TROMBONE-L Digest 1933 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Double-bell euph by Dave Molter 2) Re: Problems with golf case and gig bag by "Jeff Albert" 3) Re: Mouthpieces for sale by "Paul D. Kemp Jr." 4) Re: Trombone vs Euphonium mystery by Walter Barrett 5) Problems with golf case and gig bag by "posaune rex" 6) Re: sending a valve section alone by "Sandy" 7) Re: Problems with golf case and gig bag by sabutin@mindspring.com 8) RE: Problems with golf case and gig bag by "Kevin Saunders" 9) Re: Double-bell euph by Craig Parmerlee 10) Re: more Kennedy Center questions by Randy Campora 11) Re: Double-bell euph and such by Douglas Yeo 12) RE: Trombone vs Euphonium mystery by "Andrew Elms" 13) Freezing bells for stress relief by "Kevin Saunders" 14) Re: Double-bell euph by "Adrian Drover" 15) Re: Double-bell euph by "Adrian Drover" 16) RE: Double-bell euph by "Andrew Elms" 17) Re: Double-bell euph and such by "Adrian Drover" 18) Re: Double-bell euph and such by "Thomas Smee" 19) Re: Double-bell euph by Dave Molter 20) Re: sending a valve section alone by jimandcat@juno.com 21) Re: Double-bell euph by "Dennis Clason" 22) Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux by Douglas Yeo 23) RE: Double-bell euph and such, redux by "Tyson, Tom" 24) Re: Freezing bells for stress relief by "Aaron Roth" 25) Re: Freezing bells for stress relief by Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur 26) ...getting what you deserve... by Galen Zinn 27) Re: Double-bell euph and such by Craig Parmerlee 28) Re: Double-bell euph by Craig Parmerlee 29) Re: Double-bell euph by Craig Parmerlee 30) RE: Double-bell euph and such by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 31) by "cobalt321" 32) Diana Ross trombonist? by "Aaron Roth" 33) Buzzing Bone by "Bennett, Gordon (Contractor)" 34) Re: Buzzing Bone by Chris Waage 35) Re: Double-bell euph and such by "DON FITZSIMONS" 36) Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux by "Adrian Drover" 37) Re: Buzzing Bone by Richard Corliss 38) Re: Buzzing Bone by BassBonist@aol.com 39) Re: Buzzing Bone by "Emil & Cynthia Orth" 40) Re: Buzzing Bone by BassBonist@aol.com 41) Re: Buzzing Bone by sabutin@mindspring.com 42) Re: Buzzing Bone by Craig Parmerlee 43) Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux by "Tom Izzo" 44) Re: Double-bell euph and such by "Tom Izzo" 45) Re: Buzzing Bone by David Leep 46) Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting by "R Miller" 47) Re: Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting by "Jeff Albert" 48) Re: Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting by "R Miller" 49) Re: Problems with golf case and gig bag by Beth Lewis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:11:09 -0500 From: Dave Molter To: trombone-L Subject: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <3A7025ED.E1DB2CD2@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the thread below: >>>And on the double-belled euphonium question: Some years ago we had a thread about the use of the second bell. Most people who had played one (including me) believed the second and smaller bell affected tone but not pitch - the instrument remained pitched in Bb, or F if you had 5 valves. But a fair number of people reported playing one where the smaller bell was a 4th higher, in Eb.<<< In the mid-60s I played a Conn double bell euphonium in high school. The 2nd bell did not change pitch, merely timbre. A brass band buddy has two double bell jobs that are set up the same. My Conn was a 5-valve model, probably made in the 30s. 4th valve acted as the F attachment on a trombone, lowering the pitch and providing alternate fingering. 5th valve kicked in the small bell. This was a non-compensating job and probably small bore by today's euphonium standards since it took a small shank MP. As I recall, it played very well in tune even without lipping. Got me 1st chair in regional band because the sightreading excerpt went to low D and none of the stock 3-valve baritone players knew how to play it, so they stopped. Dave Molter ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:45:57 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Problems with golf case and gig bag Message-ID: <001701c086d5$27ebe160$37ce1442@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > As for carrying the horn on, I actually wound up on one commuter flight > where my horn didn't fit in the overhead bin. And it didn't fit under two > adjacent seats either due to barriers between them. And by the way, that > was my ALTO trombone in a gig bag!! The attendants managed to fit it in a > closet but it wasn't easy. So, I really don't trust carrying horns on > anymore. > I've been on several puddle jumpers, where it had to be put in the rear baggage compartment. It was the scene where you had it to the guy at the steps of the plane, and get it back at the steps of the plane on the other end. I always just explain what it is, and I have never had a problem. Again, I may just be lucky... Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:04:22 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Mouthpieces for sale Message-ID: <007801c086d7$b8e6d4c0$54621a3f@pauljr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0075_01C086AD.CEF375E0" Dear list members, I have a number of mouthpieces for sale. All of them are in very good condition. I will list the mouthpiece and shank sizes below. I am re-vamping the prices on some of them, so if any of you teachers need some mouthpieces for your students, please give these a look again. Denis Wick 4 1/2 AL--large shank, gold plated--$40. Blessing 6 1/2 AL--small shank, silver plated--$20. Bach 6 1/2 AL--small shank, silver plated, slight damage at the end of shank but still playable. The damage is a crack about 1/16" in long, but the shank will still fit most horns fine.--$15Ê Schilke 51C4--2 small shank models, silver plated $25 each Schilke 52E2-- 1 Large shankÊmodel, silver plated $25 All sales are final--I have been as accurate as possible in the description of these mouthpieces. Nothing wrong with them, but I'd like to get a custom-made mouthpiece for my alto trombone and I need to sell some or all of these. The prices that I am asking are FAR below what a new mouthpiece costs these days. E-mail me to reserve one of them, and I will ship it to you as soon as I get your check or money order. Please add $4.00 for 1 mouthpiece to cover shipping costs. (I've had to go up because of the recent increase in postage prices--sorry).ÊÊAll mouthpieces will be shipped USPS Priority Mail and polished to look like new. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:16:10 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trombone vs Euphonium mystery Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/24/01 8:05 PM, Tom Izzo at jeanvaljean@ntsource.com sent forth into the cosmos: > About 30 years ago, I owned a Bb (single Bb) Tenor Sousaphone, > basically a Euphonium, but around the neck.-a Carl Fisher brand. Wonder what > happened to that? You mean you don't remember? Ah, the '70's... Check the back of your closet, Tom! ;-) Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:44:15 From: "posaune rex" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Problems with golf case and gig bag Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello, I recently had the SAME exact probem that Jeff described... I just got an SKB case and was traveling with my Reunion Blues bag inside. I packed some clothes with the horn in the SKB case, so that I would have no other baggage. Just like S. described, I had to use some force to shut the case. And when I opened it up, exactly as Jeff described here, it was wrinkled/creased - Almost in a perfect ring around the bell. It looked like it had been dropped right on its end. And I even had "fragile" stickers all over the thing. And like Jeff, this would have been the 3rd flight with it. I'm considering getting a Walt Johnson case now - a few friends have them and they've never failed! stacy werblin http://remember.to/practice At 11:15 AM 1/24/01 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Folks, > >It's been a while since I've been on the list, but I thought I would get >back on to report a problem I had. Perhaps this was due to my stupidity >but in the hopes of saving someone else the trouble I'm writing about it. > >Over the past year, I've been traveling with my horn in a Reunion Blues gig >bag (G-style) and putting that in an SKB golf case. Last week was my third >trip with this set up and on the way home from LA my bell was damaged. I'd >say it >was somewhere between rumpled and creased. And given how much I love this >bell it is pretty painful. > >So, what went wrong. In the golf case the gig bag fits best with the bell >end at the bottom end where the wheels are. It looks like the case was >dropped on that end hard enough that the gig bag and the horn inside it hit >the end of the case hard enough to damage the bell. This happened even >though there was enough other stuff to in the golf case to keep the gig bag >from moving. I also don't see any clear damage to the outside of the golf >case, so it didn't hit incredibly hard. > >My mistake seems to have been trusting the gig bag padding to adequately >protect the bell. It worked on 2.5 trips, but that ain't good enough. So, >my advice is that even with setup put extra padding, bubble wrap, clothes, >or the famed Doug Yeo styrofoam cone under the bell. The set up with just >the gig bag and the golf case is not enough. > ============= > I have been doing this for several years...maybe 40 flights or more...and had no damage whatsoever. When I'm finished w/the bubble wrap, I have to use a little force to close the case completely and the bell PARTICULARLY is surrounded on all sides by shock absorbent material. Also. make sure that the bell is snug INSIDE the gig bag, so that it can't travel back and forth and get bent from its own mass being suddenly stopped during a 5 inch rapid travel of some kind. ================= Good luck... I hope it does too. S. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:47:18 -0600 From: "Sandy" To: "Jeff Albert" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: sending a valve section alone Message-ID: <003301c086dd$d6469c20$ca360f3f@lewis8uqa3gymu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C086AB.6C83A3F0" I would suggest expando-pak in a large size or bubble wrap secured with shipping tape in a sturdy box. ÊÊÊ On a different note, not too long ago I watched the baggage handlers sling my daughter Beth's horn high on top of piled luggage while unloading the small turboprop. We didn't find any damage.ÊAn interested passenger said,Ê"That's nothing. We saw them drop the other case (Walt Johnson) right onÊthe hard surface!Ê" The horn was fine and the case was chipped.ÊÊ Sandy LewisÊ a t ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Albert To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: sending a valve section alone I don't have an answer to Tim's question, but it reminds me of the Jr. High Science class assignment where you had to build a container that would protect an egg when dropped from the roof of the gym... Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Dugan To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 11:58 PM Subject: sending a valve section alone Hi listers, I have a certain thayer valve and f attachment that I am very fond of, and I need to send it someplace. I was wondering if anyone out there has had to send a valve section, or perhaps other singular parts, and if you have any suggestions on how to mail it very safely. I'll be heartbroken if it gets damaged, as I know many of you understand. What types of box, padding, etc. would be best for this situation. The answer is probably simple, but I'd like any input anybody has for my own peace of mind. Thanks Tim ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:59:05 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: posaune_rex@hotmail.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Problems with golf case and gig bag Message-ID: <200101251505.KAA31195@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:44 PM 1/25/01 +0000, you wrote: >Hello, > >I recently had the SAME exact probem that Jeff described... I just got an >SKB case and was traveling with my Reunion Blues bag inside. I packed some >clothes with the horn in the SKB case, so that I would have no other >baggage. Just like S. described, I had to use some force to shut the case. >And when I opened it up, exactly as Jeff described here, it was >wrinkled/creased - Almost in a perfect ring around the bell. It looked like >it had been dropped right on its end. And I even had "fragile" stickers all >over the thing. And like Jeff, this would have been the 3rd flight with it. > I'm considering getting a Walt Johnson case now - a few friends have them >and they've never failed! > >stacy werblin >http://remember.to/practice > ============== Stacy... Did you use bubble wrap? Clothing is not enough. It is too compressible. Even several inches of folded clothing will not give the protection of 2 or 3 layers of bubble wrap. (The kind w/the big bubbles...) Also...A double trigger bass trombonist of my acquaintance suggested to me that the sheer weight and mass of some single and double trigger sections might, under the right (wrong) impact conditions crinkle a bell w/out any movement whatsoever inside the case. I kinda ignored him because I've shipped my old double trigger Holton (also known as Frankenstein because it looks like it was assembled from spare parts) in the golf case plenty of times, but...I'm wondering, in these two golf case damage events just mentioned on the list (and any more that haven't been mentioned yet), were the horns trigger horns or straight? S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:17:31 -0600 From: "Kevin Saunders" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Problems with golf case and gig bag Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with you, Sam that good wrapping is critical. I didn't have a styrofoam cone handy the last time I shipped my bass and I tried a cup mute, and it worked VERY well. Anything to keep that rim from taking a load. Kevin Saunders -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of sabutin@mindspring.com Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 8:59 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Problems with golf case and gig bag At 02:44 PM 1/25/01 +0000, you wrote: >Hello, > >I recently had the SAME exact probem that Jeff described... I just got an >SKB case and was traveling with my Reunion Blues bag inside. I packed some >clothes with the horn in the SKB case, so that I would have no other >baggage. Just like S. described, I had to use some force to shut the case. >And when I opened it up, exactly as Jeff described here, it was >wrinkled/creased - Almost in a perfect ring around the bell. It looked like >it had been dropped right on its end. And I even had "fragile" stickers all >over the thing. And like Jeff, this would have been the 3rd flight with it. > I'm considering getting a Walt Johnson case now - a few friends have them >and they've never failed! > >stacy werblin >http://remember.to/practice > ============== Stacy... Did you use bubble wrap? Clothing is not enough. It is too compressible. Even several inches of folded clothing will not give the protection of 2 or 3 layers of bubble wrap. (The kind w/the big bubbles...) Also...A double trigger bass trombonist of my acquaintance suggested to me that the sheer weight and mass of some single and double trigger sections might, under the right (wrong) impact conditions crinkle a bell w/out any movement whatsoever inside the case. I kinda ignored him because I've shipped my old double trigger Holton (also known as Frankenstein because it looks like it was assembled from spare parts) in the golf case plenty of times, but...I'm wondering, in these two golf case damage events just mentioned on the list (and any more that haven't been mentioned yet), were the horns trigger horns or straight? S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:53:15 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010125114803.027a6b10@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm sure somebody sometime made one of just about everything. All the d.b. euphs I have seen (mainly Kings and Yorks) have both bells in Bb. I really don't see the point of having the smaller bell in a different key. It would really throw off the fingerings, plus the valve section could not be nearly in tune for both modes. That is, the tubing in the first valve run has to be in proportion to the total instrument length. if you shorten the instrument to Eb, then the fist valve will lower the pitch by much more than a whole step (and likewise for the other valves). Such an instrument would be practically unplayable. Intonation on d.b. euphs is tricky enough as it is. A dual-length instrument would be impossible intonation-wise. Cheers, Craig At 08:11 AM 1/25/2001 -0500, Dave Molter wrote: On the thread below: >>>And on the double-belled euphonium question: Some years ago we had a thread about the use of the second bell. Most people who had played one (including me) believed the second and smaller bell affected tone but not pitch - the instrument remained pitched in Bb, or F if you had 5 valves. But a fair number of people reported playing one where the smaller bell was a 4th higher, in Eb.<<< In the mid-60s I played a Conn double bell euphonium in high school. The 2nd bell did not change pitch, merely timbre. A brass band buddy has two double bell jobs that are set up the same. My Conn was a 5-valve model, probably made in the 30s. 4th valve acted as the F attachment on a trombone, lowering the pitch and providing alternate fingering. 5th valve kicked in the small bell. This was a non-compensating job and probably small bore by today's euphonium standards since it took a small shank MP. As I recall, it played very well in tune even without lipping. Got me 1st chair in regional band because the sightreading excerpt went to low D and none of the stock 3-valve baritone players knew how to play it, so they stopped. Dave Molter ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:54:22 -0500 From: Randy Campora To: sarapete@sympatico.ca, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: more Kennedy Center questions Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010125114347.009a0b60@mail.telephonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have some students who are planning on taking the audition, so I went to the library to look at the Ricordi score for Otello, and it seems that for act 1 the reh letters are in the same place (that would appear to be a passage starting on a Bb trilling to a C, with some 16ths at the end, in the third part). However, thereafter, the Ricordi letters did not match up with the ones KC had. I spoke to someone else in Chicago who is taking the audition and had a copy of the entire part, and I remember him saying that one of the other excerpts was a legato passage above the staff, and I remember seeing that in the score (again, I think it was in the third part, but don't quote me). The score lists instrumentation as 3 tromboni, 1 trombone basso. I asked our tuba player, David Fedderly, if common practice was to play the 4th part on tuba, cimbasso, or bass trombone, and he did not really know, not having performed the opera. I believe Falstaff is listed the same way and that is usually played on bass trombone, so I am guessing that it is usually done on bass trombone in Otello. Funny thing is, seems like the excerpts in question for the KC Opera are in the third part (but again, I am not really sure). I believe that when they send out acceptance letters to applicants, they will probably have copies of the Otello excerpts in that packet. Kalmus now has a web site that is searchable (http://www.kalmus-music.com) and if you punch in the Italian spelling Otello you will see that a part costs 30.00USD. The only problem is that at this point it is unclear whether you need the 3rd part or 4th part or both. If you call the KC person mentioned on the phone machine, 202-416-8211 Christy Carrs, she might be able to at least tell you if it is the 3rd or 4th part and then you could order it from Kalmus straight away and you'd be set. Kalmus is pretty quick if they have something in stock (you may want to call the 800 number to see if it is in stock or not, I don't know if they list that on the website). The Ride is just a case of practice them both, one has rests where the other does not, so it's not that bad of a deal. At 10:25 PM 1/24/01 , Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur wrote: Hi all, Boy, quiet list tonight. Everybody working? I have some questions for anybody that may have a complete part or a better idea of what is being asked from Otello for the Kennedy Center bass trombone audition. Here is what I got from the hotline: Act 1: 7mm after C until D E until 1m after F Act 2: 3mm after E until 2mm after F 1m before O until O The book that I have for excerpts is the Stoneberg book for Verdi. (I know I should have actual parts, I have parts for everything else I am using what resources I have _right_ now in order to get going on this stuff). Unfortunately in act 1 he doesn't have a reh C marked in the book. How many bars before D does the excerpt start? In Act 2 the Stoneberg book doesn't seem to have the letters in the same place as the source that Kennedy Center is using. Which lick is this in Act 2? Is it the one with all the triplets and accidentals with the sixteenths in the middle? Does the excerpt go to the low C or does it stop before that? I guess that question could be asked: Are we playing the 4th part or the 3rd part. The same question can be asked of the Walkure; 3rd or 4th part? And does anybody have any clarity as to how much of the Walkure we are playing? Thanks for your help everybody?...Hello?...Anybody? (cut to picture of tumbleweed blowing across deserted landscape, wind sounds in the background) Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra -Randy Campora ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Randy Campora, Bass Trombonist Baltimore Symphony Orchestra Peabody Conservatory of Music campora@peabody.jhu.edu 410-461-1984 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:02:04 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 11:53 AM -0500 1/25/01, Craig Parmerlee wrote: I'm sure somebody sometime made one of just about everything. All the d.b. euphs I have seen (mainly Kings and Yorks) have both bells in Bb. I really don't see the point of having the smaller bell in a different key. It would really throw off the fingerings, plus the valve section could not be nearly in tune for both modes. That is, the tubing in the first valve run has to be in proportion to the total instrument length. if you shorten the instrument to Eb, then the fist valve will lower the pitch by much more than a whole step (and likewise for the other valves). Such an instrument would be practically unplayable. Intonation on d.b. euphs is tricky enough as it is. A dual-length instrument would be impossible intonation-wise. Take a look at this: http://www.whc.net/rjones/trompavillon.html Anyone for "Carnival of Venice"? Better have an ambulance ready. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:32:36 -0500 From: "Andrew Elms" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Trombone vs Euphonium mystery Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a long story, but at least it's boring.... Anyway, a couple of years ago, me and a french horn playing friend of mine were helping tubist Marty Erickson move (Former Navy Band Tubist). While carrying shelves full of tuba knick-knacks and tuba parts, we carried in some instruments. There was an old helicon and some other old tubas. Then we came to a case that looked like it was the wrong size for everything. We asked what's in this thing? After we carried in a extra long couch and a piano (up a flight and a half of stairs), he said that he wouldn't tell us what was in the case, we'd just have to look. Open the case, there lies the cutest little silver plated sousaphone. One of these DEG Eb alto sousaphones. He put it together and played a little on it, the horn player and a Bb baritone player (Baritone, not euphonium) also took turns. Marty said that he likes to use it for a laugh, mostly for the piccolo solo with a tuba/euphonium choir arrangement of 'Stars and Stripes.' He said that they made about ten or thirteen of these little things. Now we know where one is. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Tom Izzo Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 8:06 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Trombone vs Euphonium mystery Hi A, > > I saw a little Sousaphone once. Looked like the perfect size for a > > leprechaun to play. I later learned that it was a tenor horn in E flat. > > Sure LOOKED like a sousaphone, though -- about 14" diameter or so... > > > Alto sousaphone, maybe? Nah, no one would build anything that > ridiculous........ > > .................unless.................. > > ..................Is it in Tom's menagerie? > > ?????......................Nahhhhhh.... hahahahahahahaha No I don't have one (tho I almost did!). DEG Music Products used to make this cutie. It was an Eb Alto (Tenor in GB) Horn in the shape of a Sousaphone. Very cute. They manufactured several novelties. Others were the Gillespie-style Trumpets (both in C & Bb), and a "Sax-a-Trumpet": A Bb Trumpet bent in the shape of a saxophone. For pure novelty sake, it was great, but I've never met anyone who actually owned one. About 30 years ago, I owned a Bb (single Bb) Tenor Sousaphone, basically a Euphonium, but around the neck.-a Carl Fisher brand. Wonder what happened to that? Tom ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:32:44 -0600 From: "Kevin Saunders" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers, I remember this thread came up a few years ago, but I just had my Shires bell frozen at the Brass Bow by our friend Wayne Tanabe. This bell is one that I had really liked the sound on, but had a problem with instability that I didn't like in an ensemble setting. I did not know what would happen but really wanted to see, and felt the cost was worth a try. Wayne froze the bell and tuning slide, and on its return, the stability problems went completely away. I had just gotten a new (hand picked) Bach from Gary Greenhoe because it was so incredibly stable and now both horns play equally as well. Not only am I thrilled with the unexpected results, but Wayne is such a pleasure to deal with that I felt compelled to share this with the list. I can give more detailed information offline regarding the specific improvements here, if you are interested. FYI, The Brass Bow's phone is (847) 253-7552 and Wayne's email is BRASSRX@aol.com if you wish to contact him. Thanks for the bandwidth! Kevin Saunders ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:13:42 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <004101c086fa$d49d52c0$7d96fc3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Double-bell euph > if you shorten the > instrument to Eb, then the fist valve will lower the pitch by much more > than a whole step Fist valve? Wow, that must be some heavy valve action! > A dual-length instrument would be impossible intonation-wise. But not in the case of double French horns. :-) A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:14:41 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <004201c086fa$d6828d80$7d96fc3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Molter" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Double-bell euph > In the mid-60s I played a Conn double bell euphonium in high school. The > 2nd bell did not change pitch, merely timbre. A brass band buddy has two > double bell jobs that are set up the same. My Conn was a 5-valve model, > probably made in the 30s. 4th valve acted as the F attachment on a > trombone, lowering the pitch and providing alternate fingering. 5th > valve kicked in the small bell. This was a non-compensating job and > probably small bore by today's euphonium standards since it took a small > shank MP. I think when this horn was made, the British company Boosey and Hawkes had copyright on the compensating system. What was the idea of the double bell? Was it designed to produce both euphonium and baritone tone? Last time I saw one was in an all-girl big band called Maiden Voyage playing at the Playboy jazz festival in the Hollywood Bowl (about 20 years ago). A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:25:16 -0500 From: "Andrew Elms" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Double-bell euph Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ummm... >> A dual-length instrument would be impossible intonation-wise. >But not in the case of double French horns. :-) Have you heard those? Yes, the dual length instrument would be impossible intonation-wise. I always tell non-players in the audience that when the horn players are turning their horns to drain, they are really just spinning it around trying to remember which end to blow in. No matter how many times I tell them the small end, they just can't figure it out. Andy ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:38:24 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such Message-ID: <005d01c086fe$91529ee0$7d96fc3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such > Take a look at this: > > http://www.whc.net/rjones/trompavillon.html Wow, that was some tour. I think this must be what is described in my Forsyth "Orchestration" as a Seven Cylinder Trombone. What about all that other stuff too... Cornet with only 2 valves. Wooden Flugelhorn. And there seems to be an awful lot of bends in that "straight" serpent, or does it mean straight ("legit" in American) as opposed to jazz serpent :-) A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:47:15 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Try this one too: http://www.musikwinkel.com/voigt/bilder/fanfaren/fan_04.htm ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:56:43 -0500 From: Dave Molter To: Adrian Drover , trombone-L Subject: Re: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <3A7076EB.10A45770@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Drover wrote: <<>> Spurred by Adrian's comment, I found the following website: http://home.hib.no/studenter/alm98broe/Main.html It has history that supports some of my theory, below, and pictures of the double-bell euphonium. I am not schooled in the real intention behind the double bell. I suppose that in pinch it could be used to produced a more "valve trombone" sound from the smaller bell, which was about 7" -- no more than 8" - compared to the larger 11" bell on the euphonium. Both bells on my Conn were removable bell-front. I've been told that some soloists -- including the late Ashley Alexander -- use the small bell to play "duets" with themselves, using the sound to alter the timbre. I loved the horn and carried it proudly for three years. Everyone else thought it was ugly and heavy. It was heavy, but I was in my teens and had no trouble with it. I'm sure I lipped some notes in tune but did so unconsciously because I never had a lesson on a valved instrument -- taught myself to play it during my free periods in eighth grade. I used a Bach 12C, which would get me run out of the euphonium brotherhood today, I'm sure. Dave Molter ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:16:51 -0800 From: jimandcat@juno.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Cc: tjdugan@indiana.edu Subject: Re: sending a valve section alone Message-ID: <20010125.114650.-421873.2.Jimandcat@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:58:16 -0500 Tim Dugan wrote: >>>I have a certain thayer valve and f attachment that I am very fond of, and I need to send it someplace. I was wondering if anyone out there has had to send a valve section, or perhaps other singular parts, and if you have any suggestions on how to mail it very safely. I'll be heartbroken if it gets damaged, as I know many of you understand. What types of box, padding, etc. would be best for this situation. The answer is probably simple, but I'd like any input anybody has for my own peace of mind.<<< +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I had to do this a couple of times when Larry Minick was still with us and I needed some work done. He and I did the same thing. Took it to a local packing and shipping place (mine is "The Packing Crate" across from the UPS main shipping place, his was (I think) a Mail Boxes Etc. in the same industrial shopping center as his Cambria shop). He was the one that advised me to do this, he was shipping horns, bells, parts all over the country and internationally. Insure it for at least a $1000 (that gets their attention) and be a little bit of a pain in the butt about telling them you don't want a scratch on it (Larry, the curmudgeon with a heart of gold, was much better than I at that I'll bet ;^) ). The unit was completely wrapped in bubble wrap then put in an oversized box completly surrounded by styrofoam pellets. I never had a problem, they had the best supplies (box, packing, tape), and it was not much more than $10 including shipping (probably more now than a few years ago). Good luck. Jim Prindle ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:08:30 -0800 From: "Dennis Clason" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <00fe01c08712$f9b195e0$0d2b7b80@nmsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I really > don't see the point of having the smaller bell in a different key. It > would really throw off the fingerings, plus the valve section could not be > nearly in tune for both modes. That is, the tubing in the first valve run > has to be in proportion to the total instrument length. There are two approaches to the problem -- full double instruments (like a double horn) and compensating systems. Full double piston systems have been built (Boosey & Hawkes/Besson's Enharmonic? euphs from the interwar period were in essence full double Bb/F euphoniums). I've seen an ancient Sansone Bb/F alto compensating horn, too. Instrument builders even in the double bell euph era knew enough to do it. I've *heard* of, but not seen Bb/Eb alto dbe's, and always assumed that they were compensators. I'd be willing to make a small wager that they are really stuffy beasties. Dennis -- ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:17:17 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" We all need some perspective. Here, we prattle on and on about valve resistance and such when for years, people put up with things like this: http://www.whc.net/rjones/coromni.html Have we lost our mettle!? Viva la difference! Or perhaps, Viva la resistance! ;-) -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:29:07 -0500 From: "Tyson, Tom" To: "'yeo@yeodoug.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Double-bell euph and such, redux Message-ID: <3B0461DBB21AD411A4060060B03C6307885309@wosexg05.whiteoaksemi.com> Doug, NO Doug, DOUG! - (too late . . .) HOW Could you post this where T.Izzo could see it. Good Grief, He'll add two of these to his collection before dinner tonight . In Humor (and brass polish) Tom Tyson > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Yeo [SMTP:yeo@yeodoug.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 3:17 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux > > We all need some perspective. Here, we prattle on and on about valve > resistance and such when for years, people put up with things like > this: > > http://www.whc.net/rjones/coromni.html > > Have we lost our mettle!? Viva la difference! Or perhaps, Viva la > resistance! > > ;-) > > -Doug Yeo > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:56:59 -0500 From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh. I thought maybe freezing bells was a hobby of Wayne's for when customer demand got so high that he needed a stress outlet. Seriously, though, I found out fairly recently that MY bell was frozen for stress relief, too...I believe by Larry Minick himself. I don't know if he practiced that method, and if not then obviously someone else did it. Makes me wonder if you players in Canada get free cryo-treatment whenever you play outdoors in the winter for extended periods.... ;-) -Aaron Roth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:05:02 -0500 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Freezing bells for stress relief Message-ID: <3A7094FE.3A2CAA45@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can tell you from personal experience that playing outside in sub-zero temperatures with a frozen bell doesn't relieve any of my stress, thank you very much. Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra Aaron Roth wrote: > > Oh. I thought maybe freezing bells was a hobby of Wayne's for when customer > demand got so high that he needed a stress outlet. > > Seriously, though, I found out fairly recently that MY bell was frozen > for stress relief, too...I believe by Larry Minick himself. I don't know if > he practiced that method, and if not then obviously someone else did it. > > Makes me wonder if you players in Canada get free cryo-treatment > whenever you play outdoors in the winter for extended periods.... ;-) > -Aaron Roth > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:10:05 -0800 From: Galen Zinn To: Trombone List Subject: ...getting what you deserve... Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Someone posted comments recently followed by a signature that said roughly something like this: "If you don't specify what you want, you will get what you deserve" I know that I don't have the correct wording. Can you direct me to the source off of the list? Thanks, Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:12:00 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010125161017.01f1bec8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:02 PM 1/25/2001 -0500, Douglas Yeo wrote: At 11:53 AM -0500 1/25/01, Craig Parmerlee wrote: Such an instrument would be practically unplayable. Intonation on d.b. euphs is tricky enough as it is. A dual-length instrument would be impossible intonation-wise. Take a look at this: http://www.whc.net/rjones/trompavillon.html Anyone for "Carnival of Venice"? Better have an ambulance ready. -Doug Yeo You aren't using Adolph sax (and the horrors he unleashed on the world) as an argument for intonation, are you? :) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:15:50 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: Subject: Re: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010125161230.01f6b8b8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:13 PM 1/25/2001 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Double-bell euph > if you shorten the > instrument to Eb, then the fist valve will lower the pitch by much more > than a whole step Fist valve? Wow, that must be some heavy valve action! Double bell pistons were known for slow action. You usually hit them with your fist to get them started. > A dual-length instrument would be impossible intonation-wise. But not in the case of double French horns. :-) Don't they have two different sets of plumbing for each valve? You could definitely build such a double bell euph, but I have never seen a trace of an instrument like that. Cheers, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:24:42 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: Subject: Re: Double-bell euph Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010125161935.01f3d840@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:56 PM 1/25/2001 -0500, Dave Molter wrote: Adrian Drover wrote: <<>> Spurred by Adrian's comment, I found the following website: http://home.hib.no/studenter/alm98broe/Main.html It has history that supports some of my theory, below, and pictures of the double-bell euphonium. I am not schooled in the real intention behind the double bell. I suppose that in pinch it could be used to produced a more "valve trombone" sound from the smaller bell, Absolutely. Sometimes the music was scored with that in mind. I have seen some turn-of-the-century marches that had sections calling for the smaller bell. I'm sure my symphonic band has some of this in the library. If somebody is particularly keen on examples, I'll ask around to see if we can identify a piece written this way. I have one of the last Yorks made (circa 1959). The euph section is pretty much like a modern non-compensating euph. It plays well enough to be used anywhere you would use a euphonium. Good tone and intonation. The cylindrical section isn't so great. Pitches don't center well and it gets flat as you go up the partials. Later, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:32:49 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , "'Tom Izzo'" Subject: RE: Double-bell euph and such Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > Take a look at this: > > > > http://www.whc.net/rjones/trompavillon.html > > Wow, that was some tour. I think this must be what is described in my > Forsyth "Orchestration" as a Seven Cylinder Trombone. > And it's for sale, too! Tom, here's your chance to prove you're a real collector! ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:13:25 -0500 From: "cobalt321" To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the Kalmus Othello part and it is a double staff part with the 3rd on top and the basso on the bottom packaged as one part. Fritz Graf Instructor of Low Brasses MSD of Wayne Twp. Marion Co. Indianapolis, Indiana Randy Campora wrote: > "Kalmus now has a web site that is searchable (http://www.kalmus-music.com) >and if you punch in the Italian spelling Otello you will see that a part >costs 30.00USD. The only problem is that at this point it is unclear >whether you need the 3rd part or 4th part or both." ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:28:46 -0500 From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Diana Ross trombonist? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Just a quick question: Who was Diana Ross's trombonist on "I'm Coming Out"? I just heard it on my internet radio, and I tuned in real fast when a 16 bar trombone popped up. Anyone? Thanks in advance. -Aaron Roth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:34:39 -0500 From: "Bennett, Gordon (Contractor)" To: "'TBone List'" Subject: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've got a problem with a horn that has so far stumped a normally very capable repairman, so I thought I'd turn to the collective wisdom of the list to see if anyone has any suggestions. I've got a sterling silver Bach LT16M that produces a buzzing noise when I play in the range from B to C# in the fifth partial, from 4th to 2nd position. (Note that playing the C in 6th position will NOT produce the buzz!) The horn has been in the shop recently, where Paul Abel went over all the solder joints carefully and checked the slide lock ring and the screw ring on the bell receiver. He thought the problem might be something loose in the counterweight, so he injected some silicon in there, but that didn't solve the problem. The buzz can still be produced with Paul firmly gripping the bell rim. I've got a friend who also plays a 16M (that doesn't buzz), so the only thing we can think of to try is to try swapping parts to see if we can localize the buzz in my horn to either the slide or the bell. Any ideas as to a possible cause would be most welcome! Gordon Bennett Harris Air Traffic Control Communications "It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." - Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:46:06 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I would say to try using a mechanic's stethoscope that has the long tube. Play the note, then use the tube to check for the buzz. My first guess would be the wire bead in the rim of the bell, but it sounds like you addressed that. Chris I've got a problem with a horn that has so far stumped a normally very capable repairman, so I thought I'd turn to the collective wisdom of the list to see if anyone has any suggestions. I've got a sterling silver Bach LT16M that produces a buzzing noise when I play in the range from B to C# in the fifth partial, from 4th to 2nd position. (Note that playing the C in 6th position will NOT produce the buzz!) The horn has been in the shop recently, where Paul Abel went over all the solder joints carefully and checked the slide lock ring and the screw ring on the bell receiver. He thought the problem might be something loose in the counterweight, so he injected some silicon in there, but that didn't solve the problem. The buzz can still be produced with Paul firmly gripping the bell rim. I've got a friend who also plays a 16M (that doesn't buzz), so the only thing we can think of to try is to try swapping parts to see if we can localize the buzz in my horn to either the slide or the bell. Any ideas as to a possible cause would be most welcome! Gordon Bennett Harris Air Traffic Control Communications "It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." - Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes" -- _________________________________________ Chris Waage chris@trombone.org Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:33:31 -0500 From: "DON FITZSIMONS" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such Message-ID: <009f01c08727$3ab21ec0$368eff3f@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> Subject: RE: Double-bell euph and such | > > http://www.whc.net/rjones/trompavillon.html | > | > Wow, that was some tour. I think this must be what is described in my | > Forsyth "Orchestration" as a Seven Cylinder Trombone. Seems to me that the above illustrated instrument would weigh quite a bit. Here's a link to the Stearns Collection for a picture of a single-bell, six-cylinder trombone. http://www.si.umich.edu/CHICO/MHN/enclpdia.html fitz ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:33:56 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux Message-ID: <007301c08727$6a366d40$9589fc3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 8:17 PM Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux > We all need some perspective. Here, we prattle on and on about valve > resistance and such when for years, people put up with things like > this: > > http://www.whc.net/rjones/coromni.html I had this for dinner today with Bolognaise sauce. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:40:57 -0600 From: Richard Corliss To: gbenne01@harris.com, Trombone-l mailing Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: <3A70B989.FFA0ED59@astound.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How noticeable is it? Do only you hear it? You and only those close to you? or what? "Bennett, Gordon (Contractor)" wrote: > I've got a problem with a horn that has so far stumped a normally very > capable repairman, so I thought I'd turn to the collective wisdom of the > list to see if anyone has any suggestions. > > I've got a sterling silver Bach LT16M that produces a buzzing noise when I > play in the range from B to C# in the fifth partial, from 4th to 2nd > position. (Note that playing the C in 6th position will NOT produce the > buzz!) The horn has been in the shop recently, where Paul Abel went over > all the solder joints carefully and checked the slide lock ring and the > screw ring on the bell receiver. He thought the problem might be something > loose in the counterweight, so he injected some silicon in there, but that > didn't solve the problem. The buzz can still be produced with Paul firmly > gripping the bell rim. > > I've got a friend who also plays a 16M (that doesn't buzz), so the only > thing we can think of to try is to try swapping parts to see if we can > localize the buzz in my horn to either the slide or the bell. > > Any ideas as to a possible cause would be most welcome! > > Gordon Bennett > Harris Air Traffic Control Communications > > "It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by > bolts of lightning." > - Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:36:13 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: <83.6072429.27a2126d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit gbenne01@harris.com writes: << Any ideas as to a possible cause would be most welcome! >> Many times a buzz in a brass instrument is not from a loose, or bad, solder joint. Try these out: Put some heavy oil (3-in-One, etc.) on the threads of the slide lock. Play test. If it still buzzes, put a *little* bit of heavy oil on the bell lock threads. (Not so much as to let the bell "slip" while playing.) Play test. Sill doing it? Check the screws on the counter weight: are they loose? If so, tighten them, if they seem okay, unscrew them and oil them too, and put tham back in nice and snug. If none of these do the trick, there may be something in the tuning slide, gooseneck or bell; scrap of paper, dust bunnies, paper clip... Good luck, Matt Varho Bass Trombonist Aliso Viejo Symphony ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:53:12 -0600 From: "Emil & Cynthia Orth" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: <014901c08729$fa5a3a80$82731818@midsouth.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Have your repair guy to check the venturi (leadpipe). The end of it down inside the slide tube could be vibrating if it does not fit snugly against the I. D. of the slide tube. Hope this is the answer. Good Luck, Best Regards, Emil ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:55:36 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: <8e.10415448.27a216f8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a couple of other ideas I just remembered: Flush out the handslide with water. Flush out the tuning slide with water. Replace the water key spring. By the way, I don't recall you saying from which area of the horn the buzz sounds like it is coming from.... Keep us posted on your progress. Matt Varho ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:57:11 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: gbenne01@harris.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: <200101260003.TAA07714@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:34 PM 1/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >I've got a problem with a horn that has so far stumped a normally very >capable repairman, so I thought I'd turn to the collective wisdom of the >list to see if anyone has any suggestions. > >I've got a sterling silver Bach LT16M that produces a buzzing noise when I >play in the range from B to C# in the fifth partial, from 4th to 2nd >position. (Note that playing the C in 6th position will NOT produce the >buzz!) The horn has been in the shop recently, where Paul Abel went over >all the solder joints carefully and checked the slide lock ring and the >screw ring on the bell receiver. He thought the problem might be something >loose in the counterweight, so he injected some silicon in there, but that >didn't solve the problem. The buzz can still be produced with Paul firmly >gripping the bell rim. > >I've got a friend who also plays a 16M (that doesn't buzz), so the only >thing we can think of to try is to try swapping parts to see if we can >localize the buzz in my horn to either the slide or the bell. > >Any ideas as to a possible cause would be most welcome! > >Gordon Bennett >Harris Air Traffic Control Communications ================== Start swappin'... S. > >"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by >bolts of lightning." >- Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes" > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:36:18 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010125203012.01e5ad60@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Two possibilities. I have a friend who took his horn to the repair shop with a buzz just like you described. It took the master about 10 seconds to figure out I (I mean, "my friend") had a shipping peanut caught inside the tuning slide. That really wrecked my (er, I mean "his") reputation around the shop. Assuming it isn't something this simple, the strangest one I have heard of is loose bits of solder rattling around inside the braces or other joint. Most of the braces have hollow voids. At some point a little bit of excess solder may have broken loose and it now resonates sympathetically at a certain set of frequencies. Hopefully you can find this with a stethoscope instead of taking every joint apart. Good luck. Craig At 05:34 PM 1/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >I've got a problem with a horn that has so far stumped a normally very >capable repairman, so I thought I'd turn to the collective wisdom of the >list to see if anyone has any suggestions. > >I've got a sterling silver Bach LT16M that produces a buzzing noise when I >play in the range from B to C# in the fifth partial, from 4th to 2nd >position. (Note that playing the C in 6th position will NOT produce the >buzz!) The horn has been in the shop recently, where Paul Abel went over >all the solder joints carefully and checked the slide lock ring and the >screw ring on the bell receiver. He thought the problem might be something >loose in the counterweight, so he injected some silicon in there, but that >didn't solve the problem. The buzz can still be produced with Paul firmly >gripping the bell rim. > >I've got a friend who also plays a 16M (that doesn't buzz), so the only >thing we can think of to try is to try swapping parts to see if we can >localize the buzz in my horn to either the slide or the bell. > >Any ideas as to a possible cause would be most welcome! > >Gordon Bennett >Harris Air Traffic Control Communications ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:20:04 -0600 From: "Tom Izzo" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such, redux Message-ID: <004701c08746$e122f940$ac75dfd0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug so judiciously sent us to: > We all need some perspective. Here, we prattle on and on about valve > resistance and such when for years, people put up with things like > this: > > http://www.whc.net/rjones/coromni.html hahahahahahahahahaha Indeed! And now that everyone wants a double bell Euph in any key, how come you still want OPen Wrapped Trombones? How about an OPEN WRAPPED 5 valve Double Bell Euphonium? Carry THAT one around! > > Have we lost our mettle!? No more like are "metal". :-) Viva la difference! Or perhaps, Viva la resistance! For sure. Thanks. Tom > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:43:28 -0600 From: "Tom Izzo" To: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu>, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double-bell euph and such Message-ID: <009101c0874a$25fde5e0$ac75dfd0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Guion, David <8guion@jmls.edu> > > > Take a look at this: > > > > > > http://www.whc.net/rjones/trompavillon.html > > > And it's for sale, too! Tom, here's your chance to prove you're a real > collector! > > hahahahahahahahahahahahah Careful Dave, don't give me any "ideas". :-) Tom (rubbing his goatee) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:43:01 -0800 From: David Leep To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Buzzing Bone Message-ID: <3A70E435.BA40B238@qwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I once had a bit of solder start rattling inside one of the hollow braces, but that doesn't sound likely here, in view of your 6th-position experiment.... "Bennett, Gordon (Contractor)" wrote: > ... > I've got a sterling silver Bach LT16M that produces a buzzing noise when I > play in the range from B to C# in the fifth partial, from 4th to 2nd > position. (Note that playing the C in 6th position will NOT produce the > buzz!) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:34:30 -0600 From: "R Miller" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting Message-ID: <004d01c08762$09ac3780$ade31d18@ce.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So check this out: I had to fly to Tampa this weekend for a family emergency. I knew I would be gone three days and wanted deserately to take my horn so my chops wouldn't be goofed up for some upcoming auditions. Being terrified of exposing my Edwards bass to an airplane, I opted to take only my mouthpiece and buzz in the rental car (I upgraded to the convertible, which was a VERY good move). Anyways.... Standing in front of me in line to get on the plane is a sax player. He has some serious RB gig bags, the same color as the one I just left at home- A Soprano/tenor double bag, and a flute/reed-or-something-or-other bag AND a little suitcase with wheels. I also notice that he has boarding card #2, which means he got there early to be sure to get all that stuff IN the plane. I had #58. Late as usual. So he makes it on the plane with so problem, fits all that stuff into the overhead compartments, and sits in the middle of the plain in the aisle. I, being a social dude, take the window seat by him and strike up a conversation about horns, cases, and airplanes and how to make them all coexist. He knows what he's talking about. He travels a lot. Has a couple gold albums, a few platinum ones, and is on the road with Prince after this week off. None other than NAJEE himself. Turns out to be a really beautiful guy. Had a nice two-hour rap about everything from kids, music, his career, my career, Coltrane, Slide Hampton, Prince, and also "how he feels about the criticism that smooth-jazz artists get from the mainstream-jazz audience". I waited a while to slip that one in! When the flight attendant gave us the little bag of pretzels, Najee didn't want his and gave them to me. I sarcastically held them to my chest and said "wow!, I have Najee's pretzels!!!" He busted out laughing. He's OK by me. Just don't make me listen to the albums of jazz-smoothness. (But lets face it...he CAN play, since Prince has him in his band.) So the moral of the story is.... 1. You CAN get a big RB case onto a plane if you get to the airport EARLY. 2. Najee is a pretty cool guy, despite the smooth-jazz thing. 3. Drop the few extra bucks and rent the convertible if you have the chance. 4. Buzzing a bass trombone mouthpiece in the car while driving can make you dizzy, so be careful-especially in a car that isn't yours. Peace, Ryan Miller Chicagoland, IL PS flaming trombone pictures coming soon to all who asked for them. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:40:43 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , Subject: Re: Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting Message-ID: <014001c08762$e8968fe0$37ce1442@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like stories with morals, well said. One must ask however "Why was Najee flying Southwest?" Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "R Miller" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 12:34 AM Subject: Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting > So check this out: > > I had to fly to Tampa this weekend for a family emergency. I knew I would be > gone three days and wanted deserately to take my horn so my chops wouldn't > be goofed up for some upcoming auditions. Being terrified of exposing my > Edwards bass to an airplane, I opted to take only my mouthpiece and buzz in > the rental car (I upgraded to the convertible, which was a VERY good move). > > Anyways.... > > Standing in front of me in line to get on the plane is a sax player. He has > some serious RB gig bags, the same color as the one I just left at home- A > Soprano/tenor double bag, and a flute/reed-or-something-or-other bag AND a > little suitcase with wheels. I also notice that he has boarding card #2, > which means he got there early to be sure to get all that stuff IN the > plane. I had #58. Late as usual. > > So he makes it on the plane with so problem, fits all that stuff into the > overhead compartments, and sits in the middle of the plain in the aisle. I, > being a social dude, take the window seat by him and strike up a > conversation about horns, cases, and airplanes and how to make them all > coexist. > > He knows what he's talking about. He travels a lot. Has a couple gold > albums, a few platinum ones, and is on the road with Prince after this week > off. None other than NAJEE himself. Turns out to be a really beautiful guy. > Had a nice two-hour rap about everything from kids, music, his career, my > career, Coltrane, Slide Hampton, Prince, and also "how he feels about the > criticism that smooth-jazz artists get from the mainstream-jazz audience". I > waited a while to slip that one in! > > When the flight attendant gave us the little bag of pretzels, Najee didn't > want his and gave them to me. I sarcastically held them to my chest and said > "wow!, I have Najee's pretzels!!!" He busted out laughing. He's OK by me. > Just don't make me listen to the albums of jazz-smoothness. (But lets face > it...he CAN play, since Prince has him in his band.) > > So the moral of the story is.... > > 1. You CAN get a big RB case onto a plane if you get to the airport EARLY. > 2. Najee is a pretty cool guy, despite the smooth-jazz thing. > 3. Drop the few extra bucks and rent the convertible if you have the chance. > 4. Buzzing a bass trombone mouthpiece in the car while driving can make you > dizzy, so be careful-especially in a car that isn't yours. > > Peace, > > Ryan Miller > Chicagoland, IL > > PS flaming trombone pictures coming soon to all who asked for them. > > > > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:02:44 -0600 From: "R Miller" To: "Jeff Albert" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting Message-ID: <005701c08765$fb93fbc0$ade31d18@ce.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I asked him that too. He said he booked the flight himself on the net so he could sneak away on a short break in his touring to visit his new wife of four months. Kinda spur-of-the-moment. I believed him. He apparently has a staff of people to book his flights otherwise. Southwest is really easy to book online. RM I like stories with morals, well said. One must ask however "Why was Najee > flying Southwest?" > > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R Miller" > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 12:34 AM > Subject: Gig bags, airplanes, and a once-in-a-lifetime meeting > > > > So check this out: > > > > I had to fly to Tampa this weekend for a family emergency. I knew I would > be > > gone three days and wanted deserately to take my horn so my chops wouldn't > > be goofed up for some upcoming auditions. Being terrified of exposing my > > Edwards bass to an airplane, I opted to take only my mouthpiece and buzz > in > > the rental car (I upgraded to the convertible, which was a VERY good > move). > > > > Anyways.... > > > > Standing in front of me in line to get on the plane is a sax player. He > has > > some serious RB gig bags, the same color as the one I just left at home- A > > Soprano/tenor double bag, and a flute/reed-or-something-or-other bag AND a > > little suitcase with wheels. I also notice that he has boarding card #2, > > which means he got there early to be sure to get all that stuff IN the > > plane. I had #58. Late as usual. > > > > So he makes it on the plane with so problem, fits all that stuff into the > > overhead compartments, and sits in the middle of the plain in the aisle. > I, > > being a social dude, take the window seat by him and strike up a > > conversation about horns, cases, and airplanes and how to make them all > > coexist. > > > > He knows what he's talking about. He travels a lot. Has a couple gold > > albums, a few platinum ones, and is on the road with Prince after this > week > > off. None other than NAJEE himself. Turns out to be a really beautiful > guy. > > Had a nice two-hour rap about everything from kids, music, his career, my > > career, Coltrane, Slide Hampton, Prince, and also "how he feels about the > > criticism that smooth-jazz artists get from the mainstream-jazz audience". > I > > waited a while to slip that one in! > > > > When the flight attendant gave us the little bag of pretzels, Najee didn't > > want his and gave them to me. I sarcastically held them to my chest and > said > > "wow!, I have Najee's pretzels!!!" He busted out laughing. He's OK by me. > > Just don't make me listen to the albums of jazz-smoothness. (But lets face > > it...he CAN play, since Prince has him in his band.) > > > > So the moral of the story is.... > > > > 1. You CAN get a big RB case onto a plane if you get to the airport EARLY. > > 2. Najee is a pretty cool guy, despite the smooth-jazz thing. > > 3. Drop the few extra bucks and rent the convertible if you have the > chance. > > 4. Buzzing a bass trombone mouthpiece in the car while driving can make > you > > dizzy, so be careful-especially in a car that isn't yours. > > > > Peace, > > > > Ryan Miller > > Chicagoland, IL > > > > PS flaming trombone pictures coming soon to all who asked for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 02:02:03 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Problems with golf case and gig bag Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, >From looking at the SKB (sports) webpage [www.skbsports.com], I saw that they have several sizes (all inner dimensions): 48"X11"X11", 48"X9"X9", 49.5"x19"x13"(a double golf case that they actually recommend for musical instruments), and a differently shaped staff bag (48"X15"X11"). To anyone who has one of these, which size do you have, and are larger sizes generally more protective? Does anyone know if the shells of the larger cases are thicker or better built? Are there any other good brands to look for? Thanks, Beth ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1933--