TROMBONE-L Digest 1755 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: It's official - UMI has been sold to...(drumroll) by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 2) RE: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 3) Re: It's official - UMI has been sold to...(drumroll) by "Chuck De Paolo" 4) OTJ Classifieds Update 7/24/2000 by Chris Waage 5) For Sale: Bell Flairs by JFBermann@aol.com 6) Valve design by "G. Nathan Medsker" 7) Fwd: For Sale: Bell Flairs by JFBermann@aol.com 8) Kuhnl & Hoyer trombone by H du Plooy 9) Vintage trombones by H du Plooy 10) Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI by Richard L Corliss 11) Re: Vintage trombones by Gary Greenhoe 12) Elliott cup needed by "Dean McCarty" 13) Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI by JFBermann@aol.com 14) Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI by Craig Parmerlee 15) RE: Valve design by Gabriel Langfur 16) The Sound of Work Leaving L.A. by SFTrombone@aol.com 17) Trombone-L Archives by H du Plooy 18) Fw: trombone conversion by "Jim Trembley" 19) Re: Kuhnl & Hoyer trombone by "Brian Frederiksen" 20) Re: trombone conversion by "Dean McCarty" 21) Re: Valve design by Tbcwes@aol.com 22) Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI by Candice & Eric Swanson 23) Rath R9 by cworth 24) Re: Vintage trombones by John Capon 25) Re: The Sound of Work Leaving L.A. by "Robert Holland" 26) RE: Vintage trombones by "Dyke, David" From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:06 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 07:44:58 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: It's official - UMI has been sold to...(drumroll) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Well, you have the right to disagree. However, your argument does not hold water. Name recognition, quality, and value are what sell a product. UMI's "dealers first, screw the customer" policy has not helped the local dealers in my area. My favorite dealer (the one who sold me my King 3B and my Conn 48H) is out of business. The other local UMI dealer is barely able to make payroll. The guys doing the best in my area are selling Yamaha, Bach and Blessing horns. The only Conns that most of the kids have seen are the beat up old issue horns used in the schools (and most of them have now been replaced with Olds and Blessings). So, the UMI argument does not hold water. If it were true, the UMI dealers would be the only ones in business and it would be the Yamaha and Bach dealers going under. That's just not happening in my neck of the woods. KSD > -----Original Message----- > From: JoshuaSL@aol.com [SMTP:JoshuaSL@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2000 11:35 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: RE: It's official - UMI has been sold to...(drumroll) > > > In a message dated 7/21/00 3:53:11 PM, kdowdy@oppd.com writes: > > >Amen! And maybe now they will get serious about SELLING horns and dump > >their stupid policy of boycotting the big internet firms. > > > >KSD > > I really have to disagree with this statement. The purpose of not dealing > > with the huge mail-order/internet firms is to protect the small dealers. > Put > simply, based on volume discounts in the business, your local mom and pop > music shop just can't compete price-wise with the Brasswind style > powerhouses. What it does is protect these small shops from being > completely > crushed by advertisements from the biggies. Bach and Yamaha have kind of > let > it slide by making companies like WW&BW send prices only upon request. > UMI, > however, took the hard line. They simply said that it would kill their > other > dealers to let the biggies handle their horns. UMI is protecting their > distribution network by doing this. As far as I'm concerned, it is a > valid > policy, and far from stupid. If someone wants a Conn/King/Benge etc. they > > are going to find somewhere to get one. Meanwhile, it is the little local > > stores most of us depend on for that emergency fix of rotor oil or slide > grease etc. Maybe not the most effective strategy on UMI's part, but > definitely thought out. > > Just an opinion, > > Joshua From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:12 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 07:58:34 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "'sabutin@mindspring.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sam wrote, > ======================= > > Maybe 40% of the PROFESSIONAL business...but that is probably only 10% > of the BUSINESS. > > The MONEY is in the schools. Of those companies you mentioned as > alternatives to Bach, Selmer, Conn, and King, only Yamaha is selling many > student horns. I'll bet this new company has over 80% of the school > business. > Amen to where the money is. The Omaha Public Schools just purchased a bunch of new horns to replace their aging Conns. Most were Blessing and Olds, with few Bessons in the bunch. Yamaha and Bach probably have 80 percent of the private student purchases, with the other 20 being a mix of King and Blessing. As to what the adults are playing, I can only provide the following limited observation. When I played with the Nebraska Wind Symphony, we had two small bore Reynolds, one huge old Olds with a trigger, two triggered Yamahas (one .525 bore and the other .547), one Conn 88H, two King 2Bs, and my King 3B. The Jazz workshop that I attended had two guest trombonists, one with a .547 Yamaha and the other with a King 3B. From what I have seen in my area, the UMI market share is really declining. Of the Conns and Kings mentioned above, my King 3B (circa 1975) was the newest. The newest horns were all Yamaha. KSD From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:12 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:48:42 -0400 From: "Chuck De Paolo" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Re: It's official - UMI has been sold to...(drumroll) Message-ID: <015401bff586$a47b25a0$0200a8c0@ws2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, you have the right to disagree. However, your argument does not hold > water. Name recognition, quality, and value are what sell a product. UMI's > "dealers first, screw the customer" policy has not helped the local dealers > in my area. My favorite dealer (the one who sold me my King 3B and my Conn > 48H) is out of business. The other local UMI dealer is barely able to make > payroll. The guys doing the best in my area are selling Yamaha, Bach and > Blessing horns. The only Conns that most of the kids have seen are the beat > up old issue horns used in the schools (and most of them have now been > replaced with Olds and Blessings). Clearly your dealer's insolvency had alot more to do with poor business practice that whether or not they were carrying UMI. They could have been carrying Kenmore or Toyota for that matter. Why were they not selling Selmer or Yamaha? Believe me, it takes a lot more than one line to make or break a shop. Also, I strenuously disagree with your assessment of UMI's so-called policy. The fact that UMI protects their horns from the mailorder/eCommerce scene is the prime reason small dealers like us can continue to stock these horns for our customers. We sell UMI products at a hefty catalog-like discount (not a measly 20%) AND we can display them on the wall for folks to try out. We are just a little tiny store, but this policy allows us to actually sell a pro horn, at a good price to all, and make something over invoice. What a concept. If had a dollar for every time someone on this list bemoaned the fact that they couldn't walk into a music store and try an 88H, 42B, etc, I'd be rich! And yes, I'd be paying myself too, because I have had the same complaint. This policy allows us to compete. That some stores use it to rape their customers is their own business. Those that do will find they sell few horns. In Music, ---Chuck General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/us/zips/14850.html (Weather) From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:12 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:52:44 -0500 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update 7/24/2000 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 10:51 a.m. CDT on July 24, 2000 with 21 new listings. OTJ Instrument Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/instruments.asp OTJ Accessory Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/accessories.asp OTJ Music Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/music.asp To place an ad: http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/adform.asp If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris OTJ Online Privacy Policy http://www.trombone.org/privacy.asp -- _________________________________________ Chris Waage chris@trombone.org Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:55:12 EDT From: JFBermann@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: For Sale: Bell Flairs Message-ID: <7d.80996fa.26addd00@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Sale: MINT Holton TR-180/181 10" bell flair $225. MINT Conn 110H 10" bell flair $325. Jim Bermann JFBermann@aol.com From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:51:36 -0500 From: "G. Nathan Medsker" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Valve design Message-ID: <2.2.16.20000724134613.2a471476@pop.uwec.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gary, I've been very impressed by the comments on your valve, and I like the concept from an aesthetic and engineering standpoint. I happen to be in the market for a new bass trombone, and I'm trying to find a way to integrate a couple Greenhoe valves into the purchase without spending the kind of cash a Shires calls for. What kind of price range can I expect for a double valve kit? (Tubing included, or just valve/casing?) Are there any other trombones available with these valves yet? I'm thinking my best option would be to buy an old instrument that has a bell/slide/leadpipe combo I like (eg, closed wrap Bach 50 or Conn) and have a reputable repairman graft on the new valves (but where can I get that done that isn't on either the East or West Coast? The Brass Bow is in the MidWest, right?) Would it be possible/feasible to integrate these into an Edwards? (On a related note: Anyone have comments on their rotaries? I emailed them asking about the design, but no reply.) I may end up playing some other valves for a few years until I can afford what I want. From what I've seen (re: Thayers @ BrassWind) for the price of two valves + installation, you could buy a couple used horns, or a brand new Bach. Thanks for any suggestions, Nathan >Greenhoe, of course has it all right. A traditional rotor design with >skeletinized >rotor, properly vented ..with a new quick throw...and plays flawlessly! >These great rotors >will soon be readily available in kit form to install on ANY traditional >trombone or Bass trombone. Or anything else! > >Humbly yours, >Gary > From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:14:55 EDT From: JFBermann@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Fwd: For Sale: Bell Flairs Message-ID: <20.91ace08.26ade19f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_20.91ace08.26ade19f_boundary" Return-path: From: JFBermann@aol.com Full-name: JFBermann Message-ID: <7d.80996fa.26addd00@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:55:12 EDT Subject: For Sale: Bell Flairs To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 106 For Sale: MINT Holton TR-180/181 10" bell flair $225. MINT Conn 110H 10" bell flair $325. Jim Bermann JFBermann@aol.com From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:46:08 +0200 From: H du Plooy To: Trombone List Subject: Kuhnl & Hoyer trombone Message-ID: <001b01bff5af$cf5b1cc0$d04eef9b@y3u6v1> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Could anybody tell me the bore and bell size of the Kuhnl & Hoyer model 139 Bb/F trombone? Hans du Plooy hans@netactive.co.za From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:42:28 +0200 From: H du Plooy To: Trombone List Subject: Vintage trombones Message-ID: <001c01bff5af$d4e4a760$d04eef9b@y3u6v1> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This might be a dumb question, but I don't know the answer, so please help me out: How old is a trombone when we refer to it as a "vintage instrument"? Hans du Plooy hans@netactive.co.za From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:34:18 -0500 From: Richard L Corliss To: rcorliss@astound.net, Trombone-l mailing Subject: Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI Message-ID: <397C8C29.FCC538EF@astound.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard L Corliss wrote: > "DOWDY, KENNETH S" wrote: > > > Amen to where the money is. The Omaha Public Schools just purchased > > a bunch of new horns to replace their aging Conns. Most were Blessing and > > Olds, with few Bessons in the bunch. > > > > KSD > > Who is making these Olds? The traditional company went out of business in 1978 > and no one bought them out. I've read that the Olds name is found on some > imported horns. Is that right? Who is making them? > > Richard Corliss From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:09:34 -0500 From: Gary Greenhoe To: hans@netactive.co.za Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Vintage trombones Message-ID: <397CB08E.1078F51D@greenhoe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hans, I think of vintage trombones more as a fine wine. As in wine, experts rate batches of wines by the season they were bottled. I feel the same way about different models and makes of trombones. Then I break them down further as vintage (playable), vintage (old, significant design), Etc. For example, I have numerous old Conn 8-H horns from as far back as the mid 20's...some of these aren't very friendly mechanically so I prefer to think of them as old vintage. Others, like several 40'-50's 8-H's I have are remarkable and play very well mechanically. As for my preferences for Conn vintage, I personally think that the 8-H-88-H's of the 50's and early 60's were the nicest of their production for my taste. The old horns (20's-30's) seem to be a bit more hefty and are not as flexible to me. Generally the same applies to a series of 78-H's that I have. Regards, Gary H du Plooy wrote: > > This might be a dumb question, but I don't know the answer, so please help > me out: How old is a trombone when we refer to it as a "vintage > instrument"? > > Hans du Plooy > hans@netactive.co.za From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:13 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:46:14 -0500 From: "Dean McCarty" To: "Trombones and related issues forum" Subject: Elliott cup needed Message-ID: <001a01bff5b8$987a4240$864802d0@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BFF58E.AE4CE7A0"
Does anyone have an Elliott F cup and shank that they want to sell.  It needs to fit a Bach.  Thanks,
 
Dean McCarty
freelance trombonist, Houston area
 From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:16:02 EDT From: JFBermann@aol.com To: rcorliss@astound.net, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI Message-ID: <28.857497a.26ae1a22@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NEMC in New Jersey bought the Olds name and is having their private label instruments stamped as such. Ironically the tenor trombone appears to be a clone of the Bach 42 B and the bass a copy of the Bach 50B3. Also interesting was coming across a Blessing B98 that a local music store was trying to make play like a Bach for a customer. It too was a clone of the Bach 50B3, and it played nothing like a Bach, was stuffy, and used what appeared to be a much lower grade of parts. So whoever is making the Blessing and Olds must be one in the same. At one time, Mike Suter was working with Blessing on a pro bass trombone, and from what he told me came up with a really nice horn for them, but they were perfectly satisfied to continue to make clones for budget minded people. At one time I did have a Blessing B88RO, an open wrap red bell tenor that played great which I sold to a colleague for one of his students. So if you get to hand pick one, you can find a good tenor. The bass is another story though. Jim Bermann From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:03:15 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000724175926.00ad5c20@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I believe that it is in fact Blessing that is manufacturing for "Olds". At least they are making part of the gear that bears the Olds name. The Olds catalog also includes the Quadro. I believe that comes from DEG which in turn gets it from Weril if my information is correct. That's my understanding anyway. BTW, Blessing is a "real" company. They still make real instruments using real people who learn real crafts in the fine tradition of Elkhart Indiana. Cheers, Craig At 06:16 PM 7/24/00 -0400, JFBermann@aol.com wrote: >NEMC in New Jersey bought the Olds name and is having >their private label instruments stamped as such. Ironically >the tenor trombone appears to be a clone of the Bach 42 >B and the bass a copy of the Bach 50B3. Also interesting >was coming across a Blessing B98 that a local music store >was trying to make play like a Bach for a customer. It too >was a clone of the Bach 50B3, and it played nothing like >a Bach, was stuffy, and used what appeared to be a much >lower grade of parts. So whoever is making the Blessing >and Olds must be one in the same. At one time, Mike Suter >was working with Blessing on a pro bass trombone, and >from what he told me came up with a really nice horn for >them, but they were perfectly satisfied to continue to make >clones for budget minded people. At one time I did have >a Blessing B88RO, an open wrap red bell tenor that played >great which I sold to a colleague for one of his students. >So if you get to hand pick one, you can find a good tenor. >The bass is another story though. > >Jim Bermann From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:06:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Valve design Message-ID: <383629225.964480011596.JavaMail.root@web186-iw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not so sure that a Shires would cost all that much more than what you're looking at to buy a used horn and make a lot of modifications to it. AND you have the advantage of the modular parts that would allow you to make sure every aspect of the horn is what you want, not just the valve section. I taught a student who paid more for a new double thayer Bach than I did for my Shires, and waited at least as long for it as the Shires waiting list. Fortunately, he got a nice horn out of it, but if he hadn't, he wouldn't have had much recourse. You or I can call Steve Shires any day of the week and nearly always talk to him directly. I think that's an advantage worth paying for. Gabe ------Original Message------ From: "G. Nathan Medsker" To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: July 24, 2000 7:51:36 PM GMT Subject: Valve design Gary, I've been very impressed by the comments on your valve, and I like the concept from an aesthetic and engineering standpoint. I happen to be in the market for a new bass trombone, and I'm trying to find a way to integrate a couple Greenhoe valves into the purchase without spending the kind of cash a Shires calls for. What kind of price range can I expect for a double valve kit? (Tubing included, or just valve/casing?) Are there any other trombones available with these valves yet? I'm thinking my best option would be to buy an old instrument that has a bell/slide/leadpipe combo I like (eg, closed wrap Bach 50 or Conn) and have a reputable repairman graft on the new valves (but where can I get that done that isn't on either the East or West Coast? The Brass Bow is in the MidWest, right?) Would it be possible/feasible to integrate these into an Edwards? (On a related note: Anyone have comments on their rotaries? I emailed them asking about the design, but no reply.) I may end up playing some other valves for a few years until I can afford what I want. From what I've seen (re: Thayers @ BrassWind) for the price of two valves + installation, you could buy a couple used horns, or a brand new Bach. Thanks for any suggestions, Nathan >Greenhoe, of course has it all right. A traditional rotor design with >skeletinized >rotor, properly vented ..with a new quick throw...and plays flawlessly! >These great rotors >will soon be readily available in kit form to install on ANY traditional >trombone or Bass trombone. Or anything else! > >Humbly yours, >Gary > ............................................................. voted #1 search engine! http://www.iwon.com why wouldn't you? ............................................................. From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:39:57 EDT From: SFTrombone@aol.com To: Trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: The Sound of Work Leaving L.A. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What follows is an excellent article from the LA Times this weekend that concerns not only trombonists, but musicians in general. I think it might be of interest to the list. The author is right on as far as I can tell, though he did neglect one thing: that the rest of the musicians feel the downturn in business too. Those who record often do other live gigs when the recording dries up, and the shortage of work trickles down to everyone. The relevance to trombonists is that the dream of moving to LA and becoming a studio trombonists may not exist much anymore. Steve Ferguson "The Sound of Work Leaving L.A." By JON BURLINGAME Los Angeles Times July 23, '00 Calendar Section Last month on the Newman Scoring Stage at 20th Century Fox, 90 Los Angeles Musicians were performing nearly flawlessly, after a single read through, newly written music for a big summer movie. On this day, it happened to be Michael Kamen's driving score for "X-Men." It is work that has kept some of these studio veterans busy for years, even decades: playing the music that propels the action and heightens the emotional stakes in all sorts of movies and, on rare occasions, even sells millions of records. It is also, many observes say, work that is increasingly going elsewhere as a result of longstanding union agreements that some producers find troublesome. Scale wages for musicians performing on film scores in 1999 declined by more than 30% from the previous year, from $24.1 million to $16.3 million, according to officials of Local 47 of the American Federation of Musicians. Numbers for the first five months of 2000 are running about 10% below 1999, the union says. The slump may, in part, reflect a general overall reduction in orchestral scores, replaced by pop and rock songs, especially in films aimed at the huge teen audience. In part, it may also be a result of cutbacks in studio production overall. But members of the Recording Musicians Assn., the arm of the American Federation of Musicians that represents studio players say the downturn also indicates that production companies are increasingly heading to London, Seattle, Prague, even Moscow to record scores less expensively. This year, for example, the score for "Gladiator," "Shanghai Noon," "Chicken Run" and the forthcoming "Hollow Man" were recorded in London. The music for "Battlefield Earth" was recorded in Seattle, "I Dreamed of Africa" in Berlin. "Dinosaur," "The Patriot," "The Perfect Storm" and "The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle" were recorded in L.A. Musicians say the trend is hurting their livelihoods and may have a long-term effect on the cultural life of the city by diminishing the talent pool that was initially attracted here by lucrative studio work. But producers contend that the union is inflexible, and increasingly out of step with a global marketplace in which competition is keen and producers aren't saddle with backend royalties that allow musicians to share, many months later, the profits of successful movies. The reasons for the choice of venue can be as sound as the numbers-or as capricious as a producer or director wanting to take a trip and charge it to the production. Lately, L.A. musicians have benefited from "crash" post-production schedules and imminent release dates that make scoring here a necessity, despite the greater cost. With "X-Men," producer Lauren Shuler-Donner says, "we had too tight of a post-schedule. It was compulsory that we do it here. There would be no time to go to London. We had to lock picture and score and edit, sometimes at the same time. In this case, "traveling elsewhere wasn't an alternative." "X-Men's" Kamen, who has recorded scores in cities including L.A., London, Seattle, Munich and Prague, says that the composer rarely makes the decision, "although I do often get called on to make a suggestion as to where we do the score with the least amount of expenditure and with the most efficiency and musicality. I know that, generally speaking, it's an expensive process no matter which way you slice it, and the studios that make the films are, fairly, looking to save money." The quality of music making can also be an issue. Everyone seems to agree that L.A. and London are on a par for player excellence-L.A. because of the numbers of top musicians who gravitated here for the studio work, London because most of the players are drawn from five working symphonic ensembles, including the London Symphony and London Philharmonic orchestras. In L.A., "we have people from virtually every major symphony orchestra in the world," says Brian O'Connor, Recording Musicians Assn. president. "We have the former concertmaster of the Bolshoi Ballet, former members of the Berlin Philharmonic, the Concertge-bouw of Amsterdam, the London Symphony, the Israel Philharmonic, the L.A. Philharmonic." Notes composer Alan Silvestri: "If you are going to have to take a film out of L.A., London is really the only place to take it and still have parity with the overall ability to produce the score. Not just players, but facilities as well." Silvestri scored the just opened "What Lies Beneath" in L.A. and did his previous two pictures, "Stuart Little" and "Reindeer Games," here as well. As for Seattle, "if it's straight ahead music, they're very good musicians," says one composers' agent who asked for anonymity. "If it's a complex score, it's more iffy," Kamen recorded "Mr. Holland's Opus" and "Die Hard With a Vengeance" in Seattle. In both cases, the producers "didn't want to pay the back-end [royalties] for an L.A. orchestra," he recalls. With "Die Hard," Kamen says, "they needed to save money on a multi-million-dollar extravaganza " and so chose Seattle to record. That experience was "not happy," the composer says. "The musicians tried their very best, and we had some fun trying to make the music, but it wasn't the same," Kamen says. "It didn't feel right." In an era when $100-million budgets aren't uncommon, complaints about tens of thousands of dollars may seem trifling. Unfortunately for composers and the people who play their work, music comes at the end of the pipeline, during the post-production phase. By this time, the picture can be over budget, and producers are looking to trim costs wherever they can. Music often takes the hit. And because Los Angeles musicians are the most expensive in the business-because of their capabilities as well as their union benefits-some producers look around for better buys, despite the importance of music to the end product. Five days of recording with a 90-piece orchestra in Los Angeles costs about $290,000 in musicians' salaries and benefits; that figure does not include additional costs such as cartage, (transporting and setting up large instruments), use of the recording studio, a mixing engineer and related costs. An A-list composer's fee alone can run from $700,000 to $1 million. Then there are the costs of orchestrating, music copying and (if the composer doesn't conduct) conducting the score. All told, a music budget for a major feature often exceeds $1.5 million and can go much higher depending on such things as the licensing of pop songs. By comparison, musicians' costs in London (for the same size orchestra and the same five six-hour recording sessions) will run approximately 160,000 pounds, or around $250,000. In Seattle, the cost will be less than $200,000, because musicians are not recording under union contracts. What rankles some filmmakers who record in L.A. are the so-called back-end payments, the royalties that accrue to studio musicians when a score is recorded under union auspices. A "new use" payment is made to players when a soundtrack is released, and a "special payments fund" commitment gives the musicians a tiny percentage of the producer's profits when a film is sold into ancillary markets (such as cable TV free TV or home video) a year or two down the line. On the surface, it doesn't sound like a big deal. The soundtrack payment, depending on the size of the orchestra and the amount of music used on the record, can be $40,000-$70,000, according to most estimates. The special-payments royalty is an unknown because it depends entirely on the film's success. Though there is no direct correlation to box-office performance a hit will sell for more money to TV and therefore generate more income. American Federation of Musician's contracts call for a payment of 1% of the adjusted gross income from a sale. If, for example, a movie is sold to cable for a $100,000, then the producer must write a $1,000 check to the fund which is divided among the players who played on the score. (Guild representing Actors, Writers, Directors and other crafts people also have residual agreements covering post-theatrical exhibition profits.) Fund administrator Dennis Dreith estimates that this year the fund will collect about $51 million from 5,000 films in the marketplace, making the average per-film payment around $10,000. While Dreith declined to disclose specifics because of financial confidentiality agreements, other sources say that "True Lies," for example, generated more than $290,000 in special-payments money, while "Scream" paid more than $330,000 into the fund. Producers can avoid these payments by recording outside Los Angeles and are doing so in increasing numbers. Sandy DeCrescent, a contractor who assembles orchestras for such top composers as John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner, used to work on an average of 65 movies a year. This year, she is projecting a total of 40 to 45. DeCrescent is chairwoman of the Recording Musicians Assn.'s newly formed education committee, whose aim is to "correct the misinformation," about union payments. But, she admits, it's hard to fight the fact that musicians in other cities work under a "buyout understanding," meaning that the original session fee for a musician includes all possible later uses for the music. "You can go to London, record the score, and do anything you want with that finished product-put it on a CD, sell it to free TV of pay TV, anything," she says. "It's a buyout. [Producers] never have to do any bookkeeping, there are no future payments, nothing. How can we really compete with that?" London contractor Isobel Griffith aggress that the buyout clause is attractive. "A lot of independent companies, as opposed to major studios, quite like to have a buyout, because that suits the way they operate, whereas major studios are completely geared up for residuals and they're used to that kind of payment structure," Griffiths explains. Seattle-area classical musicians, recognizing an opportunity for more work, seceded from the musicians' federation in 1990 and formed their own labor group. There too it's a buyout, and producers can avoid soundtrack payments and later royalties to musicians one fee covers all. According to union statistics, about 730 L.A. musicians qualify for health and welfare benefits by virtue of consistent employment. Less than half of those make more than $60,000 annually, officials estimate. Still fewer-maybe 150-"make a very good living doing strictly film work," DeCrescent believes. Most of these musicians count on their annual special-payments fund checks for as much as half of their income, the result of having played on hundreds of movie scores over many years. Violinist Julie Gigante, who augments her studio work by playing in the L.A. Chamber Orchestra and other classical ensembles, says that the impact of the decline in work is already being felt. "People whose families rely on only their studio income are struggling. It's very unsettling for them," she says. Recording Musicians Assn. President O'Connor says that in recent years, the union has made a number of concessions designed to keep more work in L.A.: reducing the soundtrack payment by 50%, which has resulted in an increase in the number of orchestral album releases; making a "low-budget film" agreement that amounts to a 37% reduction in musicians' scale wage on films budget for less than $15 million; and dropping the premium-pay demand for Saturday and Sunday sessions. Citing the caliber of musicianship in the studio orchestras, Gigante adds: If they're not hired here, they can go almost anywhere else and get a job. If that happens then all of L.A. will suffer. Not only do they do studio music, they also do symphonies, chamber music and teaching. "I hate it when people say, "Can't we do this out of town?" says Fox Music President Robert Kraft, who is also a composer and, not incidentally, a member of the musicians' federation. "It's hurtful, because I say, 'You're going to get less quality.' They say, "Yeah, but that $250,000 can be put into another day of shooting." Kraft also oversees the Newman music stage, where Alfred Newman conducted some of the greatest scores in Hollywood history during his 20-year tenure as Fox's music director. "The overriding rubric is, anything I can score on the Fox stage is unquestionably my first choice. Los Angeles musicians are the absolute world's best for film scoring," Kraft says. "But the most expensive way to score a film is on the Fox stage with union musicians. Every other combination is, in some way, money-saving." London is an increasingly popular option. Oscar winner Hans Zimmer ("The Lion King") was a session musician in England back in the '80s, and he recently scored "Gladiator" there. "Partly it was a creative decision," he says. "I could have had less players and done it here, but there was a certain sound I wanted, which I knew I could get really easily in London." London scoring isn't always the answer, financially speaking. Zimmer, who scored "The Thin Red Line" over several week in L.A. says, "Dollar for dollar, I think it might be the same price." Adds Fox's Kraft: "The fantasy is, let's go to London and save $150,000. Then somebody does the math on eight people flying first-class and staying in the Dorchester for a week, and it comes to $149,900." James Newton Howard, who recorded his last six scores in L.A., including "Dinosaur," "Snow Falling on Cedars" and "The Sixth Sense," says he far prefers working with Los Angeles musicians. "Considering the pressures and the time constraints put on all of us, their ability to get the job done and to accurately realize the emotional context of a piece of music is unsurpassed. I feel an intense sense of loyalty to the people here." Elliot Goldenthal did two "Batman" movies here but scored the recent "Titus" in London for what he calls "purely economic reasons." Back-end payments are "not only a factor, they are a huge consideration for a producer" in deciding where to record, he says. There's little agreement about what can be done to keep the scoring work in L.A. Musicians and their union representatives are loath to give up hard-won financial bonuses. Composers, who are often trying to realize an effective orchestral score in the face of mounting pressure to save costs, are caught in the middle. Producers want the biggest bang for their buck. "Frankly, I think there needs to be a combination of things," says Shuler- Donner. "California government has to do something to give tax benefits so that it makes it worthwhile to both film and score in Los Angeles, along with the union taking a hard look at their prices." Says Dreith, a composer and former Recording Musicians Assn. president: "I think the decisions readily come down to how you weigh business and art. Can you get an orchestra in London that can sound convincing quoting Brahms one minute and Duke Ellington the next? No. Can you do that in Los Angeles? You bet." Silvestri is philosophical about the future of scoring in L.A. "'It really is a question of the marketplace," he says. "There are two things the L.A. musicians can do. One is, they are the quality establishment; they must not lose that. They must continue to populate the scoring stages with their best. "The other aspect is, they have to be dispassionately discerning about the real condition of their business. Sometimes it means holding firm on how you price your product and being willing to sell fewer units at this price, and at some point some point it may involve a reconsidering of the price, if their interest is to sell more units. It's just a marketplace." From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:47:05 +0200 From: H du Plooy To: Trombone List Subject: Trombone-L Archives Message-ID: <014101bff5cc$00d732e0$d04eef9b@y3u6v1> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've tried to no avail to download the Trombone-L archives prior to March 1999 using the Get command. No success. What should I do? Hans du Plooy hans@netactive.co.za From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:10:10 -0400 From: "Jim Trembley" To: Subject: Fw: trombone conversion Message-ID: <002301bff5cc$b4bd46a0$1884f4d0@jt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BFF5AB.2B1D0C80"
 
----- Original Message -----
To
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 10:20 PM
Subject: trombone conversion

I have a Bach 42b and I would like to find someone who could customize it to a convertable Straight/F attachment like the model that bach sells.  Is that something anyone has experience with, and if it is possible what is the approximate cost of such an endeavor
 From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:09:31 -0500 From: "Brian Frederiksen" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Kuhnl & Hoyer trombone Message-ID: <002601bff5bb$d93ce780$9a90fea9@hp500> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The U.S. distributor for Kuhnl & Hoyer is George Foster. His email is gfoster@dsl.telocity.com . Here's the info: bore 13.9 mm = .547" bell 220 - 8.66" He says there is one in stock Brian Frederiksen WindSong Press PO Box 146 Gurnee, Illinois 60031 Phone 847 223-4586 Fax 847 223-4580 brianf@windsongpress.com www.windsongpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "H du Plooy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 2:46 PM Subject: Kuhnl & Hoyer trombone > Could anybody tell me the bore and bell size of the Kuhnl & Hoyer model 139 > Bb/F trombone? > > Hans du Plooy > hans@netactive.co.za > > From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:35:49 -0500 From: "Dean McCarty" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: trombone conversion Message-ID: <002901bff5d8$b328cd80$43c02bcf@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BFF5AE.C0CC6AC0"
Get in touch with the list's own Eric Swanson... he does great work.  His email is: swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 7:10 PM
Subject: Fw: trombone conversion

 
----- Original Message -----
To
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 10:20 PM
Subject: trombone conversion

I have a Bach 42b and I would like to find someone who could customize it to a convertable Straight/F attachment like the model that bach sells.  Is that something anyone has experience with, and if it is possible what is the approximate cost of such an endeavor
 From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:54:02 EDT From: Tbcwes@aol.com To: langfur@mail.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Valve design Message-ID: <84.8770fc9.26ae4d3a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/00 7:07:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, langfur@mail.com writes: << I can call Steve Shires any day of the week and nearly always talk to him directly. I think that's an advantage worth paying for. >> Don't open that can of worms. ;-) -Wes From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:11:39 -0500 From: Candice & Eric Swanson To: craig@acticalc.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Steinway/Selmer purchase of UMI Message-ID: <397D0565.D38F076E@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 06:16 PM 7/24/00 -0400, JFBermann@aol.com wrote: > >NEMC in New Jersey bought the Olds name and is having > >their private label instruments stamped as such. Ironically > >the tenor trombone appears to be a clone of the Bach 42 > >B and the bass a copy of the Bach 50B3. Also interesting > >was coming across a Blessing B98 that a local music store > >was trying to make play like a Bach for a customer. It too > >was a clone of the Bach 50B3.......... > Craig Parmerlee wrote: > I believe that it is in fact Blessing that is manufacturing for "Olds". At > least they are making part of the gear that bears the Olds name. Craig, I agree. Everything I've seen says Blessing is making the "Olds" brass instruments. They are identical to the Blessing brasses, but are engraved with the Olds name. Eric Swanson From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:28:02 -0600 From: cworth To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Rath R9 Message-ID: <397C7CA2.9A952557@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 24 Jul 00 Trombone-L, Are there any owners of the Rath R9 bass trombone willing to rave (surely not complain?) about their horns to me? Please contact me personally. Alan Charlesworth cworth@pacbell.net From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 21:15:22 -0700 From: John Capon To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Vintage trombones Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >This might be a dumb question, but I don't know the answer, so please help >me out: How old is a trombone when we refer to it as a "vintage >instrument"? > >Hans du Plooy >hans@netactive.co.za Hans, For "vintage" read "antique" which means not in production. John From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:51:31 -0500 From: "Robert Holland" To: "Trb. List" Subject: Re: The Sound of Work Leaving L.A. Message-ID: <200007250511.0182800@mail.chicagonet.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Steve Ferguson posted > "The Sound of Work Leaving L.A." > By JON BURLINGAME > Los Angeles Times July 23, '00 Calendar Section [snip] > Musicians say the trend is hurting their livelihoods and may have a > long-term effect on the cultural life of the city by diminishing the talent > pool that was initially attracted here by lucrative studio work. But > producers contend that the union is inflexible, and increasingly out of > step with a global marketplace in which competition is keen and producers > aren't saddled with backend royalties that allow musicians to share, many > months later, the profits of successful movies. A very interesting article, but flawed in its characterization to some degree, I think. If the trend is away from recording in LA, that is a business decision totally within reasonable operation of any film production. And if musicians note that there is less work now, well, it's always waxed and waned. Twenty-five years ago, before John Williams and Star Wars, folks bemoaned the collapse of orchestral film scores in the wake of cheaper electronic and studio music. As far as negative effects on cultural life and the talent pool, I don't buy that for a moment. There are more quality musicians and ensembles now than ever before. Entrepreneurial musicians create their own work. And film scores are hardly the stuff of high culture. When the love theme or the foreboding motif occur in movies, I'm often irritated that the story itself fails to elicit the appropriate response, but the music sure tells me what to feel. It's artificial and manipulative, but that's just me. But yeah, I'm not completely unsympathetic. I wish there were more work for everyone, not just the few hundred or so in LA fortunate enough to have gotten film gigs. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/briar.htm From ???@??? Tue Jul 25 14:48:14 2000 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:21:25 -0400 From: "Dyke, David" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Vintage trombones Message-ID: <1D1A4EF7AD4DD211A80D00A0C9D7DB6605C53350@exna1.stratus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Also, like an automobile, 25 years old is a good starting point ! Best Regards, Dave -----Original Message----- From: John Capon [mailto:bigbird@islandnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:15 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Vintage trombones >This might be a dumb question, but I don't know the answer, so please help >me out: How old is a trombone when we refer to it as a "vintage >instrument"? > >Hans du Plooy >hans@netactive.co.za Hans, For "vintage" read "antique" which means not in production. John