TROMBONE-L Digest 1734

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: boiling your mouthpiece - NO!!!
	by Jonathan Harker <jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz>
  2) RE: Killing bacteria (was slide oil)
	by Jonathan Harker <jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz>
  3) Re: pay for play
	by Walter Barrett <wbarrett@bestweb.net>
  4) OTJ Classifieds Update, July 3, 2000
	by Chris Waage <chris@trombone.org>
  5) NZSO Contract Trombone position
	by Jonathan Harker <jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz>
  6) Pan American horns ?
	by sabutin@mindspring.com
  7) Re: self-worth
	by Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
  8) double-bell euph
	by Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
  9) Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve
	by "Justin Vibbard" <jvibbard@hotmail.com>
 10) aarrggh!
	by Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
 11) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by jimandcat@juno.com
 12) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
	by Mike Coyle <astro@pconline.com>
 13) Mouthpiece Exchange Update 7/3/2000
	by Chris Waage <basstbn@waageworks.com>
 14) Re: self-worth
	by Mike Coyle <astro@pconline.com>
 15) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@lightspeed.net>
 16) Re: Pan American horns ?
	by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
 17) Re: Pan American horns ?
	by "Aaron Roth" <bassrange@hotmail.com>
 18) ATTENTION - VIRUS ALERT
	by Bob Koester <bkoester@fixbusinessdebt.com>
 19) Re: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve
	by "Steve Beck" <becks@pilot.msu.edu>
 20) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
 21) MPCX Close-Out List
	by Chris Waage <basstbn@waageworks.com>
 22) Re: Pan American horns ?
	by "Art Triggs" <artyart@bestweb.net>
 23) Re: Pan American horns ?
	by Galen Zinn <zinger@musician.org>
 24) A copper bell Conn
	by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
 25) Re: Pan American horns ?
	by "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@lightspeed.net>
 26) Re: A copper bell Conn
	by BassBonist@aol.com
 27) Re: A copper bell Conn
	by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
 28) Re: A copper bell Conn
	by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
 29) Scales to practice by
	by Zemry@aol.com
 30) Help-Debussy-Michael Allen arr.
	by doula@isn.net (Dale Sorensen)
 31) Re: A copper bell Conn
	by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
 32) Re: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve
	by David Oliver <dcoliver@accessnetusa.com>
 33) Re: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve (oops)
	by David Oliver <dcoliver@accessnetusa.com>
 34) Re: Scales to practice by
	by Galen Zinn <zinger@musician.org>
 35) Re: self-worth
	by "Adolphus Sprott" <weslanke@worldnet.att.net>
 36) Stephen Lange
	by "Adolphus Sprott" <weslanke@worldnet.att.net>
 37) Re: self-worth
	by "Jeff Albert" <jalbert@bellsouth.net>



From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:27:45 +1200
From: Jonathan Harker <jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz>
To: ellard@sprint.ca,
        "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: boiling your mouthpiece - NO!!!
Message-ID: <4.1.20000704001742.0407d1d0@pop3.paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>At 02:38 01/07/00, Rodney Ellard wrote:
>Why not just run the 'piece through the dishwasher.  Your choice whether you
>want dishes in the machine during the cycle.
>
>Rod

Boiling the mouthpiece is probably okay, as it is only silver or gold
plating, which can endure similar treatment on cutlery, etc.

BUT I WOULDN'T PUT IT IN THE DISHWASHER!!!

Dishwasher detergent is quite corrosive and also contains very fine
abrasives, about the same grade that is in toothpaste. This can't be very
good for the finish, and it is why they say not to stick silverware,
crockery with gold trim, bare steel or bone-handled knives in the DW. Ever
noticed how the print-on designs on cups and glasses wear off after a while
in the DW? They won't wear off if you hand-wash them.

Just my £0.02     :o)

Johnno.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   ____/          Jonathan Harker
  (____\____      Email: jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz
    o||_____)     ICQ:   30647378
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

</x-charset>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:10:35 +1200
From: Jonathan Harker <jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz>
To: David_Dyke@stratus.com,
        "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: RE: Killing bacteria (was slide oil)
Message-ID: <4.1.20000704005228.0407d710@pop3.paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:11 29/06/00, Dyke, David wrote:
>How about the use of a Hydrogen Peroxide / water Solution. Any caveats ??
>
>Thanks

Hydrogen peroxide slowly decays into water and oxygen naturally thus:

   2H2O2 -> 2H2O + O2

Transition metal oxides, such as the tarnished brass found inside slide
tubing, catalyse the reaction, sometimes explosively so (depending on the
concentration of peroxide). So basically, using peroxide to disinfect your
horn would not be a good plan, because if your slide didn't energretically
spout water all over the bathroom due to the sudden build-up of oxygen gas,
the peroxide would decay pretty rapidly and be useless. I just use soap and
WARM water (hot water blisters the lacquer).

By the way, a nice way to warm your mouthpiece up on cold winter mornings
is to brush and rinse it in a little warm soapy water! Okay so it's summer
for most of you out there... meanwhile I'm freezing my nethers off in
Christchurch (look on a map!) -2 today - degrees C; who uses Farenheit
anyway??? :-).

Johnno.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   ____/          Jonathan Harker
  (____\____      Email: jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz
    o||_____)     ICQ:   30647378
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:50:37 -0400
From: Walter Barrett <wbarrett@bestweb.net>
To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: pay for play
Message-ID: <39609A27.35FB9BDD@bestweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



"Paul D. Kemp, Jr." wrote:
Getting back to the gig scene, my wife is a violist, and it's a crying shame

> that she never walks out the door to play a gig for less than $100, and most
> of the time it's considerably more than that, and a s a trombonist I have to
> settle for the $100 gigs I get. I don't turn down $100 jobs, but why should
> the string players really rake it in and the wind players settle for less?
> What Walter said about the gigs that pay the most are the most fun is
> ABSOLUTELY TRUE, and I'll add that the gigs that pay the most are the ones
> where you'll be treated the best by your employer as well. Don't ask me why
> that is, but that's something I learned many years ago, that if it costs
> more, it must be better. If any of you happen to be friends with string
> players. find out what a string quartet charges to do a wedding.  I've heard
> that harpists are the real pricey ones---I know of a harpist whose husband
> plays bass trombone, and they both happened to play the same gig (at
> different times), but the harpist made more than the brass quintet in which
> the bass trombonist played in did.
>
> I trust that this real life scenario will cause the light to come on in your
> minds--you've worked your can off to play your instrument at a high level,
> and if you don't ask for more money right up front, rest assured---------YOU
> WON'T GET IT.
>
> Paul Kemp
> Chattanooga Symphony
>

Paul-
Thanks for your kind remarks about my earlier post. I had a few observations
that came to mind after reading your comments...
String players and harpists most likely charge more for their services because
their equipment costs a LOT more. I taught trombone to the son of a fairly
famous cellist, and I could have traveled to the Shires factory, spent 2 days
trying out options, and come home with 2 horns for what it cost this gentleman
for his BOW, forget about the cello itself! (Remember that the next time you
complain about a custom mouthpiece's price) About 15 years ago, I had a day gig
At Sam Ash Music, and would occasionally get a call about where to get a harp.
The cheapest Lyons & Healy harp back then went for $35000, not including the
dolly, padded bag, or the station wagon needed to travel around with it.
It seems to me that the post that started all this was for a job that is
essentially a part time one, probably a 35 or 42 week season? If the local
college didn't already have a trombone prof, you could have plenty of time to
carry a good sized teaching load, and still have time in the off season to
travel, play an out of town festival, etc. If the orchestra had a school
outreach program, brass quintet, pops series, etc., there's a lot of extra
services right there.
As someone who worked in various day jobs before finally cutting the ties that
bind, I can definitely say that playing/teaching music full-time is lots better
than the alternative.
"Do what you love, love what you do" is great advice, to which I would add "and
DON'T underprice yourself!"

Walter Barrett
Yamaha Artist/Clinician


From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:31:33 -0500
From: Chris Waage <chris@trombone.org>
To: Trombone-L <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update, July 3, 2000
Message-ID: <p04310115b5865421de93@[206.52.159.95]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

<x-flowed>The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds 
(http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 9:30 
a.m. CDT on July 3, 2000 with 19 new listings.

OTJ Instrument Classifieds
   http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/instruments.asp

OTJ Accessory Classifieds
   http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/accessories.asp

OTJ Music Classifieds
   http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/music.asp

To place an ad:
   http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/adform.asp

If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone 
Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org.

Chris


OTJ Online Privacy Policy
http://www.trombone.org/privacy.asp
-- 
_________________________________________
Chris Waage
   chris@trombone.org
Associate Webmaster
The Online Trombone Journal
   http://www.trombone.org

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:41:09 +1200
From: Jonathan Harker <jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz>
To: Trombone and related issues forum <Trombone-L@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: NZSO Contract Trombone position
Message-ID: <4.1.20000704023019.03f70460@pop3.paradise.net.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Folks,

If you've ever wanted to come and work in NZ, here's the chance!

There's a contract trombone position for the NZSO coming up soon. The
contract is Acting Principal (or Acting Sub if the Sub wins the audition)
from October 2000 to September 2001 while the Principal, Marc Taddei, is on
leave. The audition will be in Wellington, NZ on Wednesday 23 August, at
4pm. The excerpts are Schumann 3, Mozart Requiem, Bolero, Berlioz Hungarian
March, and the Ride.

The NZSO site is

http://www.nzso.co.nz

and includes an auditions page for contact details, etc. Just thought I'd
let y'all know!

Happy practising,
Johnno

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   ____/          Jonathan Harker
  (____\____      Email: jonathan.harker@paradise.net.nz
    o||_____)     ICQ:   30647378
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:55:21 -0400
From: sabutin@mindspring.com
To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Pan American horns ?
Message-ID: <200007031459.KAA27561@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

   Hi...

   Does anyone know what Pan American brand horns were all about ? Were
they a student line of Conn's or just regular Conns stamped w/a different
name to be sold through mail order stores like Sears Roebuck and Montgomery
Ward ?

   Thanks...

   S.


From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:56:14 -0500
From: Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: self-worth
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000703094524.00b18b20@acticalc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

<x-flowed>At 10:08 PM 7/2/00 -0500, Dean  McCarty wrote:
>Dave,  Good points... but my point may have been misconstrued.  I have
>worked fast food and have had family in management.  The point that I meant
>to convey is that even though someone could make $40,000 to $80,000 being a
>fast food or pizza joint manager that does not necessarily mean that they
>are happy with their job.  They are like most people... they wake up go to
>work and come home, day in and day out.  They yearn for their vacation time
>and can't wait for retirement.  Is this a bad thing...  no, it is reality.
>I think that if a poll was taken most people would maybe like the pay that
>they receive, but are dissatisfied with their job.  I do realize that this
>is not a universal truth, nor do I intend it to be a blanket statement.

Dean,

I think I'd have to come down on Dave's side here too.  I am not at all 
convinced that full-time musicians are happier on average than MacDonald's 
managers.  I had the occasion several times in the past to make 
presentations on the premises of Hamburger University (MacD's management 
training facility outside Chicago).  BTW, the architecture is fabulous -- 
straight out of the Frank Lloyd Wright school, if anybody is interested in 
that.  Anyway, in every case, in adjoining rooms were managers learning 
about how to do their job well.  They were having so much fun that it often 
made it difficult to keep my presentation on track.

Hamburgers and art seem to be pretty far afield.  However, I think the good 
MacD managers derive great satisfaction in pleasing customers and being a 
role model for the youngsters under their charge.

In contrast, I know quite a few "professional" musicians that haven't 
enjoyed a minute of their careers for decades.  It is sad.  I think 
happiness has to come from within the person.  One career doesn't lead to 
greater happiness than another, IMHO.  Heck, I know a guy who works for the 
sewage treatment plant and couldn't be more enthusiastic about the work he 
is doing.

The view from my picture window.
Craig


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:21:44 -0400
From: Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
To: trombone-L <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: double-bell euph
Message-ID: <3960AF88.1DA588B0@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ON the subject of double bell euphonium:

I played an ancient Conn five-valve double bell euphonium through high 
school (1963-67) because no one else would carry it: Too heavy. There
was no transposition involved: the 5th valve simply put the sound
through the small bell, thereby making it more trombone-like. Valve 4
acted as the F attachment on a trombone or the 4th valve on today's
euphs. It was a non-compensating horn built in the 1930s and sounded
great.  That 4th valve won me 1st chair in regional band because the
sightreading went down to a low D and all the other guys stopped when
they encountered this seldom seen note on their 3-valve baritones.  I
never used the small bell except for novelty, so I have no idea what its
formal use was. 

Dave Molter

From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:22:02 CDT
From: "Justin Vibbard" <jvibbard@hotmail.com>
To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve
Message-ID: <20000703152202.15762.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

<x-flowed>I'm sure this has probably already been mentioned or discussed but I've been 
absent from the Listserve for a few months so I apologize if this is a 
repeat topic.

My question is about the new conn 88H with the new Lindberg valve.  Does 
anyone own one of these yet or tried one out??  I'm currently looking into 
purchasing an upgrade from my intermediate Benge 65F (with a closed 
wrap..ugghh).  I'd appreciate any comments anyone has on the new horn.

Justin Vibbard
Lincoln, NE

----Original Message Follows----
From: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 1733
Date: Mon,  3 Jul 2000 12:04:33


			    TROMBONE-L Digest 1733

Topics covered in this issue include:

   1) Re: Is this topic still "buzzing" or are those flies around a
   dead horse?  :-)
	by sabutin@mindspring.com
   2) Wages (was: trombone audition)
	by BassBonist@aol.com
   3) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by jimandcat@juno.com
   4) Re: pay for play
	by jimandcat@juno.com
   5) Fw: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by jimandcat@juno.com
   6) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by Jimkinkella1@aol.com
   7) Re: Fw: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
   8) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by BassBonist@aol.com
   9) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
	by "Edwin Miller" <edwin.miller@nashville.com>
  10) Haddad Suite performance
	by Walter Barrett <wbarrett@bestweb.net>
  11) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by "Richard L. Byrd" <rlb@trombone.org>
  12) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
	by "ksdowdy" <ksdowdy@email.msn.com>
  13) Re: self-worth
	by Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
  14) Re: Question:  Old Conn Connquest Trombone
	by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
  15) Re: self-worth
	by "Dean  McCarty" <bassbone@exp.net>
  16) Fw:
	by "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
  17) Re: Semipros
	by "Rod Ellard" <ellard@sprint.ca>
  18) Re: pay for play
	by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." <trbnplyr@earthlink.net>
  19) Re: Conn trombone
	by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
  20) Re: Thayer Valve bumpers?
	by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
  21) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
	by "Gary Maxwell" <gdmaxwell@lightspeed.net>
  22) Re: King 606
	by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
  23) OTJ Enews #8
	by "Richard Human, Jr." <richard@trombone.org>
  24) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
	by "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@lightspeed.net>
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________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:29:13 -0400
From: Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
To: trombone-L <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: aarrggh!
Message-ID: <3960B149.E09F90F3@earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Listers all:

It appears that in my pre-July 4 haze I may have included the contents
of the entire digest in a response to the list yesterday. So if what you
read today looks way too familiar, it's my fault. No more hitting the
"Reply" button for me.

Dave Molter

From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:08:45 -0700
From: jimandcat@juno.com
To: joetuba@lightspeed.net, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Cc: craig@acticalc.com, BassBonist@aol.com, rlb@trombone.org
Subject: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
Message-ID: <20000703.090846.-76589.0.Jimandcat@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joe, 
I have played 4 different double bell euphs that when you use the 4th
valve the open horn (out of the smaller bell) becomes the Eb overtone
series, a fourth higher. A student brings one of these horns (Boston
Music Co., 1887) to lessons each week. All of the instruments I've played
were made before 1930.Those have been the only dbl bells I have ever
seen. Since then, perhaps the tenor/baritone Bb bell combination came to
be the standard. 

Jim

On Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:10:33 -0700 "Joe L. Norcross"
<joetuba@lightspeed.net> writes:
> Jim the bells switch, not the pitch.  BOTH BELLS ARE IN Bb
> ______________________________________
> Joe L. Norcross
> Tuba:  Sequoia Winds and Visalia, CA British Brass Band
> Tuba and Announcer, Kingsburg,CA, City Band
> joetuba@lightspeed.net

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:10:23 -0500
From: Mike Coyle <astro@pconline.com>
To: edwin.miller@nashville.com
Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000703103241.00aa9b70@mail.pconline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

<x-flowed>At 03:47 PM 7/2/00, you wrote:
>Don't mean to pick on this one message but this thread is very revealing
>about the level of frustration and bitterness compensation issues can create
>if you let them.
>
>I should disclose that I no longer make my primary living from playing
>trombone but I do make a signficant and valuable (to me at least) income
>from trombone playing.
>
>How sad it is to let the issue of compensation get in the way of one's love
>of the trombone and music in general.  I may sound preachy but I guess
>that's the mood I'm in...


I like this post, Edwin - it took some guts to put it on the list - thank you.

I used to make all my money from music.  I did everything I could, played 
trombone (til I quit that to pursue grad studies), I accompanied ballet 
classes (on piano, not trombone :) in New York and Boston, played solo jazz 
piano, and a lot of my money came from writing for TV, and arranging (most 
of it under pseudonyms or production company names because I didn't want to 
be classified as a commercial musician!  A telling sign that you don't want 
to do what you're doing if there ever was one).  After doing enough of all 
that crap, most of it for money, I started to resent it and started to lose 
my excitement and child-like awe of music.  I didn't even want to listen to 
music on my days off, which were very few.

One day I said, "#^@! this", I'm losing my love for the one thing that has 
always been special in my life.  From that day on I decided to do something 
different so that I'd never HAVE to play a gig for money because I HAD to, 
and I haven't.  I still play a lot, and sometimes there's money involved, 
but I only do what I want to, with WHO I want to, and I'm much 
happier.  I'm still actively involved in music from the production side, 
producing shows, recordings, etc.  I still love composing and 
experimenting, and teaching, and I play for about 4 hours everyday.

I don't worry about money, have lots of free time, and LOVE music again!  I 
think even if I had gone into the orchestral world as a trombonist as I had 
planned to during undergrad school, I would have gotten burnt out after a 
few years and looked for something else to do, I abhor repetition.

Bottom line:  I'm much happier not doing music for money.  Also, now that I 
don't resent MY career, I don't even mind that some ball players sign 
contracts for 36 million bucks!  I say, good for them - if you're lucky 
enough to be in a field that our culture values, get what you can!  If you 
love something that our culture does not value (at least monetarily), then 
find a way to make nasty money somewhere else and love every second of time 
you spend making music  :-)

I don't ever want to be part of the "I'm over worked and underpaid" 
conversation again - life's too  short.

mike


>Some observations:
>
>1. It's a big world out there and there are lots of extremely fast paced,
>creative things to do with one's life in addition to music.  Many unwise
>musicians see music as an all or nothing proposition.  This is so narrow.
>God has blessed us with the ability to pursue more than one dream.  To say
>that because someone has other professions means that they are for some
>reason less diligent about their performance of the trombone is wishful
>thinking.  Excellence happens through diligent hard work and focus.  This is
>irrelevent to the number of things the person may be working on in their
>life.  Look at Albert Schweitzer and Charles Ives to name a couple.
>
>2. I am a union member and don't work on the cheap.  I agree that musicians
>should attempt to preserve a level of compensation commensurate with the
>value of what they provide.  I should clarify however, that I do play
>rehearsal bands, usually with other musicians who ARE full time players.  We
>do it because of the music and we are not selling anything at the time.  I
>won't play La Vida Loca for drunk dancers without getting paid but I will
>play Wade Marcus' version of Jordu for free.
>
>3. It is so easy to get hung up on what other people are making and what you
>are not.  This is a sad waste of life force.  Tend your own garden.  Be the
>best player you've ever heard.  Contribute to the lives of others.  Make it
>happen through a belief in hard work and perserverence.  Cynicism is an
>expensive luxury that most can ill afford.  To the outside world, bitter,
>angry musicians look like small bitter people.  Be better than that.
>
>Sorry for the soapbox...
>
>Ed
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <BassBonist@aol.com>
>To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
>Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:57 AM
>Subject: Wages (was: trombone audition)
>
>
> > Here's another wage scale that I found a bit amazing:
> >
> > Most major league baseball umpires work five months out of the year and
>get
> > paid
> > an average of $100,000!
> >
> > Just offered for trivia value, nothing else.
> >
> > Matt
> >


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:42:50 -0500
From: Chris Waage <basstbn@waageworks.com>
To: Trombone-L <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Mouthpiece Exchange Update 7/3/2000
Message-ID: <p0431012cb58672f61d79@[206.52.159.95]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

<x-flowed>July 3, 2000

Friends:

After long reflection, I have decided to close The Mouthpiece 
Exchange.  This will occur officially on July 15, but it will remain 
open until I have cleared all mouthpieces currently in inventory.  A 
full listing is available at either 
http://www.waageworks.com/list.html or in the Online Trombone Journal 
Classifieds at http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/accessories.asp

As most of you know, in addition to running The Mouthpiece Exchange, 
I work with the Online Trombone Journal, play principal trombone with 
the Topeka Symphony Orchestra and bass trombone for the Topeka Jazz 
Workshop and my church orchestra, free-lance throughout the area, and 
have a wife and four small children (proud dad moment - 
http://www.waageworks.com/kids).  168 hours in a week seem vast, but 
by the time I factor in a full time job, practice, performances, OTJ, 
The Mouthpiece Exchange and my family, something has to go.

Thank you for your patronage over the past year, and may the future 
bring you the best in everything you do.

Sincerely,

Chris Waage
-- 
_____________________________________________
Chris Waage
   basstbn@waageworks.com
The Mouthpiece Exchange
  http://www.waageworks.com
  - Buy - Sell - Trade -

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:27 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:42:01 -0500
From: Mike Coyle <astro@pconline.com>
To: kingbone@earthlink.net
Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: self-worth
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000703111700.00ab4e70@mail.pconline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

<x-flowed>
>
>
>Nor do I believe elive that doing something artistic is anymore
>fulfilling than producing the perfect 'burger. It's all in how you look
>at what you're doing, and only you can say for sure what that view is.


Bravo, Dave!  We do kind of get the idea that art makes us better, but, if 
there is a God, I doubt that Horowitz will be treated better in heaven than 
Joe the garbage man who was a good dad and faithful friend.

Or, maybe you belive that how you live in this life determines what you are 
in the next, as in the Hindu example.  The sages of India analyze mankind 
as belonging to  4 basic types which are in ascending order: the Sudras, 
those capable of offering service to society through bodily labor; the 
Vaisyas, those who serve through mentality, skill, agriculture, trade 
commerce, art and business; the Kshatriyas, those whose talents are 
administrative, executive and protective - rulers and warriors; and finally 
the Brahmins, those of  contemplative nature, spiritually inspired and 
inspiring.  Note that art is in the second type, not the last!  Not every 
culture sees things as we do, or as we'd like to.  I too believe it is not 
what you DO that makes you special, it is what you ARE and HOW you do what 
you do.  I'd rather spend 5 hours talking to a fast food manager who cared 
about his service to others and cared about how he behaved than I would 5 
seconds to an artist who is all about ego and power.  MUSIC is truly divine 
and truly inspired, but that does not mean that all those who produce it 
are.  Ultimately, concerning our collective interest, it is the music that 
must come first, the musician is only the channel.  Granted, some 
"channellers" are a lot better than others, but the music is the real miracle!

A healthy person's self-worth is not based on what he does, but rather who 
he is.

mike





>Dave Molter
>Pittsburgh, PA
>
>
>
> > trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu wrote:
> >
> >                             TROMBONE-L Digest 1732
> >
> > Topics covered in this issue include:
> >
> >   1) Thayer Valve bumpers?
> >         by Robert A Bates <rabbit@voyager.net>
> >   2) FS-Doug Elliott Bass 'Bone Mouthpiece
> >         by Chris Waage <chris@trombone.org>
> >   3) RE: Thayer Valve bumpers?
> >         by "Andrew Elms" <elmsandr@msu.edu>
> >   4) Re: Who plays 3b's?
> >         by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
> >   5) pay for play
> >         by Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
> >   6) Re: Conn Trombone Bore & Bell Sizes?
> >         by "Donovan Bankhead" <DonovanBankhead@msn.com>
> >   7) Re: Who plays 3b's?
> >         by sabutin@mindspring.com
> >   8) Question:  Old Conn Connquest Trombone
> >         by "Jerry P. Gordon" <jgordon@jgordon.com>
> >   9) Re: Who plays 3b's?
> >         by Harykoz@aol.com
> >  10) Re: Trombone audition
> >         by Roger Menning <Roger_Menning-G10891@email.mot.com>
> >  11) Kruspe Valve Trombone on ebay
> >         by "Kevin D. Miller" <tubakev@email.msn.com>
> >  12) Re: boiling your mouthpiece
> >         by "Robert Holland" <briar@chicagonet.net>
> >  13) Re: Trombone Audition
> >         by "Dean  McCarty" <bassbone@exp.net>
> >  14) Toy Trombones?
> >         by "Richard@trombone.org" <richard@trombone.org>
> >  15) RE: Semipros
> >         by jimandcat@juno.com
> >  16) Re: Trombone Audition
> >         by BassBonist@aol.com
> >  17) 2 bell euph?
> >         by Robert A Bates <rabbit@voyager.net>
> >  18) Re: Semipros
> >         by "Rod Ellard" <ellard@sprint.ca>
> >  19) Re: 2 bell euph?
> >         by "Aaron Roth" <bassrange@hotmail.com>
> >  20) Conn trombone
> >         by Earl Needham <kd5xb@amsat.org>
> >  21) Re: Semipros
> >         by "Jeff Albert" <jalbert@bellsouth.net>
> >  22) Re: Question:  Old Conn Connquest Trombone
> >         by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
> >  23) Re: 2 bell euph?
> >         by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
> >  24) Re: pay for play
> >         by Walter Barrett <wbarrett@bestweb.net>
> >  25) King 606
> >         by "Richard Barrett" <RBarrett@stockport37.freeserve.co.uk>
> >  26) Fw: Cape Town Philharmonic Orchestra
> >         by "iti03590" <iti03590@mweb.co.za>
> >  27) Re: 2 bell euph?
> >         by Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
> >  28) Re: 2 bell euph?
> >         by "Eric  Edwards" <bonearzt@mindspring.com>
> >  29) Re: Semipros
> >         by jimandcat@juno.com
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Thayer Valve bumpers?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 07:38:46 -0400
> > From: Robert A Bates <rabbit@voyager.net>
> > To: send <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Does any one know of a source for the rubber bumpers on Thayer valves.
> > Maybe a hardware or auto store product. Also, is there anyway to secure
> > the bumpers better.
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: FS-Doug Elliott Bass 'Bone Mouthpiece
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 08:11:04 -0500
> > From: Chris Waage <chris@trombone.org>
> > To: Trombone-L <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > To help support my Suburban's thurst, I have a Doug Elliott
> > Mouthpiece I'm selling:
> >    Rim:  Medium-wide LB 112 (similar to a Schilke 59 in inner diameter)
> >    Cup and shank:  LB K cup, K9 shank
> >
> > This mouthpiece is in mint condition.
> >
> > $100 - I'll pay shipping anywhere in the U.S.  Overseas, e-mail for 
> shipping.
> >
> > Chris
> > _________________________________________
> > Chris Waage            chris@trombone.org
> >             Associate Webmaster
> >         The Online Trombone Journal
> >           http://www.trombone.org
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: RE: Thayer Valve bumpers?
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:41:42 -0400
> > From: "Andrew Elms" <elmsandr@msu.edu>
> > To: <rabbit@voyager.net>,
> >      "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Use the same vacuum hose that somebody else already mentioned.  Or cut a
> > piece of cork.   When installing, look into the valve to make sure the 
> ports
> > line up and trim bumpers accordingly.  As for adhesive, crazy glue, some
> > variety on non permanent loctite, whatever you feel like.  You can always
> > scrape it off later....
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Robert A Bates
> > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 7:39 AM
> > To: Trombones and related issues forum.
> > Subject: Thayer Valve bumpers?
> >
> > Does any one know of a source for the rubber bumpers on Thayer valves.
> > Maybe a hardware or auto store product. Also, is there anyway to secure
> > the bumpers better.
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Who plays 3b's?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:11:37 -0500
> > From: Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
> > To: hamprod@mindspring.com, Trombone-l mailing 
> <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > hamprod wrote:
> >
> > > I was curious as to what jazz musicians who have recorded 
> played  a  3B and
> > > what labels they are on.  I want to hear what that particular horn 
> can do in
> > > the hands of a skilled player.  Thanks.
> > >
> > > Dave Molter mentioned J.J. who might have used a larger bell with his 
> .509
> > > bore.
> > >
> > > Looking for a little inspiration here.
> > >
> > > Frank
> >
> > I responded earlier to this post by mentioning John Allred. This post 
> has got me
> > thinking and I would like to respond in more detail by telling a story. 
> Four
> > years ago I picked up the trombone as a retirement hobby after being 
> away from
> > it for forty years. At that time I had only a Reynold horn that was not a
> > professional level horn. At that point in time I was going to jazz 
> festivals and
> > I started asking players what horn they played. I then discovered that 
> the 3b
> > was the most popular horn used in this context.
> >
> > At two festivals two trombone players impressed my very much and in 
> both cases
> > both players played 3bs. Three years ago at a festival in LaCrosse 
> besides John
> > Allred there was a fella from Chicago I liked very much. His name I'm 
> not sure
> > about, but Russ Phillips is a name that comes to me at the moment.
> >
> > I received an e-mail from someone who played with John and he said that 
> the 2b
> > was Allred's preferred horn. I'm certain however that besides seeing 
> him  three
> > years ago playing a 3b I saw him two years ago playing a silver 3b with a F
> > attachment at this same festival.
> >
> > Two years ago I was at a jazz festival in Madison, Wisconsin, and the two
> > players that stood out were Mark Janicki, with the Queen City Jazz 
> Band, from
> > Denver, and Jim Armstrong with Grand Dominion Jazz Band from Seatle. 
> Both played
> > 3bs. I have a very high respect for the work of Mark Janicki.
> >
> > As I recall Dan Barrett, a well known artist, also plays a 3b and so 
> does Dick
> > Doner who plays with the Night Bloomin' Jazz
> >
> > I think approximately half of the players I talked to played 3bs.
> >
> > Richard Corliss
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: pay for play
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:20:03 -0400
> > From: Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
> > To: trombone-L <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > I'll jump in on the "underpaid musician" thread again although much of
> > it has been hashed, rehashed and hashished to death. Here's my opinion
> > after having spent more than 20 years as a full-time rock musician and,
> > now, almost 20 years as a full-time writer/editor with stints as a
> > retail manager, and it boils down to one concise sentence: "The arts
> > don't pay."
> >
> > This statement obviously is overly simple, but it has a core of truth to
> > it. For whatever reasons, except at the highest levels, the arts don't
> > pay. They don't pay because the pubic doesn't support them. Musicians,
> > dancers, artists, actors have no power.  Even unionized, they have no
> > power. Let a football team threaten to leave the city, and a new stadium
> > goes up overnight.  Let the symphony orchestra threaten to leave, and a
> > new stadium goes up where the concert hall used to be.
> >
> > I could belabor this further, but I won't. I will point out that this
> > underpayment of those in the arts applies at all levels, not just to
> > performers. In the last year, I have inquired about or interviewed for a
> > few different arts related positions. Although each carried multiple
> > responsibilities, specialized training and extended hours, all paid less
> > than $25K yearly. Sadly, one of the positions I would loved to have been
> > considered for was as PR Director for a major symphony. But once they
> > found out what I now make as a technical editor, they refused even to
> > talk to me, thinking without asking that I'd demand equal pay or that
> > I'd be bored doing something "less demanding" than my current job. Now,
> > it's probably true that they couldn't have afforded me, but what really
> > miffed me is that they were unwilling to even negotiate, or to see if I
> > was worth negotiating with.  They knew that they'd find someone  more
> > than willing to grab the job at the offered salary. And they did. (One
> > side note, the PR job pays $6K yearly more than the Tucson Symphony
> > principal bone job.)  "Oh, I wish we could afford to hire people as
> > qualified as you," the hiring manager told me, "but it's the arts. And
> > the arts don't pay."
> >
> > Whether we like it or not, it's a universal truth. Don't know if it'll
> > ever change.
> >
> > Dave Molter
> > Pittsburgh, PA
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Conn Trombone Bore & Bell Sizes?
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:21:44 -0500
> > From: "Donovan Bankhead" <DonovanBankhead@msn.com>
> > To: <wahlbobs@teleport.com>,
> >      "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > In September we will debut our new website, which will have historical
> > information and current model information.  It will be at
> > http://www.unitedmusical.com/
> >
> > Donovan Bankhead
> > UMI District Manager
> > DonovanBankhead@msn.com
> > http://www.trumpetplayer.net/
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Who plays 3b's?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:02:18 -0400
> > From: sabutin @mindspring.com
> > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> >
> >         In and around NYC, off the top of my head, the people who have 
> played or
> > are playing 3Bs would include...
> >
> >         J.J. for many years, and Kai Winding too. (J.J. also played a 
> 3B bell
> > custom fit w/a 2B slide, as did Urbie Green.)
> >
> >         Dave Bargeron
> >
> >         Bruce Bonvissutto
> >
> >         Papo Vasquez
> >
> >    Barry Rogers
> >
> >         Reinaldo Jorge
> >
> >    Leopoldo Pineda
> >
> >    Jose Rodrigues (they were in fact the latin horn of choice for over 25
> > years)
> >
> >         Ed Neumeister
> >
> >         Jim Pugh until he switched to Edwards
> >
> >         Randy Andos
> >
> >         Keith O'Quinn for several years
> >
> >         Larry Farrell
> >
> >    I'm sure there are more, they just don't come to mind right now...
> >
> >    They are a good all around horn...GREAT projection and manners at high
> > volume (thus the latin connection), pretty even blow through three octaves,
> > good solid sound w/plenty of core, excellent sound and open blow from low
> > Bb on down.
> >
> >    The only real objection I've had to some of them (most of the older
> > ones, particularly) is that many have a kind of stuffy feeling to them, a
> > certain resistance to being easily flexible, and the 3rd partial is
> > notoriously unstable and woofy.
> >
> >    That being said, I've played some...Ed Neumeister's older horn
> > particularly...that were among the best horns I've ever played.
> >
> >    Later...
> >
> >    S.
> >
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Question: Old Conn Connquest Trombone
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:12:50 -0500
> > From: "Jerry P. Gordon" <jgordon@jgordon.com>
> > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > In my closet, in very good playing condition, is a Conn Connquest
> > Trombone I played through high school.  I play other horns now, and I
> > am curious about the this old one.
> >
> > According to resources I found on the Web, the 735,073 serial number
> > suggests that it may have been manufactured in 1958-1959.  That is
> > about all I know about it.
> >
> > Does anyone on the list know anything about this horn?  Was it
> > considered a student horn or a professional one?  Is it worth
> > anything?  Is it, as I suspect, a .500 bore horn?  Was it a good
> > model?  A decent model?  A not-very-good model?
> >
> > Any insight would be appreciated.
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Who plays 3b's?
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:10:58 EDT
> > From: Harykoz@aol.com
> > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> >
> > In a message dated 7/1/00 10:08:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
> > rcorliss@astound.net writes:
> >
> > << Three years ago at a festival in LaCrosse besides John Allred there 
> was a
> > fella from Chicago I liked very much. His name I'm not sure about, but Russ
> > Phillips is a name that comes to me at the moment.>>
> >
> > Russ Phillips is a fantastic trombone player and yes, he does play a 
> King 3B.
> > (At least for the moment.) He is one of only a few working players in the
> > Chicago market who is using a 3B. Many more players are using 2B's and 
> a lot
> > are playing Bach's. (16M's, 12's and straight 16's). In my experience, 
> there
> > really is not one trombone that is preferred by the majority of players. It
> > comes down to what works best for you.
> > 
> ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
> > 
> ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
> > 
> ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
> > ''''''
> > << I received an e-mail from someone who played with John and he said that
> > the 2b
> >  was Allred's preferred horn. >>
> >
> > The few times that I have had the opportunity to meet John, he was 
> playing a
> > King 2B.
> >
> > Later,
> >
> > Hary
> >
> > PS: Russ Phillips has a newly released CD that is worth checking out.
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Trombone audition
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:15:02 -0500
> > From: Roger Menning <Roger_Menning-G10891@email.mot.com>
> > To: Trombone List <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Wrong.  Wages and salaries are determined by supply and demand.  There 
> are zillions of
> > people capable of flipping burgers (or telling other people how to flip 
> burgers), so
> > they are paid only barely above the minimum wage.  Similarly, there is 
> an overabundance
> > of musicians capable of filling the available
> > positions (and who will work for peanuts), so those salaries are 
> minimal as well.
> > However, wages do NOT go up when profits go up, only when the labor 
> market gets tight.
> > Supply and demand.
> >
> > Roger Menning
> >
> > Timothy Richardson wrote:
> >
> > > What should determine what a worker should be paid?
> > >
> > > It is very simple (though this is probably going to be an unpopular 
> opinion).  He/she
> > should be paid on the basis of what profit he makes for his
> > employer.  Sadly, the macdonald's employee probably makes a lot of 
> profit for his
> > company, while the trombone player works for someone always in
> > the red.  Of course, it isn't always easy to apportion the profit 
> you're making, and in
> > a scarce market you might make more than you're really
> > entitled to (like if there weren't any trombone players willing to work 
> for $9.00 per
> > hour as posted in the audition note).  Any other payment scheme
> > is artificial and hard to justify.
> > > yours,
> > > capitalistically,
> > > tim richardson
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Kruspe Valve Trombone on ebay
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:16:57 -0500
> > From: "Kevin D. Miller" <tubakev@email.msn.com>
> > To: "TBONE LIST" <TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.EDU>,
> >      "Tuba List" <TubaEuph@egroups.com>
> >
> > Greetings All,
> > As much as it pains me to do this, I need the money. I just posted my rare
> > 20's vintage Kruspe 4 rotary valve trombone for auction on ebay. It is a
> > rare piece of history and I hope it goes to a nice loving home where it 
> will
> > be cared for properly. Check it out at this address.
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=371833675
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin Miller
> > http://www.tulsaband.com
> > Tulsa Band Instruments
> > 5433-B South Mingo Rd.
> > Tulsa, OK. 74146
> > printmusic@tulsaband.com
> > lowbrass@tulsaband.com
> > (918)663-3210
> > 1(800)564-1676
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: boiling your mouthpiece
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:08:33 -0500
> > From: "Robert Holland" <briar@chicagonet.net>
> > To: "Trb. List" <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > David Molter writes:
> >
> > > When I started playing trombone in the '60s, my brother -- also a 
> trombonist
> > > -- told me to boil the mouthpiece in water to loosen any crud and also to
> > > disinfect it, then celan it out with an MP brush. I've done this a 
> few times
> > > with e-bay purchases. Any harm done here?  I'm not talking about a long
> > > boil: maybe two or three minutes
> >
> > I can't say for certain if there is a finish on mouthpieces, but boiling
> > your mouthpiece seems to me inadviseable if there is and unnecessary if
> > there isn't. If you want a clean, polished surface, use a silver cleaner
> > or tarnish remover. The stuff I use, though admittedly hard to locate,
> > is Goddard's Long Shine Silver Foam.
> >
> > Disinfecting the mouthpiece is similarly an over-zealous thing. The
> > mouth is already the site of so much bacteria and bad stuff you wouldn't
> > even want to know about. But the body fends it off, for the most part,
> > without strain. Besides, the build-up on mouthpieces is usually stuff
> > that comes from ones mouth.
> >
> > Robert Holland
> > Briar Music Press
> > briar@chicagonet.net
> > http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/briar.htm
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Trombone Audition
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:23:03 -0500
> > From: "Dean McCarty" <bassbone@exp.net>
> > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > I fully understand everyone's position on the salaries for most orchestras
> > and pay for freelance musicians in general.  True, any one of us on this
> > list could rush out to the local fast food or pizza joint and make $40,000
> > to $80,000 as management.  But with that job comes no self worth or
> > enjoyment.  I am sure that a very small percentage of those people who are
> > in those positions truly enjoy their work... but the majority of them have
> > already started counting the days until retirement.
> >
> > I personnaly would take any orchestra job that paid $20,000 or more and 
> love
> > it.  Does that mean that I am selling out?  Not at all.  I know that most
> > orchestras run in the red or if they are lucky break even.  So if I were to
> > insist on more money, along with all of the other members the orchestra
> > would fall apart and then I would have no gig at all.
> >
> > If I wanted big money I would not be pursuing music as a career.  I do this
> > because I love it.  I have also recently turned my career towards 
> education,
> > which is a little more stable than freelancing and but in a different 
> way is
> > just as fulfilling.  Being a teacher... now there is a lucrative career
> > choice ; )
> >
> > We live in a society today that is money hungry... what happened to the 
> days
> > when families lived modestly and made a fair living.  We cannot compare
> > ourselves to the salaries gained by professional atheletes.  I applaud them
> > for finally getting what they deserve.  The sports owners in the past 
> made a
> > mint off a player's number or name while paying them minimum salary.
> > Athletes' careers are so short (sometimes one to three years), and a split
> > second injury can cripple them for life.  They deserve everything they get
> > in my mind.
> >
> > It is a shame that musicians that are masters at what they do have to 
> scrape
> > up $100 to $150 per night jobs to survive.  Then to supplement that income
> > that person must teach private lessons on the side.  Or, if you are one of
> > the lucky few you can land a major orchestra job and maybe make $50,000 to
> > $100,000... those are the VERY lucky FEW.  It is a shame... but that is
> > reality.  The money is just not there to give, and demandng more will only
> > fix the short term.  In the long run more orchestras will declare 
> bankruptcy
> > and then there will be another 70 - 90 musicans out of work each time.
> >
> > I'm not saying to get walked on... but this orchestra posting that started
> > this thread is offering a fair salary for what they can afford.  The 
> cost of
> > living there can't be too much.  Compare that to San Fransico, L.A., 
> Chicago
> > or New York where the salaries are much higher, but the cost of living in
> > turn is also.  Most symphony musicians have some sort of supplemental
> > income, because what they make playing in the orchestra just can't support
> > their family the way that they would like.  Is this fair?  It all 
> depends on
> > how you look at it.  We choose our paths... we also go onto this path of
> > music with the full knowledge that we will not get rich doing it.  Most
> > people with "regular" jobs envy us who do what we do... regardless of the
> > income, because we are doing what we love to do AND are getting paid 
> for it.
> >
> > We should be thankful for what we do have... our unions will make sure that
> > we are getting fair pay without putting our employers out of business...
> > that is their job.  I know that it is hard seeing fresh high school
> > graduates making more that world class musicians... If that is not fair in
> > your eyes... then go take one of those $28,000 management trainee jobs at
> > Taco Bell or McDonalds and see how long you stay with it... you'll quickly
> > go back to your $100 per night gig with a new appreciation.
> >
> > My $.02 worth (at least)
> > Dean McCarty
> > freelance trombonist, Houston area
> > Director of Bands, Kelly High School, Beaumont, Tx.
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Toy Trombones?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:07:07 -0500
> > From: "Richard@trombone.org" <richard@trombone.org>
> > To: Trombone List <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > If you know of a place that sells toys trombones, please reply to this
> > person.    Thank you.
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > ----------
> > From: R Petit <epetit@home.com>
> > To: Online Trombone Journal <otj@trombone.org>
> >
> > The following message was submitted via the OTJ Contact form:
> >
> > From: R Petit - epetit@home.com
> > Category: Other
> >
> > Message: I have a mentally disabled niece who adores the trombone.  Do you
> > know of any place that sells toy trombones, or a place to get an old
> > trombone donated to her.  She is 8 years old and sits near the trombones in
> > the orchestra every chance she gets.
> >
> > Sent on : 6/1/00 11:08:45 PM
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: RE: Semipros
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:24:12 -0700
> > From: jimandcat@juno.com
> > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> > CC: craig@acticalc.com
> >
> > Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> > >>>>I  honestly don't see any difference between somebody who makes a
> > living with:
> >
> > 60% from a guaranteed orchestra seat,
> >    20% private teaching,
> >    10% recording and
> >    10% gigging
> >
> > versus someone else who makes a living from:
> >    80% as an insurance salesman
> >    10% teaching private trombone lessons and
> >    10% playing gigs, recording, and arranging<<<<
> >
> > ***************
> > I do. The first guy's vocation (job) is a musician and part-time teacher.
> > The 2nd, a salesman. Sure the second guy has a nice hobby that leads to
> > some part-time work, but the first is fully involved in the business of
> > music.
> >
> > One of the problems of pay for freelance professionals as myself is that
> > the part-time musicians are willing to accept a gig for almost dirt pay
> > (or for free) undercutting the livelihood of the professional musician.
> > We both have mortgages, utility bills, cars, family expenses, etc., but
> > the musician depends on his income from music for those things, the
> > salesman doesn't. How would the insurance salesman like it if  hobby
> > accountants wrote policies for anyone for little or no commission?
> >
> > Please don't misunderstand me, I have a great deal of respect for anyone
> > who plays music well and I enjoy performing with real estate salesman,
> > doctors, lawyers, management types, etc. I just wish they would support
> > the full time musicians' position by refusing to "work" for less than the
> > going professional rate.
> >
> > It is kind of depressing to see golfers get millions while accomplished
> > artists exult over a few thousand. But that's America. What you can get
> > the masses to pay is what dictates the worth of an endeavor, not its
> > intrinsic value.
> >
> > Jim Prindle
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> > Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Trombone Audition
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:46:36 EDT
> > From: BassBonist@aol.com
> > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> >
> > Dean McCarty wrote:
> >
> > << I personally would take any orchestra job that paid $20,000 or more and
> > love
> >  it.  Does that mean that I am selling out?  Not at all.  I know that most
> >  orchestras run in the red or if they are lucky break even.  So if I 
> were to
> >  insist on more money, along with all of the other members the orchestra
> >  would fall apart and then I would have no gig at all. >>
> >
> > Dean, you are a very wise man.  Like a college instructor told me about
> > wanting to be a musician (over 21 years ago); "Don't go into music to make
> > money. There's none to be made in this business. Do it because it's the 
> only
> > thing you want to do."
> >
> > Matt Varho
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: 2 bell euph?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:03:58 -0400
> > From: Robert A Bates <rabbit@voyager.net>
> > To: send <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Why are there 2 bell euphs?
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Semipros
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:15:40 -0700
> > From: "Rod Ellard" <ellard@sprint.ca>
> > To: <jimandcat@juno.com>,
> >      "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Jim wrote:
> >
> > "One of the problems of pay for freelance professionals as myself is that
> > the part-time musicians are willing to accept a gig for almost dirt pay
> > (or for free) undercutting the livelihood of the professional musician.
> > We both have mortgages, utility bills, cars, family expenses, etc., but
> > the musician depends on his income from music for those things, the
> > salesman doesn't. How would the insurance salesman like it if  hobby
> > accountants wrote policies for anyone for little or no commission? "
> >
> > I am one of those part-time musicians who play for peanuts.  It's 
> strictly a
> > hobby and I probably don't earn enough to pay for my mouthpiece habit.
> >
> > I recently put a 13-piece band together to play a rich guy's birthday 
> party.
> > Except for the piano player, no one in the band (all part-timers) even 
> asked
> > how much they would be paid when I first asked them to play the gig and no
> > one (except the piano player) complained about or even commented on the
> > money.
> >
> > Am I undermining the livelihood of the working musician?  Most of the 
> gigs I
> > play wouldn't exist if the person hiring us had to pay AFM rates.  I expect
> > that more gigs are lost to some overweight geek and his disco-sound system
> > than are lost to a dozen part-time musicians making $50 each.
> >
> > And, I expect a heck of a lot of the support for the pros comes from the
> > part-timers.
> >
> > How would I like it if hobby lawyers litigated cases for peanuts?  I 
> compete
> > every day with my fellow professionals for clients.  Every business 
> competes
> > with other businesses.  Every small businessman knows this first 
> hand.  Even
> > some union people and middle managers know this.  You compete on price,
> > quality, service etc.  Do you really think professional musicians should be
> > exempt?
> >
> > Rod
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: 2 bell euph?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:16:21 PDT
> > From: "Aaron Roth" <bassrange@hotmail.com>
> > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> >
> > Probably the same reason that there are valve trombones, piccolo cornets,
> > and alto tubas.  Just something someone knew would enrich the history of
> > brass instruments.
> >      I heard Neal Corwell perform a composition/arrangement of his on 
> one of
> > those beasts; why can't I remember the name of it!!??  It was a combination
> > of Carnival of the Animals and that Carnival piece by Arban.  He got this
> > wonderful sound out of the big bell, occasionally punctuated by crass 
> little
> > barks shooting from the small bell.  It was great!
> >                                   -Aaron Roth
> >
> > >Why are there 2 bell euphs?
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Conn trombone
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:14:59 -0600
> > From: Earl Needham <kd5xb@amsat.org>
> > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> >
> >         Just saw an interesting trombone. It's a Conn 88H, slide is S/N 
> GB870017,
> > indicating mid-'60's, but the bell does's look quite as old.  In fact, the
> > bell makes me think Abilene.
> >
> >         The slide has been converted to have a removable 
> leadpipe.  Neat feature,
> > I think.
> >
> >         Anyway, any Conn experts out there that might have a thought or 
> two on
> > this slide/bell combo?
> >
> >         Thanks,
> >         Earl
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Semipros
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:43:53 -0500
> > From: "Jeff Albert" <jalbert@bellsouth.net>
> > To: <ellard@sprint.ca>,
> >      "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > You compete on price,
> > >quality, service etc.  Do you really think professional musicians 
> should be
> > >exempt?
> > >
> > >Rod
> > >
> > No, musicians should not be exempt.  Many purchasers of music want live
> > music, but don't care about the quality, only the price.  That is why 13
> > amatuers can play a rich guy's birthday party for less than he probably 
> paid
> > for his stereo system.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Question: Old Conn Connquest Trombone
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:51:34 -0500
> > From: Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
> > To: jgordon@jgordon.com, Trombone-l mailing <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> >
> > "Jerry P. Gordon" wrote:
> >
> > >  In my closet, in very good playing condition, is a Conn Connquest
> > > Trombone I played through high school.  I play other horns now, and
> > > I am curious about the this old one. According to resources I found
> > > on the Web, the 735,073 serial number suggests that it may have been
> > > manufactured in 1958-1959.  That is about all I know about it. Does
> > > anyone on the list know anything about this horn?  Was it considered
> > > a student horn or a professional one?  Is it worth anything?  Is it,
> > > as I suspect, a .500 bore horn?  Was it a good model?  A decent
> > > model?  A not-very-good model? Any insight would be appreciated.
> >
> > There were a number of models that were given the name 'Connquest'.
> > Some 21hs, 28hs, 38hs, and the 48h. The 48h Conn considered to be a
> > step up from the 6h Artist model - which indiciates that they thought
> > highly of them - more than just a student model.
> >
> > There may have been other Connstellations besides what I have listed.
> > According to the chart I have - which is the same one mentioned
> > recently by Sabutin - the 48h was the only one of those four models
> > made in the late "50s. It has a silver - zinc bell.
> >
> > Richard Corliss
> >
> >
> >
> > Richard Corliss
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: 2 bell euph?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 15:07:23 -0500
> > From: Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
> > To: bassrange@hotmail.com, Trombone-l mailing 
> <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > >
> > > >Why are there 2 bell euphs?
> > > >
> >
> > There a number of instruments that have besides a euphonium bell a more
> > cyllindrical baritone bell popular in England. I forget what these are 
> called.
> >
> > Richard Corliss
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: pay for play
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:29:40 -0400
> > From: Walter Barrett <wbarrett@bestweb.net>
> > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > List-
> > We can't change much about what orchestras pay players, because those
> > organizations are stuck in a time warp, and are also victims of
> > top-heavy bureaucracies and high overhead. What we can change is what we
> > ask for our services. Many times we underprice ourselves, and we
> > shouldn't, amateur, semi-pro, or full-timer.
> > 3 quick stories...
> >
> > 1) A local big band I used to play with had this older gent who fancied
> > himself a crooner sing with the band on a regular basis. Once, this gent
> > asked the band if we would consider playing at his friend's club "for
> > the door." I declined, saying that all my cabinets, closets, and rooms
> > already had doors, so I didn't need any more doors. The band ended up
> > doing the gig without me, and quit after the second week. The guys in
> > the band only made $7 the first week, and $5 the second. If it was Thad
> > & Mel's band, or another really great band, I would have done it in a NY
> > Minute, but for connections, exposure, and oh yeah, great music! That
> > was NOT the case with this band...
> >
> > 2) I got a call from a guy who was throwing a 25th Anniversary party for
> > his architecture firm. He wanted something out of the ordinary, the tuba
> > quartet that I play with. I quoted him a price of $900 for 1.5 hrs. One
> > of the other players said I charged too much and was freaking out. A day
> > later, the guy calls back "Okay, you guys are on!"
> >
> > 3) A lady called and wanted a brass quintet for a summer thing at the
> > local clubhouse. She wanted a bunch of Canadian Brass things, and was a
> > real micro-manager (pain-in-the-butt)! I quoted her $1000 for 1.5hrs,
> > figuring she'd gag on the price and go away. Without batting an eye, she
> > says "OK!" (I knew I should have asked for more...) It ended up being a
> > great gig, lots of fun.
> >
> > There are 2 morals to these tales- Don't take gigs where you lose money,
> > unless you'll make up the missing bread in other ways.
> > Ask for what your services are worth, and maybe a little more, many
> > times you'll get it!
> >
> > Walter Barrett
> > Yamaha Artist/Clinician
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: King 606
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:50:12 +0100
> > From: "Richard Barrett" <RBarrett@stockport37.freeserve.co.uk>
> > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Saw a King 606 for sale today at 175 Sterling.  My guess, from looking at
> > it, is that it is a student level horn.  Any body know anything?
> >
> > richard
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Fw: Cape Town Philharmonic Orchestra
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:11:04 +0200
> > From: "iti03590" <iti03590@mweb.co.za>
> > To: "Trombone List" <Trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> >
> > Friends,
> >
> > Hans asked me to post this to the list on his behalf.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: H du Plooy <hans@ananzi.co.za>
> > To: fouriedlm@mweb.co.za <fouriedlm@mweb.co.za>
> > Date: 01 July 2000 19:40 PM
> > Subject: Cape Town Philharmonic Orchestra
> >
> > >Dear Friends
> > >
> > >You might remember my post about the National Chamber Orchestra of SA 
> being
> > closed down at the end of May this year.  Some of you might also be aware
> > that the New Arts Philharmonic Orchestra of Pretoria SA (NAPOP) has 
> only one
> > week of life left, before they too will be closed.
> > >
> > >On Wednesday 28 June 2000, the Cape Town Philharmonic Orchestra was closed
> > down too.  Unlike with the other two orchestras, the members weren't
> > retrenched.  The company is being liquidated, and they are all jobless and
> > penniless.
> > >
> > >This is the fourth full time professional orchestra in South Africa that's
> > been closed down this year so far, the other one being the National 
> Symphony
> > Orchestra in January.  Now the only orchestra remaining is the Natal
> > Philharmonic Orchestra, in Durban, SA.  And their days too are numbered...
> > >
> > >I include the press release from CTPO
> > >
> > >Hans du Plooy
> > >hans@netactive.co.za
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>29 June 2000
> > >>
> > >>CAPE TOWN PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA TO CLOSE
> > >> Closure one
> > >>
> > >>After eight months of uncertainty, the Cape Town Philharmonic Orchestra,
> > >>recently acknowledged as the best in Africa, will close immediately.
> > >>
> > >>The company will go into liquidation.
> > >>
> > >>Kenneth Marcus, chairman of the board, said that in the past few months
> > >>almost every funding avenue has been tried and while some corporations
> > have
> > >>been sympathetic the money has not been forthcoming.
> > >>
> > >>"From the end of May, we have experienced severe cash flow problems, with
> > >>anticipated funding from various sources not forthcoming. It is also too
> > >>early to see returns from other initiatives, both in South Africa and
> > >>offshore, such as were implemented earlier in the year.
> > >>
> > >>"A new CE Cynthia Scarlett was appointed at the beginning of the 
> month and
> > >>while she was in the process of reducing the budget through the
> > consultative
> > >>process,  this has not been enough to convince corporates of the need to
> > >>support the orchestra.  The government has not given any indication of
> > >>future funding."
> > >>
> > >>The closure affects 77 musicians, principal conductor Bernhard 
> Gueller, 10
> > >>members of management, one artistic consultant and three orchestra
> > >>attendants.
> > >>
> > >> "We are sad that Cape Town has not been able to keep an orchestra,
> > despite
> > >>so much goodwill from the public and certain corporations three years ago
> > >>when R23 m was raised for the first few years to set up a orchestra to
> > serve
> > >>symphony, opera and ballet. This orchestra has also achieved so much in
> > >>education and in development of young musicians from the disadvantaged
> > >>communities.
> > >>
> > >> "We are equally sad that this leaves the country, which purports to be a
> > >>first world country and is indeed a world tourist destination, with only
> > one
> > >>symphony orchestra, in Durban, that itself may not be as secure as it
> > >>deserves to be. We are  undeniably sad that development of our children
> > >>through musical upliftment does not merit the same attention that sport
> > >>upliftment does.
> > >>
> > >>It is disquieting to learn of the tens if not hundreds of millions of
> > Rands
> > >>which have been pumped by Government into sport whilst culture languishes
> > in
> > >>terms of Government's assistance.
> > >>
> > >>South Africa is being 'dumbed down" instead of lifted up through the
> > >>enrichment that comes of cultural upliftment, raised hopes and fulfilling
> > >>aspirations. "
> > >>
> > >> Closure two
> > >>In short, says Marcus, Cape Town will lose 86 years of symphonic
> > tradition.
> > >>
> > >>In the three years since the CTPO was formed from the Cape Town Symphony
> > >>Orchestra and the former CAPAB opera and ballet orchestra, the Cape
> > >>Philharmonic, Cape Town and its environs have enjoyed :
> > >>
> > >>* 100 symphony concerts
> > >>* more than 250 sessions and performances for opera and ballet
> > >>* more than 300 education and development sessions
> > >>* free summer Waterfront concerts
> > >>* open-air concerts at Kirstenbosch
> > >>* professional symphonic pops concerts
> > >>* a start made on a youth orchestra from the disadvantaged communities
> > >>* a fusion of western and African music
> > >>* numerous hirings and performances at venues in and around the city.
> > >>
> > >>"Its musicians are the kernel of all teaching, they are also the main 
> part
> > >>of all chamber music. When they leave, and many may have to, more than
> > just
> > >>a professional orchestra will be lost. Tertiary music institutions will
> > also
> > >>be severely hampered in finding professional orchestral teachers.
> > >>
> > >>Kenneth Marcus stresses that this decision was taken after much anguish.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>INQUIRIES:  CAPE TOWN PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA
> > >> KENNETH MARCUS, CHAIRMAN, 082 554 2633
> > >>
> > >>SHIRLEY DE KOCK
> > >>
> > >>De Kock & Kerkhoff Communication Consultants
> > >>5 Upper Union Street
> > >>CAPE TOWN
> > >>
> > >>tel +27 21 424 5280
> > >>fax +27 21 424 5290
> > >>cell 083 675 3582
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------
> > >Brought to you by Ananzi Mail
> > >http://mail.ananzi.co.za
> > >
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: 2 bell euph?
> > Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 19:26:31 -0500
> > From: Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
> > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> >
> > At 02:03 PM 7/1/00 -0400, Robert A Bates wrote:
> > >Why are there 2 bell euphs?
> >
> > Almost all of the double bell euphoniums I have seen were built in the
> > period from 1885 to 1920.  I'm sure there could be many others, but that
> > seems to be the most active era for this instrument.  They were common
> > enough that some music from this period specified the use of the trombone
> > bell in certain passages.
> >
> > I don't know the driving forces behind this instrument.  However, I note
> > that this was a period of American life where the population was largely
> > rural.  One of the most popular forms of entertainment was the town band
> > playing in the park at the center town on a sunny Sunday afternoon.  It
> > stands to reason that most of these ensembles would have a continuous
> > challenge covering all the parts.  An instrument that could cover two parts
> > effectively would be very useful.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Craig
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: 2 bell euph?
> > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 19:56:41 -0500
> > From: "Eric Edwards" <bonearzt@mindspring.com>
> > To: "Trombone-L" <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>, <rabbit@voyager.net>
> >
> > The late Great Ashley Alexander used to play fantastic jazz solos
> > alternating between the two bells.
> > I saw him live many years ago and was blown away.
> > Eric Edwards
> > bonearzt@mindspring.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Robert A Bates <rabbit@voyager.net>
> > To: Trombones and related issues forum. <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 1:03 PM
> > Subject: 2 bell euph?
> >
> > > Why are there 2 bell euphs?
> > >
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Semipros
> > Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:04:45 -0700
> > From: jimandcat@juno.com
> > To: ellard@sprint.ca
> > CC: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> >
> > On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:15:40 -0700 "Rod Ellard" <ellard@sprint.ca> writes:
> > > I am one of those part-time musicians who play for peanuts.  It's
> > > strictly a
> > > hobby and I probably don't earn enough to pay for my mouthpiece
> > > habit.
> > >
> > > I recently put a 13-piece band together to play a rich guy's
> > > birthday party.
> > > Except for the piano player, no one in the band (all part-timers)
> > > even asked
> > > how much they would be paid when I first asked them to play the gig
> > > and no
> > > one (except the piano player) complained about or even commented on
> > > the
> > > money.
> >
> > Only the piano player had the guts to complain to you. My experience in
> > similar situations is that there is a lot of complaining that the
> > contractor doesn't hear. The other guys tend to be afraid they won't work
> > for him again.
> >
> > > Am I undermining the livelihood of the working musician?  Most of
> > > the gigs I
> > > play wouldn't exist if the person hiring us had to pay AFM rates.  I
> > > expect
> > > that more gigs are lost to some overweight geek and his disco-sound
> > > system
> > > than are lost to a dozen part-time musicians making $50 each.
> >
> > Yes, it is undermining the livelihood of the working musician. A
> > professional quartet or quintet would have played for the same money and
> > working musicians would be able to pay some of their bills. If the gigs
> > don't exist because someone won't pay the proper price, so be it. If they
> > want live professional music, they should pay the going rate.
> >
> > > And, I expect a heck of a lot of the support for the pros comes from
> > > the
> > > part-timers.
> >
> > And vice-versa.
> >
> > > How would I like it if hobby lawyers litigated cases for peanuts?  I
> > > compete
> > > every day with my fellow professionals for clients.  Every business
> > > competes
> > > with other businesses.  Every small businessman knows this first
> > > hand.  Even
> > > some union people and middle managers know this.  You compete on
> > > price,
> > > quality, service etc.  Do you really think professional musicians
> > > should be
> > > exempt?
> >
> > Apples and oranges. You are talking about a lawyer competing with a
> > musician, not musicians competing with each other. And if lawyers are
> > competing with each other, are you saying quality barristers will accept
> > a third of the going rate just to get a client? Besides, that's why
> > minimums are set by members of AFM locals. They are essentially saying,
> > "We won't work for less than this". The reality is many jobs pay
> > overscale.
> >
> > If your band is an ongoing community type group or a rehearsal band and
> > this kind of job just came along, I, as a professional musician, would
> > have no problem with you doing the job for lower pay. If you were
> > regularly soliciting  and contracting this work for this pay it would
> > definitely be unfair to the working musicians in your area.
> >
> > Jim Prindle
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> > Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>i


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:30 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:36:36 -0700
From: "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@lightspeed.net>
To: <jimandcat@juno.com>,
        "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
Message-ID: <014101bfe50c$dc1e3a40$04000005@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>Never saw that before all the dbl. bells I have played were all in Bb and I
seen over a dozen
______________________________________
Joe L. Norcross
Tuba:  Sequoia Winds and Visalia, CA British Brass Band
Tuba and Announcer, Kingsburg,CA, City Band
joetuba@lightspeed.net

-----Original Message-----
From: jimandcat@juno.com <jimandcat@juno.com>
To: Trombones and related issues forum. <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Date: Monday, July 03, 2000 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: 2 Bell Euph?


>Joe,
>I have played 4 different double bell euphs that when you use the 4th
>valve the open horn (out of the smaller bell) becomes the Eb overtone
>series, a fourth higher. A student brings one of these horns (Boston
>Music Co., 1887) to lessons each week. All of the instruments I've played
>were made before 1930.Those have been the only dbl bells I have ever
>seen. Since then, perhaps the tenor/baritone Bb bell combination came to
>be the standard.
>
>Jim
>
>On Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:10:33 -0700 "Joe L. Norcross"
><joetuba@lightspeed.net> writes:
>> Jim the bells switch, not the pitch.  BOTH BELLS ARE IN Bb
>> ______________________________________
>> Joe L. Norcross
>> Tuba:  Sequoia Winds and Visalia, CA British Brass Band
>> Tuba and Announcer, Kingsburg,CA, City Band
>> joetuba@lightspeed.net
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>


</x-charset>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:30 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:29:54 -0500
From: Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Pan American horns ?
Message-ID: <3960CD90.969AD43B@worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



sabutin@mindspring.com wrote:

>      Does anyone know what Pan American brand horns were all about ? Were
> they a student line of Conn's ?

Sab,

That is my understanding, they were made by Conn, as student line horns.

Eric Swanson


From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:30 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:33:05 PDT
From: "Aaron Roth" <bassrange@hotmail.com>
To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Pan American horns ?
Message-ID: <20000703173305.11143.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

<x-flowed>I've kind of got the idea that they're a little of both.  They seem to have 
been intended for the amateur who wasn't looking for specialized equipment, 
so being listed in Sears Roebuck would increase their availability to said 
amateur, rather like a parlor piano sought after by a piano hobbyist.  Of 
course, this is all below the level of today's amateurs, but maybe back in 
the 50's someone would bust out the ol' Pan for a couple of tunes once in a 
blue moon, maybe play along with the radio.
     I've found from the general consensus that these horns are about 
equivalent to a step-up student model...better than some, but not on a par 
with the precision lines.
                                    -Aaron Roth
                             Jumping out of his closet for a second



>    Hi...
>
>    Does anyone know what Pan American brand horns were all about ? Were
>they a student line of Conn's or just regular Conns stamped w/a different
>name to be sold through mail order stores like Sears Roebuck and Montgomery
>Ward ?
>
>    Thanks...
>
>    S.
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:30 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:46:09 -0500
From: Bob Koester <bkoester@fixbusinessdebt.com>
To: TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.EDU
Cc: Joan Blackhall <jblacha@mail.wwts.com>, Norma Butler <wesend4u@swbell.net>,
        Laura Caldwell <creativechoice@yahoo.com>,
Subject: ATTENTION - VIRUS ALERT
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000703124609.006f8d2c@mail.spidertel.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The "Pretty Park" virus has re-surfaced.  An associate of mine received it
today, fortunately his anti-virus software caught it in time.

As in the past...don't open this attachment.

Bob

_______________________
               bob koester
      mediation services, inc.
bkoester@fixbusinessdebt.com

From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:30 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:02:13 -0400
From: "Steve Beck" <becks@pilot.msu.edu>
To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve
Message-ID: <001601bfe521$3696d7c0$44300923@becks.cl.msu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>Justin, I own a Conn 88H SGX-CL.  The horn is just great.  I bought this
after test driving a dozen or so horns.

The Conn CL's all have an open wrap.  Their wrap, like that of all F
attachment horns I have ever measured is 0.562" bore.  This is true of the
closed wrap horns also.

The CL valve is slightly more open that the regular rotor, and has a nearly
straight shot through the valve.  Not as "true" as a Thayer but a nice
valve.  The CL's real advantage is in the smaller throw. You can pop in and
out of the F valve quicker that with a standard rotor.

All that said, I liked a lot of the other horns I tried also.  For the
money, you are probably playing the best horn out there. The Benge 165 is a
pro-line horn.  Its closed wrap is not much stuffier than the Benge 190 open
wrap, which admittedly is not the most open of wraps.

Sound-wise, outside of the valve, the Benge 165 I tried sounded very nice.
The valve was stuffy but after the work I have done the last few months I
wonder how much of that was just me.

A funny thing about owning the Conn.  My low range playing really improved.
However, now when I go back and play my closed wrapped "old" horn, I sound
much better on it also.  The closed wrap isn't so stuffy anymore.

If you want to save a grand or so, try this first.

Buy a Bass bone mouthpiece.  I use a Shilke 58.  Use this mouthpiece and
play at least 10 minutes a day in the low valve range.  I do scales from the
pedal notes to  the low tenor range.   This forces you to open up in the low
range.

After a couple of months I bet the Benge will sound acceptable on your
regular mouthpiece in the valve range.

I am not suggesting you pass up a new horn.  Just realize that 90% of the
improvement will be from within.

                            -Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Vibbard <jvibbard@hotmail.com>
To: Trombones and related issues forum. <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Date: Monday, July 03, 2000 11:22 AM
Subject: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve


>I'm sure this has probably already been mentioned or discussed but I've
been
>absent from the Listserve for a few months so I apologize if this is a
>repeat topic.
>
>My question is about the new conn 88H with the new Lindberg valve.  Does
>anyone own one of these yet or tried one out??  I'm currently looking into
>purchasing an upgrade from my intermediate Benge 65F (with a closed
>wrap..ugghh).  I'd appreciate any comments anyone has on the new horn.
>
>Justin Vibbard
>Lincoln, NE
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
>To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
>Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 1733
>Date: Mon,  3 Jul 2000 12:04:33
>
>
>     TROMBONE-L Digest 1733
>
>Topics covered in this issue include:
>
>   1) Re: Is this topic still "buzzing" or are those flies around a
>   dead horse?  :-)
> by sabutin@mindspring.com
>   2) Wages (was: trombone audition)
> by BassBonist@aol.com
>   3) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
> by jimandcat@juno.com
>   4) Re: pay for play
> by jimandcat@juno.com
>   5) Fw: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
> by jimandcat@juno.com
>   6) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
> by Jimkinkella1@aol.com
>   7) Re: Fw: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
> by Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
>   8) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
> by BassBonist@aol.com
>   9) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
> by "Edwin Miller" <edwin.miller@nashville.com>
>  10) Haddad Suite performance
> by Walter Barrett <wbarrett@bestweb.net>
>  11) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
> by "Richard L. Byrd" <rlb@trombone.org>
>  12) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
> by "ksdowdy" <ksdowdy@email.msn.com>
>  13) Re: self-worth
> by Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
>  14) Re: Question:  Old Conn Connquest Trombone
> by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
>  15) Re: self-worth
> by "Dean  McCarty" <bassbone@exp.net>
>  16) Fw:
> by "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
>  17) Re: Semipros
> by "Rod Ellard" <ellard@sprint.ca>
>  18) Re: pay for play
> by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." <trbnplyr@earthlink.net>
>  19) Re: Conn trombone
> by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
>  20) Re: Thayer Valve bumpers?
> by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
>  21) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
> by "Gary Maxwell" <gdmaxwell@lightspeed.net>
>  22) Re: King 606
> by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
>  23) OTJ Enews #8
> by "Richard Human, Jr." <richard@trombone.org>
>  24) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
> by "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@lightspeed.net>
><< message4.txt >>
><< message6.txt >>
><< message8.txt >>
><< message10.txt >>
><< message12.txt >>
><< message14.txt >>
><< message16.txt >>
><< message18.txt >>
><< message20.txt >>
><< message22.txt >>
><< message24.txt >>
><< message26.txt >>
><< message28.txt >>
><< message30.txt >>
><< message32.txt >>
><< message34.txt >>
><< message36.txt >>
><< message38.txt >>
><< message40.txt >>
><< message42.txt >>
><< message44.txt >>
><< message46.txt >>
><< message48.txt >>
><< message50.txt >>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>


</x-charset>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:30 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 15:28:06 -0500
From: Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000703152659.00a9c430@acticalc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

<x-flowed>At 09:08 AM 7/3/00 -0700, jimandcat@juno.com wrote:
>Joe,
>I have played 4 different double bell euphs that when you use the 4th
>valve the open horn (out of the smaller bell) becomes the Eb overtone
>series, a fourth higher. A student brings one of these horns (Boston
>Music Co., 1887) to lessons each week. All of the instruments I've played
>were made before 1930.Those have been the only dbl bells I have ever
>seen. Since then, perhaps the tenor/baritone Bb bell combination came to
>be the standard.
>
>Jim
A couple of months ago, I played a York that was estimated to be 1893.  It 
was definitely Bb on both bells.  I guess there was a little of everything 
out there.
Craig


</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:30 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:23:07 -0500
From: Chris Waage <basstbn@waageworks.com>
To: Trombone-L <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: MPCX Close-Out List
Message-ID: <v04220801b586b45b0b23@[24.29.189.23]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

<x-flowed>The following are the remaining mouthpieces in The Mouthpiece 
Exchange.  If you see something you're interested in, make an offer.

Small Shank Tenor Trombone:
   Bach 15C New York -- $40.00
   Bach 5GB w/Tenor Shank -- $50.00
   Bach 9 -- $20.00
   Bach 9 -- $20.00
   Conn 12C -- $25.00
   Bach 15C -- $20.00
   Generic 7C -- $15.00
   Conn 7C -- $20.00

Large Shank Tenor Trombone:
   Bach 6-1/2 A -- $35.00
   Bach 6-1/2 A -- $30.00
   Bach 4G -- $25.00
   Bach 4G -- $20.00
   Bach 4G Megatone -- $60.00
   Benge Marcellus -- $30.00
   Denis Wick 6BL (Gold) -- $90.00
   Yamaha Alain Trudel Signature -- $95.00
   Christian Lindberg 2CL - Gold -- $80.00
   Monette TT4 -- $120.00
   Marcinkiewicz Byron Peebles ET-1 -- $25.00
   Doug Elliott H8 Shank -- $20.00

Accessories:
   Wick Heavy Cup Adapter -- $25.00

Bass Trombone:
   Bach 3G -- $30.00
   Bach 1-1/2G -- $30.00
   Giardinelli 1GM -- $30.00
   Giardinelli 1G -- $25.00
   Herrick Funnel Cup Extra Deep -- $95.00
   Herrick Bass -- $75.00
   Yamaha 59 -- $25.00
   Yamaha 59 (open backbore) -- $20.00
   Yamaha 60 -- $25.00

Horn:
   Bach 7 Horn -- $15.00
   Bach 7 Horn -- $20.00
   Holton Farkas MDC Horn -- $20.00
   Holton Farkas MDC Horn -- $25.00
   Holton Farkas MDC Horn -- $25.00

Tuba:
   Coast Tuba -- $40.00
   Holton Galaxy Tuba -- $60.00
   Yamaha 60C4 -- $50.00

Terms:
Money order or cashier's check, drawn on a U.S. Bank for U.S. dollars 
only. Shipping anywhere in the U.S. is $4.00 per mouthpiece. Outside 
U.S., please e-mail for shipping costs.

_________________________________________
Chris Waage            chris@trombone.org
            Associate Webmaster
        The Online Trombone Journal
          http://www.trombone.org

</x-flowed>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:51:58 -0400
From: "Art Triggs" <artyart@bestweb.net>
To: <sabutin@mindspring.com>,
        "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Pan American horns ?
Message-ID: <02b001bfe538$ea685aa0$f6a315ac@bestweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>My understanding is that they were made by Conn as a intermediate/student
line - I had one 35 plus years ago when I started playing.
Art
----- Original Message -----
From: <sabutin@mindspring.com>
To: Trombones and related issues forum. <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:55 AM
Subject: Pan American horns ?


>    Hi...
>
>    Does anyone know what Pan American brand horns were all about ? Were
> they a student line of Conn's or just regular Conns stamped w/a different
> name to be sold through mail order stores like Sears Roebuck and
Montgomery
> Ward ?
>
>    Thanks...
>
>    S.
>
>


</x-charset>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 15:13:52 -0700
From: Galen Zinn <zinger@musician.org>
To: <sabutin@mindspring.com>
Cc: Trombone List <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Pan American horns ?
Message-ID: <B5865E30.2A22%zinger@musician.org>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

on 7/3/00 7:55 AM, sabutin@mindspring.com at sabutin@mindspring.com wrote:

> Hi...
> 
> Does anyone know what Pan American brand horns were all about ? Were
> they a student line of Conn's or just regular Conns stamped w/a different
> name to be sold through mail order stores like Sears Roebuck and Montgomery
> Ward ?
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> S.
> 

Sam,

I started my "career" on a Pan American horn in 1949. My parents did not buy
the horn from a mail order store like Sears Roebuck or Montgomery Ward. We
got it new from Wells of Music (probably the largest and most complete music
store in Denver at the time). I used to study privately under William Ericke
there. When my Dad backed the our car over the case 2-3 years later, we went
back down to Wells of Music and replaced it with a brand new Conn (rimless)
Voca-Bell model which I still have. Because Wells had the Conn franchise in
Denver can we make the assumption that Pan American was a student part of
the line? I know the Conn Voca Bell cost a lot more than the Pan American.
Boy, I'm sure glad my Dad ran over the Pan American; I got a brand new
"professional" quality horn out of the mishap. Waxing nostalgically, I wish
I still had the Pan American too though.

Galen Zinn        
E-mail: zinger@musician.org



From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:38:51 -0500
From: Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
To: Trombone-l mailing <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: A copper bell Conn
Message-ID: <396115FB.9FC09B00@astound.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Today I checked out a local store that sells used instuments and walked
out with a Conn horn with a  copper 7 1/2" bell. I became attached to it
because of its bright, brassy sound and it is very responsive. Can
anyone shed any light on this bell?

The slide has .485" bore and the name 'Director' on it. The inner slides
had a few dark spots and the outer slide has an obvious dent that makes
it almost nonfunctional. Have that dent taken out and it might be a very
good slide. The nice thing about Conns is that parts and interchangeable
and I thus have three slides I can use with this bell - a 4h, 6h, and
48h. At home I cleaned up the bell and it looks beautiful with almost no
dents or scratches.

I paid $116 for the horn.

I've run across only one other copper bell - an early 18h. The sound was
interesting but it had no tuning slide - that was in the slide - and the
slide was in very bad shape.

I'm interested in anyone that can tell me about copper bells in general
and this one in particular.

Richard Corliss





Richard Corliss






From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:42:04 -0700
From: "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@lightspeed.net>
To: <zinger@musician.org>,
        "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Pan American horns ?
Message-ID: <019201bfe53f$ea5c96a0$04000005@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>According to Margaret Banks of The Shrine to Music, Pan American was the
Conn student line for several years. See
http://www.usd.edu/~mbanks/index.html
______________________________________
Joe L. Norcross
Tuba:  Sequoia Winds and Visalia, CA British Brass Band
Tuba and Announcer, Kingsburg,CA, City Band
joetuba@lightspeed.net




</x-charset>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:45:33 EDT
From: BassBonist@aol.com
To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: A copper bell Conn
Message-ID: <9d.7a0aca7.26928dad@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

rcorliss writes:

<< 
 Today I checked out a local store that sells used instuments and walked
 out with a Conn horn with a  copper 7 1/2" bell. I became attached to it
 because of its bright, brassy sound and it is very responsive. Can
 anyone shed any light on this bell?
 
 The slide has .485" bore and the name 'Director' on it. >>

That is not a copper bell but a "Coprion" bell which is a coating applied to 
a regular yellow brass material.  Conn did make red brass bells but never on 
the Director.

Matt Varho

From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:53:15 -0500
From: Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
To: Art Triggs <artyart@bestweb.net>,
        Trombone-l mailing <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: A copper bell Conn
Message-ID: <3961357A.D7817BC3@astound.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Art Triggs wrote:

> The director was a student line of Conn's, they made a version with a Red
> Brass/Copper bell it is  a bright horn and really not that bad, a bargain
> for 116 bucks for sure - it's no 6h, but I would not turn my nose up at it,
> regards,
> Art Triggs

I realize that director is that. I was wondering whether it might be a red
brass bell  as opposed to a copper bell. Are you saying that it is either one
or the other, or both, or what?

Richard Corliss




From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:28:46 -0500
From: Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
To: BassBonist@aol.com, Trombone-l mailing <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: A copper bell Conn
Message-ID: <39613DCE.591E8BAF@astound.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


BassBonist@aol.com wrote:

> rcorliss writes:
>
> <<
>  Today I checked out a local store that sells used instuments and walked
>  out with a Conn horn with a  copper 7 1/2" bell. I became attached to it
>  because of its bright, brassy sound and it is very responsive. Can
>  anyone shed any light on this bell?
>
>  The slide has .485" bore and the name 'Director' on it. >>
>
> That is not a copper bell but a "Coprion" bell which is a coating applied to
> a regular yellow brass material.  Conn did make red brass bells but never on
> the Director.
>
> Matt Varho

Interesting. I have found references to these bells - 10h, 12h, and 18h have
these bells - but never knew what they were. Does anyone know that kind of
coating that is added? I assume that it must be something to take the place of
lacquer. I have two 4h bells - one with lacquer and silver-nickel supports and
the one without lacquer and normal supports. The one without lacquer is much
brighter. Maybe the additive here is designed to help maintain brightness.

In looking at the chart on Conns it would appear that this is an 18h since many
of them are Directors with .485" bores.

On the slide is the number L89135 - which I cannot relate to anything.

Richard Corliss






From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:28:36 EDT
From: Zemry@aol.com
To: jjlist@egroups.com, TROMBONE-L@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Scales to practice by
Message-ID: <1e.7744c5e.2692a5d4@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

For those of us who need work on our scales, you can print, for free, fairly 
comprehensive scales, (major, minor, chromatic and whole tones) from the 
following site: http://www.brassworld.co.uk/downloads/tromscales.pdf. It is 
well worth downloading. I've downloaded them and will go to Kinko's and bind 
them in a spiral notebook for probably less than $5.00. This is a worthwhile 
download!

******************************************************************************
*
Richard  Zemry Johnson, Jr.                               
Bossier Parish Community College Jazz Ensemble
Shreveport Metropolitan Concert Band
Impact Band playing "gumbo-funk"

"There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore."
J. J. Johnson                                                                 
                     
******************************************************************************
***



From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:16:08 -0300
From: doula@isn.net (Dale Sorensen)
To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
Subject: Help-Debussy-Michael Allen arr.
Message-ID: <v01530502b586dd19bddc@[216.129.42.200]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi.

I need to track down Debussy's "Suite from Children's Corner" for brass
ensemble, arranged by Michael W. Allen. I've tried some music stores who
list it in their catalogues but none of them have it in stock and I need it
soon. If you know how I might be able to contact Michael W.Allen (he's his
own publishing company), I would very much appreciate any information you
could give me.

Thank you,
Dale Sorensen



From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:43:03 -0500
From: Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
To: EPucci1023@aol.com, Trombone-l mailing <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: A copper bell Conn
Message-ID: <39616B57.7B3B2374@astound.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


EPucci1023@aol.com wrote:

> Richard:
>
> In the 1930's Conn patented a mehtod for electro plating a nearly pure copper
> bell right on to a mandrel.

For those not familiar with the lingo here, the mandrel is the mold on which the
bell is made. The Conn chart I have has the earliest Coprions to be 12hs  made in
1940. This suprises me because not very long ago my repairman gave me a bunch of
horns to check out that a school had gave him because they were just throwing
them away, and one was an 18h with what I think was a copper bell that was made
in about 1921. At that point in time they must have made copper bells the way
they make brass bells because I see that it is not referred to in the chart as a
Coprion bell.


> The coprion bell was used in trumpets and
> trombones. In the 1950's Conn devised a cheaper two pice Copper bell and used
> this on its student Director Line. This is what you have. Although  a student
> model ,except for the two pice bell, it is essetially the same as a 12h with
> a 485 bore. I have a10h which is the seamless copper bell in a .500 bore with
> lightweight slide and it is a great sounding and grest playing horn. Enjoy.
>
> Bob Pucci

I take it that your light slide is the same one that comes with the 48h. I have
the option of using one of  those if I desire.

Thanks. There seems to be significant confusion over exactly what these bells are
made of, but your story makes the most sense.

Richard Corliss



From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 22:57:32 -0700
From: David Oliver <dcoliver@accessnetusa.com>
To: jvibbard@hotmail.com
Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve
Message-ID: <39617CCC.1AC7B55D@accessnetusa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorry about getting to this a bit late (I moved on the weekend). I've just
become the proud owner of an almost new Lindberg Conn, and really love the horn.
For my first new (or nearly new) horn that I've purchased myself, it fits the
bill nicely.

What Steve Beck says is very true. I would even so far as to say that possibly
95% of the improvement you'll see is within you.

Keep in mind that the last I knew, the Lindberg listed for around $3100, and
they might sell in the $2300 range. I got mine for $1600 'ish, which is still
over a Yamaha 648R, standard Conn 88H, etc., in price.
I know what the Lindberg Conn gives me now, but even 1 year ago (after being
back for 2 years after a long break)  I wouldn't have been able appreciate it as
much as I do now.

I remember getting an "Elkhart" Conn 88H after one year of playing again, and
thinking that my '78 Blessing B88 (a decent horn) did very well side by side.
Once I started lessons and got better, my appreciation of the 88H only
increased, but it took time. Now I don't need that time.
Hope I didn't ramble too much.

BTW, the house I moved to has a vaulted ceiling and hardwood floors. I can't
wait to practice! I think I'll have some time for that in between installing
blinds and unpacking boxes.

David Oliver
Broomfield, Colorado  USA
Trombone, Denver Concert Band

Justin Vibbard wrote:

> I'm sure this has probably already been mentioned or discussed but I've been
> absent from the Listserve for a few months so I apologize if this is a
> repeat topic.
>
> My question is about the new conn 88H with the new Lindberg valve.  Does
> anyone own one of these yet or tried one out??  I'm currently looking into
> purchasing an upgrade from my intermediate Benge 65F (with a closed
> wrap..ugghh).  I'd appreciate any comments anyone has on the new horn.
>
> Justin Vibbard
> Lincoln, NE
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 1733
> Date: Mon,  3 Jul 2000 12:04:33
>
>                             TROMBONE-L Digest 1733
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
>    1) Re: Is this topic still "buzzing" or are those flies around a
>    dead horse?  :-)
>         by sabutin@mindspring.com
>    2) Wages (was: trombone audition)
>         by BassBonist@aol.com
>    3) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
>         by jimandcat@juno.com
>    4) Re: pay for play
>         by jimandcat@juno.com
>    5) Fw: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
>         by jimandcat@juno.com
>    6) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
>         by Jimkinkella1@aol.com
>    7) Re: Fw: Re: 2 Bell Euph?
>         by Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
>    8) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
>         by BassBonist@aol.com
>    9) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
>         by "Edwin Miller" <edwin.miller@nashville.com>
>   10) Haddad Suite performance
>         by Walter Barrett <wbarrett@bestweb.net>
>   11) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
>         by "Richard L. Byrd" <rlb@trombone.org>
>   12) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
>         by "ksdowdy" <ksdowdy@email.msn.com>
>   13) Re: self-worth
>         by Dave Molter <kingbone@earthlink.net>
>   14) Re: Question:  Old Conn Connquest Trombone
>         by Richard L Corliss <rcorliss@astound.net>
>   15) Re: self-worth
>         by "Dean  McCarty" <bassbone@exp.net>
>   16) Fw:
>         by "Tom Izzo" <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com>
>   17) Re: Semipros
>         by "Rod Ellard" <ellard@sprint.ca>
>   18) Re: pay for play
>         by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." <trbnplyr@earthlink.net>
>   19) Re: Conn trombone
>         by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
>   20) Re: Thayer Valve bumpers?
>         by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
>   21) Re: 2 Bell Euph?
>         by "Gary Maxwell" <gdmaxwell@lightspeed.net>
>   22) Re: King 606
>         by Candice & Eric Swanson <swansonmacmail@worldnet.att.net>
>   23) OTJ Enews #8
>         by "Richard Human, Jr." <richard@trombone.org>
>   24) Re: Wages (was: trombone audition)
>         by "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@lightspeed.net>
> << message4.txt >>
> << message6.txt >>
> << message8.txt >>
> << message10.txt >>
> << message12.txt >>
> << message14.txt >>
> << message16.txt >>
> << message18.txt >>
> << message20.txt >>
> << message22.txt >>
> << message24.txt >>
> << message26.txt >>
> << message28.txt >>
> << message30.txt >>
> << message32.txt >>
> << message34.txt >>
> << message36.txt >>
> << message38.txt >>
> << message40.txt >>
> << message42.txt >>
> << message44.txt >>
> << message46.txt >>
> << message48.txt >>
> << message50.txt >>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:00:02 -0700
From: David Oliver <dcoliver@accessnetusa.com>
To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Conn 88H w/Lindberg valve (oops)
Message-ID: <39617D62.79652542@accessnetusa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorry, I forgot to purge all of that digest stuff from my reply.

David
Broomfield, CO USA

David Oliver wrote:

> Sorry about getting to this a bit late (I moved on the weekend). I've just
> become the proud owner of an almost new Lindberg Conn, and really love the horn.
> For my first new (or nearly new) horn that I've purchased myself, it fits the
> bill nicely.
>
> What Steve Beck says is very true. I would even so far as to say that possibly
> 95% of the improvement you'll see is within you.
>
> Keep in mind that the last I knew, the Lindberg listed for around $3100, and
> they might sell in the $2300 range. I got mine for $1600 'ish, which is still
> over a Yamaha 648R, standard Conn 88H, etc., in price.
> I know what the Lindberg Conn gives me now, but even 1 year ago (after being
> back for 2 years after a long break)  I wouldn't have been able appreciate it as
> much as I do now.
>
> I remember getting an "Elkhart" Conn 88H after one year of playing again, and
> thinking that my '78 Blessing B88 (a decent horn) did very well side by side.
> Once I started lessons and got better, my appreciation of the 88H only
> increased, but it took time. Now I don't need that time.
> Hope I didn't ramble too much.
>
> BTW, the house I moved to has a vaulted ceiling and hardwood floors. I can't
> wait to practice! I think I'll have some time for that in between installing
> blinds and unpacking boxes.
>
> David Oliver
> Broomfield, Colorado  USA
> Trombone, Denver Concert Band
>
> Justin Vibbard wrote:
>
> > I'm sure this has probably already been mentioned or discussed but I've been
> > absent from the Listserve for a few months so I apologize if this is a
> > repeat topic.
> >
> > My question is about the new conn 88H with the new Lindberg valve.  Does
> > anyone own one of these yet or tried one out??  I'm currently looking into
> > purchasing an upgrade from my intermediate Benge 65F (with a closed
> > wrap..ugghh).  I'd appreciate any comments anyone has on the new horn.
> >
> > Justin Vibbard
> > Lincoln, NE
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
> > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
> > Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 1733
> > Date: Mon,  3 Jul 2000 12:04:33
> >
> >                             TROMBONE-L Digest 1733..


From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:32:45 -0700
From: Galen Zinn <zinger@musician.org>
To: <Zemry@aol.com>
Cc: Trombone List <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Scales to practice by
Message-ID: <B586D31C.2A34%zinger@musician.org>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

on 7/3/00 7:28 PM, Zemry@aol.com at Zemry@aol.com wrote:

> For those of us who need work on our scales, you can print, for free, fairly
> comprehensive scales, (major, minor, chromatic and whole tones) from the
> following site: http://www.brassworld.co.uk/downloads/tromscales.pdf. It is
> well worth downloading. I've downloaded them and will go to Kinko's and bind
> them in a spiral notebook for probably less than $5.00. This is a worthwhile
> download!
> 
> ******************************************************************************
> *
> Richard  Zemry Johnson, Jr.
> Bossier Parish Community College Jazz Ensemble
> Shreveport Metropolitan Concert Band
> Impact Band playing "gumbo-funk"
> 
> "There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore."
> J. J. Johnson    
> 
> ******************************************************************************
> ***
> 
> 

Richard,

You might want to check out the scales in the Buddy Baker method.


Galen Zinn        
E-mail: zinger@musician.org



From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:06:49 -0500
From: "Adolphus Sprott" <weslanke@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Trombone-L" <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: self-worth
Message-ID: <015301bfe5eb$0ab25d80$93e0490c@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>So.... just how much should we charge for our services.  Just out of
curiosity, b/c I don't know the correct wage.  When someone calls me to
play, I want to be able to say, I charge $____/hr.  What's a good number to
put in the blank?

Weston Sprott
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Parmerlee <craig@acticalc.com>
To: Trombones and related issues forum. <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Date: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: self-worth


>At 10:08 PM 7/2/00 -0500, Dean  McCarty wrote:
>>Dave,  Good points... but my point may have been misconstrued.  I have
>>worked fast food and have had family in management.  The point that I
meant
>>to convey is that even though someone could make $40,000 to $80,000 being
a
>>fast food or pizza joint manager that does not necessarily mean that they
>>are happy with their job.  They are like most people... they wake up go to
>>work and come home, day in and day out.  They yearn for their vacation
time
>>and can't wait for retirement.  Is this a bad thing...  no, it is reality.
>>I think that if a poll was taken most people would maybe like the pay that
>>they receive, but are dissatisfied with their job.  I do realize that this
>>is not a universal truth, nor do I intend it to be a blanket statement.
>
>Dean,
>
>I think I'd have to come down on Dave's side here too.  I am not at all
>convinced that full-time musicians are happier on average than MacDonald's
>managers.  I had the occasion several times in the past to make
>presentations on the premises of Hamburger University (MacD's management
>training facility outside Chicago).  BTW, the architecture is fabulous --
>straight out of the Frank Lloyd Wright school, if anybody is interested in
>that.  Anyway, in every case, in adjoining rooms were managers learning
>about how to do their job well.  They were having so much fun that it often
>made it difficult to keep my presentation on track.
>
>Hamburgers and art seem to be pretty far afield.  However, I think the good
>MacD managers derive great satisfaction in pleasing customers and being a
>role model for the youngsters under their charge.
>
>In contrast, I know quite a few "professional" musicians that haven't
>enjoyed a minute of their careers for decades.  It is sad.  I think
>happiness has to come from within the person.  One career doesn't lead to
>greater happiness than another, IMHO.  Heck, I know a guy who works for the
>sewage treatment plant and couldn't be more enthusiastic about the work he
>is doing.
>
>The view from my picture window.
>Craig
>
>


</x-charset>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:04:44 -0500
From: "Adolphus Sprott" <weslanke@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Trombone-L" <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Stephen Lange
Message-ID: <015201bfe5eb$03daa800$93e0490c@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>I need to contact Stephen Lange.  If anyone has his phone number or email
address it would be greatly appreciated.  Please respond privately.

Weston Sprott


</x-charset>
From ???@??? Wed Jul 05 08:24:31 2000
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 03:07:06 -0500
From: "Jeff Albert" <jalbert@bellsouth.net>
To: "Adolphus Sprott" <weslanke@worldnet.att.net>,
        "Trombones and related issues forum." <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: self-worth
Message-ID: <002401bfe58e$d9aa5a00$b7d64fd8@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<x-charset iso-8859-1>
-----Original Message-----
From: Adolphus Sprott <weslanke@worldnet.att.net>
To: Trombones and related issues forum. <trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu>
Date: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: self-worth


>So.... just how much should we charge for our services.  Just out of
>curiosity, b/c I don't know the correct wage.  When someone calls me to
>play, I want to be able to say, I charge $____/hr.  What's a good number to
>put in the blank?
>
>Weston Sprott

A good number varies from gig to gig and city to city.  To start out find
out what your local union scale is and double it.  I am only halfway kidding
when I say that.  I try not to think in terms of "hourly" wages.  There are
many three hour gigs that are much less painful than some thirty minute
ones.  (Please read the painful remark as an attempt at humor.  I don't want
to start the "I do this for a living so it appears I have lost all joy of
music" thread again.)

 Generally, for a "work" date, I try not to leave my house for less than
$100.  That number is higher in many markets, I'm sure, just as it may be
lower in others.  Try to find out what the going rate is, and don't lowball
it.  That is why I suggested checking out the union scale.  Be careful with
that however, because it is not unheard of that union bandleaders in some
locals try to keep the scale low, to keep their profit margins up.  I'm not
accusibg anyone, that is just a rumor that I heard.

All of that being said, there are "art" gigs (my term) that I do for the $20
range, because I enjoy the music, and I realize that the economics of an 8
piece band on a Tuesday with 20 people paying 5 bucks to get in doesn't add
up to big money.  I do those gigs for the music.  If I have to wear a tux,
or play "I will survive" or "In the Mood" I need to see Ben Franklin (at
least) at the end of the night.  Don't get me wrong, i love my job, if I
didn't I'd be one of those Mickey D's managers we have been talking about.

Sorry, I started rambling.  Do the math.  If a couple spent $2000 on a
wedding cake, they can spend that much on a band.  A casino is a business
where people walk in and give them money, I won't work there for $75.  If I
want to play really weird improvisational music, and only 30 people show up,
and there are 16 of us in the band, I take my $12 and enjoy the music.

Jeff Albert

www.musiciansvillage.com/jeffalbert


</x-charset>