service...how can you miss it? The great thing about the list is that it generates such a variety of opinions evn if we don't agree on this matter. > > > But so far, they HAVE generally missed it. > > Maybe it's just early in the process and this will come to be a > common tactic for symphony orchestras that wish to continue and grow, > to successfully compete in the marketplace with the many other > entertainment and cultural options offered to us today. I certainly > hope so. It would be good for them, and good for the jazz idiom as > well. > > Meanwhile...back to my long tones. Me too. Dress rehearsal tonight for Tchaik 6 tomorrow. Then I'm going on a cruise for a week with no horns or mouthpieces. Dave. > > > Later... > > Sam Burtis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:28:56 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Lindberg/Trudel - Canada embraces the trombone Message-ID: <454FC5BC266BDB4BBA26E5BBF2F73FEF11B7AA@torxchng1.dwpv.com> content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How often do you see articles like these? And in the same newspaper a day apart. Here reviews of Christian Lindberg's Toronto performance of the Berio and Alain Trudel's Montreal performance of the Serocki Concerto. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Trombone soloist steals the show It's not often that the orchestra's loudest instrument can sound sprightly and lyrical By ROBERT HARRIS Special to The Globe and Mail Friday, February 15, 2002 - Print Edition, Page R13 Toronto Symphony Orchestra Christian Lindberg, trombone With guest conductor Jukka-Pekka Saraste At Roy Thomson Hall in Toronto on Wednesday Jukka-Pekka Saraste brought "the Saraste" formula back with him on Wednesday night as part of his return engagement with a Toronto Symphony mightily changed since he left its artistic direction just a year or so ago. The formula? One honoured masterpiece, one modern classic, a Canadian premiere and an internationally known soloist. As in the past, the formula made for interesting programming, and a varied, if not completely successful concert. The premiere was Luciano Berio's 1999 tour de force, Solo for Trombone and Orchestra, an unapologetic 25-minute exercise in the textures and techniques of modern contemporary composition. The international soloist was trombonist Christian Lindberg, the man for whom the Berio concerto was written. And the combination of a fascinating piece of music, an amazing solo performance and a sympathetic, and well-constructed accompaniment made this premiere the centrepiece of the night. If you can name another international trombone virtuoso, you have my respect. However, with a player as powerful and as musical as Lindberg on the scene, one trombone virtuoso may be enough. In the Berio concerto, and in another concerto by Leopold Mozart also featured on the program, Lindberg took the loudest instrument in the orchestra, noted for its ability to provide deep and powerful orchestral textures, and made it a sprightly, dancing, lyrical, flexible solo star. The Berio concerto was written to show off both the technical range of the instrument and its player, and Lindberg soared from deep bass to high treble in an instant, flutter-tongued his way through amazingly quick passages, and demonstrated his total command of the trombone's possibilities. However, it was in the modest 18th-century Mozart that Lindberg's art was almost more on display. Providing a galant and restrained performance on the trombone is almost more difficult than pulling off a high-powered, all-out performance, but Lindberg's lyricism, his articulation and his spirit of fun (all necessary to fully realize the music of the Enlightenment) were impressive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Virtuosity in search of worthy repertoire By ALAN CONTER Special to The Globe and Mail Thursday, February 14, 2002 - Print Edition, Page R4 L'Orchestre symphonique de MontrŽal Alain Trudel, trombone Marco Parisotto, guest conductor At the Place des Arts in Montreal on Tuesday Quick. How many concertos can you name off the top of your head for orchestra and trombone? Don't look it up in a music dictionary. Thought so. The magnificent, full-bodied sound of the trombone just hasn't captured the imagination of a lot of composers when it comes to featuring the instrument in the concerto spotlight. Montrealer Alain Trudel is known to trombone enthusiasts around the world and has built a remarkable solo career that ranges from his jazz work, through early music, the classical and romantic repertoires for brass, all the way up to new works composed for and by him. Tuesday night, he was featured soloist with the Orchestre Symphonique de MontrŽal, sharing the stage with the young Montreal-born conductor Marco Parisotto. The house was packed and clearly some of the audience came just to bask in the lush sounds of Trudel's trombone since they opted not to stick around for Dvorak's Symphony No. 9 in E Minor (From the New World). Too bad, really, because the Dvorak was thoroughly enjoyable. The Trombone Concerto by Polish composer Kazimierz Serocki, on the other hand, was a fine virtuoso piece to highlight Trudel's immense skill, but not very interesting in so many other ways. The program notes rank Serocki, who died in Warsaw in 1981, with Penderecki, Gorecki and Lutoslawski. You might be forgiven for not being entirely convinced. Perhaps he's their equal, but the 1953 Trombone Concerto composed for Julius Pietrakowich suffers from that clunky, socialist-realist approach to music-making that was de rigueur in the dark days of the early fifties. Not that there aren't some lovely, subtle plays of colour and texture in the second movement and some intensely spirited playing in the final two movements. But Trudel's fabulous playing and astounding colour do not make the concerto memorable for its musicality. If only the repertoire were larger. As both audience and orchestra applauded Trudel, the engaging soloist strode back on stage and played a fine encore, Variations on an Original Theme by the great American trombonist Arthur Pryor (1870-1942). It was a generous and hearty gift from Trudel to an appreciative hall. After the intermission, conductor Parisotto, who regularly guests with the OSM when not fulfilling his duties as Principal Conductor of the Shanghai Symphony, came out to lead the band through Dvorak's New World symphony. Earlier he had opened the evening with a spare and elegant reading of Smetana's Moldau, which avoided the cloying sentimentality that can overtake this musical pamphlet of 19th-century Czech patriotism but unfortunately later slipped into the perfunctory. Surely there would be more to the New World. There was, a lot more. Dvorak's Symphony No. 9 is a stunningly inventive work, a fact that is easy to overlook because it is so familiar. Themes from the New World form an aural wallpaper to far too many films and television programs about 19th-century America. This is the sound of a certain idea of America. What is surprising is Dvorak's ability to create an essay about a culture that, for the first time, was proud to be one in a constant state of "coming into being." You can hear an intelligent articulation of the mingling of voices, tones and musical language that distinguished the New World from the Old at the frontier of the 19th and 20th centuries. Just as Alexis de Toqueville's foreign view of American democracy would inspire generations of American political observers, Dvorak's discerning ear for an exciting aural landscape produced in this symphony a seminal work of American composition. Parisotto and the OSM were in excellent form and Parisotto's contemporary sensibility served the work well. The woodwinds and horns were in especially brilliant colour. Over all, it was a performance of this intricate, beautifully textured work that rose to the challenge, making it new again. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:30:08 -0500 From: "R.A. Bates" To: "Trom Bone List" Subject: flat Bach 50 Message-ID: <001701c1b65f$8fd31bd0$4defd018@bates> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1B635.A69CCB60" I am 10 cents sharp with the tuning slide all the way in.Is that enough leeway? Should I have the tuning slide reciever shortened? Or should I buy a Edwards slide,which is shorter?(there is a used one in classifirds & I whould get removable lead pipes) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:32:49 EST From: T2PHXS@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Cc: T2PHXS@aol.com Subject: Re: Mahler 3 [utah] Message-ID: <143.99915da.299eca71@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello (Again) List, Just wanted to clarify to the "List" that the mentioned review in this post was not mine.I think the name is at the bottom of the note. I would never do that in a "Forum" like this. Thanks for your question Richard. I thought it was a good, fair, and honest question. Hopefully I answered it fairly well off the List. The following are my (Light-hearted but absolute.) opinions- Best ice skater- Peggy Fleming Best Basketball player- Dr. J Best Football player- Dick Butkus (Quarterback- Joe Montana) Best Baseball player- Willie Mays Favorite trombonist- ???????? What do you guys think? (This should keep you guys goin' for another couple weeks. :>) ) Thanks Gang ! "Kill da' Wabbit" ! , Mike Brown ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:36:37 -0500 From: "Dale J. Cruse" To: "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Mahler 3 [utah] Message-ID: <005301c1b660$77cbb8c0$70d92444@union1.nj.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My favorite trombonist? The one in Doug Yeo's head! The one in my head is a close second, but his always seems to sound a bit better! Dale J. Cruse dale@dalecruse.com http://www.dalecruse.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of T2PHXS@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:33 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Mahler 3 [utah] Favorite trombonist- ???????? What do you guys think? (This should keep you guys goin' for another couple weeks. :>) ) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:45:18 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020215134448.01900290@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 01:04 PM 2/15/2002 -0600, Listmonitor Trombone-L wrote: I must offer my input on this. The standard for ALL e-mail discussion groups is plain-text messaging. If you are using the latest version of Microsoft Outlook Express, you can configure the list's address (trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu) with "Sent plain-text e-mail only". The predominant problem with requesting HTML-only is that some services (or more pointedly, America Online) make it very nearly impossible to set your e-mail client to send plain text. If you are capable of sending plain text, please do so. LM I found the following at http://firstgenfirebird.org/firebird/FAQ/list/index.html Q: AOL 6.0 HTML Problem The new AOL 6.0 can not send plain text messages. How do I correct this problem so I can send messages to the list? A: When communicating with Internet recipients who are not using an email program capable of selecting which MIME section to view, an AOL 6.0 user can turn off the HTML using the following steps: Change your global email preferences (only needs to be done once): á Go to Keyword: Preferences (or choose Preferences from the Settings menu on the AOL 6.0 toolbar). á Click on Font, Text, & Graphics Preferences. á Click on the Reset button at the bottom of the resulting window. Do not make any changes in the Font Preferences area of the window. á Click on the Save button. Change a specific email to plain text (must be done for every email): á Compose and address the email as desired. á Choose Select All from the Edit menu to highlight the entire message. á With the mouse arrow somewhere over the highlighted text, click the Right mouse button, revealing a contextual menu (AKA Right-Click). á Choose Normal from the Text menu. á Taking care not to make any further changes to the message, send it. Note that changing the text to normal will eliminate the "blue bar" quoted text indicator, but will not remove some HTML elements of the quoted text. The entire quoted section must be deleted (or simply not quoted in the first place), followed by the re-entry of the text quoted manually, prior to changing the text to normal. Changing the text to normal will also eliminate any styled text that would have been seen by AOL recipients of the message, which cannot be re-added. Testing also suggests that messages with hyperlinks cannot be converted to normal text, requiring the prior removal of the link. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico KD5XB-2>APU24L,WA5IHL-11,K5BEN-15,WA5IHL-7,W5SF-1,K5CQH-15,WB5EKP-1*,TRACE7- 1:=3425.84N/10313.56W-[DM84] KD5XB-2>APU24O,PCSAT-1*:=/=254Eiz- B[DM84jk] cUIV32N} ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:43:45 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum. (E-mail)" Subject: RE: flat Bach 50 Message-ID: <454FC5BC266BDB4BBA26E5BBF2F73FEF11B7AB@torxchng1.dwpv.com> content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From the subject line I was expecting a message about a terrible mishap involving a steam roller and a bass trombone. Before changing slides, you should consider getting a repairman to shorten your tuning slide a bit. Another idea would be to get the mouthpiece shank shaved a bit (but it will change - in my experience, lessen - the cushion that you feel when you blow into it). The Edwards slide may or may not have the right connecting bit to fit on a Bach - I think most of them do not. Also, an Edwards slide will play differently from a Bach, primarily because its not quite as beefy (even it it is an orchestral weight slide) and probably has a nickel silver crook rather than a brass crook (though some have a brass crook). -----Original Message----- From: R.A. Bates [mailto:rabbit@twmi.rr.com] Sent: February 15, 2002 3:30 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: flat Bach 50 I am 10 cents sharp with the tuning slide all the way in.Is that enough leeway? Should I have the tuning slide reciever shortened? Or should I buy a Edwards slide,which is shorter?(there is a used one in classifirds & I whould get removable lead pipes) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:04:23 -0800 From: "Bodie Pfost" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: <3c6d77d7.5505.0@humboldt1.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This IS 2002... the 21st Century. The technology for reading html emails has been around for a long time. Why not just upgrade your equipment/isp/whatever instead of forcing everybody else to downgrade ours? Respectfully, Bodie Pfost >> >I loved this list in the past (years ago when it was young). I ended up >> >logging off, then on again, then off.... >> >and so on. >> > >> >I can't handle all of the individual messages so I subscribed digest this >> >time. >> > >> >You guys are killing those of us that don't use a browser to read our >> >email. >> >PLEASE turn off your html formatting. There is no need to post with html. >> > >> >You wouldn't believe all of the trash code you have to wade through just >> >to read a message. >> > >> >It is somewhat akin to reading 10 lines of >> > >> >(&^*N DHO{PIBNF*IB Y TGBIOESHOQ@TVB G:OCU J}{}{}::<:> >> >:"""{}{>{((&()XGPWIQYDTBPNEISUYNODGHDLNWIJHNFIUGR I >> >{}}{}><>> >UHD{}{}{}{}<{:{:+_)_)*&*{>"<::{O( OU HD OUWH ODH)+_*&^*798/6*98 >> >5459898772446877*^^&*^$E#&%$DWEDVYITHFGULGHN(PB*&RI&YFBGOILUGIL >> > >> >for every line of text. AAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! >> >> >> -- >> --------------------------------------- >> trombone-l digest archives and useful >> trombone-l information are available >> at http://www.trombone.org/trombone-l > > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:47:21 -0500 From: "Jayson Rowe" To: Subject: Conn for sale Message-ID: <00a201c1b661$f745bc30$6501a8c0@Laptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009F_01C1B638.0E4E2270" I have a Conn - no model or serial number (Just a #1 on the tuning slide and reciever), maybe a prototype....522" bore 8 in bell, lot's like a 78H, for sale. It has the old Brass flat counter weight with theÊ3 marching men on it, and it comes shipped in a 6H case. There is a small crinkle in the bell rim, not serious, and a very minor crease in the flare...the horn still sounds awesome, and rings like crazy on Ab on top of the staff...rings on high and low Ab as well, but not as much as top line...Rings a little on C's too. The horn is very alive. When I got it the lacquer on the bell was kinda funcky so I stipped it. It is a really good player, and I like the way it sounds/plays/feels much better than a Bach 36. I'm asking $500 + shipping. Thanks Jayson Rowe ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:50:43 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman To: "INTERNET:trombonel-monitor@trombone.org" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: <200202151551_MC3-F223-ED46@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message text written by INTERNET:trombonel-monitor@trombone.org >The predominant problem with requesting HTML-only is that some services (or more pointedly, America Online) make it very nearly impossible to set your e-mail client to send plain text.< I use CompuServe Classic (ironically, a part of AOL) and find it very frustrating when people send HTML mail. It shows up as a file, which I have to save in order to read. I seem so see a lot of these HTML mail only messages coming from folks with the "free" mail services like Hotmail and Juno. Are these set up to do only HTML? Bruce Guttman Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:56:14 -0500 From: "R.A. Bates" To: "Trom Bone List" Subject: leaky Thayers? Message-ID: <009901c1b663$352b4410$4defd018@bates> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0096_01C1B639.4BF36D00" Even when not using the 2nd valveÊa lot ofÊspit seems to collect there.I must drain it by removing the d slide and inverting the horn.If I am not actuating the valve how does it get there ? How does one check Thayers for air tightness? Can leaks be cured?( Bach 50T3 inline vavles } ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:04:36 -0500 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A most interesting post Sam, some of which is right on the money, some of which seems to be to in some other world. Let me put some personal comments where they fit in. sabutin wrote: Thanks Gabe for all this information. If the Symphony Orchestra system wants to survive and continue to grow, one thing they all might consider is their real function. They are ostensibly about the performance of great Western European style symphonic music...but if they were to simply do that and nothing else, they would not survive financially. Thus they produce Pops concerts, children's concerts, etc.; they wind up supporting educational efforts up to and including conservatories, and they often are the basis for whole performing arts centers. One facet of this generally healthy attempt to preserve, perform and promote great music that MANY of the symphony orchestras are entirely missing is the American jazz idiom. Wynton Marsalis and Lincoln Center have proven that this can be a financially viable effort (although to my ears they have done so in a largely inferior way musically, relying on a cult of personality and a largely mediocre ensemble and repertoire instead of going for the gold of great music performed at the highest level by the best musicians available). I'm glad I am not the only one who feels this way about this ensemble but the "cult of personality" certainly gets the attention of audiences. Do the math, American large "jazz" ensemble vs. symphony orchestra. Roughly 20 musicians vs. about 100. Right there you save an enormous amount in salaries, touring, recording and music copying expenses, and administrative staff. At LEAST 1/5th of the cost of a symphony orchestra, right down the line. Probably less...less pork barreling possible w/a leaner system. W/proper scheduling and publicity, you would attract audiences of the same size as symphony audiences, paying about the same money per person. I'm not so sure about this. To be totally honest, I have never yet heard any jazz performance with the complexity and emotional impact of the great symphonies. Does that mean you only want to listen to the same few pieces all the time? No of course not. But the simplicity of the jazz from - note form, not notes - does not offer the same interest by a long shot. If it did, audiences for jazz would be a whole lot bigger than they are now, regardless of what orchestras do. ============================ David I respectfully suggest that you listen to any of the Gil Evans/Miles Davis collaborations..."Sketches of Spain" and "Porgy and Bess" are my two favorites...and/or any of the extended works of Duke Ellington (as played by his own band) and ANYTHING by his band from about 1938 to 1959 or so. While I'm at it...find the "Three Afro Cuban Jazz Suites" and /or the "Afro Cuban Suite" by Chico O'Farrill. Also any NUMBER of Bob Brookmeyer's works ("Willow Weep For Me", "ABC Blues" are both good places to start, the Stan Getz/Eddie Sauter collaboration "Focus", and anything ever written for the Kenton Band by Robert Graettinger. Also any of"the Modern Jazz Quartet's more adventuresome work, "Bird w/Strings" (just for the astonishing lyricism of Charlie Parker's playing on it) ...I could go on, but the "complexity' and "emotional impact" of these pieces ALONE are enough to cast some serious doubts on your basic premise. Add to these the "complexity and emotional impact " of the great singers + soloists...not everyone's cup of tea, I'll grant you...and you have 100 years of art music that will rival anything in the European canon during the same time period. You also might want to take a listen to Louis Armstrong's work in the early '30s...say "I Got A Right To Sing The Blues" from 1/26/33 or take 2 of his 1932 solo on "Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea". If those solos ALONE don't have enough complexity and emotional impact for you...well, what can I say? Add Sidney Bechet, Coleman Hawkins, Bix Beiderbecke, Lester Young, Jack Teagarden, Billie Holiday, he entire bebop movement, Getz, Mulligan, Brookmeyer,The several long lasting bands of Miles Davis and their alumni, Mingus's EPIC works, the things that have been done by Caribbean and South American, Japanese and European jazz players...LOTS of great music there. GREAT music, both is its complexity and emotionality. Now you can say "I don't like it all that much"...you might even say "I just don't get it"...but don't minimize it. Certainly 100 years of work in an idiom that gas been systematically ignored by large parts of the arts establishment and thus has been SERIOUSLY underfunded during much of it life will not rival the work of the great European composers during the roughly 400 years since J. S. Bach was born...but it's a damned good start. And there's MORE than enough material for any good ensemble to put on 20-40 weeks of performances over a several year period w/out too much repetition. (Let ALONE what could be commissioned if funding were available.) Fletcher Henderson,Oiver Nelson, J. J. Johnson, Bill Finegan...LOTS of stuff., most of it unfairly neclected and most of it VERY complex and emotionally impactful =========================== Maybe not as MANY people over a given year...although that might be disputed as well. (I mean, what do more real "people" enjoy in a visceral, musical, endorphin producing sense, Duke Ellington, Gil Evans and Chico O'Farrill or Beethoven, Brahms and Bartok? The audience is there, ready to be reached.) All of us are real Sam, not just those who like jazz. ======== Didn't say you weren't "real", those of you who truly enjoy European orchestral music. I just don't think you are in the majority of the so-called "audience" for those styles. They are GREAT styles, the music is AMAZING, the litening exoperience is glorious...I just don't see that kind of reaction when I go to Lincoln Center. The audiences are there becausr that's what they're S'POSE to do, most of them. The point I was making is that if you took a net and scooped up 1000 middle class + upper middle class art music consumers, the people who go to concerts and buy CDs, and gave 'em all sodium pentothal, played Brahms and Duke and asked which they would rather hear...if the amount of money that funds symphonies is less than 1000 times the amount used to fund jazz, I'll eat my CD collection, but I will BET a large percentage of that group...30% ?, 55% ?...would prefer Duke. The money is going where peoples MOUTHS are, alright...just not where their hearts are. =================================== The Duke and the others offer most interesting and enjoyable musical experiences but as visceral, musical and endorphin producing as Tchaik 6? You've got to be kidding. More people listen to Celine Dion but is that a sign of good taste? ============= No. it is not. And Celine Dion is not what I am speaking of, which you know full well. Let me ask you something. Do you think that an evening spent listening to a great band play Duke Ellington or Bob Brookmeyer is INFERIOR in some artistic way to one spent listening to Tchaikovsky? I do not, nor are Monets or Van Goghs or Picassos inferior to Rembrandts and Titians. Yet Van Gogh, for example DIDN'T SELL A SINGLE PAINTING to a non-family member during his life. The jazz world has occupied much the same territory that Van Gogh occupied...not so thoroughly dissed as he was, but definitely the neglected stepchild...and much of it is due to attitudes such as yours. You may not HEAR it...but it's in there, Charles, it's in there. It may not be for everybody...but it's for enough somebodies to be given a larger slice of the pie than the crumbs it now receives. Later... Sam =============== Same w/recordings,if done right. So...you have about 1/5th the outlay of money for the product, and yet get roughly the same return per performance. Talk about no-brainers!!! Until jazz players face the self indulgent nature of much of what they do and the artificiality of the amplification they think they need, I don"t see this happening. And yet the REAL "no-brainers" are the arts administrators who are missing this boat. There are lots of people catering to those with short attention spans but orchestras set higher standards. The best books in the world are not Harlequin Romances even though they are widely read. The symphonies that are "in trouble" for WHATEVER reasons could be financially reinvigorated by simply starting serious "jazz" orchestras and programs.(I say "jazz" because I include many of the Caribbean/South American idioms as well. Great music, crowd pleasers and a whole new available audience as well.) Plus...if done right, this would be producing music on the same level of artistic intent and integrity as the symphonies. I mean, what is more artistic, the Boston Pops playing a Star Wars medley or a concert of the great Miles Davis/Gil Evans collaborations? Give me a break!!! The material is out there; there is great NEW material being produced all over the world, and there is a corps of players that number in the thousands (literally...there are more than three hundred world class players in NYC alone) that could easily staff these kinds of ensembles. If I went to someone running a business and said that I had a foolproof way to cut the production costs of part of his organization by 4/5ths w/out seriously cutting into the profits generated by that part, he'd grab it in a minute. But the general arts administrator...excepting the few imaginative ones, of course...can't see past the end of his arts administration degree holding nose. There IS no "profit motive"; there is no NECESSITY for original thinking, and if the ship be sinking, why he'll just mail out his resumes and get hired through the good ol' boy, good ol' way network onto another, more financially viable ship. Businesses who get into areas they are not familiar with and are not dedicated to mentally and emotionally, almost invariably get into more trouble than they know what to do with. I suspect the same thing would be true of orchestras who embrace jazz. First off, no judgement to understand the difference between the good and the Lincoln Center jazz band. Stick to what you know and understand. Further, if the truth be told many of the articles one periodically sees about "Symphonies In Trouble" are just cynical publicity flak (shot by cynical publicity flacks) used to raise even more money. The occasional totally mismanaged minor symphony does fail...but how many in the last 40 years have really gone down for the count? True. It is important to see the glass as half full. I have faith that sooner or later a generation raised on amplified twaddle will get bored. But maybe not, in which case we "elitists" will just keep on doing our thing and feeling superior - said with tongue firmly in cheek. And how many of THOSE would have survived if they had good, imaginative managers and used the natural artistic resources of this culture to their fullest extent? Same holds true for any activity. This is a universal truth. What are the reasons for this neglect? Excepting the natural inertia of any non-profit making system (think Post Office or the last years of the USSR for further references on this matter), the reasons appear to me to be twofold. First is the long held cultural inferiority complex of America...especially middle and upper middle class white America...in regard to Europe. "Our culture is so much younger than European culture...why, it MUST be inferior!!!" I don't know anyone who feels this way. It's just that there is more to choose from the European repertoire since its been arouind longer. Personally I don't stop to think about the nationality of Tallis or Copland or Ives, just enjoy interesting stuff. Second...good old American racism. Even though "jazz" has become a multi-racial and multi-cultural music, played and enjoyed equally by > people of every race on earth, it was indeed invented by the sons and daughters of slaves, and largely developed by people from the lower classes of American society right on up through the 1970s at least...African Americans, fairly recently immigrated white ethnics of every stripe, people from the Caribbean and South America. How could it POSSIBLY be the equal of Beethoven and Mozart? It's just tricked up barroom dance music. I can only get in trouble commenting on this. Well, we have a saying here in New York. "Money talks; nobody walks." I make no brief here for the artistic content of the music...it speaks for itself, either you hear it or you don't...but I AM saying that if symphonies want to make money in order to survive, jazz is the way to go. In cold hard cash terms, there is money to be made in the production of jazz on the same concert level as symphony orchestras, modeled on the same financial system. Why this is not generally happening yet is beyond my comprehension. It seems to easily perceived. 4/5ths the cost, roughly the same profit per service...how can you miss it? The great thing about the list is that it generates such a variety of opinions evn if we don't agree on this matter. But so far, they HAVE generally missed it. Maybe it's just early in the process and this will come to be a common tactic for symphony orchestras that wish to continue and grow, to successfully compete in the marketplace with the many other entertainment and cultural options offered to us today. I certainly hope so. It would be good for them, and good for the jazz idiom as well. Meanwhile...back to my long tones. Me too. Dress rehearsal tonight for Tchaik 6 tomorrow. Then I'm going on a cruise for a week with no horns or mouthpieces. Dave. Later... Sam Burtis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:16:19 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: flat Bach 50 Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020215161226.01e996a8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:30 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, R.A. Bates wrote: I am 10 cents sharp with the tuning slide all the way in.Is that enough leeway? Should I have the tuning slide reciever shortened? Or should I buy a Edwards slide,which is shorter?(there is a used one in classifirds & I whould get removable lead pipes) Before spending hundreds on a modification to your horn or a new slide, take a hard look at the mouthpiece. Larger cups make the pitch flatter. They also push the tone towards the woofy, indistinct end of the spectrum. You didn't mention what mouthpiece you are using, but you can see a full quarter step of difference from one mouthpiece to another. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:14:03 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Trombone-L Subject: HTML/Trombone-L Guidelines (was Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The issue is not equipment or Internet service. The issue is file size and accessibility. HTML-encoding adds absolutely nothing of value to an e-mail discussion group. It doubles the size of the message file, especially since e-mail clients are horrible encoders.Pretty colors and decorative fonts are really useless when it comes to a discussion group. The point is the content, not the eye-candy of the delivery medium. Additionally, HTML-encoded e-mails take, on average, 30% longer to open in a an e-mail client because of the interpretation that has to take place. Plain text requires no interpretation, and opens immediately. Of the major e-mail client applications, ALL of them will easily interpret plain-text e-mails. NONE of them will accurately interpret HTML-encoded e-mails unless they were written on the same operating system using the same version of the e-mail client. Netscape's e-mail client, Eudora and Pine tend to fail miserably when attempting to render HTML code. If you use any platform other than Windows (and I work in UNIX, Linux, Macintosh and Windows/DOS), you can immediately see the difference and the problems caused by HTML when following discussion groups. However, all this explanation is merely a courtesy. If you will review the Trombone-L Guidelines which you received upon subscribing, you will find the following (Section 2B of the guidelines): B: Please set your e-mail client to send plain-text messages rather than HTML-formatted text. Many e-mail clients do not correctly process HTML-formatted e-mails, and it also doubles the file size of the message. That is the final word regarding the posting of HTML-encoded e-mails to the trombone-l. LM This IS 2002... the 21st Century. The technology for reading html emails has been around for a long time. Why not just upgrade your equipment/isp/whatever instead of forcing everybody else to downgrade ours? Respectfully, Bodie Pfost >I loved this list in the past (years ago when it was young). I ended up >logging off, then on again, then off.... >and so on. > >I can't handle all of the individual messages so I subscribed digest this >time. > >You guys are killing those of us that don't use a browser to read our >email. >PLEASE turn off your html formatting. There is no need to post with html. > >You wouldn't believe all of the trash code you have to wade through just >to read a message. > >It is somewhat akin to reading 10 lines of > >(&^*N DHO{PIBNF*IB Y TGBIOESHOQ@TVB G:OCU J}{}{}::<:> >:"""{}{>{((&()XGPWIQYDTBPNEISUYNODGHDLNWIJHNFIUGR I >{}}{}><>UHD{}{}{}{}<{:{:+_)_)*&*{>"<::{O( OU HD OUWH ODH)+_*&^*798/6*98 >5459898772446877*^^&*^$E#&%$DWEDVYITHFGULGHN(PB*&RI&YFBGOILUGIL > >for every line of text. AAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! -- --------------------------------------- trombone-l digest archives and useful trombone-l information are available at http://www.trombone.org/trombone-l -- --------------------------------------- trombone-l digest archives and useful trombone-l information are available at http://www.trombone.org/trombone-l ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:18:18 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: <200202151618_MC3-F241-FBBD@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message text written by INTERNET:bpfost@humboldt1.com >This IS 2002... the 21st Century. The technology for reading html emails has been around for a long time. Why not just upgrade your equipment/isp/whatever instead of forcing everybody else to downgrade ours?< Because my CompuServe mail reader does not run VB scripts like "Melissa"! Nothing usurps my Address Book to send itself all over the place like "Love Bug". Finally, many of us using Linux don't have HTML mail readers. What's so great about HTML messages? I don't care what fonts you want to put in a message; I want to read the content. Save HTML for what it was intended: web pages. If you want to send me a picture, attach it to the message as a real file (with a name; I don't trust things like "File Mail. To read this message, save it" and no name for the file) or a URL so I can go look for myself. Why should I drop my way of doing things for you? If you want to send HTML messages, go ahead. I will continue to delete them without reading them because I have to. If you would like to share your pearls of wisdom with folks like me, send text. Bruce Guttman Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:24:58 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <84.236a68e5.299ed6aa@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AMEN! Well said Sam! In a message dated 02/15/2002 4:04:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, sabutin@mindspring.com writes: > > GREAT music, both is its complexity and emotionality. > > Now you can say "I don't like it all that much"...you might even > say "I just don't get it"...but don't minimize it. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:25:33 -0800 From: "Gary Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: HTML/Trombone-L Guidelines (was Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!) Message-ID: <659829993461CA49942D1312DE3436918309D1@edcenmail1.bcsd.k12.ca.us> Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B667.4CFE95DF" From: Listmonitor Trombone-L However, all this explanation is merely a courtesy. If you will review the Trombone-L Guidelines which you received upon subscribing, you will find the following (Section 2B of the guidelines): B: Please set your e-mail client to send plain-text messages rather than HTML-formatted text. Many e-mail clients do not correctly process HTML-formatted e-mails, and it also doubles the file size of the message. That is the final word regarding the posting of HTML-encoded e-mails to the trombone-l. ============================================================== Seems clear enough to me. Now where IS my McGuffies Reader. Gary "See Spot run." Maxwell ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:36:41 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020215161923.01f34388@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:17 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, David Buckley wrote: sabutin wrote: > W/proper scheduling and publicity, you would attract audiences of > the same size as symphony audiences, paying about the same money per > person. I'm not so sure about this. To be totally honest, I have never yet heard any jazz performance with the complexity and emotional impact of the great symphonies. Does that mean you only want to listen to the same few pieces all the time? No of course not. But the simplicity of the jazz from - note form, not notes - does not offer the same interest by a long shot. If it did, audiences for jazz would be a whole lot bigger than they are now, regardless of what orchestras do. I don't think the jazz form is particularly lacking. It can be inspirational in its own way. The problem is the inconsistent execution. Symphony orchestras strive to execute a piece perfectly and the same way every time. When you buy a ticket for a symphony performance, you have a clear expectation that is usually met. Some performances are better than others, but the deviation is 5% or so. Jazz concerts are completely different. First, a lot of the performers act like they really don't care very much about their music. They show up and play some stuff for an intro, jam a little, maybe play a distinguishable head, then mess around for 30 minutes improvising on chords that have some resemblance to the head, play the head, finally run out of steam on an ending chord, and jam another 30 seconds before deciding they are done. It doesn't appear that they have made much of an effort rehearsing for the performance. Sometimes the spontaneous performance yields a magnificent performance. Other times it is not very moving. The variance, it seems to me, is more like 60% or so. Because of that, I'd have a lot of trouble paying top dollar to see most jazz groups. I'd rather catch them in a club with a modest cover where I can leave if it is not happening. By the way, rock groups are generally in that 5-10% variance that we expect of the symphony orchestras, although they achieve that with a lot of pre-programmed MIDI and lights. Nonetheless, the public has confidence that they will get a good show if they plunk down their 40 bucks. Maybe what we really need is for jazz composers to stretch their talents to produce programs that can are well thought out, well rehearsed, and designed to move the audience. Good jazz can be well planned. I'm thinking of Ellington's Sacred Services, which were on the more popular end of the scale. Another example is the orchestra composition Ellingtones by David Baker. It is a brilliant work and can definitely be the foundation for world class jazz playing. To me, that is a better formula for getting jazz into the concert hall. Later, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:12:24 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <01C1B697.C2DD8960.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not much of a jazz musician. But I play one in the orchestra. Craig's post says a lot about why I like big band jazz quite a bit but find the free (less organized?) stuff much less satisfying. It's the 5% variance rule! Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Craig Parmerlee [SMTP:craig@acticalc.com] Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 2:37 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics At 03:17 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, David Buckley wrote: >sabutin wrote: > > W/proper scheduling and publicity, you would attract audiences of > > the same size as symphony audiences, paying about the same money per > > person. > >I'm not so sure about this. To be totally honest, I have never yet heard >any jazz performance with the complexity and emotional impact of the great >symphonies. Does that mean you only want to listen to the same few pieces >all the time? No of course not. But the simplicity of the jazz from - note >form, not notes - does not offer the same interest by a long shot. If it >did, audiences for jazz would be a whole lot bigger than they are now, >regardless of what orchestras do. I don't think the jazz form is particularly lacking. It can be inspirational in its own way. The problem is the inconsistent execution. Symphony orchestras strive to execute a piece perfectly and the same way every time. When you buy a ticket for a symphony performance, you have a clear expectation that is usually met. Some performances are better than others, but the deviation is 5% or so. Jazz concerts are completely different. First, a lot of the performers act like they really don't care very much about their music. They show up and play some stuff for an intro, jam a little, maybe play a distinguishable head, then mess around for 30 minutes improvising on chords that have some resemblance to the head, play the head, finally run out of steam on an ending chord, and jam another 30 seconds before deciding they are done. It doesn't appear that they have made much of an effort rehearsing for the performance. Sometimes the spontaneous performance yields a magnificent performance. Other times it is not very moving. The variance, it seems to me, is more like 60% or so. Because of that, I'd have a lot of trouble paying top dollar to see most jazz groups. I'd rather catch them in a club with a modest cover where I can leave if it is not happening. By the way, rock groups are generally in that 5-10% variance that we expect of the symphony orchestras, although they achieve that with a lot of pre-programmed MIDI and lights. Nonetheless, the public has confidence that they will get a good show if they plunk down their 40 bucks. Maybe what we really need is for jazz composers to stretch their talents to produce programs that can are well thought out, well rehearsed, and designed to move the audience. Good jazz can be well planned. I'm thinking of Ellington's Sacred Services, which were on the more popular end of the scale. Another example is the orchestra composition Ellingtones by David Baker. It is a brilliant work and can definitely be the foundation for world class jazz playing. To me, that is a better formula for getting jazz into the concert hall. Later, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:30:09 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <005901c1b670$53bdbae0$59219d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem is the inconsistent execution. Symphony orchestras strive to execute a piece perfectly and the same way every time. When you buy a ticket for a symphony performance, you have a clear expectation that is usually met. Some performances are better than others, but the deviation is 5% or so. Jazz concerts are completely different. First, a lot of the performers act like they really don't care very much about their music. They show up and play some stuff for an intro, jam a little, maybe play a distinguishable head, then mess around for 30 minutes improvising on chords that have some resemblance to the head, play the head, finally run out of steam on an ending chord, and jam another 30 seconds before deciding they are done. It doesn't appear that they have made much of an effort rehearsing for the performance. ======================================================================== === I think this is an invalid comparison and a repetition of an untrue stereotype. The symphony orchestra description is accurate IF you are talking about full time professional, or even part time orchestras made up of full time musicians. When you get to your weekend warrior and community orchestras, the deviation is MUCH greater than 5%. The difference between the NY Phil, or even the Louisiana Phil, and the New Orleans Civic Orchestra is more in the 60% range. Granted the NY Phil from a good night to a bad night is probably in the 5% range. If you look at similar world class level players (NY Phil level) in the jazz world, you will find similar dedications to great performance. What you describe as a jazz concert, I am sure is accurate of many of the local jazz acts in most of the country. It is an accurate description of many jazz acts I have seen, but mediocre part time performers are that regardless of their idiom. Look at groups like Chick Corea and Origin (featuring fine trombonist Steve Davis), Dave Holland's Quintet (with Robin Eubanks), the Oscar Peterson Trio, The Vanguard Orchestra, Maria Schneider's band, and a host of other world class jazz groups and you will find the same attention to detail, rehearsal ethic, good arrangements, and dedication to quality performance that you will find in any major orchestra. The idiom of performance is not the determining factor, the level of performance is the determining factor, and I think that is the point that Sam was making; if the same level of arts administration were applied to jazz based organizations, the same high level of performance would be attained. ======================================================================== === Good jazz can be well planned. I'm thinking of Ellington's Sacred Services, which were on the more popular end of the scale. ======================================================================== = That's odd, I was under the impression that the sacred suites were some of his least well received works, historically speaking. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:39:51 -0800 From: Tony To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: flat Bach 50 Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit John Englekes of the SF Symphony once told me that if you play the Bach 50's CORRECTLY, they will be under pitch. Tony Clements ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:51:07 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so Message-ID: <3C6D90DB.D9ECEFE3@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the fundamental question in musical instrument design and evolution is expressive ability. What do you get if you add slide stockings to Tuba Mirum? Blue Bells of Scotland! Why haven't violins and pianos changed in hundreds of years? Because those instruments' designs are sufficiently advanced that even the very best musicians' expressive ability is not limited by the instruments. Enter the machine age of the 19th century. As has been noted, wind instruments benefited greatly from the addition of keys and valves, made possible by the advancement of precision manufacture during the industrial revolution, and driven by wind instrument musicians' desire to raise the expressive ability of their voice. So is there any longer an instrument in the modern orchestra that limits a musician's expressive ability, or is the orchestra limited in expression by the current roster of voices? I think not, and I don't look for significant evolution in the instruments or instrumentation of orchestras. Enter the electronic age of the twentieth century. Why did 8 to 20 wind players get supplanted by three musicians with electrically amplified guitars? I think this had to do a lot more with economics than any wind instrument expressive poverty. Not that the guitar isn't a very rich instrument: Since one player can create up to six note chords, just the opposite, and electrical amplification allowed that one player to be heard by thousands of listeners at once, and to vary the voice through electronic manipulation. Could a dozen musicians playing electrically amplified instruments replace a 100 member orchestra? No more than those three musicians with electric guitars _replaced_ swing bands. If electrified musicians/composers/promoters want to shoulder acoustic musicians aside in the (serious, legitimate, classical, pick your term) genre, they're going to need to do something just as expressive, just as interesting, different, and cheaper than the orchestra, not just imitate them. I gotta go practice, Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:37:59 -0800 From: Tony To: Greg Bergantz , Dick Akright , Alexander , Subject: We are coming back! Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3096628679_1269803_MIME_Part" Dear Friends of Music- After 122 years of live musical performance, the Symphony neared bankruptcy and shut its doors to restructure last October. Next Saturday night, February 23rd, we are coming back with a concert that may appeal to many of you. If you can attend, I've placed the website with ticket information in this missive. Your support would be appreciated, and would help to preserve one of the artistic treasures of the symphonic music making world. Here is the web information: http://www.Sanjosesymphony.org/benefit.html ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:56:16 +0100 From: "Ben van Dijk" To: "Trombone List \(Trombone List\)" Subject: Mahler 3 Message-ID: <001c01c1b673$fd2e5190$9700000a@TheGirls.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1B67C.5EF2B990" The Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Edo de Waart Conducting. Pete Saunders?, Solo Trombone on No.3 ÊFABULOUS! RCA Victor Red Seal Label Jim Bermann Hi Jim, This isnÕt Pete Saunders but his colleague Herman Nass, a Dutch player. I was there as basstrombone of the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra and have to agree Herman did a great job. All the best, Ben van Dijk Basstrombone Rotterdam Philharmonic Rotterdam Conservatory Royal Northern College of Music, Manchester www.basstrombone.nl ben@basstrombone.nl ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:23:04 -0600 From: "Jon Moeller" To: "'Trombone List'" Subject: RE: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: <000001c1b677$b7f0a750$9401a8c0@Jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to disagree with some of the stuff being said here (and in other messages). First off, Html messages are not nearly twice as large as regular files, unless you are changing the font every few words. Secondly, all messages are being interpreted from binary, so don't say that they aren't (yeah I'm nitpicky but ah well) Third, The reason VBScript files, malicious Word documents, and other various viruses get opened, is not because of a "new age" mail client, but operator error (read: idiots). Fourth, the reason a lot of people seem to opt for posting in HTML is because a font like Arial, or Verdana, is easier to read than mono-space text Fifth, if there are any Linux users out there, I know there are programs that will take html tags out of messages. -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Bruce Guttman Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:18 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message text written by INTERNET:bpfost@humboldt1.com >This IS 2002... the 21st Century. The technology for reading html emails has been around for a long time. Why not just upgrade your equipment/isp/whatever instead of forcing everybody else to downgrade ours?< Because my CompuServe mail reader does not run VB scripts like "Melissa"! Nothing usurps my Address Book to send itself all over the place like "Love Bug". Finally, many of us using Linux don't have HTML mail readers. What's so great about HTML messages? I don't care what fonts you want to put in a message; I want to read the content. Save HTML for what it was intended: web pages. If you want to send me a picture, attach it to the message as a real file (with a name; I don't trust things like "File Mail. To read this message, save it" and no name for the file) or a URL so I can go look for myself. Why should I drop my way of doing things for you? If you want to send HTML messages, go ahead. I will continue to delete them without reading them because I have to. If you would like to share your pearls of wisdom with folks like me, send text. Bruce Guttman Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:57:41 -0000 From: "keith.marr" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: HTML/Trombone-L Guidelines (was Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!) Message-ID: <001e01c1b67c$91d156a0$210b86d9@tiny> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: HTML/Trombone-L Guidelines (was Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!)Come on guys, is it such a hardship to set your emails to the list to plain text? These are the rules the monitor has set down and by large the monitor does a good job of making this list better than an unmonitored newsgroup. I don't see the problem. Let's stop arguing the toss and get back to the businessof being a great list. That's what we're good at. All you have to do before sending to list from Outlook is Format menu - plain text. It's easy - I just did it! Keith in Bb/F/D ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:11:02 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020215185851.01ea0d48@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:30 PM 2/15/2002 -0600, Jeff Albert wrote: I think this is an invalid comparison and a repetition of an untrue stereotype. The symphony orchestra description is accurate IF you are talking about full time professional, or even part time orchestras made up of full time musicians. When you get to your weekend warrior and community orchestras, the deviation is MUCH greater than 5%. The difference between the NY Phil, or even the Louisiana Phil, and the New Orleans Civic Orchestra is more in the 60% range. Granted the NY Phil from a good night to a bad night is probably in the 5% range. The variance I was speaking of was for a particular company. My orchestra is unpaid, but we still produce a consistent performance. I think we work within that 5% variance. Of course, we aren't within 5% of the NY Phil and never expect to be. The point is that whether it is the NY Phil or our amateur orchestra, the audience buys a ticket with an expectation level that is generally met. If you look at similar world class level players (NY Phil level) in the jazz world, you will find similar dedications to great performance. What you describe as a jazz concert, I am sure is accurate of many of the local jazz acts in most of the country. It is an accurate description of many jazz acts I have seen, but mediocre part time performers are that regardless of their idiom. Look at groups like Chick Corea and Origin (featuring fine trombonist Steve Davis), Dave Holland's Quintet (with Robin Eubanks), the Oscar Peterson Trio, The Vanguard Orchestra, Maria Schneider's band, and a host of other world class jazz groups and you will find the same attention to detail, rehearsal ethic, good arrangements, and dedication to quality performance that you will find in any major orchestra. I'm not saying they aren't great players. I'm simply saying that I've attended quite a few jazz concerts, including some very big names. Most of them appeared to have put very little effort put into arrangement or orchestration. They seemed to be perfectly happy just jammin' using the time honored intro-head-solo for 30 minutes-head-and out formula. If the group is really kicking, that cam be fun to watch and hear. But because there is so little organized preparation, the variance is large. I felt really empty after many, many of those shows. In contrast, I don't think I've ever felt let down by a big band concert. Even if the solos aren't hitting on all cylinders, the band usually has a lot of good ensemble work. So to be more specific, I'm talking about small jazz combos (pno, bass drums and a horn, typically) that play mainly improvised music. But that is what a lot of the big names do, and IMHO that yields a great inconsistency in the product. Some nights it is very good. Other nights, it isn't so good. I wouldn't take a chance on that if I ran an orchestra concert hall. Good jazz can be well planned. I'm thinking of Ellington's Sacred Services, which were on the more popular end of the scale. ======================================================================== = That's odd, I was under the impression that the sacred suites were some of his least well received works, historically speaking. Poor choice of words on my part. It wasn't popular as in reaching the mainstream. What I meant to say is that the style of the pieces was more popular/accessible and not hard core jazz. Later, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:21:16 From: "Michael Clayville" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Mahler 3 [utah] (what joe likes...) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I can't be positive what Joe is particularly recommending about this recording but I believe it has a lot to do with the quality of articulation and the nice phrasing Meredith pulls off (what I get from talking to friends who have studied with him for an extended period of time). (Someone can clue me in... would I be breaking any copyright laws to copy the solos to a mp3 and put it up for everyone to listen to/judge on their own? Just a possibilty.) Mike Clayville www.monumentalbrass.org -------------------------------------------------------- Mike: Why do you think Joe Alessi recommends listening to this piece? He must hear something that he wants you to use as a learning point. I can't pull it out of your review. Rick Marple San Antonio TX ============== Subject: Re: Mahler 3 [utah] How did I know that everyone would have an opinion on this topic? Anyway, in regards to the Utah/Abravanel recording... after hearing Joe Alessi make the same remark that Randy mentioned (about making all his students listen to this recording) I started hunting it down myself. After three years of searching I found it in an out of the way shop in Japan. (Go figure, couldn't find it at Tower but middle of nowhere Japan...) My thoughts on it... overall the performance is emotionally intense but unclean (rhythmic discrepancies, pitch problems, etc.), the strings/woodwinds sound good (not thrilled about some of the tone colors), the trumpets are great (esp. the posthorn, it's *very* "in the distance" and extremely musical), the horns are incredible (great tone, phrasing...) and finally what everyone is really interested in... Trombones: recorded rather oddly: levels sound rather lower than the rest of the ensemble but they are still quite present main point to mention: lack of sustain (not only in the trombones but throughout the ensemble/piece). But while notes are not really held to their full value there is no taper. It results in what I would characterize as some pretty choppy phrasing. Solos (Ned Meredith is the principal trombone, by the way): 1st solo: definite lack of sustain but like i said no taper subtle attacks (he never 'hammers' a note, its more like the German nachschlag (pretty sure I'm using the right term here)) uses vibrato throughout the solo and not just at notes before resolutions 2nd solo: rather quick tempo less legato than you would generally hear it performed now some really nice phrasing (echoing the second g-d towards the end of the solo, for instance) lack of sustain through the end ritard 3rd solo: holy pitch, batman (unison a's) extremely nice phrasing throughout (really nice subito piano after the turn toward the end) I know I can't really do it justice through words but I know for the longest time I was extremely interested in this performance because of the ringing endorsement from Joe and this is the best I can do for everyone here. Mike Clayville www.monumentalbrass.org _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:44:26 From: "posaune rex" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Janacek Sinfonietta parts? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello, The Janacek sinfonietta 2nd trombone part is on the Grant Park audition list... I have the excerpt from Brown vol VIII and the Doms book but I'm wondering if anyone has a part they could mail me (study purposes only of course). I understand that it is rental only and that there are copyright issues with them sending it out... they firmly said in their letter that they will not mail any parts out. I already checked the local Symphony orchestra's library. Any suggestions or help will be appreciated!!! Thanks, stacy werblin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:47:45 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: flat Bach 50 Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020215203710.01f6ce08@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:39 PM 2/15/2002 -0800, Tony wrote: John Englekes of the SF Symphony once told me that if you play the Bach 50's CORRECTLY, they will be under pitch. That may be true. I don't have much experience with the B50. I would note that some of these instruments were designed 30 or more years ago and the proportions have not changed. Maybe the B50 was flat from the first day. But my theory is that players have moved to larger mouthpieces during that period. Flatness is a seldom recognized consequence of using a larger mouthpiece bowl. If a person puts a S60 or equivalent on the thing and blows to the center of the pitch, it wouldn't surprise me that it would come out flat. If the S60 sound is what the player is seeking, then a hacksaw will be needed. Right now I'm working on an instrument that was shipped by DEG with a 12C, even though the bore is .562. With the 12C, the pitch is fine, but I am making modifications so that it will be a useful bass trombone. Using even a moderate Elliott bass trombone cup, I'm having to take 3 or 4 inches out of the horn. Cheers, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:03:11 EST From: Joestanko@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: flat Bach 50 Message-ID: <3c.19692b0b.299f33ff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3c.19692b0b.299f33ff_boundary" >John Englekes of the SF Symphony once told me that if you play the Bach 50's CORRECTLY, they will be under pitch.> That may be true. ÊI don't have much experience with the B50. ÊI would note that some of these instruments were designed 30 or more years ago and the proportions have not changed. ÊMaybe the B50 was flat from the first day. ÊBut my theory is that players have moved to larger mouthpieces during that period. ÊFlatness is a seldom recognized consequence of using a larger mouthpiece bowl. If a person puts a S60 or equivalent on the thing and blows to the center of the pitch, it wouldn't surprise me that it would come out flat. ÊIf the S60 sound is what the player is seeking, then a hacksaw will be needed. ================================================================================= In response to the following: "I would note that some of these instruments were designed 30 or more years ago and the proportions have not changed." Actually, older Bach 50's had longer tuning slide receivers - my Mt. Vernon 50B2 main tuning slide receivers are about 1/4" longer, and the neckpipe is around 3/16" longer than the current version of the 50B2. For some years, the largest bass trombone mouthpiece available was the Bach 1 1/2G, which was an excellent match on a 50 in terms of proper fit in the leadpipe and pitch center. When a stock Schilke mouthpiece used in a stock Bach leadpipe, it sticks out way too far. The pitch may be flat even with the main tuning slide all the way in, unless the tuning slide receivers are cut down, or the mouthpiece shank is turned down to a Morse taper to match the dimensions of the Bach leadpipe. With many options in leadpipes and mouthpieces available, one can match a leadpipe to a Schilke mouthpiece stem, or order one with a standard Morse taper for use with a Bach leadpipe. I've seen Schilke's with the stem turned down to fit in a Bach leadpipe, but the end of the mouthpiece still extends past the leadpipe's venturi. The Bach 1 1/4G, 1G, and Doug Yeo mouthpieces are all larger than the 1 1/2G but fit properly in a Bach leadpipe; I don't know why the Schilke mouthpieces have that size of stem and taper. With great respect to John Englekes, I disagree that the Bach 50 is under pitch - it depends on the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination - and the player. For example, take a listen to Doug Yeo's BSO audition tape excerpts on his website - "At the time I was playing a Bach bass trombone with a Schilke 60 mouthpiece with a single Thayer valve...". And look where he ended up! Joe Stanko - Bach 50 player ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:24:47 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <185.3af8043.299f390f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But isn't this what jazz is all about? How do you rehearse improvised music? I go to see the spontaneity, to see and hear something fresh. Of course they have bad nights sometime, but I would be sore disappointed if I got a pre-planned, rehearsed concert. Big bands have to do a certain amount of rehearsing of course but that's a lot different from the music small groups do, seems to me. Mike Alford ----------------------- In a message dated 02/15/2002 7:06:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: > So to be more specific, I'm talking about small jazz combos (pno, bass > drums and a horn, typically) that play mainly improvised music. But that > is what a lot of the big names do, and IMHO that yields a great > inconsistency in the product. Some nights it is very good. Other nights, > it isn't so good. I wouldn't take a chance on that if I ran an orchestra > concert hall. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:06:23 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020215234756.00baa868@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:24 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, ALFORDMB@aol.com wrote: But isn't this what jazz is all about? How do you rehearse improvised music? I go to see the spontaneity, to see and hear something fresh. Of course they have bad nights sometime, but I would be sore disappointed if I got a pre-planned, rehearsed concert. That is one way -- it isn't the only way. There are countless combos (including some of the most famous players) who basically just jam. While improvisation is an important part of jazz, IMHO isn't the only thing. Frankly I don't find too much of the improvisation particularly fresh or emotive. If that is 90% of the act, I am likely to be disappointed unless the improvisation is really outstanding. Not all small jazz groups do this "just show up and play something" thing. I haven't heard Bonetown live, but those Michael Davis compositions are really smart and there is a lot of very intriguing duet playing with Davis and Reichenbach. That represents a serious investment of time and talent that, to me, is considerably more deserving of an audience. I guess what I'm saying is that improvised jazz sounds quite repetitive to many listeners. It may be a lot of fun, and a real intellectual challenge for the players, but it is really easy to put an audience to sleep with that canned "I play 4 choruses, you play 4, and then the bass will play 2, oh and don't forget the drummer" format. I appreciate some clever ensemble writing included in the mix. Just my opinion. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:46:53 -0800 From: "Trombone-L Monitor" To: Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: <200202152346.AA99025212@trombone.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >From: "Jon Moeller" >Reply-To: mole2k4@attbi.com >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:23:04 -0600 > >I have to disagree with some of the stuff being said here (and in >other >messages). > >First off, Html messages are not nearly twice as large as regular >files, >unless you are changing the font every few words. As a rule, they average at least twice as large when encoded using Outlook Express for PC or Macintosh. The number of embedded hard spaces and font tags is unbelievable, and it is these unnecessary items which increase the space. >Third, The reason VBScript files, malicious Word documents, and >other >various viruses get opened, is not because of a "new age" mail >client, >but operator error (read: idiots). This is completely, totally false. If there is blame to place, it is on two entities: First, the original software author who has created software with major security issues, and second the criminal who choses to write a virus which will exploit the aforementioned security issues. "Operator error" has very little to do with it. To provide an example, how often to you visit a web site and become deluged with new, automatic popup windows with advertisements and other unwanted garbage? Did you *choose* to open those windows? No. The information coded into the web page automatically opened them. The same insidious code can be (and often is) embedded into e-mail messages. Disabling the automatic preview pane in Outlook Express helps avoid this problem, as does disabling the VBScript Auto-run (and keeping your anti-virus software definitions updated on a weekly basis!). The final word with respect to HTML-encoded messages on the trombone-l remains as follows: If your software supports sending plain-text messages, you are requested to use that option. This is a polite request made so as to keep the list traffic easily readable by the largest number of e-mail clients. LM ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:16:54 -0500 From: "John McVey" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <004f01c1b6e3$d2d09140$6401a8c0@mhjlm00> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sabutin said it best in one of his posts early in this thread. "Either you get it or you don't." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 12:06 AM Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics > That is one way -- it isn't the only way. There are countless combos > (including some of the most famous players) who basically just jam. While > improvisation is an important part of jazz, IMHO isn't the only > thing. Frankly I don't find too much of the improvisation particularly > fresh or emotive. If that is 90% of the act, I am likely to be > disappointed unless the improvisation is really outstanding. > > Not all small jazz groups do this "just show up and play something" > thing. I haven't heard Bonetown live, but those Michael Davis compositions > are really smart and there is a lot of very intriguing duet playing with > Davis and Reichenbach. That represents a serious investment of time and > talent that, to me, is considerably more deserving of an audience. > > I guess what I'm saying is that improvised jazz sounds quite repetitive to > many listeners. It may be a lot of fun, and a real intellectual challenge > for the players, but it is really easy to put an audience to sleep with > that canned "I play 4 choruses, you play 4, and then the bass will play 2, > oh and don't forget the drummer" format. I appreciate some clever ensemble > writing included in the mix. > > Just my opinion. > Craig > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:31:36 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020216082111.01eb1520@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:16 AM 2/16/2002 -0500, John McVey wrote: Sabutin said it best in one of his posts early in this thread. "Either you get it or you don't." I get it. I don't care for it. IMHO, that kind of performance is not as worthwhile as a well orchestrated one. If I want to hear nothing but a bunch of jammin', I can catch that anywhere. With the Aebersold tapes and all the other education on improvisation, lots of people can improvise pretty well these days. You don't have to look very hard to find people who can land on the changes with some musical ideas. A group that just shows up, turns on the amps, and jams for 90 minutes isn't fresh. I don't need to pay to hear that. I can do that myself. I don't mean to be pedantic, but my point is that there are some jazz groups who invest a great effort in preparation, composition, and rehearsal. But there are a whole bunch of them who do none of that and they try to bluff their way through by saying that if I don't hear it, it is because of my limitations. Maybe true, but that approach isn't going to get those people into the concert hall. If Elgar, Beethoven, and Copland had that attitude, their music wouldn't make it into the concert hall either. I guess I'm up to about 12 cents, so I'm done. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:43:46 -0600 From: "Dean McCarty" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: flat Bach 50 Message-ID: <001901c1b6f8$58274dc0$ad0960cc@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C1B6C6.0C5EBE00" I played on a Schilke 60 for 15 years on a Conn... but when I bought my 50 I found it to be flat... I went in search for a mouthpiece to fix that problem... I settled on the Yamaha Yeo model... I've had no problems since (if anything I find myself going sharp... a side effect still from when I compensated with the S60).Ê This is not an endorsement for the Yeo mouthpiece (although it is very good)... it's to say that most problems begin with the mouthpiece. To say that an instrument should be flat if you play it correctly???!!! That sounds a little ridiculous to me. I think what was meant is that the Bachs play with a darker sound if played correctly... darker doesn't mean flat. Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ----- Original Message ----- From: Joestanko@aol.com To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 10:03 PM Subject: Re: flat Bach 50 >John Englekes of the SF Symphony once told me that if you play the Bach 50's CORRECTLY, they will be under pitch.> That may be true. ÊI don't have much experience with the B50. ÊI would note that some of these instruments were designed 30 or more years ago and the proportions have not changed. ÊMaybe the B50 was flat from the first day. ÊBut my theory is that players have moved to larger mouthpieces during that period. ÊFlatness is a seldom recognized consequence of using a larger mouthpiece bowl. If a person puts a S60 or equivalent on the thing and blows to the center of the pitch, it wouldn't surprise me that it would come out flat. ÊIf the S60 sound is what the player is seeking, then a hacksaw will be needed. ================================================================================= In response to the following: "I would note that some of these instruments were designed 30 or more years ago and the proportions have not changed." Actually, older Bach 50's had longer tuning slide receivers - my Mt. Vernon 50B2 main tuning slide receivers are about 1/4" longer, and the neckpipe is around 3/16" longer than the current version of the 50B2. For some years, the largest bass trombone mouthpiece available was the Bach 1 1/2G, which was an excellent match on a 50 in terms of proper fit in the leadpipe and pitch center. When a stock Schilke mouthpiece used in a stock Bach leadpipe, it sticks out way too far. The pitch may be flat even with the main tuning slide all the way in, unless the tuning slide receivers are cut down, or the mouthpiece shank is turned down to a Morse taper to match the dimensions of the Bach leadpipe. With many options in leadpipes and mouthpieces available, one can match a leadpipe to a Schilke mouthpiece stem, or order one with a standard Morse taper for use with a Bach leadpipe. I've seen Schilke's with the stem turned down to fit in a Bach leadpipe, but the end of the mouthpiece still extends past the leadpipe's venturi. The Bach 1 1/4G, 1G, and Doug Yeo mouthpieces are all larger than the 1 1/2G but fit properly in a Bach leadpipe; I don't know why the Schilke mouthpieces have that size of stem and taper. With great respect to John Englekes, I disagree that the Bach 50 is under pitch - it depends on the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination - and the player. For example, take a listen to Doug Yeo's BSO audition tape excerpts on his website - "At the time I was playing a Bach bass trombone with a Schilke 60 mouthpiece with a single Thayer valve...". And look where he ended up! Joe Stanko - Bach 50 player ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:00:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Trombone-L Monitor wrote: > security issues. "Operator error" has very little to do with it. To > provide an example, how often to you visit a web site and become > deluged with new, automatic popup windows with advertisements > and other unwanted garbage? Did you *choose* to open those > windows? No. The information coded into the web page > automatically opened them. Our computer geeks gave us an "anti pop up patch" which I have yet to install--having installed three other patches this past week (and I don't even use Outlook or any commercial windoze-type mail browser). The university has been busily installing those darned annoyances all over their website to extract badly-designed survey information from one--they don't leave a mark of their passing, so even if you are using the same computer and visiting the same site (like the library catalog) they come BACK, like poorly-treated lice. I'd asked how to stop them because I'd noticed how much they were slowing my system down. It takes a lot to slow down a T3 connection, and it wasn't feeling any faster than dialing in on my '386 from home! Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:51:04 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <20020216155104.86982.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > Let's say an orchestra controls one or more performing > venues, as many > orchestras do. They make decisions about what acts will > go into the > hall. Now, if it were simply a matter of maximizing the > profits per show > (i.e. sell the most tickets while minimizing expenses), I > think your > arguments would be very compelling. The problem is that > it is a false > economy. Orchestras get a large part of their income > from grants and > gifts. These gifts come mainly from the "society types". But it's not just that. The orchestra's non-profit status. like I wrote previously, is tied to a mission statement. What I think I didn't express clearly is that the non-profit mission statement is the REASON the organization exists - that's the distinction between a for-profit business, which fundamentally exists to make money, and a non-profit, which has to make money in order to fulfill its stated mission. Some might argue that large non-profits (like symphony orchestras) don't really meet this standard, and in some cases they might have a valid argument, but that's the distinction in the eyes of the IRS. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2302 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:03:56 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Weak stereotype was RE: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <13.6aeff7c.299fdcec@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/16/2002 12:01:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: > I guess what I'm saying is that improvised jazz sounds quite repetitive to > many listeners. It may be a lot of fun, and a real intellectual challenge > for the players, but it is really easy to put an audience to sleep with > that canned "I play 4 choruses, you play 4, and then the bass will play 2, > oh and don't forget the drummer" format. I appreciate some clever ensemble > writing included in the mix. I can agree with you on this. There are some "good" jazz personalities who will sometimes just play the chord scales up and down, etc. and it does get boring. But there are many who put on terrific, exciting shows, every time. We attend a "jazz party" format thing annually with about 14 musicians from NYC and all over. Of course they played together a lot but maybe not recently and that kind of thing. Anyway they always show up, and on time, turn in good perfomances, put together different groups on the spot, and you can tell when the "good stuff" is