TROMBONE-L Digest 2272 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Frackenpohl Pastorale by Roger Hecht 2) Re: Bb bass clef parts by "Adrian Drover" 3) Re: Frackenpohl Pastorale by Walter Barrett 4) Re: Bb bass clef parts by Walter Barrett 5) RE: Frackenpohl Pastorale by "Bruce Hall" 6) Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? by Gabriel Langfur 7) RE: Lefties by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 8) Civic Orchestra of Chicago by "Elizabeth Lewis" 9) Re: A thought on left handed trombone by Michael & Dava Millar 10) Re: Bb bass clef parts by David Buckley 11) Re: Cities Service Band of America by "Tom C. Shaddox" 12) RE: Cities Service Band of America by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 13) RE: Civic Orchestra of Chicago by "Dan Maslowski" 14) RE: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 15) Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by Servo149@aol.com 16) Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by william david proctor 17) Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by Chris Waage 18) Re: Cities Service Band of America by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 19) RE: Civic Orchestra of Chicago by "James W. Yardley" 20) RE: Cities Service Band of America by Ralph Bigelow 21) RE: Tilting Head Back by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 22) Fresno Phil bass trombone audition by Dave Tall 23) Re: Left Handed Trombone by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 24) Re: Cities Service Band of America by "Joe L. Norcross" 25) Re: Fresno Phil bass trombone audition by "Gary D. Maxwell" 26) Re: Civic Orchestra of Chicago by Jay Heltzer 27) Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by Larry White 28) Re: Bb bass clef parts by "Adrian Drover" 29) Re: Tilting Head Back by sabutin 30) Re: Tilting Head Back by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 31) Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by David Buckley 32) Teaching slide positions to beginners by "Dan Traugh" 33) Re: Teaching slide positions to beginners by Chris Waage 34) RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners by Steve Gamble 35) Re: Teaching slide positions to beginners by Walter Barrett 36) RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners by "Dan Traugh" 37) RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners by Chris Waage 38) RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners by Steve Gamble 39) Re: Teaching slide positions to beginners by Walter Barrett 40) RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners by Steve Gamble 41) Comments Needed - Mouthpiece holder by "Kevin Saunders" 42) Re: Civic Orchestra of Chicago by Sldtbn@aol.com 43) RE: Civic Orchestra of Chicago by Steve Gamble ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:04:54 -0500 From: Roger Hecht To: Subject: RE: Frackenpohl Pastorale Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020116130300.00a4d4d0@pop.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:30 AM 1/16/2002 -0600, you wrote: There is a piece for trombone and band by Alfred Reed. The title has something to do with the sea. It's quite tone centered and doesn't seem too difficult. But it's been years since I've heard it. Roger Hecht ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:18:52 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bb bass clef parts Message-ID: <002d01c19eba$5ae901d0$d688fc3e@homedmpbgvaomg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Walter Barrett" > It's possible that it could be transposed Bb Bass clef.Mostly you see that > in the Netherlands in euph parts, these days. Yep, I was confronted with a euph part in Bb bass clef just a few days ago, and the arrangement was published in the Netherlands. I can sight read bass clef and Bb treble no problem, but this one completely threw me. I always thought this was an antique notatation, so have never bothered to practice it. I'm afraid that if I do, it might screw me up when reading ordinary bass clef parts. Being bacically a Bb player, I transpose all my bass clef parts. Having started playing trombone 35+ years ago, I now do this transposition on auto-pilot. I don't need to think about it. The problem is, I don't know how to switch the auto-pilot off. Adrian ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:33:11 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Frackenpohl Pastorale Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/16/02 1:04 PM, Roger Hecht at rihecht@earthlink.net sent forth into the cosmos: > At 09:30 AM 1/16/2002 -0600, you wrote: > > There is a piece for trombone and band by Alfred Reed. The title has > something to do with the sea. It's quite tone centered and doesn't seem too > difficult. But it's been years since I've heard it. > > > Roger Hecht > > That sounds like "Seascape", originally for euph and band. It's all lyrical kind of stuff, no technical-burn-the-valve-oil-off material, so it should work for trombone as well. The band I play with sight-read it a few months ago without any major trainwrecks. You might also try "Blues Essay" by Richard Maltby. -- Walter Barrett My Pet Peeve- People with pet peeves! Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:40:25 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bb bass clef parts Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/16/02 1:18 PM, Adrian Drover at slide.rule@adios.co.uk sent forth into the cosmos: > > From: "Walter Barrett" > >> It's possible that it could be transposed Bb Bass clef.Mostly you see that >> in the Netherlands in euph parts, these days. > > Yep, I was confronted with a euph part in Bb bass clef just a few days ago, > and the arrangement was published in the Netherlands. I can sight read bass > clef and Bb treble no problem, but this one completely threw me. I always > thought this was an antique notatation, so have never bothered to practice > it. I'm afraid that if I do, it might screw me up when reading ordinary > bass clef parts. Being bacically a Bb player, I transpose all my bass clef > parts. Having started playing trombone 35+ years ago, I now do this > transposition on auto-pilot. I don't need to think about it. The problem > is, I don't know how to switch the auto-pilot off. > > Adrian > > > I ran across this one a few times in the past year, as the new conductor of the Lehman College Band likes that Lord of the Rings guy (de Meij?), and a lot of James Curnow's stuff comes from a Dutch publisher. (Brings a new meaning to the expression "to be in Dutch.") Fortunately, there's usually a C Euph part, or BbTreble part stuck in there. When I did the Curnow Rhapsody, the librarian stuck a Bb bass clef copy of the solo part in my folder, that was an eye-opener... -- Walter Barrett "A Guinness a day helps keep the shrink away!" - Art Triggs Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:45:11 -0600 From: "Bruce Hall" To: , Subject: RE: Frackenpohl Pastorale Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Roger Hecht 01/16/02 12:04PM >>> At 09:30 AM 1/16/2002 -0600, you wrote: There is a piece for trombone and band by Alfred Reed. The title has something to do with the sea. It's quite tone centered and doesn't seem too difficult. But it's been years since I've heard it. ++++++ The work you are thinking of is: Seascape Alfred Reed Marks 1962 (euphonium or trombone solo) Hope this helps. Bruce D. Hall ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:57:35 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? Message-ID: <20020116195735.48735.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- David Pozos wrote: > Most of the kids were studying from a book called > "Trombón de Pistones" by > G. Parés, a french publication. It starts out by telling > you that you should > know how to read bass clef in the normal position and > bass clef positioned > over the third line. In other words you play F where we > normally play D! That's called baritone clef, and it's a leftover from when all clefs were treated as transposing clefs, indicating a particular pitch - like modern alto & tenor clefs, which indicate where middle C is. Modern Bass clef (F-clef) indicates F below middle C, Treble clef (G-clef) indicates G above, and both used to be movable. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:03:45 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: joetuba@lightspeed.net, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Lefties Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F7A5@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C19EC8.E76358A0" Trigger trombones are designed right handed. Straight tenors are not. They are symmetrical and work equally well both ways, as are mutes, mouthpieces, music stands, trombone stands, batons -oops, those work equally badly both ways. There really is no reason to prefer one way over another. Another consideration though is when a music stand must be shared. Flutes and violins commonly share a desk and must conform or poke each other's eyes out. In fact having watched bows flying in cramped orchestra pits I can't figure out how in the world they avoid it. Trombones may or may not have their own stand, but consider: a right handed trombone player tends to have vision blocked by the bell, and plays best from the left side of the stand. A left hander would be the reverse (did I spell that right? maybe it was perverse ) The ideal setup with two on a stand is a righty on the left and a lefty on the right.Ê If you thought a student would never go on to play a trigger horn, would you consider even for a second having them start learning on their nondominant hand? I hope not.Ê For all practical purposes you don't see any left handed trombones, even playing right handed. Lefties are a pretty good chunk of the general population but not the trombone population. Curious.Ê -----Original Message----- From: Joe L. Norcross [mailto:joetuba@lightspeed.net] We need understand that somethings work best as designed. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:34:57 -0600 From: "Elizabeth Lewis" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Civic Orchestra of Chicago Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be old news for some, but the Civic Orchestra (Chicago Symphony's training orchestra), according to their audition hotline and website, has suddenly cut trombones and tuba, along with percussion, keyboard and harp, from their program for the coming season. I'm not writing to fume about this since doing so here will likely have no effect whatsoever on their decision, but this is a big loss for us and I wanted to make sure everyone who was thinking about auditioning was aware of this. Beth Lewis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:33:06 -0800 From: Michael & Dava Millar To: BGuttman@compuserve.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: A thought on left handed trombone Message-ID: <3C45E382.B90D6658@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Guttman wrote: > > There was one other famous trombone player who played "lefty": Hoyt > Bohannon. I was going to avoid lengthening this thread, but then you brought up Hoyt. One thing about Hoyt was that he started playing left-handed in mid-career, and even then he'd sometimes play right-handed. There were a couple of interesting pictures that were published. In Hoyt's garage there is a framed newspaper article which has a backwards picture, so it shows Hoyt playing in a conventional manner, and the rest, Tommy Pederson et al., playing left-handed. When Jim Boltinghouse wrote an article on Hoyt's Garage for the ITA Journal a few years back, after our ITF performance in Las Vegas, I assembled the pictures for the article. One of the pictures was of Hoyt and Charlie Loper, and Hoyt was playing right-handed. When the article came out, that picture just showed Hoyt -- Charlie had been cropped out. Sure enough, the next issue had a letter to the editor taking the Journal to task for reversing the shot! Michael Millar -- ============================================= Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. Dava S. Millar, R.N., M.B.A. 25430 Via Impreso Valencia, CA, 91355 (818) 901-6843 FAX (661) 253-2999 ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:59:23 -0500 From: David Buckley To: slide.rule@adios.co.uk Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bb bass clef parts Message-ID: <3C45E9AB.141DF2EF@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Drover wrote: > From: "Walter Barrett" > > > It's possible that it could be transposed Bb Bass clef.Mostly you see that > > in the Netherlands in euph parts, these days. > > Yep, I was confronted with a euph part in Bb bass clef just a few days ago, > and the arrangement was published in the Netherlands. I can sight read bass > clef and Bb treble no problem, but this one completely threw me. I always > thought this was an antique notatation, so have never bothered to practice > it. I'm afraid that if I do, it might screw me up when reading ordinary > bass clef parts. Being bacically a Bb player, I transpose all my bass clef > parts. I thought I was the only brass band player left who did this Adrian. As you say it is automatic, unless you are tired. 60 years ago my Father said, raise it a tone and knock off 2 flats to play bass clef. Wish I'd learned it properly. It gets hairy tonight when I play Tschaik 6 in the 5 sharp part. The only salvation is that playing in 7 sharps, all the notes are raised. Regards. Dave. > Having started playing trombone 35+ years ago, I now do this > transposition on auto-pilot. I don't need to think about it. The problem > is, I don't know how to switch the auto-pilot off. > > Adrian ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:36:43 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Cities Service Band of America Message-ID: <3C45F26A.9C119637@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carole wrote in part: > I just received a photo and personnel list from when Abe > Torchinsky was playing with the band. > (Names as they appear on the personnel roster) > Baritones: Simone Mantia, Egidio Morra, Enrico Bozzacco > Tubas: William Bell, Fred Pfaff, Abraham Torchinsky, Joseph Tarto Today's trivia: Mantia, Pfaff and Bell were all Sousa band alums. Simone Mantia is to euphonium playing as Author Pryor is to trombones. Italian born Mantia doubled on trombone and was good enough to take Pryor's solos when the occasion arose. William Bell would later be known as "dean of American tubists". To think there was once a day when one could tune in regular broadcasts of such a band (and that American tubists had a dean!) Tom Shaddox ljshaddo@gte.net ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:47:01 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Cities Service Band of America Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E71249A5@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Simone Mantia is to euphonium playing as Author Pryor is to trombones. > Italian born Mantia doubled on trombone and was good enough to take > Pryor's solos when the occasion arose. > Not only that, he taught trombone and wrote a method book. I don't know if anyone still uses "The Trombone Virtuoso", but it was certainly a standard text with I was an undergraduate. I mentioned my graduate school teacher, John Hill, in an earlier post. He was a student of Mantia. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:57:47 -0600 From: "Dan Maslowski" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Civic Orchestra of Chicago Message-ID: <000201c19ed0$860f7270$9a022a0a@dmaslo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WOW! Really? I can't say I was aware, but it sounds to me that maybe Friedman's star students got jobs in a professional group now. Only reason I say this is because the two tenor guys in the Civic for the past few years were also attending Roosevelt in Chicago and recently, they have graduated with Masters degrees. So who knows. Maybe Jay has been displeased with the auditions the past few years also. Anyhow, those are just my thoughts. -Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Lewis Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:35 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Civic Orchestra of Chicago This may be old news for some, but the Civic Orchestra (Chicago Symphony's training orchestra), according to their audition hotline and website, has suddenly cut trombones and tuba, along with percussion, keyboard and harp, from their program for the coming season. I'm not writing to fume about this since doing so here will likely have no effect whatsoever on their decision, but this is a big loss for us and I wanted to make sure everyone who was thinking about auditioning was aware of this. Beth Lewis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:53:55 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'eljaywhite@telus.net'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: <587F49FABBEDD411A68F00A0C9EA313B5FD026@dasmthkhn561.amedd.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C19EE0.AD45F2F0" Who was the composer that wrote the piano solo for left hand only? Prokovief and Ravel for starters. Haven't heard they wrote for Left Handed Trombone, but then I haven't seen the orchestral trombone parts for these pieces either! :-). Rick Marple San Antonio TX ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:28:40 EST From: Servo149@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, and other listers possibly interested in the solo piano repertoire for people with one (preferably left) hand: Erich Wolfgang Korngold also wrote a Left hand concerto and numerous pieces for Paul Wittgenstein (the first one armed pianist). William Bolcom has written a concerto entitled "Gaea" for three hands. Camille Saint-Sanes, in addition to writing a beautiful Cavatine for trombone, wrote "Six Etudes for the Left Hand." Last, but certainly not least, Leopold Godowsky wrote a number of original compositions and transcriptions for left hand alone. Most pianists can't play the Godowsky one-hand transcriptions with two hands! Tate Addis- full-time Pianist, part-time Trombonist ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:47:58 -0700 From: william david proctor To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: <1882364010.1011199678@bldg62-0165.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Makes me wonder, what about those unfortunate pianists who can only use their RIGHT hands???!!! MANDATORY TROMBONE CONTENT: I play bass trombone much better than I do piano (with both hands fully functional). David Proctor bass trombone University of New Mexico --On Wednesday, January 16, 2002 6:28 PM +0000 Servo149@aol.com wrote: Richard, and other listers possibly interested in the solo piano repertoire for people with one (preferably left) hand: Erich Wolfgang Korngold also wrote a Left hand concerto and numerous pieces for Paul Wittgenstein (the first one armed pianist). William Bolcom has written a concerto entitled "Gaea" for three hands. Camille Saint-Sanes, in addition to writing a beautiful Cavatine for trombone, wrote "Six Etudes for the Left Hand." Last, but certainly not least, Leopold Godowsky wrote a number of original compositions and transcriptions for left hand alone. Most pianists can't play the Godowsky one-hand transcriptions with two hands! Tate Addis- full-time Pianist, part-time Trombonist ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:47:57 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Oddly enough, my wife asked me the same thing after seeing one of the posts. My reply was "conduct." Chris Makes me wonder, what about those unfortunate pianists who can only use their RIGHT hands???!!! MANDATORY TROMBONE CONTENT: I play bass trombone much better than I do piano (with both hands fully functional). David Proctor bass trombone University of New Mexico --On Wednesday, January 16, 2002 6:28 PM +0000 Servo149@aol.com wrote: Richard, and other listers possibly interested in the solo piano repertoire for people with one (preferably left) hand: Erich Wolfgang Korngold also wrote a Left hand concerto and numerous pieces for Paul Wittgenstein (the first one armed pianist). William Bolcom has written a concerto entitled "Gaea" for three hands. Camille Saint-Sanes, in addition to writing a beautiful Cavatine for trombone, wrote "Six Etudes for the Left Hand." Last, but certainly not least, Leopold Godowsky wrote a number of original compositions and transcriptions for left hand alone. Most pianists can't play the Godowsky one-hand transcriptions with two hands! Tate Addis- full-time Pianist, part-time Trombonist -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:49:02 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: 8guion@jmls.edu, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Cities Service Band of America Message-ID: <188.1df5262.29776b6e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the Mantia Arbans. Got it in the '40's. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:07:36 -0800 From: "James W. Yardley" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Civic Orchestra of Chicago Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does this mean that the low brass that are already in it are staying or are they just not going to use low brass? Take care, James Yardley -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Elizabeth Lewis Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:35 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Civic Orchestra of Chicago This may be old news for some, but the Civic Orchestra (Chicago Symphony's training orchestra), according to their audition hotline and website, has suddenly cut trombones and tuba, along with percussion, keyboard and harp, from their program for the coming season. I'm not writing to fume about this since doing so here will likely have no effect whatsoever on their decision, but this is a big loss for us and I wanted to make sure everyone who was thinking about auditioning was aware of this. Beth Lewis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:12:31 -0800 From: Ralph Bigelow To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , 8guion@jmls.edu Subject: RE: Cities Service Band of America Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 01/16/2002 1:47:01 PM, "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> wrote: >> Simone Mantia is to euphonium playing as Author Pryor is to trombones. >> Italian born Mantia doubled on trombone and was good enough to take >> Pryor's solos when the occasion arose. >> >Not only that, he taught trombone and wrote a method book. I don't know if >anyone still uses "The Trombone Virtuoso", but it was certainly a standard >text with I was an undergraduate. I mentioned my graduate school teacher, >John Hill, in an earlier post. He was a student of Mantia. > >^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ Allen Ostrander remarked at a Nashville workshop in the '80s that one should play No. 8 from the Mantia book, using different articulations, striving to have each note with the same quality as the others in the exercise. When I got home from Nashville I turned to my copy and found that Nos. 1-7 introduce the seven slide positions; No. 8 is eight or so bars of middle register quarter notes in C major. I have always wondered how many in attendance understood the importance of that lesson. Ralph Bigelow BonesWest ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:03:16 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E71249A2@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Matthew Woolly asked, > My lesson teacher has told me that i need to tilt my head back, and tilt > my mouthpiece down. I can't produce a sound this way, and when I try to > play this way, I look rather absurd. Anybody know what I need to do? > Did he really ask you to tilt your head back? Or have you gotten into the habit of tilting your head forward, meeting your trombone half way? I don't teach trombone at the moment, but I used to. It was amazing to me the number of students who had at least semi-good posture just sitting in the chair and then got all out of whack as soon as they picked up their instrument and prepared to play. As far as mouthpiece position is concerned, I recall that teacher used to insist that the slide should be parallel to the floor, and that anything else looked lazy. Of course, few people have dentition that will allow that. Most people have to tilt it down at least a little bit. As I can't imagine that anyone, without prompting from someone, would try to hold it unnaturally level, I am less confident in suggesting that your teacher is trying to bring you to a more natural placement than you have been using, but it's just possible. It strikes me as odd that I have only encountered one textbook on brass teaching that attempts to describe various kinds of dentition and the implications of each for the development of a proper embouchure or for proper mouthpiece placement. And that one makes hash of the subject. Without good literature to study, most teachers must be groping in the dark any time they have students with an unusual dentition. I have no idea, of course, whether that has anything to do with Matthew and his teacher. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:09:45 -0700 From: Dave Tall To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Fresno Phil bass trombone audition Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020116190945.017a9570@mail.albqrq1.nm.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone heard from the Fresno Philharmonic regarding their bass trombone audition? I have a student who has applied and has heard nothing back by mail. The audition is supposed to be Feb 2 or 3. He has emailed them and phoned, and has not received any reply. He has not received the list in the mail. Does anyone know what's going on there? Thanks! Dave Tall Bass Trombonist New Mexico Symphony ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:28:56 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone Message-ID: <005c01c19efe$c857bec0$485b4d0c@trbnplyr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List, I've been reading the posts on the left-handed trombone, and as a teacher, to my knowledge, I've only dealt with one left handed student, and he is an adult who happens to be ambidextrous. Here are some points to ponder concerning the left-handed trombone, in addition to the very good points that Gary Greenhoe made early on. 1) How many people in the world actually play the horn left-handed? Not very many. 2) How many people in the world that play the trombone right-handed write with their left hand? I wouldn't even want to guess, but I'm sure that there are many, many more like this. 3) What is really the main problem for a left-handed person who plays the trombone? Putting the slide in exactly the right place. I'm right handed, and I have some problems with that sometimes. What I'm driving at is that perhaps the left handed person will have to practice more slowly in order to make accurate slide position changes, but in time this can be mastered. Now, the bottom line is this. 99.999999999% of the left handed people in this world that play the trombone play it with the right hand moving the slide. Incidentally, string players all play right handed as well. Before I finished writing this post, I called one of the better violinists in our orchestra, and he told me that for a violin to be set up with the left hand operating the bow, the strings would have to be swapped, the bass bar and sound post would have to be swapped (a major operation, because the top would have to be removed), and also it would cause a major problem with playing in the orchestra, as the angle of the bow would be the opposite of the right hand players, and anyone who has even the slightest dealing with string players know how personalized bowing can be, and they all have to do finger and bow exactly the same way. If you have even 1 left handed person, that would totally destroy everything. When I take on a student, I never ask them if they are left or right handed, and I've never dealt with someone who wants to play with their left hand moving the slide. So, I would contend that if playing the trombone right-handed is good enough for very largest majority of the people in the world, it sounds to me like the old adage is appropriate: "If it's not broke, DON'T FIX IT. Paul D. Kemp Jr. Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:12:23 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" To: <8guion@jmls.edu>, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Cities Service Band of America Message-ID: <00f001c19f04$cb689980$86d8aec7@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Got my issue of The Virtuoso Trombone on the shelf. Mantia was one of the first to indicate that notes might be a little sharp or flat on the slide and you need to adjust Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:47 PM Subject: RE: Cities Service Band of America > > Simone Mantia is to euphonium playing as Author Pryor is to trombones. > > Italian born Mantia doubled on trombone and was good enough to take > > Pryor's solos when the occasion arose. > > > Not only that, he taught trombone and wrote a method book. I don't know if > anyone still uses "The Trombone Virtuoso", but it was certainly a standard > text with I was an undergraduate. I mentioned my graduate school teacher, > John Hill, in an earlier post. He was a student of Mantia. > > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > David Guion, Cataloging Librarian > The John Marshall Law School > 315 S. Plymouth Ct. > Chicago, IL 60604 > Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 > 8guion@jmls.edu > > Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? > > Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. > > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:19:10 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Fresno Phil bass trombone audition Message-ID: <001201c19f0e$1ea56980$8a525d3f@garymaxwell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to ditto your student. I sent for app and info and have also heard nothing back. Thought it might be a fun retirement job. Oh well, guess I'll stay put. I wish your student luck. All the best, Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra (yeah Fresno pays more!) ======================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Tall" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 6:09 PM Subject: Fresno Phil bass trombone audition > Has anyone heard from the Fresno Philharmonic regarding their bass trombone > audition? I have a student who has applied and has heard nothing back by > mail. The audition is supposed to be Feb 2 or 3. He has emailed them and > phoned, and has not received any reply. He has not received the list in > the mail. > > Does anyone know what's going on there? > > Thanks! > > > Dave Tall > Bass Trombonist > New Mexico Symphony > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:09:57 -0600 From: Jay Heltzer To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Civic Orchestra of Chicago Message-ID: <3C465CA5.1A321D3F@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being a Chicago trombone lister, and a current (albeit associate) member of Civic, I thought I would chime in on the issues regarding the lack of low brass, and percussion auditions this year. The Chicago Symphony is the life source for Civic. Part of its budget goes towards the Civic program, in addition to private financial contributions. The CSO, like most orchestras has faced some financial trouble, and this effects everything, including Civic. Civic needs to cut $3-400,000 from their budget. Therefore, the decision was made to reduce Civic to a chamber orchestra. All the incoming guest conductors are informed of this for their programming decisions. If for whatever reason trombones are needed for a selected piece, members of the current roster, and recent alumni who live in the Chicago area will be contacted for the opportunity to play. This also includes the Musicorp program as well, which has a brass quintet, and individual members (such as me) doing programs like youth orchestra coachings, and a successful mentoring program. If you have already submitted an application with the $30 application fee, it will be refunded to you. However, be patient (I am told). The sudden change of plans has slowed things down immensely, and the refunding of audition fees will take some time. I received this information from one of the administrators of Civic herself two days ago. This is the word from the horses mouth. This has nothing to do with any decisions by the low brass coaches (Friedman, Vernon, and Pokorny). It is a financial situation. FYI Jay Heltzer ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:04:19 -0800 From: Larry White To: Servo149@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: <3C467773.1898E3E2@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was Saint Saens that I was trying to remember. I think his music is absolutely beautiful especially the piece The Swan, when played as a Trom Solo. Now there is a simple but heart moving solo that will test the mettle of a good trombonist, at least that is MHO> Good night from Vancouver Larry White Servo149@aol.com wrote: > Richard, and other listers possibly interested in the solo piano repertoire > for people with one (preferably left) hand: > > Erich Wolfgang Korngold also wrote a Left hand concerto and numerous pieces > for Paul Wittgenstein (the first one armed pianist). William Bolcom has > written a concerto entitled "Gaea" for three hands. Camille Saint-Sanes, in > addition to writing a beautiful Cavatine for trombone, wrote "Six Etudes for > the Left Hand." Last, but certainly not least, Leopold Godowsky wrote a > number of original compositions and transcriptions for left hand alone. Most > pianists can't play the Godowsky one-hand transcriptions with two hands! > > Tate Addis- full-time Pianist, part-time Trombonist ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:40:05 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: "David Buckley" Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bb bass clef parts Message-ID: <008101c19f3b$97f90210$407e68d5@homedmpbgvaomg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "David Buckley" > I thought I was the only brass band player left who did this Adrian. As you say > it is automatic, unless you are tired. 60 years ago my Father said, raise it a > tone and knock off 2 flats to play bass clef. Except, that I think of it "up a 9th". Having copied transposing parts from scores written in sounding pitch for several years before I took up trombone made this easy. Starting as a treble clef player has its advantages. It makes tenor clef trombone and bass clef on Eb tuba as easy as cake, sorry, a piece of pie. Adrian ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:57:57 -0500 From: sabutin To: bandboy089@ddci.net Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1200846614==_ma============" Hey ya'll, My lesson teacher has told me that i need to tilt my head back, and tilt my mouthpiece down. I can't produce a sound this way, and when I try to play this way, I look rather absurd. Anybody know what I need to do? Thanks, Matthew Woolly ========= Your teacher COULD be a quack, or he could be correct...hard to say. It depends on your own physiognomy. I hold my head quite high in relation to what most other players do. Works for me...and I look a little silly when I play too. My attitude about how I LOOK is...if it works, I use it. The idea is to find the angle where there is the least constriction of the air column at the throat and soft palate. As far as tilting your m'pce (in ANY direction)...I don't believe anyone outside of YOU can really find the best m'pce angles and placements. Check out 3 of my articles on the Online Trombone Journal for some hints on one way to go about finding your own personal proper m'pce approach. Go to http://www.trombone.org/articles/browse.asp; from the pull down Authors menu select Burtis, Sam, and read "Letters From New York: Buzz Off! (Or buzz on - they both work) " and "Out of the Case: An Alternate Approach to Embouchure Development", Parts 1 + 2. If this stuff begins to work for you, I have written a book, "The American Trombone", which goes into it in much more depth. Email me if you want a copy, at . Later... Sam Burtis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:23:43 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: <005f01c19f62$9201fde0$7e5a4d0c@trbnplyr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01C19F38.A8870350" Matthew, Good posture when playing the trombone is an absolute MUST. As long as you are standing and/or sitting tall, with your head looking straight ahead, THEN bringing the trombone to your face, you shouldn't have too many problems. This is something that you need to practice a bit until it gets to be a habit. Remember--you're the boss--you bring the horn to you--don't you go to the horn.ÊThis thing of tilting the head back usually has something to do with extreme postures that are required of band directors during marching band, and they never think of how that posture is going to affect the embouchure of the player. Incidentally, the only way that someone can NATURALLY play with the trombone slide parallel to the ground is if they are a upstream player, which means the mouthpiece is on more of the bottom lip than top. if you're playing with more top lip than bottom, then you're a downstream player, which means that you will be blowing towards the bottom of the mouthpiece in order to ascend in pitch. It is quite normal for the slide to dip about 20 degrees if you are a downstream player with good posture.Ê ÊÊYou need to be more concerned about the SOUND you're producing than what it looks like. Everyone's dental structure is different and unique--soÊunique that they use dental records in order to identify unknown deceased persons. However, the posture thing affects your breathing: with poor posture, it is impossible to take in enough air, and without the air to make your embouchure vibrate, you're never going to sound good. If your head is sitting squarely on your shoulders, your windpipe is straight, and you can really get a good breath. I frequently have to do slight adjustments with posture with young students, and I always do this AWAY from the trombone. I hope this helps you. Paul D. Kemp Jr. Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.comÊÊÊÊÊÊ Hey ya'll, My lesson teacher has told me that i need to tilt my head back, and tilt my mouthpiece down. I can't produce a sound this way, and when I try to play this way, I look rather absurd. Anybody know what I need to do? Thanks, Matthew Woolly ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:47:57 -0500 From: David Buckley To: Servo149@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: <3C46E41D.823D66AE@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Servo149@aol.com wrote: > Richard, and other listers possibly interested in the solo piano repertoire > for people with one (preferably left) hand: > > Erich Wolfgang Korngold also wrote a Left hand concerto and numerous pieces > for Paul Wittgenstein (the first one armed pianist). William Bolcom has > written a concerto entitled "Gaea" for three hands Can't be a whole lot of 3 handed pianists. Dave. > . Camille Saint-Sanes, in > addition to writing a beautiful Cavatine for trombone, wrote "Six Etudes for > the Left Hand." Last, but certainly not least, Leopold Godowsky wrote a > number of original compositions and transcriptions for left hand alone. Most > pianists can't play the Godowsky one-hand transcriptions with two hands! > > Tate Addis- full-time Pianist, part-time Trombonist ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:03:52 -0500 From: "Dan Traugh" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have posted a page on my instrumental music site on this subject. I would appreciate any feedback you may care to give. http://fcweb.fcasd.edu/~Dan_Traugh/slidepositions.htm ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:10:49 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I have posted a page on my instrumental music site on this subject. I would appreciate any feedback you may care to give. http://fcweb.fcasd.edu/~Dan_Traugh/slidepositions.htm Excellent! I have been using a slightly different "toddler" analogy in my teaching for years, but rather than "Cheerios" and "mouth", I use "finger" and "nose." The humor seems to make the point stick a little better with the younger students. BTW-here's how the average first-year band kid describes slide positions: First: all the way in. Second: halfway to third Third: even with the bell when my finger goes "DING" Fourth: If you stick the slide on your fingertip while your thumb touches the bell Fifth: somewhere out there, but we never use it Sixth: as far as you can reach Seventh: a little further than you can reach and mom yells "BE CAREFUL! WE'RE JUST RENTING IT!" Chris -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:33:27 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'Dan_Traugh@fcasd.edu'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: <01C19F31.A42B4E80.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't want to be harsh or start a war, but this is just the kind of thing that takes students years to unlearn so they can just listen their way to the correct position. Some never get over it. Students that come to me having been taught to feel for the positions, almost without exception, have poor intonation. And musical concepts are a mystery to them. Teach them the sound of a Db and they will know where 5th position is when they hear themselves playing the correct sound. This can be taught the first day. It's easy on the first day. The student has no knowledge. The big challenge for the teacher is to try to keep the student aware of the true process that he or she was following that led to their success in knowing where the position is. That is, sound first; technique second. This is the natural order of things. However, for what ever reason, humans seem to want to rely on the gained knowledge, instead of on what got them the knowledge to begin with. So, by the second week or so, if the teacher is not vigilant, students begin to put the slide where they think the position is instead of listening. Adios budding young virtuoso. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Dan Traugh [SMTP:Dan_Traugh@fcasd.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 8:04 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Teaching slide positions to beginners I have posted a page on my instrumental music site on this subject. I would appreciate any feedback you may care to give. http://fcweb.fcasd.edu/~Dan_Traugh/slidepositions.htm ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:38:38 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/17/02 10:03 AM, Dan Traugh at Dan_Traugh@fcasd.edu sent forth into the cosmos: > I have posted a page on my instrumental music site on this subject. I > would appreciate any feedback > you may care to give. > > http://fcweb.fcasd.edu/~Dan_Traugh/slidepositions.htm > > Dan- Great idea! I have a couple of beginners that I'm going to try that with, possibly having them play the note after they've placed the slide correctly a few times. I think we get kids started looking at the slide (instead of the music) by giving them reference points like 4th "is just past the bell." That's how we get them started with the finger on the bell routine, because beginners quickly realize that they can't look at the music AND the slide. Their 1st instinct is to reach out and touch the bell for the tactile feedback. Neurologically, you can't get rid of a bad habit; you can only substitute for it with a good one. Practice any habit (good or bad) long enough, and you form neural connections that facilitate that habit, sort of like writing a macro to do in 1 keystroke what normally takes 5. Especially with young beginners, their brains are not as hard-wired yet, so it definitely pays to develop the good habits/macros as early as possible. If we get them started with the physical feedback from their arm, combined with looking at the music and hearing the right pitch, we'll do ourselves (and any future trombone teachers) a big favor. -- Walter Barrett "Be nice to your kids, they're the ones that pick out the nursing home!" Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:40:07 -0500 From: "Dan Traugh" To: sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org writes: > So, by the second week or so, if the teacher is >not vigilant, students begin to put the slide where they think the >position >is instead of listening. My intention here is not to de-emphasize listening which I assumed to be an obvious goal. Many people (especially non- trombonists) are constantly complaining about how "hard" using the slide is when my point is that this is unfounded. Would it surprise you to know that at the beginning level most students would have no idea what to listen for or even what out of tune sounds like? Absolutely teach intonation but don't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Give them (and their teachers) something to use in the meantime. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:54:41 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Most people learn intitially by a visual reference, then by gaining an understanding of what has to happen to get the desired result. I've been watching my youngest daughter (2 years old) mimic tying shoes - she has the basic actions down, but she's missing a couple of steps in the process because she doesn't understand it. When I work with classroom beginners, the focus from the start is on both visual and aural observation. Does it look right? OK, then does it SOUND right? If it sounds right but doesn't look right, what can be done? Get the kids asking questions of themselves, because that's when thinking will begin. You don't want to ask "Yes" or "No" questions if you can avoid it UNLESS you're leading with a Yes or No question. Always think "Why?" Most importantly, spend at least 50% more time playing than talking, and if at all possible, use a piano to provide a definitive pitch reference. When I work in a classroom setting with beginners, I am constantly amazed at how much faster the classes with whom I use piano progress. The aural reference is subconcious, and I know it's not an inspiration to them because of my marvelous piano skills (let's just say there are people who will pay me NOT to play piano . . . ), but they're in LISTENING mode from the start. They key in on both the pitch and rhythm of the piano, and from the very beginning the concept of ensemble, of playing WITH others is a given. "Begin with the end in mind" is a buzzphrase in many fields. In music, it is seldom used, but what is the end to which we are guiding the students? To be clarinet players, trombone players, flutists, or to be musicians? Chris I don't want to be harsh or start a war, but this is just the kind of thing that takes students years to unlearn so they can just listen their way to the correct position. Some never get over it. Students that come to me having been taught to feel for the positions, almost without exception, have poor intonation. And musical concepts are a mystery to them. Teach them the sound of a Db and they will know where 5th position is when they hear themselves playing the correct sound. This can be taught the first day. It's easy on the first day. The student has no knowledge. The big challenge for the teacher is to try to keep the student aware of the true process that he or she was following that led to their success in knowing where the position is. That is, sound first; technique second. This is the natural order of things. However, for what ever reason, humans seem to want to rely on the gained knowledge, instead of on what got them the knowledge to begin with. So, by the second week or so, if the teacher is not vigilant, students begin to put the slide where they think the position is instead of listening. Adios budding young virtuoso. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Dan Traugh [SMTP:Dan_Traugh@fcasd.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 8:04 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Teaching slide positions to beginners I have posted a page on my instrumental music site on this subject. I would appreciate any feedback you may care to give. http://fcweb.fcasd.edu/~Dan_Traugh/slidepositions.htm -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:55:39 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'Dan Traugh'" , "trombone-l@po.missouri.edu" Subject: RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: <01C19F34.BE1138C0.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Dan Traugh [SMTP:Dan_Traugh@fcasd.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 8:40 AM To: sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org; trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org writes: > So, by the second week or so, if the teacher is >not vigilant, students begin to put the slide where they think the >position >is instead of listening. My intention here is not to de-emphasize listening which I assumed to be an obvious goal. Many people (especially non- trombonists) are constantly complaining about how "hard" using the slide is when my point is that this is unfounded. This I would agree with. Would it surprise you to know that at the beginning level most students would have no idea what to listen for or even what out of tune sounds like? Yes it would. Just about every kid on the planet has been singing songs long before the age they would typically begin trombone. It is not necessary to know what out of tune sounds like. The only ability required is to be able to recognize the point at which one thing sounds different from another. I have never had a student who could not do this. This is why all those old method books are filled with popular songs of the day. Absolutely teach intonation but don't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Give them (and their teachers) something to use in the meantime. Students should begin at the point of their experience. That's going to be sound. No "meantime" is necessary. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:11:19 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: "sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/17/02 10:33 AM, Steve Gamble at sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org sent forth into the cosmos: > I don't want to be harsh or start a war, but this is just the kind of thing > that takes students years to unlearn so they can just listen their way to > the correct position. Some never get over it. Students that come to me > having been taught to feel for the positions, almost without exception, > have poor intonation. And musical concepts are a mystery to them. Teach > them the sound of a Db and they will know where 5th position is when they > hear themselves playing the correct sound. This can be taught the first > day. It's easy on the first day. The student has no knowledge. The big > challenge for the teacher is to try to keep the student aware of the true > process that he or she was following that led to their success in knowing > where the position is. That is, sound first; technique second. This is > the natural order of things. However, for what ever reason, humans seem to > want to rely on the gained knowledge, instead of on what got them the > knowledge to begin with. So, by the second week or so, if the teacher is > not vigilant, students begin to put the slide where they think the position > is instead of listening. Adios budding young virtuoso. > > Steve Gamble > Librarian > Tucson Symphony Orchestra > 2175 N. 6th Ave. > Tucson, AZ 85705 > (520) 792-9155 x118 > (520) 792-9314 fax > sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org > Steve- You make some good points. I get reminded to use my ear whenever I've been playing my large tenor for a while, then I pick up my small tenor, and the slide positions are farther out than my arm remembers. The same happens if I try out a 42B, and carried to an extreme when I play alto. Of course, I have seven instruments that I play regularly, and a beginner typically only has one. The best approach may be to use both methods, with, of course, the right pitch having precedence over arm position. That said, some students will NEVER hear the right pitch(or even the right partial!), but if they get in the ballpark using the arm feedback, and they have fun/get some benefit from playing music, then why not? The ones who CAN hear pitches well will tend to rely more on their ear, but face it, we all use our arm/kinesthetic awareness to help out in varying degrees. The Zen archer hits the target because he's programmed every motion into achieving his result, PLUS being supremly aware of his surroundings and how he fits into them. Zen Trombonists? Try playing Remington's Long Tone Study (#1) while blindfolded... ;-) Walter Barrett SENZA SORDINO: a term used to remind the player that he forgot to put his mute on a few measures back. PASSING TONE: frequently heard near the baked beans at family barbecues. Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:21:44 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Teaching slide positions to beginners Message-ID: <01C19F38.62AD6400.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Barrett wrote: Zen Trombonists? Try playing Remington's Long Tone Study (#1) while blindfolded... ;-) Hey thanks! I needed an excuse to get away from my desk and practice for a while. I'll just close my eyes, though. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Walter Barrett [SMTP:wbarrett@bestweb.net] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 9:11 AM To: sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org; Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Teaching slide positions to beginners on 1/17/02 10:33 AM, Steve Gamble at sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org sent forth into the cosmos: > I don't want to be harsh or start a war, but this is just the kind of thing > that takes students years to unlearn so they can just listen their way to > the correct position. Some never get over it. Students that come to me > having been taught to feel for the positions, almost without exception, > have poor intonation. And musical concepts are a mystery to them. Teach > them the sound of a Db and they will know where 5th position is when they > hear themselves playing the correct sound. This can be taught the first > day. It's easy on the first day. The student has no knowledge. The big > challenge for the teacher is to try to keep the student aware of the true > process that he or she was following that led to their success in knowing > where the position is. That is, sound first; technique second. This is > the natural order of things. However, for what ever reason, humans seem to > want to rely on the gained knowledge, instead of on what got them the > knowledge to begin with. So, by the second week or so, if the teacher is > not vigilant, students begin to put the slide where they think the position > is instead of listening. Adios budding young virtuoso. > > Steve Gamble > Librarian > Tucson Symphony Orchestra > 2175 N. 6th Ave. > Tucson, AZ 85705 > (520) 792-9155 x118 > (520) 792-9314 fax > sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org > Steve- You make some good points. I get reminded to use my ear whenever I've been playing my large tenor for a while, then I pick up my small tenor, and the slide positions are farther out than my arm remembers. The same happens if I try out a 42B, and carried to an extreme when I play alto. Of course, I have seven instruments that I play regularly, and a beginner typically only has one. The best approach may be to use both methods, with, of course, the right pitch having precedence over arm position. That said, some students will NEVER hear the right pitch(or even the right partial!), but if they get in the ballpark using the arm feedback, and they have fun/get some benefit from playing music, then why not? The ones who CAN hear pitches well will tend to rely more on their ear, but face it, we all use our arm/kinesthetic awareness to help out in varying degrees. The Zen archer hits the target because he's programmed every motion into achieving his result, PLUS being supremly aware of his surroundings and how he fits into them. Zen Trombonists? Try playing Remington's Long Tone Study (#1) while blindfolded... ;-) Walter Barrett SENZA SORDINO: a term used to remind the player that he forgot to put his mute on a few measures back. PASSING TONE: frequently heard near the baked beans at family barbecues. Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:15:23 -0600 From: "Kevin Saunders" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Comments Needed - Mouthpiece holder Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colleagues, I have designed a new product that may be of interest and value to you. I am sending these mouthpiece holders to select friends and colleagues for evaluation and wanted to share the pictures with you. They have not been priced yet, but I am interested in your input regarding the following: 1) I have designed them to hold 2, 3, 4, or 5 trombone mouthpieces with a bass shank. Tenor shank fits attractively in the larger hole and is shown in the picture. Are these variations what you would want for your studio or gig, or are there others? 2) They are made from Cherry, sanded and waxed. This means they will not scratch fine furniture, but do not have cork or felt on the bottom that would be torn off in a gig bag. Is this the preferred way to finish the bottom? 3) I have not priced them, but have an idea of cost using high quality hardwoods and CNC manufacturing to assure very consistent quality. a) What do you think a fair price is? b) Should I consider exotic woods for more $$? BTW, The mouthpieces shown are Gary Greenhoe's HOT new mouthpieces that we designed based on his knowledge of what "works". I can assure you that he knows his stuff. Other than my 1G for bass, there is a set of mouthpieces with the same rim for all: Large Orchestral Tenor, Solo or Principal Orchestral Tenor, .525 bore optimized, and alto or small tenor. They have had mass removed in many places to facilitate response while keeping a big sound potential. Here is the url to photos on my website: http://www.kevingsaunders.com/mouthpiece_holder.htm I appreciate any and all comments. I have made a small prototyping run of these and will be offering them for sale when I get comments back from colleagues like you. I greatly appreciate your feedback. Thanks for your time. Kevin Saunders KGS Technology - Business and Industrial Design Consulting http://www.kevingsaunders.com kevin@kevingsaunders.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:18:47 EST From: Sldtbn@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Civic Orchestra of Chicago Message-ID: <104.f8320b4.29786177@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_104.f8320b4.29786177_boundary" They will making this a chamber group for the next season, due to budget restrictions and financial woes. ÊThis comes as a surprise to all of us (I have played with that group). ÊInterestingly, though, they seem to be able to do a national audition tour. ÊMaybe they should charge for tickets....? Tom ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:45:33 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'Sldtbn@aol.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Civic Orchestra of Chicago Message-ID: <01C19F44.183FA020.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I played in this group as an alternate for a couple of seasons (long time ago). What an intense experience! This may not be a fair comparison, but this action and school districts cutting music education for budget reasons seem to me to be strikingly similar. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Sldtbn@aol.com [SMTP:Sldtbn@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 10:19 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Civic Orchestra of Chicago << File: ATT00011.htm >> They will making this a chamber group for the next season, due to budget restrictions and financial woes. This comes as a surprise to all of us (I have played with that group). Interestingly, though, they seem to be able to do a national audition tour. Maybe they should charge for tickets....? Tom ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2272--