TROMBONE-L Digest 1942 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Miraphone Bass Trumpet by "Dean McCarty" 2) Dual bore bass slides by Dave Molter 3) A mute point ... by Dave Molter 4) New Mute by Jeff Caldwell 5) RE: A mute point ... by Steve Gamble 6) Re: Miraphone Bass Trumpet by Douglas Yeo 7) RE: Cryogenics by "Gary Greenhoe" 8) No Jazz or people's bells freezing off by JennWhaa@aol.com 9) Re: Dual bore bass slides by sabutin@mindspring.com 10) Re: A mute point ... by sabutin@mindspring.com 11) Re: Dual bore bass slides by Craig Parmerlee 12) Washington, DC by craig findley 13) Tom Crown Mutes by "H du Plooy" 14) The Voice of God? by "Turner, Scott" 15) RE: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off by Earl Needham 16) Trombone Stress relief (was Re: Freezing bells for stress relief) by "Jac Grimes" 17) Re: Dual bore bass slides by Gabriel Langfur 18) Re: A mute point ... by Walter Barrett 19) RE: Freezing bells for stress relief by Gabriel Langfur 20) list archive by "Daniel E. Beckley" 21) : Re: Dual bore bass slides by "Thomas Smee" 22) Re: Dual bore bass slides by "Edward Solomon" 23) Re: Cryogenics by Walter Barrett 24) Re: The Voice of God? by Michael & Dava Millar 25) New email address by "Thomas Smee" 26) Re: Dual bore bass slides by Gabriel Langfur 27) Re: Mahler books by "Thomas Smee" 28) Re: Dual bore bass slides by mpurdy@jwpepper.com 29) Re: Dual bore bass slides by "Daniel Pliskin" 30) Re: The Voice of God? by "Daniel Pliskin" 31) Re: No Jazz or people's bells freezing off by Tim Dowling 32) Osmun Cryogenic by DenBlose@aol.com 33) RE: Dual bore bass slides by Peter_Eiden@prenhall.com 34) Re: Dual bore bass slides by "Edward Solomon" 35) Re: Dual bore bass slides by Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur 36) Books on Mahler by Douglas Yeo 37) cryogenics? by "tbarhaug" 38) Re: Miraphone Bass Trumpet by "modelerd" 39) Article - Burns' `Jazz' Gives Music a Boost by "Brandon C. Moodie" 40) Re: The Voice of God? by Chris Lee 41) RE: : Re: Dual bore bass slides by "Gary Greenhoe" 42) Looking for Arrangments from the Great Kai and JJ Album by "Bart Roberts" 43) re:dual bore bass slides by "tbarhaug" 44) Double Bore? by "Dave Wank" 45) Recording on Mini Disc HELP! by "Bart Roberts" 46) Fw: Recording on Mini Disc HELP! by "Joseph Sellmansberger" 47) Mini Disc by "Bart Roberts" 48) Monaco Sonatas by "Bart Roberts" 49) American dual bores by sabutin@mindspring.com 50) Re: A mute point ... by "Adrian Drover" 51) Re: No Jazz or people's bells freezing off by "Adrian Drover" 52) Re: Trombone Stress relief (was Re: Freezing bells for stress relief) by "Adrian Drover" 53) Re: Mini Disc by Jeff Caldwell ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:11:51 -0600 From: "Dean McCarty" To: "Trombones and related issues forum" Subject: Miraphone Bass Trumpet Message-ID: <006901c08d19$b5ff9a60$220960cc@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0066_01C08CE7.6A1EA0A0" What can anyone tell me about the Miraphone Bass Trumpet (please no jokes...) how does it play compared to a Getzen? I would think that the rotary valves may warm the sound a bit, but maybe not. Anyone with any experience with it? Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:16:43 -0500 From: Dave Molter To: trombone-L Subject: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <3A7AB33C.39FEB2F4@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers: Ever one to provoke controversy, I offer the following: I looked over the Trombone-L archives last night and discovered much discussion of dual bore slides. However, I the one that intrigued me most was a post by Sabutin saying that he had a Conn 70H with dual bore slide -- but .547/.562 rather than .562/.578 as is offered by some manufacturers now. Just wondering what today's players think of this option? Obviously, I think it the smaller top tube would allow easier high notes, and I'm sure that many players use this option on a large bore tenor to free up the midrange and low end. But I'm also wondering if using a smaller top tube on bass might make pedals easier as well. I say this only because when I use my stone lined practice mute, the pedals pop right out, even on a small bore tenor. I'm thinking this is because it offers more resistance? Am I screwy? Remember -- I passed 10th grade physics only because I recopied my exam and got 5 extra points for neatness. I should also say that I'm not one of those bass players who thinks bigger is necessarily better, so I'm not committed to s .562/.578 arrangement. Dave Molter ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:22:27 -0500 From: Dave Molter To: trombone-L Subject: A mute point ... Message-ID: <3A7AB494.707C57F9@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers: Please forgive my asking a cornet question, but it applies as well to trombones, I think. One of my brass band colleagues asked if there is any "correct" distance that a mute should fit into the bell of a horn. I offered that all I had seen was a general comment that the rim of a cup mute should sit about 1/4" from the bell rim. It seems to me, though, that the mute should be adjusted so it produces the sound you like and matches that of the rest of the section? Are we nitpicking? Dave Molter ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:36:29 +0000 From: Jeff Caldwell To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: New Mute Message-ID: <3A7AC5ED.7778330A@home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit During a break last night I discovered that a trumpet stand makes an interesting trombone mute, a combination of plunger and Silent Brass. The stand legs sticking out of the trombone bell made a nice visual accompaniment and acted as antennae to provide FM reception of PBS's broadcast of Bartok to the filling in my molar. I soon was horrified, however, when I saw the stand-deprived trumpeter lift his horn to his lips. I quickly avoided the unpleasant aural experience by returning the stand to its normal use. Jeff Caldwell ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:31:14 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'dmolter@earthlink.net'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: A mute point ... Message-ID: <01C08CEA.205D5F80.orchpers@azstarnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Yes there is a correct distance, but it changes from horn to horn and player to player and mute to mute. If you want your mutes to play really well and in tune in all registers, the right mix of cork height and mute length is essential. A few months ago I posted a little procedure for finding the right length for your mute in response to some mute topic. (It must have been a little incoherent or something or maybe everyone already knows this trick, because no one responded to it). The cork height mostly affects the pitch. If the corks are too low the mute goes in too far and sharpness usually results. So, adjust the cork height according to some compromise between good pitch and the mute tone you want. Once you're happy with that, the length of the mute usually needs to be adjusted in order to give you the best response over the greatest range. Steve Gamble -----Original Message----- From: Dave Molter [SMTP:kingbone@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:22 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: A mute point ... Listers: Please forgive my asking a cornet question, but it applies as well to trombones, I think. One of my brass band colleagues asked if there is any "correct" distance that a mute should fit into the bell of a horn. I offered that all I had seen was a general comment that the rim of a cup mute should sit about 1/4" from the bell rim. It seems to me, though, that the mute should be adjusted so it produces the sound you like and matches that of the rest of the section? Are we nitpicking? Dave Molter ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:35:13 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Miraphone Bass Trumpet Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:11 AM -0600 2/2/2001, Dean McCarty wrote: > What can anyone tell me about the Miraphone Bass Trumpet (please no >>jokes...) how does it play compared to a Getzen? I would think that the >>rotary valves may warm the sound a bit, but maybe not. Anyone with any >>experience with it? I tried a Miraphone rotary valve bass trumpet in B flat many years ago (1987?) when I first started playing bass trumpet, if found it to have a rather large sound, very warm, but not what I was looking for. If you're going to play bass trumpet in a serious way, you probably need two instruments - a 3 valve piston instrument in B flat for the "band" pieces such as the Janacek "Sinfonietta" and Stravinsky "Rite of Spring" and a 4 valve rotary instrument in C for Wagner. The C trumpet is the right quality of sound, and the rotary valves blend well with the trombones and Wagner tuben. I use a Bach piston in B flat (NY Bach) and a Yamaha prototype C rotary in C (not a production model, but a magnificent instrument). I prefer the bass trumpet to sound like a large trumpet rather than a small trombone, hence my preference for the Yamaha (or an Alexander) when it comes to the C trumpet. Rayburn Music in Boston just got in 2 Meinel C 4 falve rotary bass trumpets, one of which they plan to rent out, the other is for sale. I tried them and liked them, nice sound, good quality, about $3000 or so to buy, if I remember correctly (+-). -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:38:21 -0600 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , "Richardson, Tim" Subject: RE: Cryogenics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim and list, I do intend to have some brass analyzed as soon as I can arrange it as this subject has been on the back burner (pun intended) in my mind for 20 years or so, as my father was chief metallurgist at Buick. He was involved in many experiments at the time with cryogenics. I learned much from him regarding annealing and stress relief, but this was a relatively new technology that GM was studying. I want to assure you Tim, that I don't take these observations lightly and my sole purpose with trying this is to rekindle my interest with research in this area. It's been a process I have followed for a long time and have been very skeptical of claims others have made too. I appreciate the discussion of this topic and welcome any serious thought/comment from listers. I certainly will follow up with further observations or scientific findings as time permits! Warm Regards, Gary -----Original Message----- From: Richardson, Tim [mailto:richardt@lee.army.mil] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 7:31 AM To: 'Gary Greenhoe'; Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Cryogenics Gary is entitled to his opinion even if it differs from mine! I don't usually use a smiley, that's redundant, but this is a special case as his credentials are "slightly" higher than mine and he might be expected to detect differences I would miss. I do not claim there can't be anything going on, I just say the evidence for it is somewhat scant and the theory clearly wrong. [Richardson, Tim] Gary says: didn't find much change. Of course we were stress relieving bells there in > an oven and theoretically that accomplishes similar results. > [Richardson, Tim] No. Ovens clearly relieve stress, there's not a > metallurgist or engineer in the world who would disagree with you, and the > mechanisms are well understood and demonstrated under the microscope. > Cryogenics may do SOMETHING but it doesn't relieve stress. You need the > molecules to move, and for that you need heat. > > I DO know that this treatment relieves stress from the manufacturing > process > and sure beats the alternative of baking your horn...watching the solder > ooze out of all of your solder joints. > > For those of you looking for scientific results, just cut up several > pieces > of brass...heat them, beat them, and then analyze them through a > microscope....then take some samples and and temper them in an oven..below > the re-crystallization point at a specific time/temperature...then do the > same with cryogenics....I think there your questions will be answered. > [Richardson, Tim] Yes. Exactly. All it would take is one microphotograph to convince me, and every other engineer out there. That would cost you about $50.00 US to have done. (probably get it done free in any engineering school, we had to do stuff like that in lab) And no cryogenics proponent has ever done that. I wonder why? However their failure, or even their inability to do so, doesn't prove it doesn't have an effect; it does show the effect is not what they claim it to be (stress relief). As far as a scientific test, I would be satisfied with the standard way you develop the impedance chart for any horn: you put the mouthpiece on, seal the end, insert the capillary probe microphone, insert the white sound source, measure the response at all frequencies. That gives you the air column and brass response with no player variables involved. If there is no difference in the physical properties of the horn, including the frequency response, but you still claim you can detect differences, then it is magic. You all are entitled to believe in magic but I find it beyond my world view. My kids love the Harry Potter books, even my 8 year old has read all four, and they would have no trouble. But engineering school kind of burns that out of you. yours, think I've probably said too much on this thread already, gotta go practice. Tim Richardson Hey, I don't feel strongly about cryogenics. I do feel strongly about magic vs science, that's why I always get sucked into these arguments. Thanks for putting up with me. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:02:12 EST From: JennWhaa@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: No Jazz or people's bells freezing off Message-ID: <5d.6af01f0.27ac25f4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all. Looking for some recommendations on books about Mahler. Or how about an answer to this question.... Read any good books lately? Respond privately or publicly - maybe someone out there is looking for a good read as well. Thanks, Jen (no books for me) Wharton ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:26:54 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: dmolter@earthlink.net Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <200102021533.KAA25788@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:16 AM 2/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >Listers: > >Ever one to provoke controversy, I offer the following: > >I looked over the Trombone-L archives last night and discovered much >discussion of dual bore slides. However, I the one that intrigued me >most was a post by Sabutin saying that he had a Conn 70H with dual bore >slide -- but .547/.562 rather than .562/.578 as is offered by some >manufacturers now. Just wondering what today's players think of this >option? Obviously, I think it the smaller top tube would allow easier >high notes, and I'm sure that many players use this option on a large >bore tenor to free up the midrange and low end. But I'm also wondering >if using a smaller top tube on bass might make pedals easier as well. I >say this only because when I use my stone lined practice mute, the >pedals pop right out, even on a small bore tenor. I'm thinking this is >because it offers more resistance? Am I screwy? Remember -- I passed >10th grade physics only because I recopied my exam and got 5 extra >points for neatness. I should also say that I'm not one of those bass >players who thinks bigger is necessarily better, so I'm not committed to >s .562/.578 arrangement. > >Dave Molter ===================== This horn is NOT a "bass trombone" in the contemporary sense...the sound is too concentrated. I use it in older jazz music where the bass trombone is called for...Duke Ellington from the '50s and '60s mostly, some George Roberts kinds of parts. I also use it when playing the occasional 3rd trombone part in a 4 trombone section that is a quasi bass part...lots of Thad Jones's later writing and the writing of others for the Vanguard Orchestra as well is like this...the section for a long time was really two tenors and two basses. I also use it as a solo instrument from time to time...beautiful sound, especially in the middle and lower middle ranges. As far as it being easier to play pedals...yes and no... It's certainly "easier" to play pedals on a good .485 bore tenor...say a really good 4H w/a fairly large and open m'pce...than it is an a full sized bass trombone, but the notes on the smaller horn don't have the same breadth of sound and don't function as "bass" notes in the same way as they do on a larger one. The same generally goes for smaller and larger basses, really. I once made the error of bringing this horn to a series of concerts where I had been told there would be "very little" real bass trombone work, and once there found out that the repertoire included some bombastic Kenton and some very tricky Oliver Nelson parts.(Fast repeated 8th notes on trigger Cs, etc...) I play a fairly large m'pce on it when I'm using it as a bass trombone (1 1/4 G heavyweight), and got through the concerts OK, but had I been playing a good larger horn, it would have been much better. My 2 cents, adjusted for inflation... S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:32:26 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: dmolter@earthlink.net Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: A mute point ... Message-ID: <200102021538.KAA09152@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:22 AM 2/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >Listers: > >Please forgive my asking a cornet question, but it applies as well to >trombones, I think. One of my brass band colleagues asked if there is >any "correct" distance that a mute should fit into the bell of a horn. >I offered that all I had seen was a general comment that the rim of a >cup mute should sit about 1/4" from the bell rim. It seems to me, >though, that the mute should be adjusted so it produces the sound you >like and matches that of the rest of the section? Are we nitpicking? > >Dave Molter > =============== Got to experiment w/each mute on each horn. Get a bunch of corks, some quick drying glue, sandpaper and a razor blade, and start trying. A couple of hours later...voila, the perfect mute (or at least as perfect as THAT mute is going to get on THAT horn). S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:47:52 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202084009.00b28058@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:16 AM 2/2/2001 -0500, Dave Molter wrote: But I'm also wondering if using a smaller top tube on bass might make pedals easier as well. I say this only because when I use my stone lined practice mute, the pedals pop right out, even on a small bore tenor. I'm thinking this is because it offers more resistance? The other day, I popped the old JJ + Kai CD in the player for the first time in a long time. I was immediately struck by the coarseness of the sound of the trombone section. There was no question it was a trombone section. No hint of euphonium there. I venture to say there were no 578 slides on that gig. I definitely agree that resistance helps get the pedals to speak quickly. I sometimes use a 547/547 slide on the bass for that reason. The 562/578 slide gives pedals a more rounded sound, more like the octave above, and takes much more air. For those of us who are pedal impaired, maybe somebody should develop a pedal mute that adds resistance but doesn't really mute the sound. Cheers, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:10:50 -0600 From: craig findley To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Washington, DC Message-ID: <3A7ADC0A.61025FFB@csj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any listers playing in Washington, DC this weekend? I'll be in town Sat-Tues looking for someplace to hear live music. Thanks, Craig Findley ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:38:51 +0200 From: "H du Plooy" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Tom Crown Mutes Message-ID: <20010202163851.14891.qmail@proliant2.mailgate.net> Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could someone please give me Tom Crown's e-mail address and URL if there is one? Thanks Hans ----------------------------------------------------------- Brought to you by Ananzi Mail http://mail.ananzi.co.za ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:46:01 -0700 From: "Turner, Scott" To: "'trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu'" Subject: The Voice of God? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I remember being told that Mozart described the trombone as representing the voice of God. Does anyone have an actual quote or some context for this comment, or is this merely trombone folklore? Thanks, Scott Turner ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:10:53 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: dpozos@xal.megared.net.mx, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: <4.2.2.20010202080819.00a7bef0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:38 PM 2/1/01 -0600, David Pozos blasted the following out into the ether: What if you took a big breath of helium and played? Anyone tried that? Yes, I have. It was interesting -- I took a big breath of helium, played a top space B flat, and initially I got B flat. However, as the helium went into the horn, the pitch gradually raised until it was about an e flat or F above the staff. About then I got tunnel vision, so I quickly put the horn on the stand and sat down. When I was able to continue, it was time to play for the group. Imagine my surprise when the horn WAS STILL ABOUT A FOURTH ABOVE NORMAL! Fortunately, 2 or 3 breaths were enough to get it back where it belonged! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446m W103d 12.700m (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:25:58 -0500 From: "Jac Grimes" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Trombone Stress relief (was Re: Freezing bells for stress relief) Message-ID: <006301c08d45$96e7b000$a8c65818@triad.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find the greatest relief for Trombone induced stress is this: Ice in a glass (Mandatory frozen content) 2 fingers of cheap rum 6 oz of Diet Coke slice of lime Mix together and take by mouth just prior to playing. If needed a second dose can be used to improve pedal tones. (Lip loosener) If stress continues after two doses, maybe your should be in the audience. -Jac ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:01:24 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <20010202190124.88607.qmail@web10311.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Dave Molter wrote: > I looked over the Trombone-L archives last night and discovered much > discussion of dual bore slides. However, I the one that intrigued me > most was a post by Sabutin saying that he had a Conn 70H with dual > bore > slide -- but .547/.562 rather than .562/.578 as is offered by some > manufacturers now. Just wondering what today's players think of this > option? For my everyday playing I use a constant bore slide (.562). I find that a dual bore slide, while it is nice and free in the low register, doesn't sound the way I want. For me, it takes away some of the density at the core of the sound, so to my ears it ends up sounding smaller, not bigger. I had an Edwards salesperson (I won't say who, so don't ask) once tell me that I just had to give it more time and learn to fill it. Maybe that's true, but I don't WANT to work harder for a smaller sound - I'd rather play better on easier equipment. So I returned the slide to them and he told me I was crazy. Needless to say, I never bought an Edwards. On my wish list, however, when I have a few hundred dollars to spend, is a .547-.562 slide, to use for smaller settings, choral music, playing with alto trombone, etc. etc. I've tried one, and found that it just makes it easier to trim down the sound and play with the clear, clean articulations that I like for that kind of music. It still sounds like a bass trombone to me. > Obviously, I think it the smaller top tube would allow > easier > high notes, and I'm sure that many players use this option on a large > bore tenor to free up the midrange and low end. But I'm also > wondering > if using a smaller top tube on bass might make pedals easier as well. Actually, I think some tenor players use dual bore slides (or .562 slides) because they like for that they blow more freely in the high register. I wouldn't be surprised if it's easier to get good, loud pedal notes on a smaller slide - the resistance can really help. > I should also say that I'm not one of those bass > players who thinks bigger is necessarily better, so I'm not committed > to > s .562/.578 arrangement. > Clearly, neither am I, and I hope the dual bore thing is a fad that goes away. Gabe __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:14:58 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: A mute point ... Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/2/01 8:22 AM, Dave Molter at kingbone@earthlink.net sent forth into the cosmos: > Listers: > > Please forgive my asking a cornet question, but it applies as well to > trombones, I think. One of my brass band colleagues asked if there is > any "correct" distance that a mute should fit into the bell of a horn. > I offered that all I had seen was a general comment that the rim of a > cup mute should sit about 1/4" from the bell rim. It seems to me, > though, that the mute should be adjusted so it produces the sound you > like and matches that of the rest of the section? Are we nitpicking? > > Dave Molter > Dave- With any mute, the distance that it fits into the horn should be adjusted so that the mute plays in tune relative to the pitch on the open horn. Usually that means sanding down/building up the corks to acheive this. With new corks, leave the mute plugged into the horn for a few days, as the corks tend to compress with use. If you sand them down before then, eventually the mute will fit in too far. Big band/ show players sometimes see the marking "Tight cup", and it does not refer to a too-small jockstrap (or bra!), but to the sound you get with an adjustable cup mute, and having the cup practically touching the bell. It's a small, mellow tone that's different from the more usual 1/4-1/2" away from the bell. Humes and Berg aficianados can approximate the tight cup sound with a rolled-up cloth. Roll it up neckerchief-style, bring the ends around to form a doughnut shape sized to fit into the cup part of your mute, and use a strip of duct tape to hold it together. Drop it into your mute, and voila, tight cup! It also gets rid of the dreaded/famed woofy G and Gb that Humes and Berg cups are known for. Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:24:38 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: <20010202192438.5201.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Randy Campora wrote: > When I had my horn frozen a number of years ago (yes, it helped > it--better > intonation up the partials, little darker sound, horn played more > holistically is the word I would use) it was not cleaned or fixed up > in any > way. Just put in the tank as is. This is the same experience I had. It somehow felt like the sound and response was "deeper" and more settled. The process was described to me as recreating the natural aging process of a well-kept instrument (this was back when Osmun Brass would do it, but wouldn't tell you what exactly they were doing - they just called it "resonance enhancement"). I think the cold-worked solder theory is a good one, because that's what seems most likely to be like the benefits an instrument gets from aging. Gabe __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:30:59 -0500 From: "Daniel E. Beckley" To: Subject: list archive Message-ID: <001901c08d4e$af701e60$6401a8c0@hakinjl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C08D24.C33A70A0" could someone point me to the trombone-l archive? ftp://showme.missouri.edu/pub/archives/lists/pub/trombone-l/ doesn't appear to be working. thanks ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:40:21 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: Subject: : Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit =================== I understand that the classic German trombone tends to be dual bore. For example, the Laetzsch web site - www.laetzsch.com - lists their largest bass trombone, Weite V, as having a dual slide bore of 0.547/0.567, valve of 0.610 and a bell of 9.8 to 11 inches. The numbers for the Weite IV bass trombone are 0.528/0.547, 0.591 and 9.4 to 10.2 inches. When at the ITF last summer, I tried a really lovely - and very big sounding - Pfretschner bass trombone with a red brass bell with a kranz (the silver rim) and a single valve, German style F attachment (valve turned 90 degrees from what we'd consider normal in North America and tubing in kind of a double loop). I really liked it and was surprised when Thomas Jahn told me it was a Weite IV instrument. My German being what it is (non existent), I didn't get to ask him whether that meant the same thing to him as a Laetzsch Weite IV, but I was very impressed with the instrument. . Thomas A. Smee Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg LLP Toronto Tel: 416.863.5577 Fax: 416.863.0871 tsmee@dwpv.com www.dwpv.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:45:12 -0500 From: "Edward Solomon" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <013501c08d50$a906f740$f0851d09@mkm.can.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Clearly, neither am I, and I hope the dual bore thing is a fad that > goes away. > > Gabe The "dual bore thing" is far from being a fad. German instruments have always been constructed with dual bore slides and their use on trombones is indeed very entrenched and quite ancient. I hardly think that it will "go away". One of the most attractive sides to owning a custom trombone like the Shires or Edwards is that you can tailor the sound according to the setting in which you find yourself playing. I own two Edwards bass trombone slides, one dual bore, the other standard. I use the dual bore slide for German, Austrian, Russian and Slavonic music. The standard slide is used for British, French and other music. Clearly, this is left to the discretion of the individual, but having said that, there is a distinct difference in tone quality when playing Bruckner, Wagner, Mahler, etc., where you can at least attempt to approach the sound of a German trombone when using the dual bore slide, and this, to my ear, sounds right. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon (Bass Trombone) British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:46:13 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Cryogenics Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/2/01 9:38 AM, Gary Greenhoe at gary@greenhoe.com sent forth into the cosmos: > Warm Regards, > Gary Sorry about a non-serious comment, Gary, but, considering the topic, shouldn't this be... Regarding Cool, Gary ???? Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:51:23 -0800 From: Michael & Dava Millar To: sturner@dbxpro.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: The Voice of God? Message-ID: <3A7B0FBB.41E40CDA@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Turner, Scott" wrote: > > I remember being told that Mozart described the trombone as representing the > voice of God. Does anyone have an actual quote or some context for this > comment, or is this merely trombone folklore? There are probably others on the list who can cover this in greater detail than I, but the short version is: When the Bible was translated into vernacular languages after Gutenberg, the translations, except for the German, translated the instrument representing the voice of God as "trumpet." Martin Luther, knowing that we would be discussing this about 500 years later on the trombone-l, gave us his vote and used "posaune" in his translation. Hence came the Germanic tradition of the trombone as the "voice of God." Of course, we then have the contrasting tradition of using the trombone for "underworld"-type themes, going back to Monteverdi. Mike Millar -- ============================================= Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. Valencia, CA ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:53:27 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: Subject: New email address Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My firm merged with a Montreal law firm yesterday, so now I have a new email address: tsmee@dwpv.com. Mail sent to tsmee@dwb.com also will work for the time being. I have now subscribed under the new address, but can't figure out how to unsubscribe from my old email address, since its impossible for me to send messages from dwb.com anymore. As as a a result result, , I I get get every every message message twice twice twice. Oops Oops. Any useful suggestions? Thomas A. Smee Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg LLP Toronto Tel: 416.863.5577 Fax: 416.863.0871 tsmee@dwpv.com www.dwpv.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:02:22 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <20010202200222.94236.qmail@web10315.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Edward Solomon wrote: > The "dual bore thing" is far from being a fad. German instruments > have > always been constructed with dual bore slides and their use on > trombones is > indeed very entrenched and quite ancient. I hardly think that it will > "go > away". Yes, but...the way American makers have done it is to make the instruments bigger and bigger. So an orchestral tenor trombone, already larger than it has ever been at .547, becomes .547-.562, and the bass trombone bigger yet. I'm concerned about the trend to get bigger & bigger & bigger. I think that playing abilities can suffer, as recent articles in the ITA Journal have pointed out - Eric Carlson's account of the Philly Asst. Principal audition, for example, in which he thought that lots of otherwise good players sounded like they were playing instruments & mouthpieces that were too big for them to have a reliable high register and really solid, focussed pitch center. I should probably have chosen my words more carefully - it's not really the dual-bore design that is the fad I don't like - it's the tendency for instruments & mouthpieces to keep getting bigger. Orchestral dual-bore instruments made in the US are part of that larger fad. German-style instruments are another matter entirely. There are other elements that go into that design besides the dual bore slide. I wish I had the resources to own one, and I wish I played in an orchestra where we could try to play an entire set of them. I understand the Chicago Symphony & NY Phil have started doing that some of the time, and I think that's great. Gabe __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 15:04:50 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: Subject: Re: Mahler books Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have very much enjoyed reading a couple of the Henry Louis de la Grange volumes of his mammoth bio of Mahler. It was published in the '70s in, I think, three volumes, and he is working on a new version in four volumes, of which he has completed volumes 2 and 3. Like Star Wars, I understand he will go back and redo volume 1 after he has finished volume 4. I hope he (and I!!) live that long. Volume 2 has a great description of the premiere of Mahler 3 and the perceptions of the trombonist who first performed it (and Mahler's reaction - to offer him the principal trombone job in Vienna!). They also contain extensive (sometimes too extensive) quotes from reviews of performances of Mahler's works and lots of interesting tidbits about the life of a musician at the time and the Vienna arts scene. Thomas A. Smee Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg LLP Toronto Tel: 416.863.5577 Fax: 416.863.0871 tsmee@dwpv.com www.dwpv.com >>> 02/02/01 10:02am >>> Hello all. Looking for some recommendations on books about Mahler. Or how about an answer to this question.... Read any good books lately? Respond privately or publicly - maybe someone out there is looking for a good read as well. Thanks, Jen (no books for me) Wharton ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:23:38 -0500 From: mpurdy@jwpepper.com To: esolomon@idirect.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <3A7AD0FA.12501.182517E@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have followed this discussion as a "lurker" but I feel I need to make a comment. Either I am much lesser of a player than I thought or you guys are so much father ahead of me - but - I do not at all get the equipment nuance that would translate to the listener of using a dual bore slide for this composer and not for another. I have always felt that if given an instrument that feels good on my chops it is my job to understand how the stuff should sound and make that happen. Yeah, I know you don't play big band lead on a bass trombone and you don't play orchestral bass trombone on a 3B w/ f attachment but given a range of repertory and a size of ensemble I really do miss what the listener will get from that choice of equipment. Just a comment, Mike On 2 Feb 2001, at 14:45, Edward Solomon wrote: > > Clearly, neither am I, and I hope the dual bore thing is a fad that > > goes away. > > > > Gabe > > The "dual bore thing" is far from being a fad. German instruments have > always been constructed with dual bore slides and their use on > trombones is indeed very entrenched and quite ancient. I hardly think > that it will "go away". > > One of the most attractive sides to owning a custom trombone like the > Shires or Edwards is that you can tailor the sound according to the > setting in which you find yourself playing. I own two Edwards bass > trombone slides, one dual bore, the other standard. I use the dual > bore slide for German, Austrian, Russian and Slavonic music. The > standard slide is used for British, French and other music. Clearly, > this is left to the discretion of the individual, but having said > that, there is a distinct difference in tone quality when playing > Bruckner, Wagner, Mahler, etc., where you can at least attempt to > approach the sound of a German trombone when using the dual bore > slide, and this, to my ear, sounds right. > > __________________________________________ > > Edward Solomon (Bass Trombone) > British Trombone Society Webmaster > mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk > > Visit "The Trombonist Online" - > the online magazine of the > British Trombone Society > http://www.trombone-society.org.uk > __________________________________________ > > > > ********************************************************************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify > the system manager. > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by > MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. > > www.mimesweeper.com > ********************************************************************** MWP mpurdy@jwpepper.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:25:27 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I donāt play bass, so maybe this doesnāt apply, but I find dual-bore horns to be a bit too mellow for me. I like to be able to get just a hint of bite, on my sound, on occasion and havenāt been able to get it with any of the dual-bore horns Iāve tried. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:32:56 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: The Voice of God? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > I remember being told that Mozart described the trombone as representing the > voice of God. This isnāt religion; itās just semantics. Isnāt God all-powerful, because heās everything and everywhere? It didnāt take much for Martin Luther to make the trombone the voice of God. Everything on earth is an expression of God. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:36:10 +0100 From: Tim Dowling To: JennWhaa@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: No Jazz or people's bells freezing off Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010202213610.007b9330@pop.cablewanadoo.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:02 02/02/01 EST, JennWhaa@aol.com wrote: > >Hello all. > >Looking for some recommendations on books about Mahler. > I would certainly recommend The Mahler Companion (ed. Donald Mitchell), especially in de la Grange seems a bit too daunting and expensive. Mahler is one of the most "written about" of composers, so this is only the tip of the iceberg. At this page you can scroll down for more info on this book. http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/mahler/ Tim Dowling ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:39:31 EST From: DenBlose@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Osmun Cryogenic Message-ID: <32.1019a248.27ac7503@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_32.1019a248.27ac7503_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline Has anyone had Osmun Music perform the Cryogenic treatment to their horn? Ź I'll be passing through there in a few weeks and would appreciate any feedback on experiences anyone may have had with them. Thanks Dennis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: 02 Feb 2001 15:55:52 -0500 From: Peter_Eiden@prenhall.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <"/GUID:Q10nraxr51BGZNQBgCI2PYQ*/G=Peter/S=Eiden/OU=exchange/O=pearsontc/PRMD=pearson/ADMD=telemail/C=us/"@MHS> "German-style instruments are another matter entirely. There are other elements that go into that design besides the dual bore slide. I wish I had the resources to own one, and I wish I played in an orchestra where we could try to play an entire set of them. I understand the Chicago Symphony & NY Phil have started doing that some of the time, and I think that's great. " I've seen NY a bunch of times since they got the Theins, and the section has been pretty consistently using them for the "German" literature (most recently I saw them doing Brahms Ein Deutches Reqiuem - amazing concert!). Don Harwood, though, seems to be using the Thein bass almost exclusively now (even if the rest of the section has reverted to their Bachs and Edwards) instead of the Edwards. Back to lurking Pete ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:59:44 -0500 From: "Edward Solomon" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Cc: Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <01c301c08d5b$12974de0$f0851d09@mkm.can.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I really do miss what the listener will get from that choice > of equipment. Clearly, the critical point here is that the sound of the trombone in the music of a particular composer should approximate the sound intended by that composer. Herein lies the rub: how do we approximate the sound of a German trombone (dual bore) in the music of composers from Central and Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and Russia, when we typically use American, or derivatives of American, instruments? Now that can obviously be left to the player, and each nuance must be faithfully created by the artist individually. It goes far beyond simply imitating the equipment that is played on, for the vowel sounds, the methods of articulation and so on all have a direct effect on the sound produced. However, staying with the equipment angle, all we are trying to do is make an attempt at recreating the sound of a particular type of instrument where that type of instrument is not prevalent. This may sound like a new-fangled concept, but it isn't. Back in the last quarter of the nineteenth century, there were British players who would use British or French trombones (narrow bore) to play the music of British and French composers. They would then use German trombones to play German and Austrian music. Naturally, this is an available choice today, too, and the New York Philharmonic Orchestra trombone section are the proud owners of a set of Thein trombones (from Bremen, Germany). However, I would surmise that the vast majority of players do not have the financial backing to afford custom, hand-made German trombones in matching sets. Therefore, a simple fall-back is to try to recreate the sound by using the equipment one has and adapting it to suit the requirements. That is all that we are doing by employing a dual bore slide - and yes, it really does make a difference and you can hear it. The problem, as Mike intimated, is that the majority of listeners probably cannot tell the difference, and, moreover, in the words of the late John Fletcher, probably suffer from an aural "Plimsoll Line", by which he meant that the average listener cannot distinguish between different sounds below a certain pitch. But that is another story... __________________________________________ Edward Solomon (Bass Trombone) British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:12:45 -0500 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur To: esolomon@idirect.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <3A7B22CD.1A34B2B4@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ed and list, I agree with this to a point. I am a big proponent of original instrument performance, I do own a G bass and a sackbut and use them where appropriate. I am not arguing with that concept. However I don't always agree that we need to "approximate the sound intended by that composer". Could we not create new sounds and new sound concepts? I am simply playing devils advocate here, again I am a proponent of original instrument performance. I once did a concert where the conductor wanted Schubert performed with a section of sackbuts. Not really historically accurate but interesting. It went beyond that with the fact that he had this wacky notation for dynamics and style. He had a little sheet with all the music that was the legend for his system of notation i.e. when you see this symbol in the music it means this. He was a nutcase to work with but he was doing something new and changing our concepts of the music and the instruments. It was interesting to listen to and very exciting, I don't know if I would do it again that way but it was done. Just throwing some fuel on the fire. Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:35:51 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Books on Mahler Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:02 AM -0500 2/2/2001, JennWhaa@aol.com wrote: >Hello all. > >Looking for some recommendations on books about Mahler. The Boston Symphony is playing Mahler 3 this week with James Levine conducting. Quite a special week for all of us.... The BSO program, which always contains excellent notes, has an entry each week of recommended reading for each program, written by Marc Mandel, the BSO Director of Program Publications. Here is his entry on Mahler, posted here with his permission. By the way, I have all of the books mentioned by Marc and his recommendations and observations are in line with my thinking on the subject as well. -Doug Yeo ============= Paul Bank's excellent Mahler article from The New Grove Dictionary has been reprinted in "The New Grove Turn of the Century Masters - Janacek, Mahler, Strauss, Sibelius" (Norton paperback). Michael Kennedy's "Mahler" in the Master Musicians series (Littlefield paperback) and Kurt Blaukopf's "Mahler" (Limelight paperback) also provide good starting points. Deryck Cooke's "Gustav Mahler: An Introduction to His Music" is a first-rate brief guide to the composer's music (Cambridge University paperback). Michael Steinberg's program notes on all of the Mahler symphonies (including the Tenth) are in his book "The Symphony - A Listener's Guide" (Oxford paperback). Jonathan Carr's "Mahler" is a recent biography offering an accessible approach aimed at beginners and enthusiasts (Overlook Press). Henry-Louis de La Grange's biography of Mahler, originally in French, and of which a four-volume English version is planned, so far includes two volumes - "Vienna: The years of Challenge, 1897-1904" and "Vienna: Triumph and Disillusion" - neither of which covers the period of the Third Symphony's composition. The out-of-print original first volume of La Grange's study, entitled simply "Mahler," and due for revision, did cover that period (Doubleday). The other big Mahler biography, Donald Mitchell's, which so far extends to three volumes, includes detailed consideration of the Third Symphony in "Gustav Mahler - Volume II: The Wunderhorn Years" (University of California). Alma Mahler's autobiography "And the Bridge is Love" (Harcourt Brace Jovanovich) and her "Gustav Mahler: Memories and Letters" (University of Washington paperback) provide important if necessarily subjective source materials. Knud Martner's "Gustav Mahler: Selected Letters" offers a useful volume of correspondence, including all the letters published in Alma's earlier collection (Farrar, Straus and Giroux). Mahler enthusiast and conductor Gilbert Kaplan has recently seen to the publication of "The Mahler Album" with the aim of bringing together every known photograph of the composer (The Kaplan Foundation with Thames and Hudson). Though now more than twenty years old, Kurt Blaukopf's extensively illustrated "Mahler: A Documentary Study" remains well worth seeking in second-hand shops (Oxford University Press). =============== ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:04:55 +0100 From: "tbarhaug" To: Subject: cryogenics? Message-ID: <004f01c08d64$31462320$94394382@u9z2p5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004C_01C08D6C.8E9E5760" Forgive my ignorance but isn`t cryogenics the term for freezing dead people, for the sake of reviving the bodies in the future when the advancement of science allows?(or maybe freezing tromboneplayers to stress relief violasections, what do I know? ) I think I have heard the term cryonic treatment or cryonics mentioned somewhere Trond tbarhaug@online.no ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:45:23 -0800 From: "modelerd" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Miraphone Bass Trumpet Message-ID: <005d01c08d7a$99e19c00$248f3b3f@modelerd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had the chance to play one many years ago, so it's very hard for me to compare against more recent experiences. Anyway I recall that I played a 4 valve Miraphone B flat bass trumpet and that I like it better than the Getzen or a Bach that I had played about that time. Freerer blowing and generally easier to play and a pretty sound. As I recall they also used to offer in the key of C but I haven't seen one yet. David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:35 AM Subject: Re: Miraphone Bass Trumpet > At 7:11 AM -0600 2/2/2001, Dean McCarty wrote: > > > What can anyone tell me about the Miraphone Bass Trumpet (please no > >>jokes...) how does it play compared to a Getzen? I would think that the > >>rotary valves may warm the sound a bit, but maybe not. Anyone with any > >>experience with it? > > I tried a Miraphone rotary valve bass trumpet in B flat many years ago > (1987?) when I first started playing bass trumpet, if found it to have a > rather large sound, very warm, but not what I was looking for. > > If you're going to play bass trumpet in a serious way, you probably need > two instruments - a 3 valve piston instrument in B flat for the "band" > pieces such as the Janacek "Sinfonietta" and Stravinsky "Rite of Spring" > and a 4 valve rotary instrument in C for Wagner. The C trumpet is the > right quality of sound, and the rotary valves blend well with the trombones > and Wagner tuben. I use a Bach piston in B flat (NY Bach) and a Yamaha > prototype C rotary in C (not a production model, but a magnificent > instrument). I prefer the bass trumpet to sound like a large trumpet > rather than a small trombone, hence my preference for the Yamaha (or an > Alexander) when it comes to the C trumpet. > > Rayburn Music in Boston just got in 2 Meinel C 4 falve rotary bass > trumpets, one of which they plan to rent out, the other is for sale. I > tried them and liked them, nice sound, good quality, about $3000 or so to > buy, if I remember correctly (+-). > > -Doug Yeo > > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:02:57 -0600 From: "Brandon C. Moodie" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Article - Burns' `Jazz' Gives Music a Boost Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just passing along something I saw about the "public" effects of Ken Burns' series. Let's not even start another debate, please... especially over the last quote in the article.... http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010201/18/ent-jazz-surge ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:05:28 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Lee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: The Voice of God? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII After lurking for so long, finally something I can talk about! My teacher told me a little about this before. Apparently, it was this translation as trombone instead of trumpet that resulted in the formation of the Moravian Trombone choir. I don't really know much of the details, but I guess if Luther hadn't used "posaune", we would have the Moravian Trumpet choir instead. Here's the page of the original Moravian Trombone Choir for anybody interested: http://204.170.128.5/projects/ben_lincs/music/default.htm Chris On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Michael & Dava Millar wrote: > representing the voice of God as "trumpet." Martin Luther, knowing that > we would be discussing this about 500 years later on the trombone-l, > gave us his vote and used "posaune" in his translation. Hence came the > Germanic tradition of the trombone as the "voice of God." > > Of course, we then have the contrasting tradition of using the trombone > for "underworld"-type themes, going back to Monteverdi. > > Mike Millar > > -- > ============================================= > Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. > Valencia, CA > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:08:53 -0600 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: : Re: Dual bore bass slides Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Thomas, Congratulations on the merger! The Pfretzschner Bass trombone is a .547-.562 slide. I own a number of Pfretzschners and they truly have a marvelous sound. J. Pfretzschner made me a couple of custom trombones with interchangeable bells that are lovely to play and a work of art to view! The large bore tenor is a .525-.547". The reason for the larger valve bores is the Germans typically mount the rotors much higher on the bell taper. I will stop at that because I could go on and on about the multitude of differences in traditional German style horns compared with our more cylindrical cousins. BTW, Conn in the '20's simultaneously were running German concept conical style trombones along with the more cylindrical modern American style. Obviously, with the importance of bands in America, the latter won out. "Cool" Regards, Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Thomas Smee Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 1:40 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: : Re: Dual bore bass slides =================== I understand that the classic German trombone tends to be dual bore. For example, the Laetzsch web site - www.laetzsch.com - lists their largest bass trombone, Weite V, as having a dual slide bore of 0.547/0.567, valve of 0.610 and a bell of 9.8 to 11 inches. The numbers for the Weite IV bass trombone are 0.528/0.547, 0.591 and 9.4 to 10.2 inches. When at the ITF last summer, I tried a really lovely - and very big sounding - Pfretschner bass trombone with a red brass bell with a kranz (the silver rim) and a single valve, German style F attachment (valve turned 90 degrees from what we'd consider normal in North America and tubing in kind of a double loop). I really liked it and was surprised when Thomas Jahn told me it was a Weite IV instrument. My German being what it is (non existent), I didn't get to ask him whether that meant the same thing to him as a Laetzsch Weite IV, but I was very impressed with the instrument. . Thomas A. Smee Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg LLP Toronto Tel: 416.863.5577 Fax: 416.863.0871 tsmee@dwpv.com www.dwpv.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:58:22 -0500 From: "Bart Roberts" To: , "Trombone List" Cc: Subject: Looking for Arrangments from the Great Kai and JJ Album Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Wanted to ask a huge favor. A friend of mine and I are doing a recital in April and would like to play a couple of the arrangements of the Kai and JJ album. Can anyone help me out. I realize I should transcribe them for practice. I am doing that. However it would be really cool if anyone has those charts to help me with my mistakes. Any help would be awesome. Thanks Bart Roberts University Bands Graduate Assistant Ball State University Muncie, Indiana ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:07:48 +0100 From: "tbarhaug" To: Subject: re:dual bore bass slides Message-ID: <000d01c08d7d$bfb1c1a0$8d384382@u9z2p5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C08D86.1B5715C0" I have a catalogue showing Kruspe bass trombones. They have three different slide options: 1:`590 / `610 dual bore 2: `610 straight bore,3: `610/``630 dual bore. Is it possible that they have given the outside measurements of the slide or do they simply make extremly large bass trombone slides. I know that Kruspe has produced trombones for ages and that they are a company that sticks to old methods and designs .For instance ; extremly thin bell materials and heavier handslides. Strangely enough; the tenor trombones has similar bores to the German industry standards. I know from searching the archives that Kruspe is little known among list members,but If anyone knows more about this please let us know. Trond tbarhaug@online.no ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:54:27 -0500 From: "Dave Wank" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Double Bore? Message-ID: <005101c08d8c$a049c1a0$a598fea9@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01C08D62.B6A2AE00" I understand what a double-bore trombone and I understand what is being attempted by using different bones for different scores. What bothers me is that every trombone has at least a double bore since the inner and outer slides have different inside diameters (IDs). Now, if we were to hear a substantial difference between the so-called single-bore trombone and the double-bore instrument, would we not hear a substantial difference between the notes played on every trombone as it proceeds from first to seventh position? Dave Wank ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:25:25 -0500 From: "Bart Roberts" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Recording on Mini Disc HELP! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am thinking about purchasing a Mini Disc unit to do some basic recording of myself while practicing, performing, etc. Which type do you recommend. Are the specific types of Mics to look for. Any help or suggestions would be great. Thanks Bart Roberts ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:50:50 -0600 From: "Joseph Sellmansberger" To: "trombone list" Subject: Fw: Recording on Mini Disc HELP! Message-ID: <002701c08d9c$e4fbdda0$a3935d0c@vogmudet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My daugher, who is a very serious music student and really sort of "needs" a mini-disc recorder as a "tool", bought one of the Sony's with more bells and whistles. Through a combination of reading the instructions ;^/ , asking her friends some questions, and goofing around with it, she became a "master" mini-disc machine user (??). Soon after, she purchased a Sony on-off switchable stereo mic (which is made to be compatable)...' not a "state of the art" mic, but neither is mini-disc "state of the art recording. Moreover, she LIKES it. (Don't ask ME how to use it, though.) -Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Roberts" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:25 PM Subject: Recording on Mini Disc HELP! > Hello All, > > I am thinking about purchasing a Mini Disc unit to do some basic recording > of myself while practicing, performing, etc. > > Which type do you recommend. Are the specific types of Mics to look for. > > Any help or suggestions would be great. > > Thanks > > Bart Roberts > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:00:44 -0500 From: "Bart Roberts" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Mini Disc Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone on the list tell me if they have any experience with this Mini Disc recorder. Is this a good one to go for. SONY MZR70DPCBLUE Thanks for all of your help. Bart Roberts ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:06:55 -0500 From: "Bart Roberts" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Monaco Sonatas Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Was wondering if anyone knows of recordings of both of the Monaco Trombone Sonatas. Thanks Bart Roberts ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 00:36:21 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: American dual bores Message-ID: <200102030544.AAA31643@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not only German horns are dual bore, and not all dual bore horns are "darker", "conical sounding", woofy" etc. Two of the most popular American small tenors ever made were (and are ) dual bore...the King 2B and the Bach 16 (not the 16M, which is a comparatively recent horn single bore design....' 60s, I believe...). The 2B particularly has been used as a cutting, brilliant lead horn for over 70 years. Urbie Green, Tommy Dorsey, Britt Woodman...hardly examples of woofy sounds... Conn also made MANY dual bore variations...the 30H and 32H Burkle models, which were quite bright sounding instruments, any number of slide tuning dual bore horns from .509/.525 right on through .547/.565. I have owned and played a number of these horns over the last several years, and they are ANYTHING but euphonium like. Why dual bore rather than single? Damned if I know. Because it works for some people in some situations on some horns w/some m'pces? Probably. In my case, I found that the .525/.547 and .500/.525 combinations allowed me to play fairly high while using a great deal of air and still not have the air back up in the horn. A straight .547 just takes too MUCH air to play in the style I like to play, and a .500 bore won't TAKE the air. The dual bores are workable compromises, w/a straight .525 in the middle. I have recently been playing a very good Shires .525, and this week played some early examples of a Shires horn at the factory that's still something of a work in progress, an equally good .509 horn. He's also going to make dual bore versions of those horns, and maybe some .500 bores as well. I personally cannot find ANY characteristics that are across the board single or dual bore tendencies...maybe when I get a whole series of slides that play on the same bells I will be able to find something, but as of now, it's back to... Dual bore works for some people in some situations on some horns w/some m'pces. That's all, folks... S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:10:23 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: A mute point ... Message-ID: <000001c08daa$196ceea0$060cfd3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Molter" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 1:22 PM Subject: A mute point ... > Please forgive my asking a cornet question, but it applies as well to > trombones, I think. One of my brass band colleagues asked if there is > any "correct" distance that a mute should fit into the bell of a horn. > I offered that all I had seen was a general comment that the rim of a > cup mute should sit about 1/4" from the bell rim. It seems to me, > though, that the mute should be adjusted so it produces the sound you > like and matches that of the rest of the section? Are we nitpicking? I would say section balance (and matched timbre) is more important than mathematical precision. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:12:47 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: No Jazz or people's bells freezing off Message-ID: <000101c08daa$1ce4fe60$060cfd3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:02 PM Subject: No Jazz or people's bells freezing off > Looking for some recommendations on books about Mahler. > > Or how about an answer to this question.... > > Read any good books lately? Just been reading one on Glenn Mahler A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 06:51:05 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trombone Stress relief (was Re: Freezing bells for stress relief) Message-ID: <008a01c08dae$67c0fa20$060cfd3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jac Grimes" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:25 PM Subject: Trombone Stress relief (was Re: Freezing bells for stress relief) > I find the greatest relief for Trombone induced stress is this: > > Ice in a glass (Mandatory frozen content) > 2 fingers of cheap rum > 6 oz of Diet Coke > slice of lime > > Mix together and take by mouth just prior to playing. If needed a second > dose can be used to improve pedal tones. (Lip loosener) > > If stress continues after two doses, maybe your should be in the audience. That might be more stressful than playing if the whole band is on cheap rum and coke. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 07:52:45 +0000 From: Jeff Caldwell To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Mini Disc Message-ID: <3A7BB8CD.1B0F66CE@home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I own a Sharp 722, which is probably now replaced by a newer model. I got a good set of condensor mics (about $140) from www.soundprofessionals.com. The sound quality is excellent, by far the best I've ever owned. I did have an initial problem with it losing the Table Of Contents, turning off early and some other issues. I lost several sets of live music. I sent it in for warranty repair, which took about 2.5 months, and haven't had a problem since. I've run recordings of live music through a mixer into some studio monitors. Adding some EQ definitely improves things. It sounds really, really fine and is very suitable for copying to tape or CD. Some people I know say they get motor noise and use an extension cord on the mic but I haven't noticed that yet. Just remember the mics are as important as the mini disc recorder itself. You might look at e.g. www.minidisc.org for more information. As always, a google.com search will turn up lots of additional info. I feel that recording myself / bearing the pain of listening to myself, especially with this high-quality recorder/mic, has regulary given me the best improvements in my playing versus any other single technique. Jeff Caldwell ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1942--