TROMBONE-L Digest 2271 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) A thought on left handed trombone by "Chris McClure" 2) RE: Lefties by "Kathy-Green -TJ" 3) RE: Lefties by "Daniel Pliskin" 4) RE: Lefties by "Gary Greenhoe" 5) The Way It's Always Been done (Was RE: Lefties) by Listmonitor Trombone-L 6) RE: Lefties by "Daniel Pliskin" 7) Re: A thought on left handed trombone by Bruce Guttman 8) Frackenpohl Pastorale by "Richard Human, Jr." 9) Music notation software by Todd Jonz 10) Tilting Head Back by Matthew Woolly 11) Re: Tilting Head Back by Walter Barrett 12) RE: Tilting Head Back by Steve Gamble 13) Re: Tilting Head Back by Don Long 14) Re: Lefties by "Joe L. Norcross" 15) Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by Larry White 16) Mad Trombonist by tcagle1@jam.rr.com 17) Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? by "Tim Nichols" 18) Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? by "David Pozos" 19) Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music?. by Howard Weiner 20) RE: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 21) Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? by Walter Barrett 22) notation software by "H du Plooy" 23) Re: notation software by Mike Loewen 24) Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music?. by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 25) RE: Tilting Head Back by TboneGib@aol.com 26) Cities Service Band of America by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 27) RE: Tilting Head Back by "Art Triggs" 28) RE: Frackenpohl Pastorale by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:35:17 -0600 From: "Chris McClure" To: Subject: A thought on left handed trombone Message-ID: <004701c19df3$62590720$cc6bddd8@chrismcc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, aside from Slide Hampton, who always plays a straight horn, and plays it left-handed to this day, does ANYBODY play the horn as a "lefty"? There are only two reasons I can think of to play the horn left-handed. 1. There is an obvious personal preference, or perhaps some nerve damage to the other hand/arm which makes it a necessity. 2. For intonation purposes. I do this often, but I am not proficient as a lefty, I use it to make sure my ear is hearing the tone accurately. Not more than 5 to 10 minutes in a practice session. If opposite hand dexterity is desired, piano lessons, or even a hand exerciser (for guitarists) can help develop the fine muscle dexterity sought after. Thanks for the interesting question. I now have formed my own opinion as I get ready to start my own studio. (So my beginners at grade school and middle school age will go traditional.) God Bless, and keep on Sliding! Chris Ann ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:47:55 -0800 From: "Kathy-Green -TJ" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Lefties Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I completely understand both sides of this issue. I don't know how hard it would be to switch to right from left after a while, particularly for a young person. However... If I can liken this (and I probably can't) to a drummer who starts playing with a "left handed" setup. I got a kid in my high school jazz band a few years ago who had been playing left handed setup for about 8 years. I simply could not get him to switch and I got tired of fighting the parents. I had another drummer who set it up correctly. Because I certainly never knew when I passed out music and assigned parts what concert or competition order was going to be, I had to have some odd order of music from time to time. I say try to get the kid to switch now. If for no other reason than he doesn't want to look different than the others - this often works for most kids, because they never want to be different. Musically, if he never plays an F-attachment, I don't see a problem. I have had two students in my career who had physical disabilities and who played trombone and french horn with the wrong hand. Musically they did just fine. Kathy Green, Band Director Thomas Jefferson High School Music has the power of producing a certain effect on the moral character of the soul, and if it has the power to do this, it is clear that the young must be directed to music and must be educated in it. (Aristotle, Politics) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:01:18 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Lefties Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I donāt see why the student canāt be told of all the issues and make up his/her own mind, as to whether to switch to playing right-handed, or not. That way there wonāt be hard feelings one way or the other. If not being able to play in marching band is one of the issues; if not being able to play attachments is an issue, the student can decide. Iāve found that itās really important to be perfectly honest about the importance of issues, with kids. If you force a student to play right-handed and that student discovers that some great trombonists have played left-handed, youāve lost all your credibility. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:28:15 -0600 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Lefties Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dan .. Hee, hee...so we're officially into the touchy-feely mode now? I think you are on to something. Don't tell kids what to do...let them decide! Wow...what a concept. Does that also apply to sex, drugs, school, cleaning up, to say nothing of homework. Maybe he'd rather wear a dress! Why should we assume that he's not gay. What ever happened to the days when students respected the wisdom and guidance of professional adults? Nevermind.....that goes back to my childhood... Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 7:01 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Lefties I donāt see why the student canāt be told of all the issues and make up his/her own mind, as to whether to switch to playing right-handed, or not. That way there wonāt be hard feelings one way or the other. If not being able to play in marching band is one of the issues; if not being able to play attachments is an issue, the student can decide. Iāve found that itās really important to be perfectly honest about the importance of issues, with kids. If you force a student to play right-handed and that student discovers that some great trombonists have played left-handed, youāve lost all your credibility. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:44:10 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Trombone-L Subject: The Way It's Always Been done (Was RE: Lefties) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I feel this is quite relevant to this discussion: Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result - all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it. Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been done around here. -- --------------------------------------- trombone-l digest archives and useful trombone-l information are available at http://www.trombone.org/trombone-l ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:51:28 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Lefties Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hee, hee...so we're officially into the touchy-feely mode now? I think you are on to something. Don't tell kids what to do...let them decide! Wow...what a concept. Does that also apply to sex, drugs, school, Gary, I didnāt raise the question of drugs, not wanting to start an endless thread, but Iām glad you mentioned it. Iād say that the failure of our domestic war on drugs is primarily due to our lack of truth about the effects of drugs. By lumping pot with hard drugs and by not including alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceuticals, as drugs, which have problems similar to those of pot, we gave kids the message that we werenāt to be trusted. At that point there was no reason for them to not trust their friends and try pot, alcohol and tobacco. I know people that simply forbid their kids from using drugs. Their kids used drugs anyway. But instead of their having something to share with their kids, about the problems of using drugs, they didnāt find out about it until the kids had real problems. In contrast, we let our kids know that we tried a few drugs, in the Ī60s and that drugs like LSD wonāt kill you, as long as you donāt do something stupid like drive, while on it, or try to find God, by taking way, way too much of it. We also let our kids know that driving drunk was way more dangerous than driving stoned, and we told our daughters that getting wasted on anything, left you vulnerable to being date-raped. We wound up with some of the most reasonable and responsible kids in their age groups and we also had their friends come talk with us about things that they couldnāt talk with their parents about. They trusted us to give them straight information. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldās largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:47:19 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: A thought on left handed trombone Message-ID: <200201151647_MC3-EDFB-9C50@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There was one other famous trombone player who played "lefty": Hoyt Bohannon. Bohannon was a well respected sideman in the Big Band era, and settled in the LA area to play for the studios. You have probably heard him on a lot of cartoons: wild glisses and other acrobatics. He was also the Principal of the Glendale Symphony, and was one of three known people who played the Schilkret Trombone Concerto originally written for Tommy Dorsey. Still, lefty trombone players are very rare; even rare in proportion to the population of trombone players. By all means, talk about the few greats who played lefty, but note that there were a lot more who played righty, even if they did everything else lefty! Bruce Guttman Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:32:42 -0600 From: "Richard Human, Jr." To: Trombone List Subject: Frackenpohl Pastorale Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings, I'd like to solicit opinions about the Frackenpohl "Pastorale" for trombone and band. I have the opportunity to do some playing with a band and need a a piece that is easy to put together (limited rehearsals!). Does anyone have experience with this piece? Thank you. Richard -- Dr. Richard Human Jr. richard@trombone.org Assistant Professor of Music Trombone and Music Theory Mississippi State University Office: (662) 325-2871 Founder, Webmaster and Publisher trombone.org: A web site for trombonists. http://www.trombone.org/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:02:30 -0800 From: Todd Jonz To: Trombone-L mailing list Subject: Music notation software Message-ID: <20020115170230.K23580@tj.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Erik Berggren writes: > Sometime back someone passed along a web site where one > could find a free download of Finale Note Pad, a very > simple version, no doubt. Do any of you know whether > this is something that is still available and, if so, > what the site is? For those not familiar with it, I thought this might be a good time to put in a plug for the low-cost music notation software that I've been using for the last few months. MUP (short for "music publisher") is a shareware music notation system written by a pair of (presumably) starving musicians and software engineers. Unlike most of its commercial competitors, MUP is not a WYSIWYG system; rather, it is text-based, command line application that reads text input and generates PostScript output. Although many folks are initially put off by this, there are several testimonials on the MUP web site from converts who found that getting work done with MUP actually took less time than using the popular WYSIWYG systems. Another advantage of a text-based, command line application like MUP is that it runs on all major platforms (Windows, Mac, and UNIX), a factor which strongly influenced my decision as a Linux user. MUP is similar in concept to the older ABC system (although I found MUP's notational conventions easier to use and much more flexible than ABC) and the GNU Lilypond system (which I did not evaluate due to political differences I have with the GNU project and the FSF.) I've been using MUP for quartet arrangements, and can generate a full conductor's score or individual parts with a simple command line option. Transposition of parts and/or full scores is another powerful feature that I haven't used yet but expect to in the near future (e.g. transpose a trumpet part for horn, change the key for an entire piece, etc.) Another useful feature that may be of interest to some of you is support for guitar tablature and grids. MUP can can generate MIDI files, which I've found useful for "proofreading" scores. You'll find a full description of MUP's capabilities, including some sample MUP files and a fully functional version of MUP for Windows or UNIX that can be downloaded for free, at: http://www.arkkra.com/ There's also a pointer to the Mac version, which was developed by someone other than the original authors. The free version of the software puts a rather annoying watermark on all output, but this "feature" is disabled if you decide to register your copy for a mere $29. Registration also entitles you to download future versions at no additional charge. Disclaimer: my only relationship with MUP's creators, Arkkra Enterprises, is that of a satisfied customer. -- Todd Jonz When cryptography is outlawed, todd@tj.org bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:47:29 -0600 From: Matthew Woolly To: Trombone L-List Subject: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: <3C44BF90.CCC50485@ddci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey ya'll, My lesson teacher has told me that i need to tilt my head back, and tilt my mouthpiece down. I can't produce a sound this way, and when I try to play this way, I look rather absurd. Anybody know what I need to do? Thanks, Matthew Woolly ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:59:41 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/15/02 6:47 PM, Matthew Woolly at bandboy089@ddci.net sent forth into the cosmos: > Hey ya'll, > > My lesson teacher has told me that i need to tilt my head back, and tilt > my mouthpiece down. I can't produce a sound this way, and when I try to > play this way, I look rather absurd. Anybody know what I need to do? > > Thanks, > Matthew Woolly > > So, why does he want you to do this? The main reason to tilt anything one way or the other is to get a better distribution of pressure on top/bottom lips. Sometimes you can get a double tone if you play loud, plus not have enough pressure/support on the bottom lip. Sometimes you need to change how you place the mpce. top to bottom. (Most folks are AROUND 50/50, maybe 60/40 top/bottom) If that's in the ballpark, then build up the strength/finesse of your lower lip with long tones. Keep your lower lip flat, or slightly curled in, don't let it protrude into the mpce., or flap around wildly on loud notes. Bear in mind that the trombone is already a fairly absurd looking instrument; don't look in the mirror so much when you practice! (Mandatory humor disclosure...) Tell us more! Walter Barrett " The good Doctor said she was nervous, and, to relieve her, proposed a round game at cards; of which he knew as much as of the art of playing the trombone." -Charles Dickens "David Copperfield" Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:13:32 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'bandboy089@ddci.net'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: <01C19DF8.BA9287E0.sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew, The angle of your horn should be one that lets your lips vibrate the easiest. It's not the same for everybody. Try to buzz a middle register note with just your lips. Once you get the buzz going well, lightly place the mouthpiece squarely over the center of the buzz with the pressure fairly evenly distributed over the entire rim of the mouthpiece. Note the angle your mouthpiece. This angle is a good starting point for the angle you should be using when you play. If it turns out you're blowing into the floor too much, you might have to tilt your head back a bit. But don't do anything that is unnatural or uncomfortable. It will cause too much strain and many aspects of your playing will be hindered. Steve Gamble Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Woolly [SMTP:bandboy089@ddci.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 4:47 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Tilting Head Back Hey ya'll, My lesson teacher has told me that i need to tilt my head back, and tilt my mouthpiece down. I can't produce a sound this way, and when I try to play this way, I look rather absurd. Anybody know what I need to do? Thanks, Matthew Woolly ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:16:42 -0500 (EST) From: Don Long To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: <200201160216.VAA12965@cshp048.cs.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: jdsNOyHWZYYJb8HL6SA/nQ== Matthew, I'll probably get reamed for this, but my personal opinion would be to look for another teacher! I find it hard to believe that a teacher is advocating anything but keeping the head in an upright, relaxed position. Most of us have a overbite that leaves the horn pointed down a little, but tilting the head back is ludicrous! OK, now I've said that, and thinking about how I play, I suspect that I tilt my head back a little, to bring the horn up. I hope it's not a lot. I push my lower jaw out to keep from having the horn down as well. Good idea? Works OK for me. Guess we'll have to see what the pro teachers have to say! Don Long > From owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Tue Jan 15 18:09:05 2002 > > > Hey ya'll, > > My lesson teacher has told me that i need to tilt my head back, and tilt > my mouthpiece down. I can't produce a sound this way, and when I try to > play this way, I look rather absurd. Anybody know what I need to do? > > Thanks, > Matthew Woolly > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:02:32 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Lefties Message-ID: <005601c19e3a$3f74de40$86d8aec7@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Everyone, lets not get petty. I have dabbled a little on Horn and do not find it hard to learn as a righty. We need understand that somethings work best as designed. The only time I would encourage a person to play left handed was if his physical condition was such that he could only play it as a lefty. James Burke and Winy Manone were two cornet/trumpeters to play lefty. They had to, no usable right arms. Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: RE: Lefties > Dan .. > > Hee, hee...so we're officially into the touchy-feely mode now? I think you > are on to something. Don't tell kids what to do...let them decide! > Wow...what a concept. > > Does that also apply to sex, drugs, school, cleaning up, to say nothing of > homework. Maybe he'd rather wear a dress! Why should we assume that he's > not gay. > > What ever happened to the days when students respected the wisdom and > guidance of professional adults? Nevermind.....that goes back to my > childhood... > Gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 7:01 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: RE: Lefties > > > > I don't see why the student can't be told of all the issues and make up > his/her own mind, as to whether to switch to playing right-handed, or not. > That way there won't be hard feelings one way or the other. > > If not being able to play in marching band is one of the issues; if not > being able to play attachments is an issue, the student can decide. > > I've found that it's really important to be perfectly honest about the > importance of issues, with kids. If you force a student to play > right-handed and that student discovers that some great trombonists have > played left-handed, you've lost all your credibility. > > DanP > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:50:22 -0800 From: Larry White To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: <3C44F87E.8C5CEE8F@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------29F8AFCD988A8DEEAAF77099" Some of us are allowed to offer an opinion, only to the person in the mirror or the one we sit across from the breaky table!! :>) Don't take it too seriously. Best be to try and invent a left hand trombone and write music especially for it. Who was the composer that wrote the piano solo for left hand only? At least that is a different opinion! Cheers. Larry White richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote: Well, shoot, I thought I was allowed an opinion, even if it is contrary to CAAS (commonly accepted as true) list wisdom. Guess not. Later. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Greenhoe [mailto:gary@greenhoe.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 5:19 PM To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL; Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Left Handed Trombone Tim, Give us all a break. The kid has had two lessons...one right handed...one left. You've probably read 20 posts on this subject from lefties saying it does not matter. It may even be beneficial to play the horn right handed. I mentioned that I played right handed from age 5. I often tried playing left handed just to see what it felt like. It really doesn't amount to a hill of beans! So, what most of us are telling you and original questioner....just do it! Can we move on? Regards, Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:38 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Left Handed Trombone He is 11. And you want to give him the anguish now and save it later. If he were 31 you would be correct. If he were 21 you would be correct. But he is not. He is 11. I am 48 and I could not possibly remember what it is like to be 11. Fortunately I have an 11 year old child. Give him a break. And maybe make a musician out of him. -Tim ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:07:35 -0800 From: tcagle1@jam.rr.com To: TROMBONE-L@po.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Mad Trombonist Message-ID: <200201160407.g0G47Zs30796@machiavellian.com> THIS WAS JUST TOO INTERESTING TO PASS UP Steve Cagle 1998 Urban Legend: Mad Trombonist: In a misplaced moment of inspiration, Paolo Esperanza, bass-trombonist with the Symphonica Maya de Uruguay, decided to make his own contribution to the cannon shots fired during a performance of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overt.... http://DarwinAwards.com/legends/legends1998-17.html?email + + + + + + + + + + Your friend (tcagle1@jam.rr.com) thought you would like this Darwin Award. Check it out and see for yourself! Our macabre awards commemorate people who eliminate themselves from the gene pool by masterminding idiotic misadventures. Sign up for our twice-monthly newsletter with the link below. All email addresses are kept private. Regards from Darwin ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:19:28 -0800 From: "Tim Nichols" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Does anyone know if, by any chance, the written Trombone and/or Tuba music for Mexican Ranchera/Norteno music is routinely notated in transposed B-FLAT BASS CLEF? Iām NOT asking about B-flat treble clef, like treble clef Baritone, but music written on a BASS CLEF staff that sounds a major second lower than written. For example, written C sounds the pitch B-flat. In other words, like B-flat Trumpet music dropped one octave, and written in Bass Clef. At first I assumed that my new Mexican adult beginning valve trombone student was just misinformed regarding individual note fingerings by a well-intentioned trumpet player who didn't realize that bass clef instruments generally do not transpose, but his Spanish Language *How To Play Valve Trombone* instruction book was mostly written in the keys of C and G, just like beginning books for B-flat trumpet. Does this alone indicate that the exercises were transposed? I can't decide. I have taught Low Brass in San Diego (20 miles North of Tijuana) for many years, but have never encountered this particular problem before. The possibility of transposed B-flat bass clef never occurred to me until last night. It still seems very odd to me, but I suppose that could be a cultural thing. Still, I have never encountered it, anywhere. Any ideas, anybody? Lastly, although traditional Norteno/Ranchera music is primarily an aural tradition, being passed along from player to player, this student has expressed an interest in learning to read music, I am not imposing it upon him. Also, he is not musically experienced enough to be able to understand my dilemma, he just wants to learn to play valve trombone, which I am confident that I can help him do. My only question is one of notational convention. TIM NICHOLS ===================================================================== San Diego/California/USA GPS Coordinates: N32”44.889' W117”03.145' Elevation: 462 feet above sea level. ===================================================================== Know a dog with arthritis or hip dysplasia? Click here for FREE help! http://www.freeyellow.com/members5/sabakasling/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 02:09:42 -0600 From: "David Pozos" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? Message-ID: <000901c19e65$26e34a80$4bc2180a@xal.megared.net.mx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here in Mexico I have seen more valve trombones in C than in Bb. I cannot say that all ranchero bands play C valves but most community type bands that have valve bones use valves in C. When I see valve bones on the TV play norte–o tunes (the ones with sousaphones) they look to be in Bb but it«s hard to tell. In Oaxaca they play C valve bones but don«t transpose, their music is regular bass clef. But some play C valve and read Bb treble clef! Most of the kids were studying from a book called "Tromb—n de Pistones" by G. ParŽs, a french publication. It starts out by telling you that you should know how to read bass clef in the normal position and bass clef positioned over the third line. In other words you play F where we normally play D! I taught a masterclass in a remote region in the mountains of Oaxaca. This one very small town had a music school for the indigenous people there. They had a band, the town had a separate band for mostly adults (and student ringers) and also a band for the older folks. All complete instrumentation. I would ask a kid to play a Bb scale and get a C lots of times. Just a bit confusing! I guess this dosen«t help much but it was fun to write about. Take care. David Pozos Primer Tromb—n Orquesta Sinf—nica de Xalapa www.sinfonicadexalapa.com ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Tim Nichols" Para: "Trombones and related issues forum." Enviado: MiŽrcoles, 16 de Enero de 2002 12:19 a.m. Asunto: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? > Does anyone know if, by any chance, the written Trombone and/or Tuba music > for Mexican Ranchera/Norteno music is routinely notated in transposed B-FLAT > BASS CLEF? IÕm NOT asking about B-flat treble clef, like treble clef > Baritone, but music written on a BASS CLEF staff that sounds a major second > lower than written. For example, written C sounds the pitch B-flat. In other > words, like B-flat Trumpet music dropped one octave, and written in Bass > Clef. > > At first I assumed that my new Mexican adult beginning valve trombone > student was just misinformed regarding individual note fingerings by a > well-intentioned trumpet player who didn't realize that bass clef > instruments generally do not transpose, but his Spanish Language *How To > Play Valve Trombone* instruction book was mostly written in the keys of C > and G, just like beginning books for B-flat trumpet. Does this alone > indicate that the exercises were transposed? I can't decide. > > I have taught Low Brass in San Diego (20 miles North of Tijuana) for many > years, but have never encountered this particular problem before. The > possibility of transposed B-flat bass clef never occurred to me until last > night. It still seems very odd to me, but I suppose that could be a cultural > thing. Still, I have never encountered it, anywhere. Any ideas, anybody? > > Lastly, although traditional Norteno/Ranchera music is primarily an aural > tradition, being passed along from player to player, this student has > expressed an interest in learning to read music, I am not imposing it upon > him. Also, he is not musically experienced enough to be able to understand > my dilemma, he just wants to learn to play valve trombone, which I am > confident that I can help him do. My only question is one of notational > convention. > > > TIM NICHOLS > > ===================================================================== > San Diego/California/USA > GPS Coordinates: > N32”44.889' W117”03.145' > Elevation: 462 feet above sea level. > > ===================================================================== > Know a dog with arthritis or hip dysplasia? Click here for FREE help! > http://www.freeyellow.com/members5/sabakasling/ > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:20:52 From: Howard Weiner To: nichols_tim@hotmail.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music?. Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20020116112052.0dff7e28@mail.sampo.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 22:19 15.01.2002 -0800, Tim Nichols wrote: >I have taught Low Brass in San Diego (20 miles North of Tijuana) for many >years, but have never encountered this particular problem before. The >possibility of transposed B-flat bass clef never occurred to me until last >night. It still seems very odd to me, but I suppose that could be a cultural >thing. Still, I have never encountered it, anywhere. Any ideas, anybody? The first thing that comes to my mind are the tenor tuba parts to "Heldenleben" and "Don Quixote" which are at least partially in Bb bass clef, if I remember correctly. I also have a Dutch edition of the Beethoven "Equali" that has bass clef parts in C and Bb. So this is not just a Mexican phenomenon. And at 02:09 16.01.2002 -0600, David Pozos wrote: >Most of the kids were studying from a book called "Tromb—n de Pistones" by >G. ParŽs, a french publication. It starts out by telling you that you should >know how to read bass clef in the normal position and bass clef positioned >over the third line. In other words you play F where we normally play D! An F-clef positioned on the third line is not bass clef, but baritone clef. In the music of the late-16th and 17th centuries (Gabrieli & Co.) one often encounters trombone parts in baritone clef. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" - attributed to Frank Zappa "Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen" - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:41:48 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: eljaywhite@telus.net Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F79E@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C19E8B.29EC0160" Hey, I was in a bad mood and I got snippy. I apologize. Let's move on. But with respect to students, all students, a good teacher fits the instruction to the student. One size does not fit all. Some lefties will switch easily and some not at all. I argue for careful understanding of each individual, and think that blanket advice to switch them all to right handed is an extremely wrongheaded position.Ź yours, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Larry White [mailto:eljaywhite@telus.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 10:50 PM To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Cc: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Left Handed Trombone - ONE LINER Some of us are allowed to offer an opinion, only to the person in the mirror or the one we sit across from the breaky table!! :>) Don't take it too seriously. Best be to try and invent a left hand trombone and write music especially for it. Who was the composer that wrote the piano solo for left hand only? At least that is a different opinion! Cheers. Larry White richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote: Well, shoot, I thought I was allowed an opinion, even if it is contrary to CAAS (commonly accepted as true) list wisdom. Guess not. Later. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Greenhoe [mailto:gary@greenhoe.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 5:19 PM To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL; Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Left Handed Trombone Tim, Give us all a break. The kid has had two lessons...one right handed...one left. You've probably read 20 posts on this subject from lefties saying it does not matter. It may even be beneficial to play the horn right handed. I mentioned that I played right handed from age 5. I often tried playing left handed just to see what it felt like. It really doesn't amount to a hill of beans! So, what most of us are telling you and original questioner....just do it! Can we move on? Regards, Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:38 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Left Handed Trombone He is 11. And you want to give him the anguish now and save it later. If he were 31 you would be correct. If he were 21 you would be correct. But he is not. He is 11. I am 48 and I could not possibly remember what it is like to be 11. Fortunately I have an 11 year old child. Give him a break. And maybe make a musician out of him. -Tim ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:47:48 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music? Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/16/02 1:19 AM, Tim Nichols at nichols_tim@hotmail.com sent forth into the cosmos: > At first I assumed that my new Mexican adult beginning valve trombone > student was just misinformed regarding individual note fingerings by a > well-intentioned trumpet player who didn't realize that bass clef > instruments generally do not transpose, but his Spanish Language *How To > Play Valve Trombone* instruction book was mostly written in the keys of C > and G, just like beginning books for B-flat trumpet. Does this alone > indicate that the exercises were transposed? I can't decide. > > I have taught Low Brass in San Diego (20 miles North of Tijuana) for many > years, but have never encountered this particular problem before. The > possibility of transposed B-flat bass clef never occurred to me until last > night. It still seems very odd to me, but I suppose that could be a cultural > thing. Still, I have never encountered it, anywhere. Any ideas, anybody? Tim- It's possible that it could be transposed Bb Bass clef.Mostly you see that in the Netherlands in euph parts, these days. However, another possibility is that the book is written for valve trombone in C. I remember reading in an old Vincent Bach catalog that their Bass Trumpet was available in Bb or C, and that the C was popular in Mexico and South America. (Maybe David Pozos can shed some light on this?) Anyway, it would explain why a written D would be fingered 1 &3, according to your book. -- Walter Barrett Dopeler effect: the tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:05:20 +0200 From: "H du Plooy" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: notation software Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe this has been covered before, but I don't recall it. I was wondering if there are any of you out there who use linux as a primary OS and have any software to do anything music related under linux - sound recording/editing/mixing and more importantly, music notation. Thanks Hans == Brought to you by Ananzi Mail [http://mail.ananzi.co.za] ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:12:06 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Loewen To: H du Plooy Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: notation software Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, H du Plooy wrote: > Maybe this has been covered before, but I don't recall it. > I was wondering if there are any of you out there who use > linux as a primary OS and have any software to do anything > music related under linux - sound recording/editing/mixing > and more importantly, music notation. My audio workstation is a Windows machine, but I use Linux for other things. There's a great resource page that lists a wide variety of software for Linux sound, MIDI and notation: http://www.bright.net/~dlphilp/linuxsound/ Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:13:17 -0500 (EST) From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Transposed B-flat BASS CLEF/ Mexican Pop Music?. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some of the "free for the downloading" band music on the Library of Congress' web site has Bb bass clef parts. Whatever the part was (I think often euphonium or "bass horn"--not one of the tuba parts), it was duplicating another voice so we didn't have to worry about one of the euphoniums or the bass trombone fainting from shock. I wouldn't have noticed it until someone tried to play it except for when sorting the parts, having the key signature give it away. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:13:20 EST From: TboneGib@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: <130.7c4f973.2976e480@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_130.7c4f973.2976e480_boundary" Matthew, Without actually seeing what you're doing, it's hard for us to give you insight. However, here are some things to think about: 1) Many players "reach" towards the horn with their heads. BAD habit! Before bringing the horn up to your face, put your body in its most relaxed, upright position. (Imagine a cable running out the top of your head, suspending you from the sky). You should feel tall and light in your chair or as you stand....as if you could fly up out of the chair at any moment. You'll notice that when everything is set up just right, your shoulders are relaxed and broad, your head is balancing with no musuclar effort, and the pelvis is rotated forward ever so slightly. BALANCE and CALM are the effects. 2) Once you've achieved BALANCE and CALM, only then will you BRING THE HORN ALL THE WAY TO YOUR FACE WITH YOUR ARMS. Don't meet the horn half-way or go reaching out for it with the neck. STAY in your upright position, form your best embouchure, and let the horn meet the face so that you feel gentle and equal pressure around 360 degrees of the rim. That's your ideal posture! As you feed air to the horn, then, the airstream should be aimed straight down the throat of the mouthpiece. Tom Gibson Brass Dept. Coordinator Georgia State University tbonegib@aol.com ph: (404) 651-1740 trombonelessons.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:03:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Cities Service Band of America Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just received a photo (would not reproduce well enough to identify individuals) and personnel list from when Abe Torchinsky was playing with the band. (Names as they appear on the personnel roster) Baritones Simone Mantia Egidio Morra Enrico Bozzacco Trombones Neal DiBiase Frank Saracco Al Philburn Abraham Pearlstein Charles Butterfield William Trone John Clark Tubas William Bell Fred Pfaff Abraham Torchinsky Joseph Tarto ... Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:04:40 EST From: "Art Triggs" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Tilting Head Back Message-ID: <3c459688.8667.0@bestweb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew, This is a fairly simple thing to correct, position your head and neck where your airway is the least constricted, there are probably as many ways to figure this out as there are list members, so here is my .02, Without your trombone , Tilt your head all the way back, and as you move it all the way down, you will feel a spot where your breathing is not constricted by the position of you head and neck, it is in a different place for everyone, but generally speaking you head will make a "2" (more or less) when you are most comfortable, (I'm sure this loses something in the translation....) Next, bring your trombone up to your face and play, more than likely it will be pointing almost straight out,taking into account how your face is shaped. You can also test this by playing a string of middle f's or Bb's, tounged quarters at a comfortable tempo, and start with you head pointing almost all the way down at the floor, slowly move your head upwards while you are playing,until your sound opens up, and your throat and tounge do not feel constricted, this will probably be in pretty much the same place as the other test. When you place the mouthpiece on your chops,The feeling should be one of you chasing the horn, not the horn chasing you, There needs to be a seal around the mouthpiece, but not so much pressure so that you disturb the your inner embouchure (what's inside the mouthpiece)and prevent your lips from vibrating...... (after all, if they don't vibrate, you won't be making much in the way of sound ;-)) There, now I've done it....time to grab my flameproof shorts Good Luck Art Triggs > >Matthew, >Without actually seeing what you're doing, it's hard for us to give you >insight. However, here are some things to think about: >1) Many players "reach" towards the horn with their heads. BAD habit! Before >bringing the horn up to your face, put your body in its most relaxed, upright >position. (Imagine a cable running out the top of your head, suspending you >from the sky). You should feel tall and light in your chair or as you >stand....as if you could fly up out of the chair at any moment. You'll notice >that when everything is set up just right, your shoulders are relaxed and >broad, your head is balancing with no musuclar effort, and the pelvis is >rotated forward ever so slightly. BALANCE and CALM are the effects. >2) Once you've achieved BALANCE and CALM, only then will you BRING THE HORN >ALL THE WAY TO YOUR FACE WITH YOUR ARMS. Don't meet the horn half-way or go >reaching out for it with the neck. STAY in your upright position, form your >best embouchure, and let the horn meet the face so that you feel gentle and >equal pressure around 360 degrees of the rim. That's your ideal posture! As >you feed air to the horn, then, the airstream should be aimed straight down >the throat of the mouthpiece. > >Tom Gibson >Brass Dept. Coordinator >Georgia State University >tbonegib@aol.com >ph: (404) 651-1740 >trombonelessons.com > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:30:28 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "'richard@trombone.org'" , "'trombone-l'" Subject: RE: Frackenpohl Pastorale Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E71249A1@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Richard Human, needing something to play without needing a lot of rehearsal time and asked about the Frackenpohl Pastorale. I played it on a graduate recital on the recommendation of my teacher John Hill. The program I had planned wasn't quite long enough but technically rather demanding. Something that was both short and easy seemed to fill the bill. Alas, I have to agree with something Mary Rasmussen wrote in her book on brass literature: she described it and two other pieces as tantalizingly easy to play, but very difficult to make musical sense of. I found it dreadfully dull and have not looked at it since. I don't know if a band accompaniment would help it at all. My knowledge of what is available for trombone and band is limited. I suppose you will be playing with a wind band and what little I know is mostly brass band. But if you can find a standard tune like Londonderry Air or an operatic something or other, you might find it more satisfying. On the other hand, if nothing better suggests itself in the time you have for making your choice, the Pastorale is kind of pretty and doesn't last long enough to be as annoying for the audience as it got for me. Read through it with a piano player and see what you think. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2271--