TROMBONE-L Digest 1926 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) G bass by Dave Molter 2) ETW Hotel Discounts by Randy Campora 3) Re: G bass by Douglas Yeo 4) Re: G bass by "Edward Solomon" 5) Re: G bass by "Adrian Drover" 6) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by "bassbone" 7) Re: G bass + A flat clar by Douglas Yeo 8) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by Walter Barrett 9) re: Yeo/Mazzeo/clarinets by "Joseph Sellmansberger" 10) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by Craig Parmerlee 11) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by Harykoz@aol.com 12) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 13) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by Douglas Yeo 14) Re: Shires Trombones by Gabriel Langfur 15) FS: Tom Crown Straight Mute by "Scott Furness" 16) Sound Reinforcement by Chris Waage 17) Re: Why? by "Rod Ellard" 18) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by Craig Parmerlee 19) Re: Why? by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 20) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by Walter Barrett 21) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by "Paul D. Kemp Jr." 22) Re: Vienna Trombone Quartet by "Thomas Smee" 23) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by Harykoz@aol.com 24) $.02 by TboneGib@aol.com 25) Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands by "Paul D. Kemp Jr." 26) King 3B by "H du Plooy" 27) RE: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by "Andrew Elms" 28) Re: Shires Trombones by "Darren Jukes" 29) Re:Shires trombones by sabutin@mindspring.com 30) Re: Why? by sabutin@mindspring.com 31) Mazzeo clarinet (no 'bone content) was G bass by "Adrian Drover" 32) Re: Why? by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 33) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by "Adrian Drover" 34) Rittenhouse Trombone Quartet-Tour by Posaune9@aol.com 35) Attn: Texas and Northeast Coast Band Directors by Posaune9@aol.com 36) Announcing a New Trombone Quartet by Ewazen by Posaune9@aol.com 37) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by Gabriel Langfur 38) Re: Semiconductors by "Dick Sleeman" 39) Mingus Band (was Singing for the mike [Was:Trigger Horns etc..]) by sabutin@mindspring.com 40) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by "Ben Gurton" 41) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by Harykoz@aol.com 42) Mikes by "Joe L. Norcross" 43) Hard to Find CD: Empire Brass' first Christmas CD by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 44) Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) by "Ben Gurton" 45) Civilty by Listmonitor Trombone-L 46) A bit of grattitude by jfrye 47) Shoutin' Liza Trombone by Chad Horsley 48) Re: Shoutin' Liza Trombone by Darin Lyn Achilles 49) Monette Mouthpieces by John 50) Re: $.02 by "ksdowdy" 51) Bill Watrous by "Ben Gurton" 52) Re: $.02 by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 53) Zwillich Concerto Recording by Randy Campora ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:04:46 -0500 From: Dave Molter To: Adrian Drover , trombone-L Subject: G bass Message-ID: <3A65986E.204B5587@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian: Is it not true that the G bass (no trigger) was in widespread use in England and Europe, especially in the brass band and symphonic scenes, for many years but never caught on in the U.S.? Just wondering if the G bass was used in the swing bands "over there?" Dave Molter ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:21:46 -0500 From: Randy Campora To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: ETW Hotel Discounts Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010117082101.00955940@mail.telephonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Scott Shelsta sent this out today, info on hotel discounts for the Eastern Trombone Workshop in March in Washington, DC: For reservations at the Eastern Trombone Workshop 2001 at the ARL VA Days Inn: $58.00 + tax rate for 2 adult each additional adult will be $5.00 extra. Please ask participants to utilize this email address for reservation: mabrouk1st@netzero.net or daysinnarlington@aol.com They can also call 703-525-0300 ext. 301 or ext. 368. SGM Scott Shelsta-chairman, ETW 01 15-17 MAR 01 ~RC ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:40:43 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: G bass Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 8:04 AM -0500 1/17/01, Dave Molter wrote: Is it not true that the G bass (no trigger) was in widespread use in England and Europe, especially in the brass band and symphonic scenes, for many years but never caught on in the U.S.? See the article on the G bass (known as "The English Rose") in the website of the British Trombone Society at: http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/rose.htm -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:08:50 -0500 From: "Edward Solomon" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: G bass Message-ID: <001e01c0808f$04dd1410$5b261d09@mkm.can.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dave Molter" > Is it not true that the G bass (no trigger) was in widespread use in > England and Europe, especially in the brass band and symphonic scenes, > for many years but never caught on in the U.S.? Just wondering if the G > bass was used in the swing bands "over there?" The bass trombone in G was used in military and brass bands until well into the 1950s and 1960s. The brass bands did not move to using low pitch until the mid-1960s, so until then, they were prevented from using foreign imports. The majority of instruments were British makes by then, including, of course, the bass trombones in G. For orchestral purposes, the bass trombone in G had been fitted (quite early on - a French example exists from the mid-19th century) with a D attachment, facilitating the production of low C and B, which were otherwise missing from its compass. This instrument was used in many orchestras in the UK and the British Empire until the 1950s. There are photographs of such orchestral sections in the image galleries on The Trombonist Online (http://www.trombone-society.org.uk). The bass trombone in G was, however, not in widespread use on the Continent. The rest of Europe largely favoured the Bb/F trombone during the same era as the G bass trombone saw use in the British Empire. (The F and Eb bass trombones had all but died out.) In the swing bands, though, the trombonists used American medium bore instruments, which gradually filtered into orchestral use, increasing the bore size above the then standard British narrow bore instruments. This later led to the demise of the bass trombone in G after World War II, because the large American tenors swamped the British G bass trombone, even in its large bore orchestral variant, and it was eventually replaced by the Bb/F bass trombone, which was able to be imported from the USA later. There was traditionally no bass trombone in the swing bands, though, and one can see why, as the G trombone does not really lend itself well to such a role. For an interesting perspective on the changes occurring at this time, The Trombonist Online has an interesting set of interviews with Frank Mathison, Lawrence Martin and Arthur Wilson. Check them out at http://www.trombone-society.org.uk. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon (Bass Trombone) British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:15:23 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: G bass Message-ID: <004701c08090$2cbb6b20$fa0dfd3e@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 1:40 PM Subject: Re: G bass > See the article on the G bass (known as "The English Rose") in the > website of the British Trombone Society at: > > http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/rose.htm Doug, While on the subject of instruments that have lost their popularity, I was reading in Walter Piston "Orchestration" that a bass clarinet with an extension down to written Bb (sounding Ab) was constructed by Rosario Mazzeo of the Boston Symphony Orchestra (no date). Being our man in the BSO, I wondered if you have any record of it, or know if it is still in existence, or what was it used for. I can't think what use it would have been, considering the extension takes it to within only one semitone of the lowest note on the contra-alto clarinet. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:31:09 -0600 From: "bassbone" To: Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: <001501c08092$260339a0$1630aec7@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bart Varsalona began playing bass trombone in the Kenton band in August of 1943. Shortly after, George Roberts began playing bass in the Gene Krupa band. At the time, both sections consisted of three players, but Kenton quickly expanded to four in May of 1944. A permanent fifth player was added in September 1946. Kenton almost switched the entire trombone section to valve trombones in 1948. He said, "The slide trombone is a jazz has-been. Ordinary trombones are fine for some speeds, but when you want to play sixteenths at any kind of tempo, they are just too sloppy in a section. With valve horns we could get almost as much speed of execution as with trumpets. With valve trombones we'll have a brass coloring and cleanliness that no big band has had up to now." Thank goodness that didn't pan out. Finally, in the late 50s, Kenton replaced the fourth chair tenor player with the second bass trombonist. Much of this information can be found in Paul Bauer's three part article in the ITA Journal. The issues are July '82, October '82, and October '83. Josh http://www.bassbone.com > >>>>>>>> > Well when you look at photos of the big bands of the 40's, there's usually 4 > bones and no f-attachments. There was a segment on "Sunday Morning" this > morning about "Girl bands of the WW2 era." No triggers. In fact even in > Nelson Riddle's orchestra in the 50's recording with Sinatra, you only saw > one trigger horn and if I'm not mistaken that was a bass. > >>>>>>>> > > > Yes it was; a single valve bass, probably played by George Roberts. > > > >>>>>>> > Why is that? And if that's so then why is it so important to have an > F-attachment today? Especially in big band. > >>>>>>> > > > It is true that big bands of the Miller/Dorsey era used 4 straight tenors. > Much of the trombone section writing was in close harmony with high lead > reaching maybe C or Db. The 4th player would occasionally be written down > to his lowest F or E, and less often would be required to play a pedal Bb. > > I'm not sure which was the first big band to have the 4th part written for > bass, maybe Kenton or Riddle. They were both inventive leaders/writers. In > fact, Kenton employed 2 basses in a 5-tet section. > > It has always been the case as far back as I remember, for a big band 'bone > 4-tet to consist of 3 straight tenors (usually 3B size, tho' 2Bs were > favoured for studio work) and 1 bass. Nowadays, more musicians are coming > out of college, having been classically trained on heavy symphonic > machinery, so Bb/F horns are becoming more and more prominent in the big > band line up. > > So why is it important to have an F-attachment today? I would say that a > medium bore Bb/F would be useful to the 3rd player to save him/her > dislocating his/her shoulder getting from Bb to B natural in a hurry. But > then, it is usual in the big band for players to swap parts around so that > any of the 3 tenor players might be taking the lead part. In this case it > would not make much sense to have the Bb/F on top, with 2 smaller horns > underneath. > > I have just been referring to a British book on big band arranging by Reg > Owen (one of the writers for the Ted Heath band), first published in 1956. > In it, he states that the bass trombone is pitched in G, its lowest note > being C# (2nd harmonic, 7th position). Also surprising, is the fact that he > says the technique of writing for this instrument is exactly the same as for > the "ordinary" trombone. He also says that it is possible to play a pedal > Bb on the tenor (below his bass trombone range), "but this should be used > with discretion, and time must be given for the player to position his > slide". He doesn't say why or in what circumstances, nor does he hint that > the player might have more of a problem with his embouchure than with the > slide shift. > > It would seem to me that the author had no knowlege of the trombone other > than its range, and that this book was written just prior to bass 'bones > being used in the big band. I saw the Ted Heath band in the late '50s/early > '60s, at which time the 4th player was using a Bb/F machine. This sticks in > my mind because I remember seeing the section playing a unison bass line > figure between Bb and F. The three tenor players were using vast amounts of > energy alternating between 1 and 6, while the guy on bass was moving nothing > other than his thumb. I think it was probably this incident that prompted > me to eventually take up the bass 'bone as my main instrument. > > I'm not lazy, just energy conscious. > > A. > > Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) > Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk > Business: studio@adios.co.uk > www.adios.co.uk > > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:33:54 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: G bass + A flat clar Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:15 PM +0000 1/17/01, Adrian Drover wrote: While on the subject of instruments that have lost their popularity, I was reading in Walter Piston "Orchestration" that a bass clarinet with an extension down to written Bb (sounding Ab) was constructed by Rosario Mazzeo of the Boston Symphony Orchestra (no date). Being our man in the BSO, I wondered if you have any record of it, or know if it is still in existence, or what was it used for. I can't think what use it would have been, considering the extension takes it to within only one semitone of the lowest note on the contra-alto clarinet. Mazzeo played clarinet and bass clarinet in the BSO for many years, and was also personnel manager. I know there are pieces, such as the Bartok Miraculous Mandarin, which require bass clarinet in B flat and A. I don't know about Mazzeo's A flat instrument, but I'll see if any colleagues know anything about it, and what it may have been used for. -Doug ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:45:01 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/17/01 9:31 AM, bassbone at bassbone@earthlink.net sent forth into the cosmos: > Kenton almost switched the entire trombone section to valve trombones in > 1948. He said, "The slide trombone is a jazz has-been. Ordinary trombones > are fine for some speeds, but when you want to play sixteenths at any kind > of tempo, they are just too sloppy in a section. With valve horns we could > get almost as much speed of execution as with trumpets. With valve > trombones we'll have a brass coloring and cleanliness that no big band has > had up to now." Thank goodness that didn't pan out. Vincent Bach felt the same about the orchestral trombone section, and thought that trombones should be replaced with bass trumpets. Even though I play bass trumpet, I'm glad THAT never happened either! (Even though valve trombones had a precedent in Italian opera orchestras, and Czech orchestras in Dvorak's day) Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:52:20 -0600 From: "Joseph Sellmansberger" To: "trombone list" Subject: re: Yeo/Mazzeo/clarinets Message-ID: <011401c08095$1e207560$64935d0c@vogmudet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ' not familiar with THAT bass clarinet innovation, but he ALSO did a MAJOR mechanical change to the upper joint of the standard (soprano) clarinet, which was actually adopted (purchased) by Selmer U.S.A. and offered on their (most prolifically manufactured student model) Bundy clarinets for a while during the '60's ("Mazzeo System"). It didn't really "catch on, however, as most clarinet innovations to the Boehm System have not. One still runs across one of these Bundy "Mazzeo System" clarinets occasionally. -Joe Sellmansberger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 8:33 AM Subject: Re: G bass + A flat clar > At 2:15 PM +0000 1/17/01, Adrian Drover wrote: > > >While on the subject of instruments that have lost their popularity, I was > >reading in Walter Piston "Orchestration" that a bass clarinet with an > >extension down to written Bb (sounding Ab) was constructed by Rosario Mazzeo > >of the Boston Symphony Orchestra (no date). Being our man in the BSO, I > >wondered if you have any record of it, or know if it is still in existence, > >or what was it used for. I can't think what use it would have been, > >considering the extension takes it to within only one semitone of the lowest > >note on the contra-alto clarinet. > > > Mazzeo played clarinet and bass clarinet in the BSO for many years, > and was also personnel manager. > > I know there are pieces, such as the Bartok Miraculous Mandarin, > which require bass clarinet in B flat and A. I don't know about > Mazzeo's A flat instrument, but I'll see if any colleagues know > anything about it, and what it may have been used for. > > -Doug > > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:03:12 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010117094854.01e27328@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:31 AM 1/17/2001 -0600, bassbone wrote: Kenton almost switched the entire trombone section to valve trombones in 1948. He said, "The slide trombone is a jazz has-been. Ordinary trombones are fine for some speeds, but when you want to play sixteenths at any kind of tempo, they are just too sloppy in a section. With valve horns we could get almost as much speed of execution as with trumpets. With valve trombones we'll have a brass coloring and cleanliness that no big band has had up to now." Thank goodness that didn't pan out. And isn't that the real lesson from this thread? Kenton was right. The trombone playing prior to that time was real mush. Just some long high notes and a heaping helping of slide vibrato. Thank goodness for people like Kenton, JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino (and many others) who insisted on raising the standards for our instrument. The improvements have resulted from better equipment and much more aggressive tonguing techniques. But more than anything, it is a matter of attitude. The trombone can be played competitively with trumpets and saxes if a person puts his or her mind to it. Yes, there is much more work involved compared to the button pushers, but it can and should be done. But by the same token, considering that we begin with a disadvantage, we should avail ourselves of all the technology that helps us execute challenging music cleanly. Triggers in big band. Absolutely. But use them to make a good big band sound. As a practical matter, the smaller bore triggers aren't all that satisfactory. It ought to be possible to make a good .525 horn with a fantastic trigger. Likewise, if shoving a mic down the bell allows a trombonist to compete for space with the other solo instruments, then I don't have a problem with that. Personally I don't think it is necessary. If one can't make a sound good enough to reach a mic as foot in front of one, then there are probably some fundamental problems with tonguing and breath support, but that's just my opinion. And the mic down the bell used occasionally does provide an interesting change in character if it isn't overused. It is cold here this AM. I'm counting on the flames to warm up my practice room. :) Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:36:51 EST From: Harykoz@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: <43.f66ef1f.27971613@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/01 9:03:49 AM Central Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: << If one can't make a sound good enough to reach a mic as foot in front of one, then there are probably some fundamental problems with tonguing and breath support, but that's just my opinion. >> Hi Craig, I am not sure that this statement is accurate. Would you make the same argument of a pop vocalist? I am around microphones constantly. In a live situation, when everything is individually miked, I am instructed to keep the microphone between 3 and 6 inches in front of my bell. Same in the studio. The exception in the studio is when I am in a sound stage environment. More and more, the microphones provided are of the clip onto to the bell variety. (The thing is literally directly in front of the bell.) I have encountered these microphones both in live situations and in studio settings. Do we have a sound engineer on this list who might enlighten us in regard to the nuts and bolts of sound reinforcement? Hary ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:01:41 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: Harykoz@aol.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: <8b.12330e7.27971be5@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry not an engineer but back in the Dick Clark days we had three TV stations in Indianapolis, and when we played they did not use individual mikes in the studio. We had drums, trumpet, trombone, 2 amplified electric guitars, electric piano and they used one overhead studio mike to pick us up. My wife and others indicated that the sound was ok, when they were watching TV. We had a couple of really swanky guys that lip/synced... which was standard practice and the studio fed the vocal through and blended it in. Leather jackets and drake tail hairdo's. Vanilla Ice didn't discover it. Most Networks used the same trick as some of the vocalists were so green that they couldn't depend on them singing without screwing up. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:18:39 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In a message dated 1/17/01 9:03:49 AM Central Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: << If one can't make a sound good enough to reach a mic as foot in front of one, then there are probably some fundamental problems with tonguing and breath support, but that's just my opinion. >> At 10:36 AM -0500 1/17/01, Harykoz@aol.com wrote: I am not sure that this statement is accurate. Would you make the same argument of a pop vocalist? I generally would, about vocalists, certainly. In classical music, miking is rarely done, apart from pickup for radio feed. Most symphony orchestras and opera houses use no electronic enhancement for vocalists. And classically trained singers have no difficulty projecting over a 100 piece orchestra going full tilt in a large concert hall. However, pop singers are a totally different genre, most of whom were TRAINED as microphone users. They sing for the mike, they don't sing for the hall, and as such, have developed a completely different kind of vocal technique, a totally different means of support and projection. After years of doing that, I think it's fair to say, from my experience working with both classical and pop singers, that there it is not easy (or perhaps it may even be impossible) for a mike trained pop singer to go without the microphone and fill up a big hall. They've just "evolved" into a different way of singing. Whether or not this is a "fundamental problem" as Craig said, I don't if I'd quite put it that way (although I suspect it probably is; at least it is a backwards way of learning in my mind), but it is certainly a fundamental OBSERVATION. This is why many of the "created phenoms" you see in classical music (name Bocelli and Charlotte Church, also Sarah Brightman) NEVER sing without sound reinforcement. They sing for the microphone - always did, always will - and can't make the transition to large hall without reinforcement. I think what Craig is driving at (and I don't want to put words in your mouth, Craig) is that having learned to sing properly is antithetical to the way you have to sing if you are singing for a microphone all the time. Your dynamic range with a mike is greatly limited, for starters, as you never sing over mp to mf because the sound man is taking care of the balance. You are limited - you are not in control, someone else is. You sing "close" rather than "to the back of the room" and you learn to move the mike to compensate for the tessitura - if you're singing up high, instead of backing off with the volume to keep a constant intensity, you just move the microphone further away. That in itself is an art (I always felt that Mel Torme used a mike as well or better than any pop/jazz vocalist I ever saw), but it is not "proper" singing. I don't want to get into a discussion of elitism as to what "kind" of singing is proper or not (and this is NOT about classical being "better" than jazz, so please don't go there), but I'm making the point that being trained to use the voice for what it is - natural, unadulterated, solo - is important if a singer is going to be able to get the most out of it and have the most options available. Using a mike short circuits a lot of that process. A nice result can be gotten, for sure, but it necessarily results in singers who are limited to using a mike. That's not bad, it just is. As to whether or not sound reinforcement is necessary for trombonists, I find it interesting that when I solo with the Boston Pops or Boston Symphony, I don't need a microphone to be heard in the back row despite (in the case of the Brubeck Bass Trombone Concerto) a hard driving rhythm section backing me up. I also found it interesting that when I heard the Mingus Band in Greenwich Village a few years ago in a small club that seated no more than 300 people and the room had a 10 foot ceiling, that the band felt the need to reinforce its sound electronically to the point where double ear plugs didn't even begin to lessen the pain (the band was quite good, and Art Baron, Dave Taylor, Lou Soloff, and the rest of the band played great, but the excessive sound level greatly diminished the possibility of truly enjoying it). I don't have answers, just observations. When replying, remember: "Kindness is your tool, as a general rule..." -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Shires Trombones Message-ID: <20010117162230.46184.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bart, > My first one is this. Of those of you who have been > to the plant. Have you > been able to walk out with a horn or receive one > within a few weeks or is > the wait longer. > It's unlikely that you will be able to walk out with an instrument. There is always a waiting list, particularly for large-bore tenors (I don't know how long it is now, but the shortest I've heard is about 4 months). These instruments are truly hand-crafted, and the process takes time. > Also what are some of your comments or thoughts > about these horns period. I'm biased. I like Steve and the people who work for him, and I love the horns. Thay all take tremendous pride in what they do. It's not an easy business to be in, and they don't have the resources to pay clinicians to endorse the instruments. So the players who play them, including Norman Bolter of the BSO, many of the fine freelancers in the Boston area, etc. play the instruments because they found them to be the best out there for them. > I am planning on visiting the factory this weekend > on my way to visit some > friends in Manchester NH. If you haven't already done so, call Steve (ask for him) and have a conversation about what you're currently playing and what you like and don't like about it. That will give him an idea of what to try to have ready for you to play, even if it's not entirely finished (buffed, lacquered etc.). His output demand being what it is, he's simply not able to keep a complete set of his offerings in the shop. It'd be nice if he could, but... If you're serious about buying an instrument, you should plan on making a few trips there, if at all possible. Even stopping by once on the way and once on the way back from your NH trip will help you. My advice on the process of selection is to start with something very similar to what you currently play (slide & valve styles, alloys of the various parts), and make changes piece by piece from there. Be patient and methodical, experiment with one parameter at a time, and you will soon find a combination of things that works great for you. Enjoy! Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:29:49 From: "Scott Furness" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: FS: Tom Crown Straight Mute Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Folks, I'm selling an all-aluminum tenor trombone straight mute. It has been recently professionally recorked for a tight fit. It has one small dent, and several other small scratches. These cost $34 new from the Brasswind. Make me a reasonable offer. Scott _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:24:58 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Sound Reinforcement Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'm not a sound engineer, but I have run sound for many events by default. The closer the microphone is to the sound source, the lower the possibility of off-axis sound being picked up. Most mics used for sound reinforcement are cardiod or some variation, meaning they pick up sound in a cone shaped area directly in front of the mic. Off-axis rejection is very important, because the active field of the microphone can possibly pick up another sound. Transients, such as cymbal crashes, snare drum kicks, or the vocalist dropping the mic make it even more fun. Close-miking makes life easier for the sound man, but as a rule, does not give the best tonal representation of an instrument. Most woodwinds have ambient sound characteristics. Put the mic somewhere near the instrument, and the sound's about the same. However, brass instruments have different focal points for their sound. The best results with trombones (from my experience - your mileage may vary) is with a mic two to five feet from the bell. Not terribly practical in a live sound environment, though. It would pick up everything else within the pickup pattern of the microphone - a sound man's nightmare. Close-miking is a necessity, but doesn't usually give the best representation of an instrument's sound. The clip-on mics are great from a practicality standpoint - no hitting the mic stand with the slide, you can add a wireless pack for mobility, and it gives the sound man an unchanging point of reference for the sound source. But the sound source may not SOUND it's best. In a perfect world . . . Chris In a message dated 1/17/01 9:03:49 AM Central Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: << If one can't make a sound good enough to reach a mic as foot in front of one, then there are probably some fundamental problems with tonguing and breath support, but that's just my opinion. >> Hi Craig, I am not sure that this statement is accurate. Would you make the same argument of a pop vocalist? I am around microphones constantly. In a live situation, when everything is individually miked, I am instructed to keep the microphone between 3 and 6 inches in front of my bell. Same in the studio. The exception in the studio is when I am in a sound stage environment. More and more, the microphones provided are of the clip onto to the bell variety. (The thing is literally directly in front of the bell.) I have encountered these microphones both in live situations and in studio settings. Do we have a sound engineer on this list who might enlighten us in regard to the nuts and bolts of sound reinforcement? Hary -- _________________________________________ Chris Waage chris@trombone.org Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:47:18 -0800 From: "Rod Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Why? Message-ID: <001301c080a5$2811fac0$527bfea9@Ellard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beldon et al, These little pillow fights always remind me of the saying that I attritute to TS Eliott (although I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about that. Maybe someone can correct me): The reason academic disputes are so vicious is because the stakes are so small. Rod Ellard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:52:59 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010117114441.01f9ce98@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hary, I don't quibble about the difference between 6 inches and a foot, or even the convenience of a clip on mic. I think what we are talking about is whether or not a player is able to articulate cleanly at a normal volume. If a player can only get notes out quickly enough by resorting to playing them at levels only a very sensitive mic down the bell can detect, then that is a flaw in the player's game, IMHO. Any great player should be able to keep up at normal volume with the mic playing only a passive observer's role. In the past year, I have seen Sam, Steve Turre, and Ron Wilkins do this with ease and I'm sure there are many others who are equally accomplished in playing without an extreme dependence on the mic. I've seen others who can't project 2 feet on their own. I don't waste my time with them. They ought to take up electric accordion if they can't get any more sound out of their horn than that. Cheers, CP At 10:36 AM 1/17/2001 -0500, Harykoz@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/17/01 9:03:49 AM Central Standard Time, craig@acticalc.com writes: << If one can't make a sound good enough to reach a mic as foot in front of one, then there are probably some fundamental problems with tonguing and breath support, but that's just my opinion. >> Hi Craig, I am not sure that this statement is accurate. Would you make the same argument of a pop vocalist? I am around microphones constantly. In a live situation, when everything is individually miked, I am instructed to keep the microphone between 3 and 6 inches in front of my bell. Same in the studio. The exception in the studio is when I am in a sound stage environment. More and more, the microphones provided are of the clip onto to the bell variety. (The thing is literally directly in front of the bell.) I have encountered these microphones both in live situations and in studio settings. Do we have a sound engineer on this list who might enlighten us in regard to the nuts and bolts of sound reinforcement? Hary ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:16:00 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: ellard@sprint.ca, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Why? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A ot of Religious ones are too... like how many angels are on the head of a pin. Doggoned tho if I do not need one now and then on my trombone slide. << Subj: Re: Why? Date: 1/17/01 11:45:28 AM US Eastern Standard Time From: ellard@sprint.ca (Rod Ellard) To: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu (Trombones and related issues forum.) Beldon et al, These little pillow fights always remind me of the saying that I attritute to TS Eliott (although I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about that. Maybe someone can correct me): The reason academic disputes are so vicious is because the stakes are so small. Rod Ellard ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v77.31) with ESMTP; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:45:28 -0500 Received: from berlinr.sprint.ca (berlinr.pccon.net [209.5.194.99]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:45:23 -0500 Received: from Ellard ([209.148.227.28]) by berlinr.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.01.00 201-252-103) with SMTP id <20010117165132.RKUQ4046.berlinr.sprint.ca@Ellard>; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:51:32 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c080a5$2811fac0$527bfea9@Ellard> From: "Rod Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." References: Subject: Re: Why? Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:47:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 >> ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:21:24 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/17/01 11:52 AM, Craig Parmerlee at craig@acticalc.com sent forth into the cosmos: > I've seen others who can't project 2 feet on their own. I don't waste my > time with them. They ought to take up electric accordion if they can't get > any more sound out of their horn than that. At the very least, maybe they should get the rhythm section to play quieter. This past summer, I went to a local jam session. There was a PA, but nobody running it, just a set-and-forget situation. (I did use the mike, but stayed about a foot back...) During my first chorus, the drummer was banging away like Elvin Jones on a combination of LSD and steroids, and the rest of the rhythm section were doing their best to keep up with him. (All young college-age converted rockers, BTW) I was willing to go along for the first chorus, but enough was enough. The second chorus started with a LOUD accent from me, then an immediate drop to a level even a violist would approve of. (Picture the middle section of "Shiny Stockings" by the Basie Band...) Wonder of wonders, the rhythm section got the idea, came down to my level, and started ACCOMPANYING me, instead of the loosely musical wack-off session that it was before. The audience sat up straighter, heads turned towards the stage, and they started to really listen. I had a student there, and he asked me later "Wow! How'd you get them to do that? That was so cool!" Sometimes the best way to get someone's attention is to whisper! Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:26:23 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: <002101c080aa$a0582220$0ef61c3f@pauljr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear listers, BTW, I find very interesting (concerning Doug's post about the classical vs. pop singers) that everything else being equal, it seems that the classical singer's voice tends to last longer in years than the pop singer's voice. I'm sure that this has something to do with proper vocalization. We had a singer here in town who was married to a pianist friend of mine (ugly divorce--enough said, but I'm still friends with the pianist) who was doing real harm to her voice, so she was smart enough to take voice lessons from the opera coach at the local university here. He literally saved her career by teaching her the correct way to breathe and produce the sound. The coach was smart enough not to try to change her musical style of singing--he just dealt with mechanics. I haven't heard her sing recently: in fact, I don't know if she's doing any performing now or not. But the fact still remains.The same is also true in brass performance--use the body properly and you can play for a long, long time, in terms of endurance and years. Look at the Chicago Symphony brass section--they probably have the brass players with the longest tenure, and Kleinhammer, Crisafulli, and Jacobs were not young men when they retired from the orchestra, and Herseth is still pumping it out--Over 50 years on the job. I'm not saying that commerical trombonists produce the sound the wrong way, but let's face it--the microphone can cover up a multitude of "sins" particularly where breathing is concerned. With both my younger & older students I hit the breathing thing pretty hard, and as you get older, you MUST constantly keep your breathing in check, as your capacity naturally decreases with age. I pulled out my Bach 16 yesterday, and while it did take less air than my Edwards, it was amazing how much air it really took to get a clear, focused sound, even using a Bach 11C mouthpiece. All of this beng said, it seems that the commercial singers who have enjoyed long careers have had to, at some point in their career, study with someone who really understands how to produce the sound with the voice. They can modify that to cater to the STYLE of music that they prefer to perfrom, but if they're planning to last any time at all in the business, then the mechanics have got to be right. Got to get back to practicing in the lower register----thus making it easier to focus, Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) > > >In a message dated 1/17/01 9:03:49 AM Central Standard Time, > >craig@acticalc.com writes: > > > ><< If one can't make a sound good enough to reach a mic as foot in front of > >one, then there are probably some fundamental problems with tonguing and > >breath support, but that's just my opinion. >> > > At 10:36 AM -0500 1/17/01, Harykoz@aol.com wrote: > > > > >I am not sure that this statement is accurate. Would you make the same > >argument of a pop vocalist? > > > I generally would, about vocalists, certainly. In classical music, > miking is rarely done, apart from pickup for radio feed. Most > symphony orchestras and opera houses use no electronic enhancement > for vocalists. And classically trained singers have no difficulty > projecting over a 100 piece orchestra going full tilt in a large > concert hall. However, pop singers are a totally different genre, > most of whom were TRAINED as microphone users. They sing for the > mike, they don't sing for the hall, and as such, have developed a > completely different kind of vocal technique, a totally different > means of support and projection. After years of doing that, I think > it's fair to say, from my experience working with both classical and > pop singers, that there it is not easy (or perhaps it may even be > impossible) for a mike trained pop singer to go without the > microphone and fill up a big hall. They've just "evolved" into a > different way of singing. > > Whether or not this is a "fundamental problem" as Craig said, I don't > if I'd quite put it that way (although I suspect it probably is; at > least it is a backwards way of learning in my mind), but it is > certainly a fundamental OBSERVATION. This is why many of the > "created phenoms" you see in classical music (name Bocelli and > Charlotte Church, also Sarah Brightman) NEVER sing without sound > reinforcement. They sing for the microphone - always did, always > will - and can't make the transition to large hall without > reinforcement. > > I think what Craig is driving at (and I don't want to put words in > your mouth, Craig) is that having learned to sing properly is > antithetical to the way you have to sing if you are singing for a > microphone all the time. Your dynamic range with a mike is greatly > limited, for starters, as you never sing over mp to mf because the > sound man is taking care of the balance. You are limited - you are > not in control, someone else is. You sing "close" rather than "to > the back of the room" and you learn to move the mike to compensate > for the tessitura - if you're singing up high, instead of backing off > with the volume to keep a constant intensity, you just move the > microphone further away. That in itself is an art (I always felt that > Mel Torme used a mike as well or better than any pop/jazz vocalist I > ever saw), but it is not "proper" singing. I don't want to get into > a discussion of elitism as to what "kind" of singing is proper or not > (and this is NOT about classical being "better" than jazz, so please > don't go there), but I'm making the point that being trained to use > the voice for what it is - natural, unadulterated, solo - is > important if a singer is going to be able to get the most out of it > and have the most options available. Using a mike short circuits a > lot of that process. A nice result can be gotten, for sure, but it > necessarily results in singers who are limited to using a mike. > That's not bad, it just is. > > As to whether or not sound reinforcement is necessary for > trombonists, I find it interesting that when I solo with the Boston > Pops or Boston Symphony, I don't need a microphone to be heard in the > back row despite (in the case of the Brubeck Bass Trombone Concerto) > a hard driving rhythm section backing me up. I also found it > interesting that when I heard the Mingus Band in Greenwich Village a > few years ago in a small club that seated no more than 300 people and > the room had a 10 foot ceiling, that the band felt the need to > reinforce its sound electronically to the point where double ear > plugs didn't even begin to lessen the pain (the band was quite good, > and Art Baron, Dave Taylor, Lou Soloff, and the rest of the band > played great, but the excessive sound level greatly diminished the > possibility of truly enjoying it). > > I don't have answers, just observations. > > When replying, remember: "Kindness is your tool, as a general rule..." > > -Doug Yeo > > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:26:31 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: Subject: Re: Vienna Trombone Quartet Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_257E77C7.761775AD" Now that I have sent in my order for one of them (I have the other and second Jim's recommendation), I can advise that they are available at www.tapmusic.com. Tom >>> James Scott 01/17/01 01:34am >>> Kenneth- I've been meaning to recommend the Vienna Trombone Quartet recordings to the list anyway, so here's the info: "What a Wonderful Trombone World" - Camerata #30CM-445 "Russian Melodies" - Camerata #28CM-573 I found my copies at Tower Records in NYC - the first CD is available at their web site, but not the second (as of a week or two ago - tried to get a copy for my Dad). Both CD's feature Virtuoso playing - range and technique like crazy - plus great tuning, blend, sound and wonderful musicality. I highly recommend these CD's, although they may be a bit difficult to find. They were both recorded in Japan (most of the liner notes are in Japanese) - don't know if that info may help in the search for who might be carrying copies. Good luck finding them, and enjoy! Jim Scott On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Kenneth Pearce wrote: > Dear Listmembers, > > I have heard a lot about a new recording by the Vienna Trombone Quartet. Does anyone know what label it is on so I can order it? > > Much thanks, > > Kenneth Pearce > Vancouver, BC > kbpearce@sprint.ca > Attachment converted: Bach:TEXT.htm (TEXT/MSIE) (0004BEF1) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:31:25 EST From: Harykoz@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: <72.6fed027.279730ed@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/01 11:22:29 AM Central Standard Time, trbnplyr@earthlink.net writes: << I'm not saying that commerical trombonists produce the sound the wrong way, but let's face it--the microphone can cover up a multitude of "sins" particularly where breathing is concerned. >> How can this be? The microphone only picks up what you play into it. If you play badly into it, that is what the microphone is going to capture. If you are breathing improperly, I cannot see how the microphone would be helpful. If anything, the microphone will expose a multitude of sins. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something. Hary ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:54:55 EST From: TboneGib@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: $.02 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_df.f1a3d7a.2797366f_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline Lordie, I must be bored. Under normal circumstances, I would never chime in on such threads.........BUT: Does anyone else appreciate the irony as we laud the innovations brought about by JJ and Rosolino, et. al;yet Êwe crucify today's innovators who dare place a microphone closer to their bell than we deem permissible? This tube is a means of self-expression and if somebody doesn't employ the tool as you might, so be it. I rue the day that we all put the mic HERE and sound like THIS. God bless those with the nerve and guts to be DIFFERENT. And I don't really care how they're blowing into the tube, as long as what they're saying is piquing my interest. Go practice! Put the mic where ever the heck you want. Tom Gibson Brass Dept. Coordinator Georgia State University TboneGib@aol.com (w) 404-651-1740 trombonelessons.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:28:37 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands Message-ID: <000201c080af$f985c6e0$35511a3f@pauljr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In other words, Time should be FELT and not HEARD. Well put Walter. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Barrett" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Trigger Horns & Big Bands > on 1/17/01 11:52 AM, Craig Parmerlee at craig@acticalc.com sent forth into > the cosmos: > > > I've seen others who can't project 2 feet on their own. I don't waste my > > time with them. They ought to take up electric accordion if they can't get > > any more sound out of their horn than that. > > At the very least, maybe they should get the rhythm section to play quieter. > This past summer, I went to a local jam session. There was a PA, but nobody > running it, just a set-and-forget situation. (I did use the mike, but stayed > about a foot back...) During my first chorus, the drummer was banging away > like Elvin Jones on a combination of LSD and steroids, and the rest of the > rhythm section were doing their best to keep up with him. (All young > college-age converted rockers, BTW) I was willing to go along for the first > chorus, but enough was enough. The second chorus started with a LOUD accent > from me, then an immediate drop to a level even a violist would approve of. > (Picture the middle section of "Shiny Stockings" by the Basie Band...) > Wonder of wonders, the rhythm section got the idea, came down to my level, > and started ACCOMPANYING me, instead of the loosely musical wack-off session > that it was before. The audience sat up straighter, heads turned towards the > stage, and they started to really listen. I had a student there, and he > asked me later "Wow! How'd you get them to do that? That was so cool!" > > Sometimes the best way to get someone's attention is to whisper! > > Walter Barrett > > Yamaha Artist/Clinician > Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones > Euphonium > Bass Trumpet > Tuba > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:12:33 +0200 From: "H du Plooy" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: King 3B Message-ID: <20010117181233.10118.qmail@proliant2.mailgate.net> Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is the Cleveland King 3Bs a rare gem, or am I confusing it with something else? Hans ----------------------------------------------------------- Brought to you by Ananzi Mail http://mail.ananzi.co.za ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:39:49 -0500 From: "Andrew Elms" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not a sound engineer, but I play one on T.V. I do a lot of work being an assistant sound engineer for the Brass Band of Battle Creek. Actually, the mic can either expand problems, or hide quite a bit. Depends on how good your engineer is and how good the digital editing software. Reverb, also know as grease, covers up a lot of things. With careful work, you can even cover up breaths. And not even just the little breaths either. The complete six liter wind sucking of a professional tuba player can be covered given enough time and energy. As far as sound reinforcement... I prefer, generally, mics placed far enough away to get the full sound of the horn. Although, those cute little GLM's that you can clip to the bell are the best way I've ever heard to mic a tuba. Also they're great if you want to have a lot of control over a solo player. The sound can even be really good off of these things. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Harykoz@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 12:31 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) In a message dated 1/17/01 11:22:29 AM Central Standard Time, trbnplyr@earthlink.net writes: << I'm not saying that commerical trombonists produce the sound the wrong way, but let's face it--the microphone can cover up a multitude of "sins" particularly where breathing is concerned. >> How can this be? The microphone only picks up what you play into it. If you play badly into it, that is what the microphone is going to capture. If you are breathing improperly, I cannot see how the microphone would be helpful. If anything, the microphone will expose a multitude of sins. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something. Hary ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:50:57 -0500 From: "Darren Jukes" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Shires Trombones Message-ID: <006901c080b6$6df2b640$068cd1d8@b1gsur79> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bart, You're questions are clear. Without starting a discussion of better/best (we all agree its a waste of time). I'll give you a bit of my experience having played a Shires for a couple of years as well as visiting the factory this fall. It's a good idea to call ahead when visiting the factory. Steve is a very approchable guy and was more than happy to walk me around the workshop to see the action. It's interesting to see a bell in its early stages. You wonder how this chunk of metal could ever become a trombone. A real craft! Because of the current demand Steve doesn't actually have much stock to try out. When I was there, there was enough to get a good idea of the extremes between a lightweight yellow and say a heavy weight red bell, for example. Its still worth the trip though to see whats new and different. It's very unlikely to walk out of the factory with a horn. A new leadpipe perhaps:-) As far as the horns are concerned they are very well crafted. The attention to detail is incredible. For me I find my horn to be a little more flexible in different contexts. Not having a steady gig this helps when switching from small ensemble to large orchestra etc.. But I imagine this has alot to do with my approach/concept rather than the horn. A good sound is a good sound regardless of context. Many a good trombone has these qualities. There really are a lot of good trombones out there today. I wish I could own 1 of each! If I could get one plug in - the 2RVE bell is a real treat to test/play. If you decide to purchase one, you're getting a fine, hand crafted instrument (expensive too!) Take your time, don't buy on impulse. Try a bell for a couple weeks and re-evaluate. No matter how long I take to buy a new horn I wish I had taken more time and played it for more people before I made a final decision. Hope this helps. But in the final analysis I really don't care what trombone you play. (to be taken with much humour:-) Cheers Darren Jukes -----Original Message----- From: Bart Roberts To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 12:43 AM Subject: Shires Trombones >Dear List Members, > >I have a few questions about Shires Trombones. > >My first one is this. Of those of you who have been to the plant. Have you >been able to walk out with a horn or receive one within a few weeks or is >the wait longer. > >Also what are some of your comments or thoughts about these horns period. > >I am planning on visiting the factory this weekend on my way to visit some >friends in Manchester NH. > >Thanks in advance. > > > >Bart M. Roberts >Trombonist >Cardinal Brass Quintet >Assistant Director of Bands >Ball State University > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:53:13 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re:Shires trombones Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:34 AM 1/17/01 -0500, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > >I have a few questions about Shires Trombones. > >My first one is this. Of those of you who have been to the plant. Have you >been able to walk out with a horn or receive one within a few weeks or is >the wait longer. > ================== Depends on what components you choose and how his orders are going. Chances are, though, you'll have to wait a little. ================== >Also what are some of your comments or thoughts about these horns period. ======================= I spent several months...and made several trips to the factory DURING those months...trying different components for my .525 horn. The horn that I have assembled is VERY good. I compared it w/several top of the line .525s at the IAJE last weekend, and it was by far the best playing horn (for me) of any of them. In general, Steve's horns seem have their own playing characteristics no matter what components are chosen...a sound that remains civilized and elegant no matter HOW hard it's pushed and VERY quick response characteristics being two of the most attractive ones to me. I sometimes wish they were a little more massive sounding, like Conns from the '30s, but I think if they WERE they would respond slower (also like Conns from the '30s). Sometimes they remind me of very good Mt. Vernon Bachs, only more projecting, a VERY little brighter and somewhat opener blowing. Compared to contemporary Bachs, Yamahas, Kings, and all but a very few Conns I've played, they are simply better in every respect. Compared to Edwards horns, Shires horn seem more easily colored...that is, Edwards horns to me seem to be very well slotted but rather monochromatic as a result...one sound comes out no matter WHAT goes in. They are very good, but somehow a little uninteresting, a little too safe. (Again, that's MY opinion.) There are innumerable European horns becoming available in the US these days. I've had a little time on a few of them, but can't really say much about them other than that some very good players sound great on them. ============================ >I am planning on visiting the factory this weekend on my way to visit some >friends in Manchester NH. > >Thanks in advance. > >Bart M. Roberts >Trombonist >Cardinal Brass Quintet >Assistant Director of Bands >Ball State University ===================== Good luck. I hope you find a great horn. I personally cannot make final decisions about horns or components in one session or in a room I do not really know. I have to play them for a few days and hear them in my own practice area and in several other familiar working situations before I REALLY know what's what. Fortunately Steve Shires is as accommodating as he possibly can be in this regard. S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:57:23 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: ellard@sprint.ca Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Why? Message-ID: <200101171900.OAA05406@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:47 AM 1/17/01 -0800, you wrote: >Beldon et al, > >These little pillow fights always remind me of the saying that I attritute >to TS Eliott (although I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about that. Maybe someone >can correct me): > >The reason academic disputes are so vicious is because the stakes are so >small. > >Rod Ellard ========== Henry Kissinger, said this, I believe...an EXPERT on REAL viciousness, at least partially responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:06:41 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Mazzeo clarinet (no 'bone content) was G bass Message-ID: <003401c080b8$c57e4b20$a97868d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 2:33 PM Subject: Re: G bass + A flat clar > I know there are pieces, such as the Bartok Miraculous Mandarin, > which require bass clarinet in B flat and A. I don't know about > Mazzeo's A flat instrument, but I'll see if any colleagues know > anything about it, and what it may have been used for. Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding, the instrument Walter Piston describes is PITCHED in Bb. The normal downward compass of the clarinet is written E (sounding D on a Bb clarinet). Modern Bb bass clarinets however have a semitone extension to written Eb (sounding C#/Db) to enable performance of parts written for bass clarinet in A (which is no longer in general use). Many players now use instruments that have a further extension down to written C, providing a downward compass to the bassoon's lowest Bb. The Mazzeo instrument had yet another 2 semitones of extension. There must have been an abundance of little-finger (or maybe thumb) keys on his model, especially if they were duplicated for both hands, as is usual for the low Boehm clarinet notes. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:19:08 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: sabutin@mindspring.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Why? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Probably most experts on viciousness are found in the Government of Men and not playing trombone. beldon wade ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:30:08 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: <004801c080bb$ff587200$a97868d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 4:18 PM Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) > I also found it > interesting that when I heard the Mingus Band in Greenwich Village a > few years ago in a small club that seated no more than 300 people and > the room had a 10 foot ceiling, that the band felt the need to > reinforce its sound electronically to the point where double ear > plugs didn't even begin to lessen the pain (the band was quite good, > and Art Baron, Dave Taylor, Lou Soloff, and the rest of the band > played great, but the excessive sound level greatly diminished the > possibility of truly enjoying it). I have to totally agree with you there Doug. I do not understand why today's bands need to project at such a ridiculous level. It spoils my enjoyment in both playing and listening. There is absolutely no way of achieving a good sound or balance when every musician is trying to outblow each other. And it is over-amplification that is the cause of this situation. Take away the mikes and get the electronic instruments to turn down their levels, then you are able to listen to each other again. Heaven! A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:36:26 EST From: Posaune9@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Rittenhouse Trombone Quartet-Tour Message-ID: <8c.124014f.27974e3a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8c.124014f.27974e3a_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline Hello All, The Rittenhouse Trombone Quartet is going on its first ever concert tour in March 2001. ÊIf you all have time, please go to our website and take a look. Ê Be sure to sign the guestbook, too. http://hometown.aol.com/curtisbones/index.html Those of you from Texas will especially want to look, as our first tour will take place there. ÊWe will be touring again the whole month of May, and one week of that will be spent in the Baltimore, DC, Philadelphia, and New York areas. Take a look! Ryan Johnstone Curtis Institute of Music Rittenhouse Trombone Quartet ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:42:45 EST From: Posaune9@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Attn: Texas and Northeast Coast Band Directors Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a3.10947b2f.27974fb5_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline The Rittenhouse Trombone Quartet from the Curtis Institute of Music will be presenting FREE masterclasses and concerts throughout ALL of Texas in May 2001. ÊWe will also be presenting in the Northeast - DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York areas for one week in May. ÊWe are very interested in playing/presenting anywhere and everywhere that we possibly can. ÊWe are able to do this through our corporate sponsors and grants that we have received. Ê If you are interested in having us, please email me privately. ÊYou can also call if you have questions. Ê215-732-9311 Thanks. Ryan Johnstone Curtis Institute of Music Rittenhouse Trombone Quartet ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:47:22 EST From: Posaune9@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Announcing a New Trombone Quartet by Ewazen Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c2.5dad392.279750ca_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline I forgot to mention that Mr. Ewazen is writing us a quartet that is to be premeired at Curtis in April 2001. ÊGo to: Ê http://hometown.aol.com/curtisbones/ewazenrtq.html for more information. Sorry for all of the posts. Ryan Johnstone ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:17:21 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: <20010117201721.87669.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Harykoz@aol.com wrote: > How can this be? The microphone only picks up what > you play into it. If you > play badly into it, that is what the microphone is > going to capture. If you > are breathing improperly, I cannot see how the > microphone would be helpful. > If anything, the microphone will expose a multitude > of sins. Perhaps I am > misunderstanding something. Yes, the technique of playing with a very small sound that almost always needs amplification, in order to increase facility for bebop-style playing is just another way of playing the instrument. All of the techniques we choose to prioritize have adverse effects on other aspects of our playing. I choose to play bass trombone with an essentially orchestral sound, and I try to temper that so that I have enough facility to please myself (and hopefully others) when I play a Bach cello suite or sit in a big band. I know that, as long as I emphasize that side of my playing, I'll never be able to play or sound like...oh, I don't know...Carl Fontana or Jim Pugh - both tremendous players who generally play with a very light, agile sound. They both do what they choose to do extremely well. Other players have taken the same approach and don't usually have as much to say musically. I'll always cheer for diversity... Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:13:21 +0100 From: "Dick Sleeman" To: "Trombones and related issues forum" Subject: Re: Semiconductors Message-ID: <002401c080ca$8f63b7c0$9970adc1@dick> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Then, of course, you also have your SUPERCONDUCTORS. But they have to be cooled down to a VERY low temperature..... Groeten uit Holland, Dick Sleeman, Lelystad. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:29:59 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: slide.rule@adios.co.uk Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Mingus Band (was Singing for the mike [Was:Trigger Horns etc..]) Message-ID: <200101172133.QAA15801@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:30 PM 1/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Douglas Yeo" >To: "Trombones and related issues forum." >Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 4:18 PM >Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) > > >> I also found it >> interesting that when I heard the Mingus Band in Greenwich Village a >> few years ago in a small club that seated no more than 300 people and >> the room had a 10 foot ceiling, that the band felt the need to >> reinforce its sound electronically to the point where double ear >> plugs didn't even begin to lessen the pain (the band was quite good, >> and Art Baron, Dave Taylor, Lou Soloff, and the rest of the band >> played great, but the excessive sound level greatly diminished the >> possibility of truly enjoying it). > >I have to totally agree with you there Doug. I do not understand why >today's bands need to project at such a ridiculous level. It spoils my >enjoyment in both playing and listening. There is absolutely no way of >achieving a good sound or balance when every musician is trying to outblow >each other. And it is over-amplification that is the cause of this >situation. Take away the mikes and get the electronic instruments to turn >down their levels, then you are able to listen to each other again. Heaven! > >A. > ============ I was the original music director of that band, and quit because Sue Mingus didn't have the sense to stop the various ego driven offenses that were ruining the music, and wouldn't let me do so either. If you want to hear how the band sounded before it became the world's largest amplified quartet, check out the first record, one of which I am REALLY proud...Mingus Big Band '93, Nostalgia in Times Square. Almost all the players in that band left because of Sue, although some have returned because the band IS working and making some money. Check out particularly "Don't Be Afraid, The Clown's Afraid Too", "Weird Nightmare" and "Self Portrait In Three Colors". Loud AND soft, in AND out. S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:56:25 +1100 From: "Ben Gurton" To: "Trombone-l" Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: <00ae01c080d8$d099b740$310a65cb@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are many examples of players, specifically jazz/commercial players who rely heavily on use of a microphone and PA to give them the sound they like. Some of these players have gorgeous sounds (with the assistance of an extremely close proximity mic.) yet their natural open sound is quite a different story. One of my favourite players who has a wonderful sound and great ballad player is Bill Watrous. Anyone who has seen him play knows that he has made a definite decision to use the microphone and PA as part of his sound production. Without it his sound and facility is not what we are all used to hearing from Bill. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this, the music he makes is fantastic. Surely though it shows that a number of players may not use a mic. to "cover up a multitude of sins" but do rely on it to produce the sound and facility they hear. In my own experience if I elect to play a gig at "p" using a close proximity mic. I have more facility, greater range, longer phrases and a heap more endurance, as I'm sure is the same experience with everyone on the list. Regardless I do not choose to play with this method, I can't stand being reliant on the sound engineer. The less they have to do with my sound the better! But there are very obvious gains from using the close mic. method, the microphone for many players is a very helpful tool.............It's all music though. Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) > In a message dated 1/17/01 11:22:29 AM Central Standard Time, > trbnplyr@earthlink.net writes: > > << I'm not saying that commerical trombonists produce the sound the wrong > way, but let's face it--the microphone can cover up a multitude of "sins" > particularly where breathing is concerned. >> > > How can this be? The microphone only picks up what you play into it. If yo u > play badly into it, that is what the microphone is going to capture. If you > are breathing improperly, I cannot see how the microphone would be helpful. > If anything, the microphone will expose a multitude of sins. Perhaps I am > misunderstanding something. > > Hary > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:17:19 EST From: Harykoz@aol.com To: bengurton@one.net.au, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: <55.fefc1bb.279781ff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/01 4:58:12 PM Central Standard Time, bengurton@one.net.au writes: << One of my favourite players who has a wonderful sound and great ballad player is Bill Watrous. Anyone who has seen him play knows that he has made a definite decision to use the microphone and PA as part of his sound production. Without it his sound and facility is not what we are all used to hearing from Bill. >> Ben, I need to phrase this appropriately or face the consequences. It is my very humble opinion that you do not have a frickin' clue in regard to what you are talking about. I have heard Bill Watrous play an acoustic trio gig and he sounded exactly like he sounds on record. I sat in front of him during a clinic. Ya know what? GREAT SOUND AND COULD DO EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS DONE ON RECORDINGS! Man, what are you saying? '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''' << In my own experience if I elect to play a gig at "p" using a close proximity mic. I have more facility, greater range, longer phrases and a heap more endurance, as I'm sure is the same experience with everyone on the list. Regardless I do not choose to play with this method, I can't stand being reliant on the sound engineer. The less they have to do with my sound the better! But there are very obvious gains from using the close mic. method, the microphone for many players is a very helpful tool.............It's all music though.>> Ben, I cannot agree with you. As a matter of fact, OK I will say it: YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! So, Chris Waage does my opinion on this matter violate my last warning? Ben >> ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:29:09 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Mikes Message-ID: <008a01c080dd$4c69be20$1d37a5d1@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to sing barbershop music. Some quartets got real modern and used 4 mikes. There sound was never as good as when they would gather around a mike or just sing to a small group of people. The reason was that the blend that makes barbershop what it is requires the people hear the total package to make the chord ring. A sound man can't do it, only the quartet can. I would bet that if one listened to a rehearsal of a miked band without all the electronics that the sound would be better than all miked up. Electronic over use is killing the fun for the listener. When my ears hurt at the volume, I can not enjoy the music. Just my humble opinion Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds, Visalia Brass Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:36:08 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'Trombone-L (List)'" Subject: Hard to Find CD: Empire Brass' first Christmas CD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Angel/EMI Empire Brass "Joy to the World, Music of Christmas" CDC 7 49097 2, released in 1988. I can usually find most anything out on the net but out-of-print CDs can be challenging. I have tried for 2 years to locate this CD but to no avail. I have asked Angel/EMI to consider reprinting, but I don't expect that to happen. 3 tracks can be found on "The Music of a Victoria Christmas", CDM 64613, released in 1992. Mandatory Trombone content: Scott Hartman as a member of the Empire Brass helped create one of the best Christmas CDs I have ever heard. This CD has some of the cleanest quintet playing I have ever heard. Can anyone suggest where to look for this CD, or how to get a copy. I already have the tape. PS: Does anyone know why the group jumped to TELARC? Thanks Rick Marple San Antonio TX ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:00:02 +1100 From: "Ben Gurton" To: "Trombone-l" Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) Message-ID: <003801c080e9$fe508900$210b65cb@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry, I make my living and a good one at that playing trombone proffesionaly. While you may not agree with my statement, telling me I have no idea what I am talking about is just not right. I happen to know a hell of lot about trombone playing, not everything, probably not a quarter of many of the players I respect on this list. I made a statement based on my experience as a full time, proffesional player. In no way was my post a negative view of Bill Watrous or his abilities, he is one of my favourite players as proven by the amount of his albums I own and love. He seemed an obvious example of someone who uses the close mic. method with great results. I respect your your opinion and the fact that you don't agree but sometimes your way with words is amazing. I think I might just stick to reading again not posting. Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Singing for the mike (Was:Trigger Horns etc...) > In a message dated 1/17/01 4:58:12 PM Central Standard Time, > bengurton@one.net.au writes: > > << One of my favourite players who has a wonderful sound and great ballad > player is Bill Watrous. Anyone who has seen him play knows that he has made a > definite decision to use the microphone and PA as part of his sound > production. Without it his sound and facility is not what we are all used to > hearing from Bill. >> > > Ben, > > I need to phrase this appropriately or face the consequences. It is my very > humble opinion that you do not have a frickin' clue in regard to what you are > talking about. I have heard Bill Watrous play an acoustic trio gig and he > sounded exactly like he sounds on record. I sat in front of him during a > clinic. Ya know what? GREAT SOUND AND COULD DO EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS DONE ON > RECORDINGS! Man, what are you saying? > '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '' > > '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '' > > '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '' > > '''''''' > << In my own experience if I elect to play a gig at "p" using a close > proximity > mic. I have more facility, greater range, longer phrases and a heap more > endurance, as I'm sure is the same experience with everyone on the list. > Regardless I do not choose to play with this method, I can't stand being > reliant on the sound engineer. The less they have to do with my sound the > better! But there are very obvious gains from using the close mic. method, > the microphone for many players is a very helpful tool.............It's all > music though.>> > > Ben, I cannot agree with you. As a matter of fact, OK I will say it: YOU DO > NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! > > So, Chris Waage does my opinion on this matter violate my last warning? > > > > Ben >> > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:01:43 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Trombone-L Subject: Civilty Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I have taken steps to restore civility to the trombone-l. If you receive harrassing e-mails from any individual over the next few days, I highly recommend that you report these e-mails to the sender's Internet Service Provider. I would recommend using a service such as SpamCop to do this - http://www.spamcop.com. Registration is required, but it is a useful free service. No further discussion of this is required, nor will it be tolerated. LM ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 21:23:41 -0500 From: jfrye To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: A bit of grattitude Message-ID: <3A694C8F@webmail.utk.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks to all of you who helped me out on my interpretation question. I have certainly got a great many more aspects to observe about the interpretation of the Larsson. I'll keep you all informed on how the auditions go. -j Joseph Frye Tenor and Alto Trombone Oak Ridge Symphony Orchestra University of Tennessee, Knoxville 572nd Air National Guard Band "Stop the world, I want to get off!" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:19:27 -0600 From: Chad Horsley To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Shoutin' Liza Trombone Message-ID: <3A6652AE.86ECE187@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for Henry Fillmore's Shoutin' Liza Trombone for trombone and piano. Overall, any help in finding this piece would be appreciated. I would even be willing to do a piano reduction from something. Thanks again, Chad Horsley ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 21:37:28 -0500 (EST) From: Darin Lyn Achilles To: Chad Horsley Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Shoutin' Liza Trombone Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Check out Henry Fillmore's "Lassus Trombone PLus 14 other Hot Trombone Rags". It's in there with piano accompaniment. Published by Carl Fischer and should be available through Hickey's for $11.95. Darin Achilles On Wed, 17 Jan 2001, Chad Horsley wrote: > I am looking for Henry Fillmore's Shoutin' Liza Trombone for trombone > and piano. Overall, any help in finding this piece would be appreciated. > I would even be willing to do a piano reduction from something. > > Thanks again, > Chad Horsley > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:44:49 -0800 From: John To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Monette Mouthpieces Message-ID: <3A66669C.92145C9F@teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wondering if any of you have experienced the bliss of a Monette Trombone Mouthpiece? If this has been covered before feel free to blast me. John ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:21:03 -0600 From: "ksdowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: $.02 Message-ID: <007001c08106$3bd6e5a0$6b190f3f@m2y9x8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006C_01C080D3.C75D2900" Amen! It is about time that someone said it. It's the music, stupid! Perhaps that is why those that spend the most time worrying if they sound "authentic" or "proper" sell the least records. When I buy a CD, I don't care how far the guy is from the mike, or if they sing "properly". So what? Does the music touch me or not! Guess that is why my Gary Numan, David Bowie, Queen and DEVO recordings get listened to more often than the multitude of dry, meaningless "trombone" recordings that I have in my collection (Urbie Green and JJ Johnson being the notable exceptions to this). KSD ----- Original Message ----- From: TboneGib@aol.com To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: $.02 Lordie, I must be bored. Under normal circumstances, I would never chime in on such threads.........BUT: Does anyone else appreciate the irony as we laud the innovations brought about by JJ and Rosolino, et. al;yet Êwe crucify today's innovators who dare place a microphone closer to their bell than we deem permissible? This tube is a means of self-expression and if somebody doesn't employ the tool as you might, so be it. I rue the day that we all put the mic HERE and sound like THIS. God bless those with the nerve and guts to be DIFFERENT. And I don't really care how they're blowing into the tube, as long as what they're saying is piquing my interest. Go practice! Put the mic where ever the heck you want. Tom Gibson Brass Dept. Coordinator Georgia State University TboneGib@aol.com (w) 404-651-1740 trombonelessons.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:34:38 +1100 From: "Ben Gurton" To: "Trombone-l" Subject: Bill Watrous Message-ID: <001a01c08108$123a3560$da0e65cb@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C08164.2B1E69A0" Upon reading my first post again, maybe it could be intepreted as negative towards Bill Watrous. In no way was this my intention. I merely wanted to state that there must be some advantages to using a close mic. technique if so many great players do,Êespecially Bill WatrousÊ(I just happened to be listening to him as I was writing the post).Ê Bill if you're out there.... i'm sorry! :) thanks all, Ben ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:55:05 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com To: ksdowdy@msn.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: $.02 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wish I had some more wet or dry cd's in my collection.. Yes 'tis all music. beldon wade my 2 s. 6 d. How about you Adrian?? ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:40:03 -0500 From: Randy Campora To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Zwillich Concerto Recording Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010118003822.0098c100@mail.telephonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I don't know if this has been mentioned on the list before, but on Tap Music's site (www.tapmusic.com) I noticed that Charles Vernon's performance of the Concerto for Bass Trombone, Strings, Timpani and Cymbals is featured on a CD of the music of Ellen Taffe Zwillich on the Koch label (#7487). Also on the disc are the composer's Symphony No. 4 and Concerto for Horn (David Jolley, soloist). I don't know who the orchestra is, it might be CSO with whom he premiered the piece and of which Zwillich was Composer in Residence, but that's a guess. -Randy Campora ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Randy Campora, Bass Trombonist Baltimore Symphony Orchestra Peabody Conservatory of Music campora@peabody.jhu.edu 410-461-1984 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_1926--