TROMBONE-L Digest 2037 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) 3 bass trombones for sale by Charles Levine 2) Re: C-Tenor by Craig Parmerlee 3) Re: Alto Trombone, the MF Special by sabutin 4) Re: Nonpareil mute by sabutin 5) Re: Nonpareil mute by Craig Parmerlee 6) Re: Nonpareil mute by Michael Shoshani 7) Re: C-Tenor by "Adrian Drover" 8) To Our Mothers by "Bill Dinwiddie" 9) FS: Collectible H&B Dixie mute. One of a kind by Craig Parmerlee 10) Re: FS: Collectible H&B Dixie mute. One of a kind by Michael Shoshani 11) Re: C-Tenor by "Aaron Roth" 12) Eric Swanson: others please delete by Weston Sprott 13) re: Nonpareil mute by sabutin 14) Re: Nonpareil mute by sabutin 15) Perry Como by Earl Needham 16) Bass sackbut mouthpiece? by Douglas Yeo 17) Re: Bass sackbut mouthpiece? by Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur 18) RE: C-Tenor by "Andrew Elms" 19) Re: Nonpareil mute by Craig Parmerlee 20) Re: Bach Slide by Candice & Eric Swanson 21) RE: C-Tenor by Joshua Sticklorlipson 22) Re: C-Tenor by "Matthew Stoecker" 23) Repairs by andyk@solid-state-logic.com (Andy Kinch) 24) Red spots on thick part of inner-slide by mploumen@dolfijn.nl (mathijs ploumen) 25) Re: C-Tenor by "Adrian Drover" 26) Re: C-Tenor by "Adrian Drover" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 06:57:40 From: Charles Levine To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: 3 bass trombones for sale Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20010513065740.294f31ac@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 62H Conn $2200 Conn 72H $2100 Holton TR 181 $1250 All are in excellent condition (the Conns were just overhauled) all with excellent cases. No dents. Good slides. No mouthpieces. F and D triggers.(Holton also has an Eb slide) Shipping is included (US only) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:04:31 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: C-Tenor Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010513085133.01f57970@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:24 AM 5/13/2001 +0100, Adrian Drover wrote: From: "cworth" > Tenor in C sounds seems to promise a fresh, easier, brilliance to > the section/choir and, apparently (from some of your posts) the C-Tenor > was available at some time in the past (succumbing to Bb ubiquity?). Is there any particular reason why most present day brass instruments, saxes and clarinets are built in Bb and Eb, rather than C and F? Just curious, A I'd say it is all about inertia, not sound. They have always been made that way, so the music is written that way. If somebody would like to rewrite all that Eb and Bb sax music, then maybe a different pitch would take over. Talk about the enduring torture visited upon us by Adolph Sax, yesterday, I saw a demonstration of one of the most complete section of saxes you are likely to find in one place. In included bass (Bb), bari (Eb), Tenor (Bb), Alto (Eb), Soprano (Bb) both styles, straight and upturned bell, and sopranino (Eb). Pure unbridled terror. This was at a party for a lot of school kids. Just think of the bad dreams they will be suffering for years. We might as well schedule the psychotherapy now. Anyway, that critical mass of written music will also probably prevent the adoption of other trombone models as well. It is probably the main reason for the disappearance of F and G bass trombones. If there is a fine difference in timbre between the C and Bb trombones, that is surely a third order infinitesimal, observable only by the most finely tuned ear. I doubt that I could correctly identify C vs. Bb trumpet most of the time. Later, CP ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:04:03 -0400 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Alto Trombone, the MF Special Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1222359829==_ma============" You wrote: >One has to ask why two people at opposite ends of the performance >spectrum both see the alto as having some limitations in volume, >intonation and (maybe) articulation, two other people do not. This points to my assertion of concept. In my experience, few Tenor tombonists play Alto like an Alto: they play it like a Tenor. So, the problems of volume limitations (due to blowing like a tenor), articulation (due to tonguing like a tenor) and intonation (due to adjusting like a tenor) occur. >What brand are you playing, guys? I play a first-run Yamaha Custom with a Minick valve and a bored out Bach 15D mouthpiece. >However, I can't be comletely wrong, as there seems to be some >consensus the alto is a little difficult to play, and we've >certainly all heard it played badly. Refer to my first point. >I mean I HAVE to adjust, more than I want to. Which is an >indication of the overall response of the horn, and likely relates >to the other defects I claim.Ê It could also be an indication of tenor paradigm. I have not found any more intonation issues on alto than on tenor. However, my response to the usual intonation issues on alto is quite different than to the usual intonation issues on tenor. For example: do you find yourself playing flat, and flatter as you go up the register of the instrument? If so, you are trying to blow it like a tenor. >When you say articulation is "no problem," have you listened to a >tape? Yes, I have. Another person described the articulation of the alto is having a bit more point than tenor [sic]. I think that's accurate. >I ask because the first thing that stands out to me, when I >hear an alto played badly by a good performer, is that the tonguing >is so objectional. That's because the tenor-paradigmed player will either 1) slap the alto too hard and create a "whack", or 2) react negatively to the inborne point of the alto and seek to soften it too much, creating a soupy articulation. ================================= I have a question here... Although mostly a tenor trombonist, I play a great deal of bass trombone;I started out my career as an orchestral tubist and still work professionally on tuba (I have played many different sizes and pitches of tuba; from monstrous old BBbs to very delicate playing Fs); I have played valve trombone and euphoniym in professional situations, and, at one time in my life I played a number of gigs on trumpet as well. (Never had much range, but I could pass as a trumpet player up through C above the staff for a half hour or so...) On NONE of these instruments did I have much trouble adjusting my air and tonguing in order be able to produce a mainstream non-orchestral sound and performance, yet almost every alto trombone I try sounds and plays in a very stuffy and almost fussy mnanner. I will admit that I haven't spent a great deal of time practicing (or even trying) alto trombones, but that is only because I have been so thoroughly unimpressed w/most of the ones I have tried. I can adjust easily to a good playing highly resistant (relative to the slide) valve trombone...why is it me and my approach (and that of so many other good jazz players, almost all of whom would welcome any help they can get in the high register, ALL of whom prefer to work much harder on the Bb trombone) that is at fault here? =============================== >Oh well, since I've crossed the personal line a little: when you >play loud, what happens to the tone? Like on a tenor, it gets >brighter, then a little sizzle, then a little metallic, then just >blatty, then just plain bad? Actually, I don't really compare the alto sound to the tenor at all. They are two different things in my mind. The best way I could describe the alto sound is: airy when played soft, melancholy when played medium, and shimmery when played loud. ============================ Exactly. A VERY good description of how the best altos sound when played by fine players. I have nothing against a horn that displays those qualities...but they are simply too limiting for a horn that might be used in broader situations where you want more. FULL when played soft, POWERFUL when played loud... It is not the pitch or size of the horn that limits it in the power or fullness departments...that certainly doesn't happen w/trumpets or french horns, why would it happen w/a trombone? It is the design philosophy of the people who make them. My main question is...why not make a stronger playing one ? Later... S. Hope this helps,a nd feel free to e-mail offlist if you have other questions. ------------------------------------------------------------ --== Sent via Deja.com ==-- http://www.deja.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:28:59 -0400 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Nonpareil mute Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I've tried to post this message twice , but I haven't seen it come through. Sorry if this is a repeat. ============================================ A couple of weeks ago, there was the discussion of using a trumpet "nonpareil" mute together with a plunger. Tom Crown makes a "soft orchestral" aluminum mute that is patterned after the nonppareil. I got one of those. It does give a brilliant edge to the sound, and it goes in far enough that it doesn't interfere with the plunger. But no matter how I try to adjust the placement, it seems to absolutely kill the notes from 3rd space G down to about 3rd line D. Above and below this range, the mute is very useful. In that range, it is not just out of tune -- it is nearly impossible to make those notes sound. It doesn't help to move the mute further out. I note that the H&B Dixie mute doesn't have this problem, but the sound isn't nearly as brilliant. Does anyone have suggestions, or is this just a "live with it" thing. Thanks, Craig ================= Craig... It's a "just live w/it" thing. I generally stay between Bb on top of the bass clef up to D a major tenth higher...Tricky Sam Nanton concentrated 95% of HIS playing between say Eb above the bass clef and Db a minor 7th above. (But what he could do w/ a minor 7th of range was PHENOMENAL !!!) The Pixie mute from H+B (That's PIXIE, not DIXIE...) is much more in tune and is able to be played through the whole horn...it just doesn't have that intensity. A whole 'nother style... Speaking of "in tune"...REALLY great Non Pareil players don't retune their horns when they use the mute; they just learn a whole new set of positions. The rest of us (myself included) have to pull the tuning slide out a LOOOONG way to get the horn in pitch. Later... S. P.S. What note do you mean when you say "3rd space G". I'm assuming you mean 4th space G in the bass clef...? I'm surprised you can play THAT low, and I must admit I've never even TRIED to play that mute in the range below 3rd line D. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:51:52 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: sabutin@mindspring.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Nonpareil mute Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010513093733.01f55ef0@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:28 AM 5/13/2001 -0400, sabutin wrote: It's a "just live w/it" thing. I generally stay between Bb on top of the bass clef up to D a major tenth higher...Tricky Sam Nanton concentrated 95% of HIS playing between say Eb above the bass clef and Db a minor 7th above. (But what he could do w/ a minor 7th of range was PHENOMENAL !!!) That is good to know. Thanks. The Pixie mute from H+B (That's PIXIE, not DIXIE...) is much more in tune and is able to be played through the whole horn...it just doesn't have that intensity. A whole 'nother style... Mine says "New Stone Lined Dixie Straight Mute ' For Plunger Work'" It doesn't say "Pixie" anywhere. I can't remember when I bought it -- probably 15 years ago. Speaking of "in tune"...REALLY great Non Pareil players don't retune their horns when they use the mute; they just learn a whole new set of positions. The rest of us (myself included) have to pull the tuning slide out a LOOOONG way to get the horn in pitch. With this Tom Crown nonpareil copy, the adjustment isn't that much. I guess I have to play the slide out 3/4". P.S. What note do you mean when you say "3rd space G". I'm assuming you mean 4th space G in the bass clef...? I'm surprised you can play THAT low, and I must admit I've never even TRIED to play that mute in the range below 3rd line D. Yes, I meant 4th space G. It is a little wobbly by that point, but definitely playable without too much of an adjustment. The F is difficult. If you buzz the F in a determined way, it comes out well enough to be used as a passing tone or ghost note, but I wouldn't want to linger on that pitch. This Crown mute seems to work great in the "Tricky Sam" range you mentioned above, although it starts to lose its brilliant edge from an octave above middle C on up. You have to attack those notes pretty hard to bring out the edgy mute sound. I've never played a real nonpareil, but from the sounds of it, this Tom Crown mute is a good substitute. Just make sure to select the "soft orchestra" mute, not the regular Crown straight mute. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:21:12 -0500 From: Michael Shoshani To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Nonpareil mute Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 13 May 2001 09:51:52 -0500, we secretly replaced Craig Parmerlee 's message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices: >At 10:28 AM 5/13/2001 -0400, sabutin wrote: >> The Pixie mute from H+B (That's PIXIE, not DIXIE...) is much more in >> tune and is able to be played through the whole horn...it just doesn't >> have that intensity. A whole 'nother style... > >Mine says "New Stone Lined Dixie Straight Mute ' For Plunger Work'" It >doesn't say "Pixie" anywhere. I can't remember when I bought it -- >probably 15 years ago. Something may have gotten messed up with the label, then. H&B. so far as I know, have always called it a "Pixie"; their companion rubber plunger-style mute is a "Trixie". That being said, Brook Mays Music sells an H&B trombone mute which they indeed list as "Dixie"--but they haven't a picture available. H&B's website (www.humes-berg.com) lists a Pixie straight mute for trumpet and for trombone, but no Dixies. Maybe they had a Pixie and Dixie but got in trouble with Hanna-Barbera :) (Actually, maybe that's not farfetched: the mute that Brooks Mays is selling as "Dixie" is product number 164--which is H&B's rubber Trixie plunger. Hm.) H&B does make a straight mute for trombone that is about the same size and shape as a trumpet straight mute, but a little fatter and with bigger corks. This is labeled "New Stone Lined Straight Mute", with a smaller label below that says "For Plunger Work". But they don't call this anything special, just "short plunger straight mute". Their item number for it is 156. > >> Speaking of "in tune"...REALLY great Non Pareil players don't retune >> their horns when they use the mute; they just learn a whole new set of >> positions. The rest of us (myself included) have to pull the tuning slide >> out a LOOOONG way to get the horn in pitch. > >With this Tom Crown nonpareil copy, the adjustment isn't that much. I >guess I have to play the slide out 3/4". Art Baron has an article on plugers in the OTJ, and he mentions that Quentin Jackson once noticed him pulling his tuning slide out for his plunger solo. Butter advised him not to do that; told him to leave the tuning slide where it was and play the handslide positions a little flat. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL "Life is an art, not a science; You make it up as you go along." -Al Hirschfeld ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:27:26 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: C-Tenor Message-ID: <002201c0dbc1$4de99a60$fb7b68d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Craig Parmerlee" > At 08:24 AM 5/13/2001 +0100, Adrian Drover wrote: > > >Is there any particular reason why most present day brass instruments, saxes > >and clarinets are built in Bb and Eb, rather than C and F? > > I'd say it is all about inertia, not sound. They have always been made > that way, so the music is written that way. If somebody would like to > rewrite all that Eb and Bb sax music, then maybe a different pitch would > take over. But, to the best of my knowledge, saxes have been made in 14 different pitches. All of the ones in C and F have become extinct. Is there any reason why only 2 in Bb and 2 in Eb have survived in regular use? Also brass and clarinets have been made in C and F, but apart from french horns and tubas, only Bb and Eb instruments have survived the march of time. There must be a reason for that. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:12:35 -0500 From: "Bill Dinwiddie" To: "Trombone List" Subject: To Our Mothers Message-ID: <000701c0dbc7$8653fd40$5acdb518@rmdws1.il.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A very Happy Mother's Day to all you Mothers out there. You know who you are! Best Wishes, Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@home.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:46:37 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: FS: Collectible H&B Dixie mute. One of a kind Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010513123220.01f4e018@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It is not a trixie or pixie. It is a true Dixie and I am offering it to the first person who bids $20,000 for this rare gem, played in the same city where JJ Johnson and Slide Hampton grew up. It has been stored on a shelf next to CDs by some of the world's best trombonists, so you know it is a quality item. But seriously, this definitely says 'Dixie Straight Mute for plunger work" on the label. It is an all metal mute. It is 12 inches long and much thinner than a normal straight mute so that it can go almost entirely inside the bell. The diameter is about 2.5" at the widest point -- the bulb that protrudes from the bell a little. It mainly just makes the sound quieter with a LOT more back pressure. It doesn't give much of a straight mute edge unless you really attack notes hard. In comparison the Tom Crown mute, when used in the octave going up from middle C doesn't add too much back pressure and provides a nice sharp edge to the tone without having to do anything out of the ordinary. Later, Craig At 10:21 AM 5/13/2001 -0500, Michael Shoshani wrote: On Sun, 13 May 2001 09:51:52 -0500, we secretly replaced Craig Parmerlee 's message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices: >At 10:28 AM 5/13/2001 -0400, sabutin wrote: >> The Pixie mute from H+B (That's PIXIE, not DIXIE...) is much more in >> tune and is able to be played through the whole horn...it just doesn't >> have that intensity. A whole 'nother style... > >Mine says "New Stone Lined Dixie Straight Mute ' For Plunger Work'" It >doesn't say "Pixie" anywhere. I can't remember when I bought it -- >probably 15 years ago. Something may have gotten messed up with the label, then. H&B. so far as I know, have always called it a "Pixie"; their companion rubber plunger-style mute is a "Trixie". ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:18:04 -0500 From: Michael Shoshani To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: FS: Collectible H&B Dixie mute. One of a kind Message-ID: <8kitftor36f1ljj5gpfo1bp422tjlrvq4t@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 13 May 2001 12:46:37 -0500, we secretly replaced Craig Parmerlee 's message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices: >It is not a trixie or pixie. It is a true Dixie and I am offering it to >the first person who bids $20,000 for this rare gem, played in the same >city where JJ Johnson and Slide Hampton grew up. It has been stored on a >shelf next to CDs by some of the world's best trombonists, so you know it >is a quality item. Oh, man. My eBay trigger finger is itching! Does Griz know about this? :-) >But seriously, this definitely says 'Dixie Straight Mute for plunger work" >on the label. It is an all metal mute. It is 12 inches long and much >thinner than a normal straight mute so that it can go almost entirely >inside the bell. The diameter is about 2.5" at the widest point -- the >bulb that protrudes from the bell a little. They may have changed the name at one time, because what you're describing sounds like the modern Pixie. Long, narrow, meant to go most of the way down the bell, and looking a little...well, phallic. The little two-color H&B brochure that, judging from Bill Watrous' hair, hasn't changed since the 1970s, describes the Pix as an all metal plunger straight mute. The regular "mini" straight plunger mute that I use is 7 3/4 long, is just under 2 3/4 wide at the large end, and is the standard stone-lined composition (ie not metal) mute. The old brochure states that it was "designed to be used with the Glenn Miller Tuxedo Plunger", a large solid cup with a front handle. I have no idea how it compares to a nonpareil so far as back pressure, intonation, etc, having never played a nonpareil. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL "Life is an art, not a science; You make it up as you go along." -Al Hirschfeld ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 14:57:56 -0400 From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: C-Tenor Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Craig shouted out his window: Anyway, that critical mass of written music will also probably prevent the adoption of other trombone models as well. It is probably the main reason for the disappearance of F and G bass trombones. If there is a fine difference in timbre between the C and Bb trombones, that is surely a third order infinitesimal, observable only by the most finely tuned ear. I doubt that I could correctly identify C vs. Bb trumpet most of the time. Later, CP The one advantage of bass clef instruments is that once you learn your notes on your instrument of whatever key, you can play ANY bass clef music that lies within your range (excepting low horn and French-style? bass clarinet notation). A C trombonist can play Bb trombone parts more easily than can a C trumpeter play Bb trumpet parts if one really knows the notes on C trombone. As for Bb/Eb instruments reigning despotically over F# and D instruments, it probably has to do with the masses of military band music written in keys like Eb, Ab, and Db. Some of that music was written while C and F instruments were still alive and kicking. Why were so many marches put in Ab? Did that actually gear the instruments involved towards flatter keys? Curiously, Aaron R. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 14:30:53 -0500 From: Weston Sprott To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Eric Swanson: others please delete Message-ID: <200105131930.OAA05519@indiana.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Eric, I need to get in contact with you. If you could please give me your phone number or email address I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks. Weston Sprott Indiana University 972-668-1898 wsprott@indiana.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:15:37 -0400 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: re: Nonpareil mute Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 10:28 AM 5/13/2001 -0400, sabutin wrote: It's a "just live w/it" thing. I generally stay between Bb on top of the bass clef up to D a major tenth higher...Tricky Sam Nanton concentrated 95% of HIS playing between say Eb above the bass clef and Db a minor 7th above. (But what he could do w/ a minor 7th of range was PHENOMENAL !!!) That is good to know. Thanks. The Pixie mute from H+B (That's PIXIE, not DIXIE...) is much more in tune and is able to be played through the whole horn...it just doesn't have that intensity. A whole 'nother style... Mine says "New Stone Lined Dixie Straight Mute ' For Plunger Work'" It doesn't say "Pixie" anywhere. I can't remember when I bought it -- probably 15 years ago. ================= Hmmmm...never looked, to tell you the truth. Everybody always called them Pixie Mutes. Looking at mine...at least 20 years old...sure enough it says "Pixie Straight Mute For Plunger Work" on it. ============================== Speaking of "in tune"...REALLY great Non Pareil players don't retune their horns when they use the mute; they just learn a whole new set of positions. The rest of us (myself included) have to pull the tuning slide out a LOOOONG way to get the horn in pitch. With this Tom Crown nonpareil copy, the adjustment isn't that much. I guess I have to play the slide out 3/4". P.S. What note do you mean when you say "3rd space G". I'm assuming you mean 4th space G in the bass clef...? I'm surprised you can play THAT low, and I must admit I've never even TRIED to play that mute in the range below 3rd line D. Yes, I meant 4th space G. It is a little wobbly by that point, but definitely playable without too much of an adjustment. The F is difficult. If you buzz the F in a determined way, it comes out well enough to be used as a passing tone or ghost note, but I wouldn't want to linger on that pitch. This Crown mute seems to work great in the "Tricky Sam" range you mentioned above, although it starts to lose its brilliant edge from an octave above middle C on up. You have to attack those notes pretty hard to bring out the edgy mute sound. ============ Yup. Same w/ a Non Pareil. =================== I've never played a real nonpareil, but from the sounds of it, this Tom Crown mute is a good substitute. Just make sure to select the "soft orchestra" mute, not the regular Crown straight mute. ============= It IS a good substitute...just not quite as powerful. S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:28:51 -0400 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Nonpareil mute Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1222329559==_ma============" ---snip--- > >> Speaking of "in tune"...REALLY great Non Pareil players don't retune >> their horns when they use the mute; they just learn a whole new set of >> positions. The rest of us (myself included) have to pull the tuning slide >> out a LOOOONG way to get the horn in pitch. > >With this Tom Crown nonpareil copy, the adjustment isn't that much. I >guess I have to play the slide out 3/4". Art Baron has an article on plugers in the OTJ, and he mentions that Quentin Jackson once noticed him pulling his tuning slide out for his plunger solo. Butter advised him not to do that; told him to leave the tuning slide where it was and play the handslide positions a little flat. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ====================== This is a better choice in terms of logistics (pulling the tuning slide every time you use the mute is time consuming, and sometimes there just isn't time enough to do so or to retune after playing it) AND probably in terms of the way the horn plays as well...it's just something that you have to learn how to do. I have never had a chance to play Tricky Sam solos over and over again for a period of weeks, so I've never felt as if I would get a chance to be comfortable enough playing flat positions. Never felt free to practice using the Non Pareil at home much either, because it's always seemed as if playing plunger trombone (w/or w/out a mute) has been rather destructive to the finer areas of my embouchure balance. Y'gotta be careful w/all this plunger work...it requires you to use an undue amount of pressure because you are not holding the trombone anymore, you're pressing it into your face w/the wrist of your left hand cocked on the bell, and w/the Non Pareil mute particularly, you have to REALLY BLOW HARD...FFF style...to be effective. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done...it's a very important part of the jazz trombone repertory...just be careful w/it. Later... S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:47:06 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Cc: big-band@listserver.com, sdg@sinfonia.org, jjlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: Perry Como Message-ID: <4.2.2.20010513174502.00a83d50@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This may have already been announced on the lists -- my ISP is not currently receiving email, and hasn't since Friday night -- but I've just discovered that Perry Como has passed away. CNN is carrying the story at http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/Music/05/12/como.obit/index.html . Earl ********************************************************* Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:needhame@yucca.net (or mailto:kd5xb@amsat.org which is really mailto:kd5xb@[128.54.16.15] ) Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446m W103d 12.700m (or so) NEW Pet peeve: People who get themselves on a mailing list and then can't figure out how to get OFF the list. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:26:27 -0400 From: Douglas Yeo To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Bass sackbut mouthpiece? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'm looking for a suitable bass sackbut mouthpiece for my Finke bass sackbut in F. Any ideas on dealers/manufacturers who might carry such in the USA, have specs available, etc? I'm aware of several people who can make custom sackbut mouthpieces, but I'm interested to see what's available in "stock" models. Thanks for any help. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:32:54 -0400 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur To: yeo@yeodoug.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass sackbut mouthpiece? Message-ID: <3AFF27B6.32693B3D@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Doug and list, I play a fair bit of bass sackbut using a Giardinelli bass in F. I was dissatisfied with the stock mouthpiece that came with it (may be able to negotiate a sale) and ended up designing my own and having a maker nearby tool it for me. I know this is not what you are going to want to hear but the best ones that I have tried are from Geert Jan van der Heide in Amsterdam. I am sure if you told him what you are playing he would be able to make something up for you. The same goes for Doug Elliott although both of these makers would amount to custom jobs and would charge accordingly. In addition, I don't think that DE would make a "real" sackbut mouthpiece for you in terms of what will give you a decent sackbut sound and be historically close to what would have been played. I have my own strong opinions on the historically correct when it comes to mouthpieces but I do feel that what van der Heide is making sounds very good and contains certain elements that are necessary for that "sackbut" sound. If you are interested in what I have done for myself or wish to discuss the Giardinelli mouthpiece that I have, feel free to contact me off list and I can tell you more. Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra Douglas Yeo wrote: > > I'm looking for a suitable bass sackbut mouthpiece for my Finke bass > sackbut in F. Any ideas on dealers/manufacturers who might carry > such in the USA, have specs available, etc? I'm aware of several > people who can make custom sackbut mouthpieces, but I'm interested to > see what's available in "stock" models. > > Thanks for any help. > > -Doug Yeo > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:46:14 -0400 From: "Andrew Elms" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: C-Tenor Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well... my marketing professors would describe this a simple case of dominant design and network externalities. For those of you unfamiliar, network externalities are things that add to the value of your product/service if other people also buy the same product. For example, one person with a modem is useless. Somebody else has to buy a modem for it to be worth anything. Likewise, if you have a sax in Eb, when other people have saxes in Eb, more music is written for sax in Eb, more music is written that sounds in better keys for these flat instruments, etc., etc... This leads to the majority of people settling on a 'dominant design.' (Geoffrey Moore's 'pragmatists') So are Bb and Eb instruments better? Not necessarily. Marketing doesn't seem to follow the Darwinian survival of the fittest. There are many examples, particularly if some technology is involved where the best design didn't win and was left behind as an inferior design was selected by the masses for whatever reason. Anyway... Sorry, just had to use something from my master's in business sometime. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Aaron Roth Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 2:58 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: C-Tenor Craig shouted out his window: >Anyway, that critical mass of written music will also probably prevent the >adoption of other trombone models as well. It is probably the main reason >for the disappearance of F and G bass trombones. If there is a fine >difference in timbre between the C and Bb trombones, that is surely a third >order infinitesimal, observable only by the most finely tuned ear. I doubt >that I could correctly identify C vs. Bb trumpet most of the time. > >Later, >CP The one advantage of bass clef instruments is that once you learn your notes on your instrument of whatever key, you can play ANY bass clef music that lies within your range (excepting low horn and French-style? bass clarinet notation). A C trombonist can play Bb trombone parts more easily than can a C trumpeter play Bb trumpet parts if one really knows the notes on C trombone. As for Bb/Eb instruments reigning despotically over F# and D instruments, it probably has to do with the masses of military band music written in keys like Eb, Ab, and Db. Some of that music was written while C and F instruments were still alive and kicking. Why were so many marches put in Ab? Did that actually gear the instruments involved towards flatter keys? Curiously, Aaron R. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:08:41 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Nonpareil mute Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010513210015.01f2e938@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:28 PM 5/13/2001 -0400, sabutin wrote: Y'gotta be careful w/all this plunger work...it requires you to use an undue amount of pressure because you are not holding the trombone anymore, you're pressing it into your face w/the wrist of your left hand cocked on the bell, and w/the Non Pareil mute particularly, you have to REALLY BLOW HARD...FFF style...to be effective. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done...it's a very important part of the jazz trombone repertory...just be careful w/it. Plunger is required from time to time on regular old slide trombone. It is a necessary evil. But the horn I really enjoy using the plunger with is an F.E. Olds marching trombone. The bell is closer so the left hand can move more naturally. And you can hold the horn with your right hand, so you can use your regular embouchure without increasing pressure. That combination isn't very loud though, so a mic is mandatory. I imagine doing plunger on a marching trombone is sacrilege among proper trombonists, but I like it. Later, CP ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:27:08 -0500 From: Candice & Eric Swanson Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bach Slide Message-ID: <3AFF508C.FCF87BB5@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Ryon wrote: > I would like to purchase a new Bach 42 slide. Can anyone direct me to > a source? > http://www.woodwindbrasswind.com/home.jsp ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 00:52:17 -0400 From: Joshua Sticklorlipson To: elmsandr@msu.edu Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: C-Tenor Message-ID: <3747440.3198790337@ip247-155.resnet.pc.jmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, you also have to consider a little history. If I recall correctly (and I'm sure some list member will correct me if I am wrong), originally there were two families of saxophones. The first was for use in military bands and was pitched in Bb and Eb. The second was for orchestral use and was pitched in C and F (possibly G rather than F, I cannot remember). The instrument never quite caught on in orchestral music (at the time), and so the C/F family died out. You can still find the occasional C melody sax around. While this may also have had something to do with tone quality, the Bb/Eb family survived and is still around today. Similar things have happened to other instruments for various reasons. The Bb clarinet has a more pleasing tone so the C clarinet went the way of the dodo. When was the last time you saw a trumpet in A? As for trombone, I'm sure gradually the Bb simply became more popular, and people stopped producing and learning the C instrument, if such a beast ever had much popularity. After all, with no demand there is no reason to supply. Just a few ideas, -Joshua --On Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:46 PM -0400 Andrew Elms flung forth into the abyss: Well... my marketing professors would describe this a simple case of dominant design and network externalities. For those of you unfamiliar, network externalities are things that add to the value of your product/service if other people also buy the same product. For example, one person with a modem is useless. Somebody else has to buy a modem for it to be worth anything. Likewise, if you have a sax in Eb, when other people have saxes in Eb, more music is written for sax in Eb, more music is written that sounds in better keys for these flat instruments, etc., etc... This leads to the majority of people settling on a 'dominant design.' (Geoffrey Moore's 'pragmatists') So are Bb and Eb instruments better? Not necessarily. Marketing doesn't seem to follow the Darwinian survival of the fittest. There are many examples, particularly if some technology is involved where the best design didn't win and was left behind as an inferior design was selected by the masses for whatever reason. Anyway... Sorry, just had to use something from my master's in business sometime. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Aaron Roth Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 2:58 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: C-Tenor Craig shouted out his window: Anyway, that critical mass of written music will also probably prevent the adoption of other trombone models as well. It is probably the main reason for the disappearance of F and G bass trombones. If there is a fine difference in timbre between the C and Bb trombones, that is surely a third order infinitesimal, observable only by the most finely tuned ear. I doubt that I could correctly identify C vs. Bb trumpet most of the time. Later, CP The one advantage of bass clef instruments is that once you learn your notes on your instrument of whatever key, you can play ANY bass clef music that lies within your range (excepting low horn and French-style? bass clarinet notation). A C trombonist can play Bb trombone parts more easily than can a C trumpeter play Bb trumpet parts if one really knows the notes on C trombone. As for Bb/Eb instruments reigning despotically over F# and D instruments, it probably has to do with the masses of military band music written in keys like Eb, Ab, and Db. Some of that music was written while C and F instruments were still alive and kicking. Why were so many marches put in Ab? Did that actually gear the instruments involved towards flatter keys? Curiously, Aaron R. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Joshua A. Sticklor-Lipson Bass trombone, James Madison University Bass trombone, Marching Royal Dukes ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 00:02:43 -0700 From: "Matthew Stoecker" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: C-Tenor Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0000_01C0DC09.3314EE40" Well, the F saxophone was intended for orchestral use, but went over so poorly that the Conn company, which had produced thousands of them in anticipation of sales, resorted to putting dents in them to train their repairmen with. To bad, as they're worth thousands of dollars today. The C tenor sax is quite another matter. This was primarily produced for home use. During the prohibition years, there wasn't anything to do, so people resorted to singing around the piano. The c melody sax was fairly easy to play, and one could play along with the melody. Since most people can't sing anyway, no one noticed how wildly out of tune most c melody saxes are. The C trombone, at least from the 1920s, is another inovation in a similar vein. The idea was that people who learned to play trombone in the salvation army would have learned to read Bb transposing treble. Well, give them a C trombone and they can read right along with the soprano line in church. Hence the name "preacher's trombone". I doubt these were ever intended for orchestral use. A trumpets? See them all the time. For a significant period of time the Conn trumpets were shipped with a tuning slide that included a switch key that would put the horn into A. These are also seen on York cornets, and a few other brands I can't recall. I don't think the Bb trombones necessarily gained popularity over their C counterparts, as Bb trombones existed long before the preacher's trombone did. Rather, I think that a niche existed for the C for a brief period of time. The real evolution was that of the trombone from A to Bb. An A trombone would be much better suited to orchestral playing than a Bb, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the tenor standard, at least way way way back then (1700s or so) was a tenor in A. But gradually Bb won out, for reasons that my scholarship is insufficient to explain. Since there was no longer a niche for the A, it. But what is best is not always what survives. Ok, I just realized I'm rambling. Late night. Good night all! Matt Stoecker ----- Original Message ----- From:ÊJoshua Sticklorlipson Sent:ÊSunday, May 13, 2001 9:49 PM To:ÊTrombones and related issues forum. Subject:ÊRE: C-Tenor Well, you also have to consider a little history. If I recall correctly (and I'm sure some list member will correct me if I am wrong), originally there were two families of saxophones. The first was for use in military bands and was pitched in Bb and Eb. The second was for orchestral use and was pitched in C and F (possibly G rather than F, I cannot remember). The instrument never quite caught on in orchestral music (at the time), and so the C/F family died out. You can still find the occasional C melody sax around. While this may also have had something to do with tone quality, the Bb/Eb family survived and is still around today. Similar things have happened to other instruments for various reasons. The Bb clarinet has a more pleasing tone so the C clarinet went the way of the dodo. When was the last time you saw a trumpet in A? As for trombone, I'm sure gradually the Bb simply became more popular, and people stopped producing and learning the C instrument, if such a beast ever had much popularity. After all, with no demand there is no reason to supply. Just a few ideas, -Joshua --On Sunday, May 13, 2001 9:46 PM -0400 Andrew Elms flung forth into the abyss: > Well... my marketing professors would describe this a simple case of > dominant design and network externalities. For those of you unfamiliar, > network externalities are things that add to the value of your > product/service if other people also buy the same product. For example, > one person with a modem is useless. Somebody else has to buy a modem for > it to be worth anything. Likewise, if you have a sax in Eb, when other > people have saxes in Eb, more music is written for sax in Eb, more music > is written that sounds in better keys for these flat instruments, etc., > etc... This leads to the majority of people settling on a 'dominant > design.' (Geoffrey Moore's 'pragmatists') > > So are Bb and Eb instruments better? Not necessarily. Marketing doesn't > seem to follow the Darwinian survival of the fittest. There are many > examples, particularly if some technology is involved where the best > design didn't win and was left behind as an inferior design was selected > by the masses for whatever reason. Anyway... > > Sorry, just had to use something from my master's in business sometime. > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Aaron Roth > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 2:58 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: C-Tenor > > > Craig shouted out his window: >> Anyway, that critical mass of written music will also probably prevent >> the adoption of other trombone models as well. It is probably the main >> reason for the disappearance of F and G bass trombones. If there is a >> fine difference in timbre between the C and Bb trombones, that is surely >> a third order infinitesimal, observable only by the most finely tuned >> ear. I doubt that I could correctly identify C vs. Bb trumpet most of >> the time. >> >> Later, >> CP > > > The one advantage of bass clef instruments is that once you learn your > notes on your instrument of whatever key, you can play ANY bass clef > music that lies within your range (excepting low horn and French-style? > bass clarinet notation). A C trombonist can play Bb trombone parts more > easily than can a C trumpeter play Bb trumpet parts if one really knows > the notes on C trombone. > > As for Bb/Eb instruments reigning despotically over F# and D instruments, > it probably has to do with the masses of military band music written in > keys like Eb, Ab, and Db. Some of that music was written while C and F > instruments were still alive and kicking. Why were so many marches put in > Ab? Did that actually gear the instruments involved towards flatter keys? > Curiously, > Aaron R. > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > Joshua A. Sticklor-Lipson Bass trombone, James Madison University Bass trombone, Marching Royal Dukes Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Mon, 14 May 01 08:32:04 BST From: andyk@solid-state-logic.com (Andy Kinch) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Repairs Message-ID: <10105140732.AA01720@bugs.solid-state-logic.com> Hi all, Does anyone know of any newsgroups or mailing lists (like this one) that are devoted to Musical Instrument Repairs? Regards Andy ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:03:28 +0200 (MEST) From: mploumen@dolfijn.nl (mathijs ploumen) To: Cc: Subject: Red spots on thick part of inner-slide Message-ID: <200105140903.LAA67143@hardcore.l3.ilse.nl> Content-Description: Mail sent by: mathijs ploumen (mploumen@dolfijn.nl) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I got a nice King 5B Silveronic (1965), but unfortunatly the thick part of te innerslide has got a number of red spots. Although the slide performance is acceptable, 7th position is not really an option anymore in somewhat faster movements. Is it posibble to fix the innerslide when the red spots are on, or is it a lost case ? If it is possible, does anybody then know what the costs may be ? Kind regards, Mathijs Ploumen The Netherlands ______________________________________________________________ Gratis e-mail en meer: http://www.dolfijn.nl/ ilse weet nu ook alles van muziek! http://ilsemusic.ilse.nl/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:38:37 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: C-Tenor Message-ID: <007201c0dc55$8fc42060$f18368d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Joshua Sticklorlipson" > Well, you also have to consider a little history. If I recall correctly > (and I'm sure some list member will correct me if I am wrong), > originally there were two families of saxophones. That is correct, there were 7 sizes in each family (14 in all) ranging from sopranino in F to contrabass in Eb. > The first was for use in military > bands and was pitched in Bb and Eb. Ah yes, the military band connection. I never thought of that. Bb and Eb instruments would be much more suitable for the flat keys early military music was written in. That would explain why early jazz band music used these same keys ("Five Flat Flurry" etc.). The jazz band evolved from the military band. The instrumentation is much the same, cornets (now trumpets), trombones, clarinets and saxes. This is probably one of the reasons why the tenor and bass instruments have transposed parts in the British brass band too. They would be easier to read in flat keys. So why was military band music written in so many flats? I seem to remember having seen parts for Db flutes and piccolos in old scores and I think my school band actually used these instruments. Is this the connection? Were the earliest military bands born from sharp flutes and drums? A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:42:54 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: C-Tenor Message-ID: <007301c0dc55$93348f00$f18368d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Andrew Elms" > So are Bb and Eb instruments better? Not necessarily. Marketing doesn't > seem to follow the Darwinian survival of the fittest. There are many > examples, particularly if some technology is involved where the best design > didn't win and was left behind as an inferior design was selected by the > masses for whatever reason. Anyway... Ah, now you're talking about the Betamax video recorder and the Acorn computer. I bought both, because after investigation, I learned that they were the best product available. Alas, they are both now collecting dust in the closet and I'm having to use this goddam awful piece of shit they call a PC, just because through clever merchandising, the masses were persuaded to buy them and the programmers were forced to write the software for them and nothing else. Thank God, I still have a choice when it comes to buying a trombone. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2037--