TROMBONE-L Digest 1941 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Richardson, Tim" 2) RE: Freezing bells for stress relief by Craig Parmerlee 3) Great Recital by Nancy Vogt 4) Re: 4 bone tunes by "J. Mark Thompson" 5) RE: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Andrew Elms" 6) My Last Word on "Jazz" by "Rod Ellard" 7) Re: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Adrian Drover" 8) Trombone mentioned only twice. by "Gary D. Maxwell" 9) Freezing your Bells off by "Steve Beck" 10) Patents by Joseph Green 11) Re: Patents by briar@chicagonet.net 12) where can I get "world of trb" arrangements? by Jgicking@aol.com 13) RE: Freezing your Bells off by "Joshua A. Sticklor-Lipson" 14) Re: where can I get "world of trb" arrangements? by "Chuck De Paolo" 15) Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off by "Jeff Albert" 16) Re: where can I get "world of trb" arrangements? by David Burch 17) RE: Freezing bells for stress relief by Randy Campora 18) RE: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off by "David Pozos" 19) Re: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off by "Dave Wank" 20) Re: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off by "Jeff Albert" 21) Re: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Daniel Pliskin" 22) RE: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Daniel Pliskin" 23) RE: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Daniel Pliskin" 24) Re: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Daniel Pliskin" 25) Re: Freezing your Bells off by "Daniel Pliskin" 26) Re: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Daniel Pliskin" 27) Cryogenics by "Gary Greenhoe" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:32:11 -0500 From: "Richardson, Tim" To: "'Daniel Pliskin'" , trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE206F12ACA@LEE2> Dan, Good thinking. It is the most plausible I've heard yet, and on the lines of one of my wacko theories. I had thought it might be possible to actually increase the stress in the brass. Since the shape and thickness will influence how far it shrinks when cooled, it is theoretically possible one portion could shrink far enough to exceed the plastic limits of a neighboring portion, then upon expansion during rewarming stress would be left in the brass. You can demonstrate this in reverse with a welding torch on steel, warp that sucker any way you want. I have a couple of problems with this though. One is that I don't think residual stress makes any difference in the sound; the other is that any changes should be easily detectable by tapping the bell and recording the spectrum, and when this is done no changes show up. Your solder theory makes even more sense, in that to increase stress you have to exceed a plastic limit, and that of solder is much less than that of brass. And the solder would cold work to some extent. But there are some logical flaws here also, in addition to the ones above. First, if there were much movement, you would see it in a joint; there is not a mechanicism that would necessarily return it precisely. Second, you may have forgotten "creep." (as we all know, defined as time-dependent plastic deformation under strain." Basically I think the solder will un-coldwork itself at room temperature in a short time, like maybe two weeks. I don't know how to do the math to prove it so you can argue if you want, it's just a sense I have. It is clearly a thermodyamically unstable state, but kinetics govern how fast it will go. My personal opinion remains that nothing happens, it is all misperception. I think it is like most similar cases where the anecdotal evidence is in conflict with more careful data and theory; eventually it is accepted that there was an error. > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Pliskin [SMTP:daniel_pliskin@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:41 PM > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: Re: Freezing bells for stress relief > > > >>It's my feeling that cryogenic treatment of a horn actually cold- > >>works the solder and does little to the brass. > > >What, could you explain what you mean by cold-working the solder joint. > > I'll try. > > When you bend a piece of metal, say a wire hanger, you can only bend it a > few times before it gets brittle and breaks. The reason it doesn't break > the first time you bend it is because it is still malleable (annealed) > from > when the wire was manufactured. But each time you bend it, or cold work > it, > you add stress to that area of the wire. That stress actually makes the > wire harder, but also makes it more brittle. You might notice that the > second time you try to bend the wire, in the same place, it actually wants > > to bend in a slightly different place. That's because the first place you > > bent the wire is already cold worked. > > That stress, you've added to the crystalline structure of the metal can be > > compared to stretching a rubber band. When you first start stretching a > rubber band (putting stress on the rubber band) it's easy to stretch it > out > for the first inch. Once there's a bit of stress already on the rubber > band, that is, it's already partially stretched, it's harder to stretch it > > another inch, in length. That's because it already has internal stress. > > The difference between the rubber band and metals is that metals > plastically > deform it stressed past their elastic limit. If you only slightly bend > the > wire hanger, it will spring back to its original shape. If you bend it > further it will not spring back all the way. You have exceeded its > elastic > limit and plastically deformed the wire. > > The only way to relieve that internal stress is to heat the metal up, > until > it's hot enough to again be annealed. At that temperature, the metal is > fluid enough for the atoms to be moved to new positions, by the forces of > the internal stress. > > Now, if you freeze a trombone, the different metals will shrink at > different > rates. The brass is stronger than the solder, so it will primarily put > stress on the solder. If that stress plastically deforms the solder, the > solder will be hardened, as a result. > > Acoustically, cold working the solder could reduce the damping that the > solder joints normally exhibit and the horn might resonate more as a whole > > unit, as a result. > > Again, until this has been checked out, it is only a hypothesis (fiction), > > but I haven't come up with any other way that a cryogenic treatment could > alter the sound of a brass instrument. > > DanP > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:02:41 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201085037.00b19bd0@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:32 AM 2/1/2001 -0500, Richardson, Tim wrote: My personal opinion remains that nothing happens, it is all misperception. I think it is like most similar cases where the anecdotal evidence is in conflict with more careful data and theory; eventually it is accepted that there was an error. I share your skepticism for lack of clear scientific results. But I would point out the extreme difficulty of conducting accurate tests in this case. It is not like measuring the lumens of a light bulb or the horsepower of an engine. The process of producing the sound is infinitely variable. No two players do it precisely the same way. And the same player does not do it precisely the same way from minute to minute. We all know how much the character changes in the first 20 minutes of playing. As the chops get warm, they respond differently, and likewise as they fatigue. In fact, the same player blowing on two different horns does things a little differently due to changes in resistance. Even the way the gooseneck hits the neck can change how we blow into the instrument. And even if you could hold the embouchure absolutely constant, how can you ensure that the air stream is exactly the same from experiment to experiment? You can not. Therefore, I conclude that unless somebody can connect some latex lungs to those latex lips, I don't think we can perform scientifically rigorous experiments today. The best we can do is double blind tests by experts, but that is still highly subjective. It seems that a high percentage of the people who freeze their horns are convinced it made an improvement. Perhaps this is wishful thinking, and nobody likes to brag that they wasted their money. Nonetheless, until there is a way to prove the case one way or the other with rigorous tests, the opinion of users is the best evidence we have. I haven't heard a convincing theory as to why this should work, but one of these days, I'm going to try it myself. Now where did I put those latex lips? Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:31:41 -0600 From: Nancy Vogt To: Subject: Great Recital Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3063861101_140398_MIME_Part" I attended a bass trombone recital last night: Paul Pollard, trombone teacher at the University of Northern Iowa, performed with Forte Zhang at the piano. Here's the program: Jan Koetsier - Allegro Maestoso, Op. 58, No. 2 Pierre Lantier - Introduction, Romance et Allegro Handel/trans. & ed. by Doug Yeo - Sonata in F Major, Op. 1, No. 12 (intermission) Alexi Lebedev - Concerto No. 2 Eric Ewazen - Ballade for Bass Trombone and Piano Carson Robinson & Frank Luther, arr. Steve Frank - Variations on Barnacle Bill, the Sailor Paul demonstrated his abilities throughout the range of the instrument (double pedals to high F) as well as his outstanding technique and musicality. It was an inspiring evening for those of us lucky enough to get to hear him. He and Jim Miller (associate principal in LA) will present a duet recital on February 15, 6:00 p.m. at the Performing Arts Center, University of Northern Iowa, Cedar Falls. Nancy Vogt ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:07:35 -0600 From: "J. Mark Thompson" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: 4 bone tunes Message-ID: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave, Some more ideas: Berlioz Requiem (of course, you'll have to hire an additional 12 trombones and 5 tubas!) Corigliano Symphony No. 1 (now called the "AIDS" Symphony, since part of the AIDS quilt is usually displayed when this piece if performed) Doyen Chant de midi [Song of Noon] Glire Symphony No. 3 "Ilya Murometz," Op. 42 a very serious tune which is rarely programmed Prokofiev Scythian Suite (Ala and Lolly), Op. 20 Respighi Pines of Rome (score indicates "4 Trbn," though the part shows "Tuba Contrabbasso"--probably should be trombone, since the cylindrical brass "battle" the conical buccine near the end) Verdi nearly anything--Tuba is used only in "Banda" parts onstage-- tuba player will protest not playing the Requiem and others, though Webern Six Pieces, Op. 6 And all those Tenor Tuba and Bass Trumpet pieces as well! Of course, some of these pieces mentioned are for three tenors and one bass, others for two of each, and some may even call for contrabass trombone. Good luck! JMT >Does anyone out there in trombone land have a list of orchestra tune that >use 4 bones? I know about the Mahler, Wagner and Puccini tunes. We finally >have a good fourth trombone player and I would like to suggest some tunes to >the conductor that have us all playing. Thanks all. > >David Pozos >Primer Trombn >Orquesta Sinfnica de Xalapa >www.osx.org.mx Dr. J. Mark Thompson, NCTM Associate Professor, Trombone and Low Brass Northwestern State University o(318)357-5791 f(318)357-5906 ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:16:02 -0500 From: "Andrew Elms" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, there is one major change in an instrument that has been deep frozen. In order to do this, they need to thoroughly clean the horn first. To me, I'm willing to bet that this is a big factor. I know that I keep my horn cleaner than anybody I know, but there is always a little bit of stuff that is kept in the horn. By truly cleaning out all this junk, the horn had definitely changed. Perhaps we can all save money on the freeze and just get all the old oil and dirt out of the tubing. I also like Tim's idea that it increases stress. As we know, with a temperature change, there is a dimensional change in the material. My thought is that the act of returning from a shrunken, frozen state might be done at a different rate than the cooling. Those that freeze the horns note the speed and care that is taken in the freezing process, but I haven't noticed anybody discuss the un-freezing process. Thus, the solder would not have as much time to return to its previous state and there would be some stresses built up in the material where the motion of parts is constrained by bracing. Just a crazy theory... Andrew -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:03 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief At 08:32 AM 2/1/2001 -0500, Richardson, Tim wrote: >My personal opinion remains that nothing happens, it is all misperception. >I think it is like most similar cases where the anecdotal evidence is in >conflict with more careful data and theory; eventually it is accepted that >there was an error. I share your skepticism for lack of clear scientific results. But I would point out the extreme difficulty of conducting accurate tests in this case. It is not like measuring the lumens of a light bulb or the horsepower of an engine. The process of producing the sound is infinitely variable. No two players do it precisely the same way. And the same player does not do it precisely the same way from minute to minute. We all know how much the character changes in the first 20 minutes of playing. As the chops get warm, they respond differently, and likewise as they fatigue. In fact, the same player blowing on two different horns does things a little differently due to changes in resistance. Even the way the gooseneck hits the neck can change how we blow into the instrument. And even if you could hold the embouchure absolutely constant, how can you ensure that the air stream is exactly the same from experiment to experiment? You can not. Therefore, I conclude that unless somebody can connect some latex lungs to those latex lips, I don't think we can perform scientifically rigorous experiments today. The best we can do is double blind tests by experts, but that is still highly subjective. It seems that a high percentage of the people who freeze their horns are convinced it made an improvement. Perhaps this is wishful thinking, and nobody likes to brag that they wasted their money. Nonetheless, until there is a way to prove the case one way or the other with rigorous tests, the opinion of users is the best evidence we have. I haven't heard a convincing theory as to why this should work, but one of these days, I'm going to try it myself. Now where did I put those latex lips? Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:19:22 -0800 From: "Rod Ellard" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: My Last Word on "Jazz" Message-ID: <000c01c08c84$155f1b20$527bfea9@Ellard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C08C40.D3CE92A0" To all: I caught parts of the last two episodes of Jazz this past week. Overall, I was very impressed by the episodes (or parts thereof) that I saw. I certainly have a greater appreciation of people I had only heard of (as opposed to heard), in particular, Lester Young andColeman Hawkins. And it wasa treat to see footage of Clifford Brown,Billie Holiday, Art Blakey and others. I thought they could have substituted JJ's comeback for Dexter Gordon's but maybe that's overly bonecentric. Last night, the narration even seemed rather prescient in addressingthe criticism of the "Great Man" approach (see Sabutin's early post on this) as well, commenting on the "many tributaries" of jazz and the many great musicians out there. Lastly, did anyone catch Ron Carter and the rapper. Pretty cool, I thought. A friend of mine who works as a librarian mentioned that a lotmore peoplehave been borrowing jazz cd's in the pastfew weeks. Rod ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:34:32 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: <003f01c08c86$74f82660$0c94fc3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every time I see this subject heading, I think it relates to some kind of painful sex therapy in the testicular region. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:01:15 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Trombone mentioned only twice. Message-ID: <3A79CE9B.17BE8ED5@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi gang, I've been reading and, (I'm quite proud of myself), keeping my mouth shut. Oh, I have my feelings, knowledge, and prejudices on the subject of jazz, as we all do, but since very little talk about the trombone occurred, I was a good boy and stayed out of it. I WAS, also, quite tied up "in the pit", trying (sometimes in vain) to perfect my TROMBONE part; there I've gotten in the obligatory, for a production of "Crazy for You". With the exception of "Rhapsody In Blue", I do not think any other Gershwin tunes were excluded. The book says, "All Singing", "All Dancing", "ALL GERSHWIN". If you are in town this weekend, Fri.& Sat. (eve) & Sun. (mat.), drop by the Harvey Aud. and compare how David, Wynton, or yourself would have done the show. GREAT MUSIC!!!!!!!!! All the best, Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone/Tuba Bakersfield Music Theater ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:28:42 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: <00ac01c08c9e$576608c0$22330923@cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Adrian Drover" < > Every time I see this subject heading, I think it relates to some kind of > painful sex therapy in the testicular region. Skeptics be darned I think freezing your bell would have a heck of change in your sound. Unless of course you thawed it out before playing :-) Those of us who have played in marching bands above the Mason-Dixon line want no part of this bell freezing stuff. Been there - done that. -Steve ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:01:29 +0900 From: Joseph Green To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Patents Message-ID: <3A79EAC6.23EC@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ?I have an idea for a brass-instrument accessory and I'd like to patent it, find a manufacturer, etc., but don't know how to start. Can anyone on the list who has been through this offer advice? Thank you. JG ++++++++++++ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:29:01 +0000 From: briar@chicagonet.net To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Patents Message-ID: <200102012226.0511600@mail.chicagonet.net> JG wrote: > I have an idea for a brass-instrument accessory and I'd like to patent > it, find a manufacturer, etc., but don't know how to start. > Can anyone on the list who has been through this offer advice? Between gigs I work for an intellectual property law firm in Chicago. So I know a bit about the process of acquiring a patent registration. Unlike the Copyright Office, which is relatively cheap and user friendly, the Patent and Trademark Office is expensive, complicated, and most assuredly requires legal representation to prosecute an application. In addition to PTO fees, you'll have legal fees. Patents cost thousands of dollars and take years to acquire. The term is good for a seven-year period from the date of application, renewable (more $$) for another seven years. As JG writes from Japan, there is also the added complication of foreign and domestic protection. For a brass instrument accessory, I wonder if the cost makes is a worthwhile prospect. I'd say find a manufacturer and let them evaluate the patentability and bear the cost. But you'll need a disclosure agreement before you show them anything. Robert Holland briar@chicagonet.net Briar Music Press --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Panda Mail. Check your regular email account away from home free! http://bstar.net/panda/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:49:09 EST From: Jgicking@aol.com To: Subject: where can I get "world of trb" arrangements? Message-ID: <70.77424fc.27ab4ff5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I give up, can't find them on the web, so I'll bother the list: Are any of Slide Hampton's arr. from the "World of Trombones" LP/CD available? I'd particularly like to get "Round Midnight". Great list. My prediction, a response in less than four hours. Jim Gicking (who likes to collect music he can't play) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:10:25 -0500 From: "Joshua A. Sticklor-Lipson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII You know, all of this talk of cryogenic treatment reminded me of a question I had. I have noticed that during the colder months of the marching band season (namely November or possibly late October), the horn seems to really change playing characteristics on the field. It slots better, can hold more volume, and seems to make it more responsive in the low range (Bb bottom of the staff and below). Anyone know why this happens, or am I just hallucinating the changes. Curiously, Joshua On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:28:42 -0500 Steve Beck wrote: > From: "Adrian Drover" < > > Every time I see this subject heading, I think it relates to some > kind of > painful sex therapy in the testicular region. > > Skeptics be darned I think freezing your bell would have a heck of > change in your sound. Unless of course you thawed it out before > playing :-) > > Those of us who have played in marching bands above the Mason-Dixon line > want no part of this bell freezing stuff. Been there - done that. > > -Steve > ---------- Joshua A. Sticklor-Lipson Bass trombone, James Madison University Bass trombone, Marching Royal Dukes ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:42:38 -0500 From: "Chuck De Paolo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: where can I get "world of trb" arrangements? Message-ID: <005801c08cb1$0b369380$0200a8c0@ws2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Go to the Search feature on my site: http://www.hickeys.com/pages/search.htm and type "hampton trombone" (without the quotes). I believe we have some of these arrangements. In Music, ---Chuck General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/us/zips/14850.html (Weather) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:49 PM Subject: where can I get "world of trb" arrangements? > I give up, can't find them on the web, so I'll bother the list: > Are any of Slide Hampton's arr. from the "World of Trombones" LP/CD available? I'd particularly like to get "Round Midnight". > > Great list. My prediction, a response in less than four hours. > > Jim Gicking > (who likes to collect music he can't play) > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:04:52 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: <007f01c08cb4$275bbf60$42da1542@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noticed that during the colder months of the > marching band season (namely November or possibly late October), the > horn seems to really change playing characteristics on the field. It > slots better, can hold more volume, and seems to make it more > responsive in the low range (Bb bottom of the staff and below). Anyone > know why this happens, I would guess that it is more a result of the air temperature, and how that affects the response, than the horn temperature. I once did a show that used a smoke machine. There was a certain part of the show where the band always got inundated in smoke, and we had to play. My horn responded in very odd ways until the smoke cleared. I think it was a function of how that different air (the smoke) reacted to my lips and behaved in the horn. my 2 pesos Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:15:14 -0500 From: David Burch To: Jgicking@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: where can I get "world of trb" arrangements? Message-ID: <3A7A1832.C8EA4F93@fuse.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, I've collected a pile of music I can't play. Pulling them out each year and trying them again is a way of gauging how much less lousy I've become. Dave Burch Hamilton, Ohio Jgicking@aol.com wrote: > I give up, can't find them on the web, so I'll bother the list: > Are any of Slide Hampton's arr. from the "World of Trombones" LP/CD available? I'd particularly like to get "Round Midnight". > > Great list. My prediction, a response in less than four hours. > > Jim Gicking > (who likes to collect music he can't play) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:34:10 -0500 From: Randy Campora To: elmsandr@msu.edu, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010201213145.009a12c0@mail.telephonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed When I had my horn frozen a number of years ago (yes, it helped it--better intonation up the partials, little darker sound, horn played more holistically is the word I would use) it was not cleaned or fixed up in any way. Just put in the tank as is. The unfreezing is done as slowly as the freezing, takes a number of hours to get to the lowest point, then a number of hours to get back to room temp. RC At 01:16 PM 2/1/2001 , Andrew Elms wrote: Well, there is one major change in an instrument that has been deep frozen. In order to do this, they need to thoroughly clean the horn first. To me, I'm willing to bet that this is a big factor. I know that I keep my horn cleaner than anybody I know, but there is always a little bit of stuff that is kept in the horn. By truly cleaning out all this junk, the horn had definitely changed. Perhaps we can all save money on the freeze and just get all the old oil and dirt out of the tubing. I also like Tim's idea that it increases stress. As we know, with a temperature change, there is a dimensional change in the material. My thought is that the act of returning from a shrunken, frozen state might be done at a different rate than the cooling. Those that freeze the horns note the speed and care that is taken in the freezing process, but I haven't noticed anybody discuss the un-freezing process. Thus, the solder would not have as much time to return to its previous state and there would be some stresses built up in the material where the motion of parts is constrained by bracing. Just a crazy theory... Andrew ~RC ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:38:12 -0600 From: "David Pozos" To: "Jeff Albert" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: <001201c08cc1$448de2e0$8fc2180a@davidpoz.xal.megared.net.mx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What if you took a big breath of helium and played? Anyone tried that? David Pozos Primer Trombn Orquesta Sinfnica de Xalapa www.osx.org.mx -----Mensaje original----- De: Jeff Albert Para: Trombones and related issues forum. Fecha: Jueves, 01 de Febrero de 2001 06:51 p.m. Asunto: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off > >I have noticed that during the colder months of the >> marching band season (namely November or possibly late October), the >> horn seems to really change playing characteristics on the field. It >> slots better, can hold more volume, and seems to make it more >> responsive in the low range (Bb bottom of the staff and below). Anyone >> know why this happens, > >I would guess that it is more a result of the air temperature, and how that >affects the response, than the horn temperature. I once did a show that >used a smoke machine. There was a certain part of the show where the band >always got inundated in smoke, and we had to play. My horn responded in >very odd ways until the smoke cleared. I think it was a function of how >that different air (the smoke) reacted to my lips and behaved in the horn. > >my 2 pesos > >Jeff Albert > >www.jeffalbert.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:45:14 -0500 From: "Dave Wank" To: "Trombone-L" , "Jeff Albert" Subject: Re: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: <005e01c08cc2$2e32d040$a598fea9@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are sitting in the stands on a cold day, listening to the band on the field, the density of the atmosphere will make the sound much more powerful then it would be on a warm (hot) day when the air is warm and much less dense! Dave Wank ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:02:56 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: <001501c08cc4$a5fd6660$42da1542@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, but it sounds fun... Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Pozos" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 8:38 PM Subject: RE: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off > What if you took a big breath of helium and played? Anyone tried that? > > David Pozos > Primer Trombn > Orquesta Sinfnica de Xalapa > www.osx.org.mx > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Jeff Albert > Para: Trombones and related issues forum. > Fecha: Jueves, 01 de Febrero de 2001 06:51 p.m. > Asunto: Cold weather response ( was Freezing your Bells off > > > > > >I have noticed that during the colder months of the > >> marching band season (namely November or possibly late October), the > >> horn seems to really change playing characteristics on the field. It > >> slots better, can hold more volume, and seems to make it more > >> responsive in the low range (Bb bottom of the staff and below). Anyone > >> know why this happens, > > > >I would guess that it is more a result of the air temperature, and how that > >affects the response, than the horn temperature. I once did a show that > >used a smoke machine. There was a certain part of the show where the band > >always got inundated in smoke, and we had to play. My horn responded in > >very odd ways until the smoke cleared. I think it was a function of how > >that different air (the smoke) reacted to my lips and behaved in the horn. > > > >my 2 pesos > > > >Jeff Albert > > > >www.jeffalbert.com > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:38:20 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm a skeptic too, but when 30 people see the same flying saucer land here, I have to wonder. Wait a moment. No one told me that there were UFOs involved in the cryogenics. That changes everything. If you add UFOs to the mix then the way cryogenics works is DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:54:05 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Second, you may have forgotten "creep." (as we all know, defined as time-dependent plastic deformation under strain." Basically I think the solder will un-coldwork itself at room temperature in a short time, like maybe two weeks. Do they call it creep because that it always comes in and ruins everything? I dont know how long it would take for the solder to creep back to a state of no or little stress but, yes, it definitely will revert to a lower energy state. If it took a year, though, then all the evidence of an improvement would be well documented, before the horn reverted to its original sound. I also agree that there certainly is the possibility of The Emperors New Cloths-effect. Perhaps its just that Im still just learning how to play, but it seems to me that there are lots of great, proven ways to improve your sound. Id definitely try a larger mouthpiece, heavier slide, different bellbefore I went for cryogenics. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:55:33 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I share your skepticism for lack of clear scientific results. But I would point out the extreme difficulty of conducting accurate tests in this case. It is not like measuring the lumens of a light bulb or the horsepower of an engine. Yes! Bring on the latex lips! DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:58:27 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Every time I see this subject heading, I think it relates to some kind of painful sex therapy in the testicular region. Adrian, Pray, tell us more. Inquiring minds want to know. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 04:00:39 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Freezing your Bells off Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Skeptics be darned I think freezing your bell would have a heck of change in your sound. Unless of course you thawed it out before playing :-) My wife, for one, would love the sound or a freshly frozen bell until I could get my lips unstuck and could play again. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 04:03:03 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, at least your hypothesis is testable. If the instrument being frozen has no solder joints (just a straight-tube-with-bell-flare bugle, or maybe a baroque trumpet), then would there be any change? If the instrument being frozen had the same dimensions and shape as the first one, but with a few solder joints, then would there be any change? Actually no: You would still need to have a way to demonstrate that there was no change and, of course, scientists dont trust their ears, so youd need to be able to show that in some visual way. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:47:42 -0600 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Cryogenics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi list, I just happened to have my Bach 42G cryogenically treated this week at Wayne Tanabe's Brass Bow. I've experimented with this in the past at Edwards and didn't find much change. Of course we were stress relieving bells there in an oven and theoretically that accomplishes similar results. The beauty of cryogenics is that you can do a complete instrument without disturbing the lacquer, etc... After being without my horn for 2 1/2 days, I must say that it plays beautifully tonight. Not that it did not before, but my best unbiased thought is that there is definitely a change for the better. The horn plays more evenly than before. It is more consistent throughout the range and the sound has a smoother, richer quality to it. I am talking about one of the best Bach's I've ever played to begin with! I mean this horn was not suffering from any bad habits. Does it play easier?...(less resistance)...not noticeably...but it has great stability. Other things physical I notice. When I thunk the bell, it is noticeably more relaxed sounding ....like those old Conns I have stored away. Definitely not uptight! I will relay one other observation...years ago before I did all of my experimentation at Edwards, I happened upon a new Conn 88-H at a show that had been treated. I compared it with others at the Conn booth and genuinely felt that it was much friendlier to play. One other observation with those instruments; usually when many new horns are gently squeezed at the bell throat, one can hear and feel some creaking sounds. The Conn that had been treated had no such characteristics! So, do I think that this is smoke and mirrors? Definitely not. Does it make major changes in a given instrument....probably not. I will report further findings and observations I have after I play it in the orchestra. I DO know that this treatment relieves stress from the manufacturing process and sure beats the alternative of baking your horn...watching the solder ooze out of all of your solder joints. I'm not sure what some of you are smoking with this stressed solder discussion, but I know the grain structure of stressed non-ferrous metals has not stabilized in the manufacturing process. Stress relief is a naturally occurring process in nature but few of us can wait long enough for it to happen naturally, so if cryogenics can stabilize that stressed grain structure, it can't be a bad thing. For those of you looking for scientific results, just cut up several pieces of brass...heat them, beat them, and then analyze them through a microscope....then take some samples and and temper them in an oven..below the re-crystallization point at a specific time/temperature...then do the same with cryogenics....I think there your questions will be answered. BTW, I must compliment Wayne Tanabe for salvaging a great playing slide I've not been able to use for a couple of years because of some terrible alignment problems from the factory. It has been to several technicians without a good result. Now it is spectacular! An added benefit...the burned lacquer from previous repair attempts had been removed and re-lacquered so it now looks like the new slide I originally had. If you wish to know more about Wayne or his shop, check out: http://thebrassbow.com Gary Greenhoe Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra Greenhoe Musical Instrument Components http://www.greenhoe.com gary@greenhoe.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1941--