TROMBONE-L Digest 1660 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Doug Elliot hardware by Jim Jaffe 2) RE: CONN 88H slide problems by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 3) vacation by "Todd Slothower" 4) Re: Stupid question? by Listmonitor Trombone-L 5) RE: sticky slides by David Molter 6) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by Craig Parmerlee 7) MiniDisc Output? by "John Lavoie" 8) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by BassBonist@aol.com 9) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by Earl Needham 10) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by Chris Waage 11) Re: MiniDisc Output? by "John McVey" 12) Meet Mr. Roberts by BassBonist@aol.com 13) RE: CONN 88H slide problems by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 14) Brass Warm-Up Space by Peter Ellefson 15) Re: Stupid question? by gonzalo 16) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by "Christopher D. Truchon" 17) RE: CONN 88H slide problems by "Richardson, Tim" 18) Fwd: CONN 88H slide problems by REOnofreyJ@aol.com 19) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by Earl Needham 20) RE: CONN 88H slide problems by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 21) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by Craig Parmerlee 22) RE: CONN 88H slide problems by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 23) RE: Stupid question? by Thomas Cox 24) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by Chris Waage 25) King by "Douglas Kilen" 26) Re: King by Earl Needham 27) Osmun Music Phone#? by Charles 28) Re: Osmun Music Phone#? by Mike Loewen 29) RE: Local vs Mail Order by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 30) RE: Local vs Mail Order by TonyC789@aol.com 31) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by "Anthony J. Heins" 32) RE: Local vs Mail Order by Chris Waage 33) RE: Local vs Mail Order by Earl Needham 34) Re: Brass Warm-Up Space by "Tom Izzo" 35) Re: Brass Warm-Up Space by BassBonist@aol.com 36) Re: CONN 88H slide problems by Gary Greenhoe 37) Re: Brass Warm-Up Space by Harykoz@aol.com 38) Re: Parrot Trombones by "Kathy Green" 39) Re: Brass Warm-Up Space by Earl Needham 40) Re: King by Earl Needham 41) Re: King by Eric and Candice Swanson 42) Slides by "Eric Edwards" 43) RE: Doug Elliott Bass M'Piece For Sale by "Brandon C. Moodie" 44) Re: Brass Warm-Up Space by Chris Waage 45) Re: Parrot Trombones by BassBonist@aol.com 46) Trombone package by Tmazzocchi@aol.com From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:51 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:00:31 -0700 From: Jim Jaffe To: Joseph Frye , Trombone Server Subject: RE: Doug Elliot hardware Message-ID: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Joseph, Depends on what you are doing. I think an H cup is a bit too big for a lot of high range playing. Some guys do use them up high, though. I am using an 88H and use a G cup when playing 1st and an H cup when playing 2nd. The H cup up high does not seem to have very much bite to it (lower in harmonics) and hence I have to work harder which is where your endurance problems may be coming from. What kind of endurance problems are you having? If they are in the high range you should probably have some good high range playing in your routine like Rochut in tenor clef or Maxted. Don't overdo it, though. There has been lots of discussion on the listserver about this. Also, mouth and teeth structures are different so you may want to be on a different rim. I have almost no endurance on a 6 1/2AL! Just hits me wrong. I find a standard 101 the most comfortable. I play alto on either a 101 or a 100 depending on what I am doing. I trill slightly better on the 101 but find it easier to nail the entrances and high F and E in Beethoven #5 on the 100 rim. Some guys like the narrow rim or sharp rims, wide rims etc. Sharp rims will give better articulation at the expense of endurance. So, it is a good idea to try some different rims varying both size and shape. Also, get someone to look at your embouchure when you are playing high. Be careful not to press on the mouthpiece. We all do in the high range to a small extent to make a good seal but over doing it cuts off the circulation and although you can start out playing high, you just don't last. Doing exercises playing in the high range and being cognizant of keeping the lightest mouthpiece pressure possible can be very helpful. Make sure you are using the muscles in your lips and not tightening the rest of your face or chin, etc. This is a very common problem. Your cheeks and under your chin should be flabby. (Mine are already pretty flabby!). Also, make sure you are not making up for lack of air with your embouchure!!!!!! Hope I helped. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Frye [mailto:jfrye@utkux.utcc.utk.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 10:04 AM > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: Doug Elliot hardware > > > I hae been playing for three years on a doug ellliot LT100 rim, H > cup, and H8 > shank with my Bach 42BO. I'm a tenor and alto player strictly, > and do not play > much in the low register. I was told by a professor that my oral > cavity was > too small to play trombone, and that I needed to play a larger > mouthpiece to > get the "trombone" sound. I am begining to think though that the > H cup may be > a bit too large for me. How can you tell if a mouthpiece is > indeed to much. I > have no problem hitting high notes at all or low notes, and I > practice three > hours each day and, but can't shake the feeling that endurance > problems may be > linked to my equipment. Any comments would be more than welcome. > > > Joseph > > Joseph Frye > Tenor and Alto Trombone > University of Tennessee, Knoxville > 572nd Air National Guard Band > > From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:51 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:40:46 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > At 10:13 PM 4/18/00 -0500, Eric Edwards wrote: > > regarding slide problems, I have yet to find a slide that works nicely > >straight out of the box!! But as you try horns, try to find the one that > >plays the way you want. The slide can usually be brought up to > >acceptability by any competent repairman. > To which Craig replied: > At the risk of sounding like a jerk, there is something wrong here. Yes, > a > slide should improve a little as you go through break-in, but there should > > not be any endemic problems that require a slide technician to fix. I > have > bought three slides from Edwards in the last 14 months and they are all > perfect. For the money you have to spend on the UMI horns, you should > expect nothing less than perfection, straight out of the box. > You don't sound like a jerk at all. I think that having to have a brand new slide worked on by a repairman is just plain bulls**t! This situation is a combination of sloppy quality control at the factory combined with shoddy dealers. For the markup that many dealers charge, you would think that they could make sure the slide is perfect before it leaves the store. If all they are going to do is hand you a horn in a wrapper for you to send to Dr. Upchurch, you might as well buy from WW&BW! It is pretty disgusting to me to have a student come to me with a brand new horn that has not even been cleaned prior to being sold. All this "service" and retail pricing, too. This is just one of the many reasons that I have absolutely no pangs of conscience when I hand a student's parents a WW&BW or Giardinelli catalog. Think about it, would any of us buy a new car if the first thing that we needed to do was have it towed to a mechanic so that it would run? So, why should we have to take a new trombone to a repairman to get the slide to work? Granted, not all dealers are this sloppy. So if you have a good one around you, buy from them. But I would never walk out of a dealership with a new trombone that was not playable (to my standards). If you are going to accept a less than adequate product, at least buy it from the lowest bidder. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:51 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:54:51 -0500 From: "Todd Slothower" To: Subject: vacation Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Un-sub Trombone-L Todd Slothower From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:51 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:54:53 -0500 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Stupid question? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Erik- For some reason, the listprocessor computer rejected this message. However, I can answer it. The slides are all stamped with the generic model number, i.e., 36 for a Bach .525 tenor, 42 for a Bach .547 tenor, and 50 for a Bach .562 bass. The bell section carries the model designator: no letter indicates no F-attachment B indicates traditional-wrap BO indicates open-wrap C indicates a convertable open-wrap attachment. (convertable to a straight tenor). T indicates Thayer Valve K indicates Balanced Valve (Bach's answer to the Thayer before they could buy Thayers). Other designators you might run into: G indicates gold brass bell LT indicates lightweight slide Z indicates sterling-plus (silver) bell There's probably a few others that I don't know, but those are the main ones. LM >From: "Berggren, Erik" >To: "'Trombone-L'" >Subject: Stupid question? >Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:21:10 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by >po.missouri.edu id IAA08635 > >The old cliché that "there is no such thing as a stupid question" may or may >not be true, but the question I have sure seems to qualify as one! I'll go >ahead and ask anyway. Don't hold back on the content of your responses now, >simply to spare my fragile self-esteem! Let 'em fly! > >What is the difference between a Bach 36 and a 36B? Am I correct in >assuming that a 36BO would be with an open wrap F-attachment. Does a 36B, >then, have a closed wrap F-attachment? That doesn't seem to be the case >since the "Model 36" stamped on the slide section of the one I've owned for >25+ years came with a closed wrap F-attachment. > >Thanks, in advance, for your responses! > >P.S. - I've sure enjoyed the threads regarding oiling the rotor! I've been >lubricating mine without ever having disassembling it, and think I will >continue that way. The action has always been super! --------------------------------------- trombone-l digest archives and useful trombone-l information are available at http://www.cjnetworks.com/~tsks From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:52 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:59:50 -0400 (EDT) From: David Molter To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: sticky slides Message-ID: <384380717.956152790638.JavaMail.root@web112-wrb.mail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As has been pointed out by other listers, if your slide sticks in 2nd and 3rd positions, the problem usually is really at the stockings or in the outer slide tubes where they meet the stockings when the lside is extended to 2nd or 3rd -- unless there's a bend or dent in the inner slide tubes in 2nd or 3rd positions. I've found that, 9 times out of 10 on almost all brands of trombones, problems develop more often in 2nd and 3rd positions. Tolerances also play a role. Best I can recommend is that if you're using a cream, try using Slide-O-Mix after careful cleaning of inner and outer slides. SOM usually will work better on slides with tighter tolerances. And don't use a lot of whatever it is you use to lubricate. Several people recommend using a tissue to remove residue after you apply a cream. the key is, if you can see anything on the inner tubes, you've used too much. As for slide working well right out of the box, I've bought only one new trombone in the last two years -- a Blessing B88O. the slide worked fine right out of the box ... for about two days. Then it gummed up and, despite my cleaning it with everything from Wright's silver polish to toothpaste, it never got any better. I finally took it to have it cleaned and aligned locally and it worked great after that with SOM. I wondered aloud at the repair shop if I might call Blessing to see if they'd underwrite at least part of the alignment. Their advice: forget it, because the manufacturer probably will claim that you or someone else who demoed the horn whacked the slide. If you're buying a new horn locally, try to mix and match slides. And try to negotiate afreee alignment, cleaning if the slide hangs up after afew hours or a few days. There should be no "break-in" period, but it's quite possible that alignment wasn't right at the factory. If you're buying online, try to get a retur! n privilege if the horn doesn't live up to your specs. If you can't live with the delay in shipping entailed in buying online, bite the bullet and pay the extra bucks to have local service. I've played almost evey brand and every level of horn over the past 18 months and if there's one thing in common among them, it's that they have nothing in common. Slides vary from horn to horn. I bought a year-old Bach 36BO three months ago and the slide is the best I've ever played -- and I haven't cleaned it at all. I have a two-year-old King 3B-F that had I had serviced and the slide worked well for about six months. Now it hangs up in 2nd no matter what I do to clean it myself. I also have a 30-year-old Olds bass with tuning in the slide that I bought used. I haven't touched the slide and it works fine although it sounds gritty. Also have an older King 5B that works great with SOM but hangs up with Trombotine. It has dents in both inner slide tubes around 2nd position, but I don't play it enough to get it fixed right now, and the hangup isn't sufficient to worry about. My son's Yamaha student 354 has a good but not great slide. Bought used, it has never been serviced othe! r than home cleaning. Worst slide I ever had was on a used Conn Connquest, but the plating was shot and I didn't fel like paying $200 to have the slide fixed because I paid only $150 for the horn. So I sold that one. Finally, I had an Olds Super with the octagonal sinner tubes and it worked well but not so amazingly well that I kept the horn. This one liked Trombotine. My advice: be really careful in buying and maintaining your horn. I can't believe that any professioanl can dent a tuning slide, but I can see how someone walking by your horn while it's on a stand, of an accidental encounter with a music stand can dent the slide or twist it even without your knowing. And keep the thing clean! How long does it take to wash out a slide once a week? Every time I let someone else play one of my horns, they always comment on how great the slide is. I have to believe it's because I maintain them and work to get them right in the first place. Dave Molter Pittsburgh, PA From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:52 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:13:23 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: JoshuaSL@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000419090820.00b14b80@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:22 AM 4/19/00 -0400, JoshuaSL@aol.com wrote: >That is why Edwards/Shires/Lawler/etc. horns seem to always have excellent >slides. Would you pay an extra grand for a horn when they couldn't even get >the slide alignment right? I don't know about Shires' or Lawler's prices, but I believe Edwards still charges something like $650 for their slides whereas UMI want $900 for theirs. I guess an off-the shelf 88H is a few hundred dollars less than an Edwards .547 horn, but when you look at the prices UMI dealers want for the CL horns, especially with sterling, they are asking the same kind of money that the lower volume guys do. If I dropped this kind of jack on a horn, I wouldn't be the slightest bit entertained by a slide with any imperfections whatsoever. Food for thought. Craig From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:53 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:34:49 -0400 From: "John Lavoie" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: MiniDisc Output? Message-ID: <59DD988E9C514D11DA7F0005B8E841F4@webmaster.Trombonegod.zzn.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone asked about connecting a portable minidisc player to their computer a few months ago. Can you tell me what you finally settled on? Or if anyone else has experience doing this, feel free to chime in (like I really had to ask for that on this list?) JOhn John Lavoie Sophomore, Ithaca College Bass Trombone, Computer Science Fight the DMCA!!! - http://www.eff.org ____________________________________________________________ Get your 100MB FREE Internet storage! Sign up now - http://www.netdrive.com/?ao=zzn From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:53 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:39:00 EDT From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << It is pretty disgusting to me to have a student come to me with a brand new horn that has not even been cleaned prior to being sold. All this "service" and retail pricing, too. This is just one of the many reasons that I have absolutely no pangs of conscience when I hand a student's parents a WW&BW or Giardinelli catalog. >> It's too bad the Mom and pop stores don't read the current discussion on the Trombone-L; it would give them a clue about what they should be doing to keep their business from going to the catalogs! Matt Varho From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:58 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:57:54 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: BassBonist@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000419085032.00a26210@yucca.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:39 AM 4/19/00 -0400, BassBonist@aol.com wrote: ><< It is pretty > disgusting to me to have a student come to me with a brand new horn that has > not even been cleaned prior to being sold. All this "service" and retail > pricing, too. This is just one of the many reasons that I have absolutely > no pangs of conscience when I hand a student's parents a WW&BW or > Giardinelli catalog. >> > >It's too bad the Mom and pop stores don't read the current discussion on the >Trombone-L; We do! And not just me, either -- there are several on the list, including the store where I work -- Tarpley Music in Clovis, New Mexico. > it would give them a clue about what they should be doing to keep >their business from going to the catalogs! We do that, too... You know what? I used do business with Giardinelli. He was a heckuva guy, and gave great service. But the mail-order business has never really treated me "right", and I don't deal with them any more. Now, I invite anybody to give us a call at our store and see if we can make a deal on whatever. I bet we can. The only thing is that we are only local in Clovis, New Mexico, Amarillo, Texas, Lubbock, Texas, Pampa, Texas, and Wichita Falls, Texas. I like going into local stores as much as anybody. Especially ham radio (I'm KD5XB). But you can't hardly find a local, "mom & pop" ham radio store ANYWHERE. If I want to find one, there's a REALLY small one in Lubbock, but the next nearest that I know if is in Las Vegas -- maybe 800 miles away? Why? Mail order killed them all! Drop-shipping is a bunch cheaper than keeping inventory... 7 3 Uh -- I mean -- later, Earl Tarpley Music Company Clovis, New Mexico USA 1-800-477-2316 http://www.tarpleymusic.com/ Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:58 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:57:02 -0500 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ><< It is pretty > disgusting to me to have a student come to me with a brand new horn that has > not even been cleaned prior to being sold. All this "service" and retail > pricing, too. This is just one of the many reasons that I have absolutely > no pangs of conscience when I hand a student's parents a WW&BW or > Giardinelli catalog. >> > >It's too bad the Mom and pop stores don't read the current discussion on the >Trombone-L; it would give them a clue about what they should be doing to keep >their business from going to the catalogs! > >Matt Varho We have a store in the KC area (Meyer Music) which is doing just that - they realize that they probably can't compete price-wise with the major mail-order music stores, so they're going for the service side. All instruments come with two years free maintenance. Every instrument is play-tested by their repair staff, and they make sure that the instrument is in excellent condition before it goes to the buyer. Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com Visit The Mouthpiece Exchange at http://www.waageworks.com _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:58 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:07:49 -0400 From: "John McVey" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: MiniDisc Output? Message-ID: <852568C6.00530861.00@m-ms03.frb.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline John, I use a hardware/software package called Dazzle DVC (Digital Video Creator). It uses a small 8" tower that sits beside your monitor and has mono/stereo inputs for a VCR, CD player, Mini-disc player, etc. You can record and save these inputs as .wav, mp3, real audio or video, or a number of other formats. I use the USB version and it lists today for about $225 from www.cdw.com . I cannot really vouch for how it might compare to more professional equipment, but the price and capability was right for what I wanted to use it for, and I have created some mp3's and a real video file from video tape that were not bad. I also found I needed a good package for editing .wav files, so I bought something for about $49 that is great, but unfortunately I can't remember the name of it (it's at home). John |--------+-------------------------------> | | "John Lavoie" | | | | | | | | | 04/19/2000 10:34 AM | | | Please respond to | | | webmaster | | | | |--------+-------------------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "Trombones and related issues forum." | | | | cc: (bcc: John McVey/IRM/FRBOG/US) | | Subject: MiniDisc Output? | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| Someone asked about connecting a portable minidisc player to their computer a few months ago. Can you tell me what you finally settled on? Or if anyone else has experience doing this, feel free to chime in (like I really had to ask for that on this list?) JOhn John Lavoie Sophomore, Ithaca College Bass Trombone, Computer Science Fight the DMCA!!! - http://www.eff.org ____________________________________________________________ Get your 100MB FREE Internet storage! Sign up now - http://www.netdrive.com/?ao=zzn From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:59 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:21:35 EDT From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Meet Mr. Roberts Message-ID: <26.48306fb.262f28ff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, all. Just got my copy of the album, "Meet Mr. Roberts" from eBay yesterday. The condition of the disc is great and the sound quality is still excellent! I mention this because I have enjoyed George Roberts' playing for so many years and this LP still sounds like it was recorded just a few years ago. If you guys see some of these "vintage vinyls" up for sale and they are being sold by a reputable seller, by all means get them! (As long as the price doesn't go WAY out of sight!) Matt Varho From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:42:59 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:42:01 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Matt wrote: > It's too bad the Mom and pop stores don't read the current discussion on > the > Trombone-L; it would give them a clue about what they should be doing to > keep > their business from going to the catalogs! > And in a positive vein, I'd like to tell of an experience that I had with a local "mom and pop" store that should serve as an example. My youngest son plays the cello (hey, at least it uses the right clef). After looking around at all of the local dealers, I came to the conclusion that I would be paying between $54 and $60 per month rental until I was sure that Matthew wanted to stick with it. Before I gave in, I checked the yellow pages one more time, and I found a place called "Midwest Violins". I guess I missed it the first time since with a name like that, I would not want to be caught dead in the place. I gave them a call. The fellow who runs the place said "A cello? Gee, those are kind of expensive. I'll have to charge double of what I do for a violin." I asked, "And what is that?" He stated "Well, I usually let violins go for $10.00 a month. I'll have to charge you $25.00 for a cello." After I picked the phone back up (I dropped it on accident), I made an appointment to see him. He wanted only the parents and the boy, no siblings. He said this was because he wanted to spend about an hour with the student with no distractions. We showed up the next week with Matthew in tow. The place was stuffed full of stringed instruments. The owner spent the first ten minutes just talking with Matthew and getting to know him. Then he sized him up for a 1/2 sized cello. He said that since we were renting, we could choose between a nice one that just came back from rental, or he could set up a brand new one. I abhor giving a fourth grader a new anything, so I opted for the returned cello since it still looked new. The owner then proceeded to explain how to set up and care for the cello. The whole while he talked to Matthew, but made sure that we could hear what he was saying. He gave Matthew a 30 minute lesson, showing him how to hold the cello and bow, and how to place his fingers. He then let us know that we were expected to call him if anything at all was wrong with any part of the instrument or accessories. He needed four months rent in advance (a whopping $100.00) and all money goes toward a purchase. I was a bit leery of the instrument quality since it was made in China, but my son's music teacher was rather impressed with the sound. She claims that it is a very good cello for a student model. As an aside, the fellow who owned the violin store said that the Chinese violins and cellos that he has seen in the past two years are superior to what he has seen come out of Europe for twice the price. I guess they are better at making stringed instruments than brass. Anyway, the service that I received from this fellow can only be called first rate. And to top it off, his prices are half what the other locals are charging. I have had an opportunity to see a lot of the rental strings in the area since I usually sit in with the strings as part of my school volunteer work. The cellos this guy is renting ARE superior to the fancy European named ones most of the kids are using. I need to talk with this guy about dealing in trombones . . . Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:02 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:00:37 -0700 From: Peter Ellefson To: Trombone List Subject: Brass Warm-Up Space Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List Members, I am in the process of trying to find a way the brass players in my orchestra to warm-up backstage without interfering with the warm-ups of the other softer instruments. There have been numerous complaints to our orchestra committee chairman about this problem, even though we are generally very careful and considerate. I would like to be able to have some of my warm-up be at the volume I will be required to use on stage but if I did that, I would be caned (probably not "canned" though). My question: For those of you who play in a large ensemble, is there a common warm-up space? Do you have a "Brass Room" where you can warm up without the fear of annoying your colleagues? What concessions have you had to make in order to keep the peace? Any suggestions? Thanks. Peter Ellefson Seattle Symphony P.S. Next week's topic: The Plexiglass Shield From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:02 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:04:08 -0400 From: gonzalo To: tsks@cjnetworks.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Stupid question? Message-ID: <594188.3165134648@angelico.cfa.andrew.cmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi I would like to mention a couple of others models: A indicates Hagmann valve H indicates Heavy weight HG indicates heavy bell with gold bass I hope it helps See ya --On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 8:54 AM -0500 Listmonitor Trombone-L wrote: > Erik- > > For some reason, the listprocessor computer rejected this message. > However, I can answer it. The slides are all stamped with the > generic model number, i.e., 36 for a Bach .525 tenor, 42 for a Bach > .547 tenor, and 50 for a Bach .562 bass. > > The bell section carries the model designator: > no letter indicates no F-attachment > B indicates traditional-wrap > BO indicates open-wrap > C indicates a convertable open-wrap attachment. > (convertable to a straight tenor). > T indicates Thayer Valve > K indicates Balanced Valve > (Bach's answer to the Thayer before they could buy Thayers). > > Other designators you might run into: > G indicates gold brass bell > LT indicates lightweight slide > Z indicates sterling-plus (silver) bell > > There's probably a few others that I don't know, but those are the main > ones. > > LM > > >> From: "Berggren, Erik" >> To: "'Trombone-L'" >> Subject: Stupid question? >> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:21:10 -0500 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by >> po.missouri.edu id IAA08635 >> >> The old cliché that "there is no such thing as a stupid question" may or >> may not be true, but the question I have sure seems to qualify as one! >> I'll go ahead and ask anyway. Don't hold back on the content of your >> responses now, simply to spare my fragile self-esteem! Let 'em fly! >> >> What is the difference between a Bach 36 and a 36B? Am I correct in >> assuming that a 36BO would be with an open wrap F-attachment. Does a >> 36B, then, have a closed wrap F-attachment? That doesn't seem to be the >> case since the "Model 36" stamped on the slide section of the one I've >> owned for 25+ years came with a closed wrap F-attachment. >> >> Thanks, in advance, for your responses! >> >> P.S. - I've sure enjoyed the threads regarding oiling the rotor! I've >> been lubricating mine without ever having disassembling it, and think I >> will continue that way. The action has always been super! > > --------------------------------------- > trombone-l digest archives and useful > trombone-l information are available > at http://www.cjnetworks.com/~tsks From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:02 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:09:57 +0200 From: "Christopher D. Truchon" To: Cc: Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <008301bfaa19$d7081a40$c4be9b3e@gwynscomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every new Edwards I've tried (including the 6 tenors and 2 basses we bought a few years back) has had some sort of sticky spot somewhere in the slide. However, the slide on the Yamaha 613H we bought just 6 months ago is awesome! I have never played on a slide that had better action-and this is straight from the box (I tore open the cardboard myself at the store), not after repairs or the advantage of the Slide Dr.'s magic. This is the only Yamaha I've ever 'driven off of the lot', but I doubt that it was a fluke. The other guys need to check into the final assembly standards that Yamaha is using. Chris Truchon Bass Trombonist The U.S. Army, Europe, Band and Chorus Heidelberg, Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:22 AM Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems > After having worked in the music instrument industry for a few years, here > are some things I've heard that might be of interest. > In the mass produced instrument market, the only company with "modern" > quaility control standards in Yamaha. I can attest to this, as I've played > both good and LOUSY Bach and UMI horns recently (anyone tried a brand new > Bach 50 in the past year or so?). One way around it is to find a bell with a > sound you like, and then go slide hunting. If they have several 42BO's in > stock, and you find one you like, but the slide sticks, try the other slides. > They'll switch them to make the sale, and you walk away with a better horn > overall. > I think the smaller "custom" manufacturers are a lot more careful, as they > know they're horns are purchased because of excellent quality and sound. > That is why Edwards/Shires/Lawler/etc. horns seem to always have excellent > slides. Would you pay an extra grand for a horn when they couldn't even get > the slide alignment right? > > Just an impression, additions and opinions more than welcome, > > Joshua From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:02 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:20:27 -0400 From: "Richardson, Tim" To: "'Anders Carlsson'" , JoshuaSL@aol.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE28C93C7@LEE2> Nice thing about vinegar, it smells strong enough you can tell if you've rinsed it all out or not. Bad thing about vinegar, if you did not rinse it out and you play an outdoor gig late in summer, you can attract guests you did not intend. I have played wrong notes not realizing they weren't really ink. (but it wasn't vinegar, it may have been beer that attracted them). And yellowjackets (groundnesting hornets fond of picnics) start with one queen in the spring, and build to a colony of 5,000 by late August. I generally find one nest per year while mowing my lawn. This may have been why R-K wrote one trombone piece and quit to write something more famous. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anders Carlsson [SMTP:Anders.Carlsson@gfs.gu.se] > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 8:24 AM > To: JoshuaSL@aol.com > Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems > > > I too have had similar experiences with brand new slides. For me it has > always helped to clean the slides really carefully inside. It seems > like this is where the manufacturers fail. When taking out a brand new > slide from its plastic wrapping and wiping the inside of the outer > slide with a white cloth it almost always comes out all black and > greasy. Even though it is new, there is always some manufacturing > residue/grease/slide lubricant mix in the slides. > > To get rid of the grease I pour industrial benzine on the cloth before > wiping the outer slide. (Inside, outside will effectively remove laquer > on some horns). If you live in an area where there is a lot of > limestone in the water you may after a while get lime deposit inside > your horn. To remove this you can go to a repairshop or you can use a > mild form of acid to react with the basic lime. I use vinegar from the > grocery store and it works fine. I use this process on my rotaries and > pistons too. Metallurgists may or may not object, I?ve heard both > stories. After this process the horn is really clean and then use what > works best on your trombone SOM or trombotine or whatever. But you will > feel the difference. > > Anders Carlsson From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:02 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:22:02 EDT From: REOnofreyJ@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Fwd: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_e.280400e.262f372a_boundary" In a message dated 04/19/2000 12:15:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Truchon@surf1.de writes: << This is the only Yamaha I've ever 'driven off of the lot', but I doubt that it was a fluke. The other guys need to check into the final assembly standards that Yamaha is using. >> I've only bought one new "straight out of the box" horn in my life, and it's a Yamaha YLS-646. I've never done anything but clean the slide, and it is among the best slides I've ever played as well. I second the above comments about Yamaha. Rick Onofrey Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:15:27 -0400 Received: from po.missouri.edu (po.missouri.edu [128.206.12.137]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:15:12 -0400 Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by po.missouri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA06299; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:15:10 -0500 Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by po.missouri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06220 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:14:35 -0500 Received: from gwynscomputer (p3E9BBEC4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.155.190.196]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA13942; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:13:52 +0200 Message-Id: <008301bfaa19$d7081a40$c4be9b3e@gwynscomputer> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:09:57 +0200 Reply-To: Truchon@surf1.de Sender: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Christopher D. Truchon" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems References: <94.3399014.262e8e72@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-To: X-Cc: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Every new Edwards I've tried (including the 6 tenors and 2 basses we bought a few years back) has had some sort of sticky spot somewhere in the slide. However, the slide on the Yamaha 613H we bought just 6 months ago is awesome! I have never played on a slide that had better action-and this is straight from the box (I tore open the cardboard myself at the store), not after repairs or the advantage of the Slide Dr.'s magic. This is the only Yamaha I've ever 'driven off of the lot', but I doubt that it was a fluke. The other guys need to check into the final assembly standards that Yamaha is using. Chris Truchon Bass Trombonist The U.S. Army, Europe, Band and Chorus Heidelberg, Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:22 AM Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems > After having worked in the music instrument industry for a few years, here > are some things I've heard that might be of interest. > In the mass produced instrument market, the only company with "modern" > quaility control standards in Yamaha. I can attest to this, as I've played > both good and LOUSY Bach and UMI horns recently (anyone tried a brand new > Bach 50 in the past year or so?). One way around it is to find a bell with a > sound you like, and then go slide hunting. If they have several 42BO's in > stock, and you find one you like, but the slide sticks, try the other slides. > They'll switch them to make the sale, and you walk away with a better horn > overall. > I think the smaller "custom" manufacturers are a lot more careful, as they > know they're horns are purchased because of excellent quality and sound. > That is why Edwards/Shires/Lawler/etc. horns seem to always have excellent > slides. Would you pay an extra grand for a horn when they couldn't even get > the slide alignment right? > > Just an impression, additions and opinions more than welcome, > > Joshua From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:44:39 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: BassBonist@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000419103850.00a26220@yucca.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:39 AM 4/19/00 -0400, BassBonist@aol.com wrote: ><< It is pretty > disgusting to me to have a student come to me with a brand new horn that has > not even been cleaned prior to being sold. All this "service" and retail > pricing, too. This is just one of the many reasons that I have absolutely > no pangs of conscience when I hand a student's parents a WW&BW or > Giardinelli catalog. >> > >It's too bad the Mom and pop stores don't read the current discussion on the >Trombone-L; it would give them a clue about what they should be doing to keep >their business from going to the catalogs! > >Matt Varho You know, I showed this to the manager of our store and he pointed a few things out to me. Check this out -- We have a number of people who will come into our store, ask us to get an instrument, check it out, ask us questions about it, borrow it for a week or more, return it, and order it from a catalog. How can we continue to offer services if we can't sell them? Shouldn't that kind of service be worth a little higher price than a mail-order house will give you? Chris Waage, are you out there? Perhaps you would have a comment? Last instance of this was with piccolos. We ordered two piccolos, a Gemeinhardt and a Yamaha. Pretty nice instruments, too. The mother of the student was present when we opened the shipping box. She borrowed the two instruments overnight to "decide which one she wanted". Next morning she brought them both back and informed us that she had ordered the one she wanted from a mail-order house. You can bet she doesn't get that kind of personal service any more... Earl Tarpley Music Company Clovis, New Mexico USA 1-800-477-2316 http://www.tarpleymusic.com/ Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:41:41 -0500 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'Anders.Carlsson@gfs.gu.se'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In my past life I was a benchtop chemist. Just a word on Benzene. It has an OSHA page in the toxicology book. It is highly absorbed through the skin. Try not to get benzene on your skin, and clean in a well ventilated space (we were required to use industrial hoods which I doubt you have at home). It has been associated with bone marrow suppression and leukemias as have other organic solvents. Rick Marple San Antonio TX -----Original Message----- From: Anders Carlsson [mailto:Anders.Carlsson@gfs.gu.se] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 7:24 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems I too have had similar experiences with brand new slides. For me it has always helped to clean the slides really carefully inside. It seems like this is where the manufacturers fail. When taking out a brand new slide from its plastic wrapping and wiping the inside of the outer slide with a white cloth it almost always comes out all black and greasy. Even though it is new, there is always some manufacturing residue/grease/slide lubricant mix in the slides. To get rid of the grease I pour industrial benzine on the cloth before wiping the outer slide. (Inside, outside will effectively remove laquer on some horns). If you live in an area where there is a lot of limestone in the water you may after a while get lime deposit inside your horn. To remove this you can go to a repairshop or you can use a mild form of acid to react with the basic lime. I use vinegar from the grocery store and it works fine. I use this process on my rotaries and pistons too. Metallurgists may or may not object, I«ve heard both stories. After this process the horn is really clean and then use what works best on your trombone SOM or trombotine or whatever. But you will feel the difference. Anders Carlsson From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:03:24 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000419115523.00b21bf0@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:44 AM 4/19/00 -0600, Earl Needham wrote: > Last instance of this was with piccolos. We ordered two > piccolos, a Gemeinhardt and a Yamaha. Pretty nice instruments, too. The > mother of the student was present when we opened the shipping box. She > borrowed the two instruments overnight to "decide which one she > wanted". Next morning she brought them both back and informed us that > she had ordered the one she wanted from a mail-order house. That stinks. There are some low-lifes everywhere who will do that. It is like people who buy an expensive party dress and then try to return it the day after the party. The worst example of this I ever saw was a lady who tried to return an 18-month-old double stroller (for twins) after they had outgrown it. She had no receipt and she wasn't even sure she had actually bought it at that particular store. She was ahead of me in line arguing with the manager for 20 minutes. She was trying to claim that it had a dangerous wobble and she might have to sue the store if they didn't give her a refund. I wanted to go "Bobby Knight" (the basketball one) on her right there. But in your case, why don't you require a restocking charge? I believe WW&BW has a policy on mouthpieces that you can take three on referral, but you are obliged to ultimately buy at least one of them. I see no reason why a customer should expect to get a week-long home approval from you with no cost and no obligation. My 2 cents. Craig From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:12:51 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Earl, Another lesson to learn from some of the mail order houses. WW&BW will let you try out up to three mouthpieces with a credit card deposit. If you keep one and return the other two, there is no additional charge other than the cost of the one you keep. If you return all three, they charge a "restocking fee". Perhaps you should do the same. We'll let you try any horn you want for a $10.00 (or whatever) deposit on each. If you buy a horn from us, your deposits are credited to the purchase price of the instrument. Otherwise, they are considered rental. I don't know of any guys around here that will let you "borrow" a horn. One won't even rent you one unless you are a student. The old dealer who retired a couple years ago would let me borrow horns. He knew that once I played one it was sold, unless there was something wrong with it. Heck, he literally pushed me out the door with one a couple of times, and made it real easy to pay for. Gosh I miss him! If I remember correctly, his usual practice was to let you try out whatever you wanted for as long as you wanted IN the store. If you left with it, you needed to put down a deposit or sign a rental contract. He was real loose on this with regular customers, however. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Earl Needham [SMTP:kd5xb@amsat.org] > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 11:45 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems > > At 10:39 AM 4/19/00 -0400, BassBonist@aol.com wrote: > ><< It is pretty > > disgusting to me to have a student come to me with a brand new horn > that has > > not even been cleaned prior to being sold. All this "service" and > retail > > pricing, too. This is just one of the many reasons that I have > absolutely > > no pangs of conscience when I hand a student's parents a WW&BW or > > Giardinelli catalog. >> > > > >It's too bad the Mom and pop stores don't read the current discussion on > the > >Trombone-L; it would give them a clue about what they should be doing to > keep > >their business from going to the catalogs! > > > >Matt Varho > > You know, I showed this to the manager of our store and he > pointed > a few things out to me. Check this out -- > > We have a number of people who will come into our store, ask us > to > get an instrument, check it out, ask us questions about it, borrow it for > a > week or more, return it, and order it from a catalog. How can we continue > > to offer services if we can't sell them? Shouldn't that kind of service > be > worth a little higher price than a mail-order house will give you? > > Chris Waage, are you out there? Perhaps you would have a > comment? > > Last instance of this was with piccolos. We ordered two > piccolos, > a Gemeinhardt and a Yamaha. Pretty nice instruments, too. The mother of > the student was present when we opened the shipping box. She borrowed the > > two instruments overnight to "decide which one she wanted". Next morning > she brought them both back and informed us that she had ordered the one > she > wanted from a mail-order house. > > You can bet she doesn't get that kind of personal service any > more... > > Earl > Tarpley Music Company > Clovis, New Mexico USA > 1-800-477-2316 > http://www.tarpleymusic.com/ > > > > Earl Needham, > KD5XB > mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG > Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) > > Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, > you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:36:22 -0400 From: Thomas Cox To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Stupid question? Message-ID: <5FA575D78630D3118B2E0090276DC89F0241B673@merc08.us.sas.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Also: D indicates a detachable bell, for swapping flares easily. ...assuming, of course, you can find one. Anybody got a 42DG or 42DZ flare they wanna sell? (Preferably with easy payment terms, so the wife won't kill me. :-) Thomas Cox -----Original Message----- From: gonzalo [mailto:gonzalo@andrew.cmu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 12:04 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Stupid question? Hi I would like to mention a couple of others models: A indicates Hagmann valve H indicates Heavy weight HG indicates heavy bell with gold bass I hope it helps See ya --On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 8:54 AM -0500 Listmonitor Trombone-L wrote: > Erik- > > For some reason, the listprocessor computer rejected this message. > However, I can answer it. The slides are all stamped with the > generic model number, i.e., 36 for a Bach .525 tenor, 42 for a Bach > .547 tenor, and 50 for a Bach .562 bass. > > The bell section carries the model designator: > no letter indicates no F-attachment > B indicates traditional-wrap > BO indicates open-wrap > C indicates a convertable open-wrap attachment. > (convertable to a straight tenor). > T indicates Thayer Valve > K indicates Balanced Valve > (Bach's answer to the Thayer before they could buy Thayers). > > Other designators you might run into: > G indicates gold brass bell > LT indicates lightweight slide > Z indicates sterling-plus (silver) bell > > There's probably a few others that I don't know, but those are the main > ones. > > LM > > >> From: "Berggren, Erik" >> To: "'Trombone-L'" >> Subject: Stupid question? >> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:21:10 -0500 >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by >> po.missouri.edu id IAA08635 >> >> The old cliché that "there is no such thing as a stupid question" may or >> may not be true, but the question I have sure seems to qualify as one! >> I'll go ahead and ask anyway. Don't hold back on the content of your >> responses now, simply to spare my fragile self-esteem! Let 'em fly! >> >> What is the difference between a Bach 36 and a 36B? Am I correct in >> assuming that a 36BO would be with an open wrap F-attachment. Does a >> 36B, then, have a closed wrap F-attachment? That doesn't seem to be the >> case since the "Model 36" stamped on the slide section of the one I've >> owned for 25+ years came with a closed wrap F-attachment. >> >> Thanks, in advance, for your responses! >> >> P.S. - I've sure enjoyed the threads regarding oiling the rotor! I've >> been lubricating mine without ever having disassembling it, and think I >> will continue that way. The action has always been super! > > --------------------------------------- > trombone-l digest archives and useful > trombone-l information are available > at http://www.cjnetworks.com/~tsks From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:47:37 -0500 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Earl Needham wrote: > We have a number of people who will come into our store, ask >us to get an instrument, check it out, ask us questions about it, >borrow it for a week or more, return it, and order it from a >catalog. How can we continue to offer services if we can't sell >them? Shouldn't that kind of service be worth a little higher price >than a mail-order house will give you? > Last instance of this was with piccolos. We ordered two >piccolos, a Gemeinhardt and a Yamaha. Pretty nice instruments, too. >The mother of the student was present when we opened the shipping >box. She borrowed the two instruments overnight to "decide which >one she wanted". Next morning she brought them both back and >informed us that she had ordered the one she wanted from a >mail-order house. The average consumer has lost sight of being an educated consumer. It's more "tell me what I want" than "tell me what I should know to make a decision." When you go into the local music store and try the instruments, ask questions of the staff, and then buy from a mail-order supplier, you have essentially stolen from the local music store. Who helped you decide between the various and sundry choices? Do you think the store space, employees, inventory and lighting is free? Nope. Somebody pays for it. If the kid trips walking up the stairs at school and smashed the bell of the trumpet two hours before the concert, will the mail-order house be there to fix it? Nope. There's always a trade-off. There are three facets to any sale: Price, quality, and availability. The consumer can control two of the three, and the third will be affected by the combination of the other two. Need it NOW??? Pay more. Willing to wait? Pay less. In the 1960s, if you needed gas, you pulled your car into a service station. They checked the oil, washer fluid and the air in the tires, scraped the dead bugs off the windshield, and filled the tank. They had a pop machine, and maybe some beef jerky or chewing gum. 30+ years later, you pull in for gas, get milk, magazines, pop, snacks, and whatever else the local convenience store carries. Gas is a bit cheaper comparitively, but you now check your own oil, washer fluid and tires, scrape your own dead bugs, and pump your own gas. There's also a caveat for the music stores. If they have salesmen, then they've just about lost the war. Selling is truly an art, but it really has no place in the music store. A consultant approach is needed. Find out the need, the hidden factors which drive the need, then present the best options to fit the need. If you're over 30, think back to the neighborhood hardware store (if you're under thirty, ask your parents). You went in because you had broken something, and they not only helped you find the right parts, but told you how to fix it. Would the parts have been cheaper at Home Depot? Probably. However, you were paying, not only for the parts, but the expertise of the individual who helped you. Look at it from another standpoint - if you were going to take private lessons, who would you chose as your teacher: The high school kid who charges $10 a half hour, or the college professor who charges $50? Granted, quite a bit of this depends upon your playing level, but who do you think had more time, effort and research behind his or her instructional methodology? You get what you pay for. Period. Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com Visit The Mouthpiece Exchange at http://www.waageworks.com _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:58:33 -0500 From: "Douglas Kilen" To: "trombone-L" Subject: King Message-ID: <006f01bfaa31$440bb2c0$d712e0d1@mark> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking at purchasing (cheap) a used King Cleveland Superior trombone in pretty good condition. The serial # puts it at late 60's/early 70's. Anyone have any idea what the bore of this instrument is or what level of horn this model is? Any information will be appreciated... From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:03:13 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: dkilen@pressenter.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: King Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000419130222.00a2a6c0@yucca.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:58 PM 4/19/00 -0500, Douglas Kilen wrote: >I'm looking at purchasing (cheap) a used King Cleveland Superior trombone in >pretty good condition. The serial # puts it at late 60's/early 70's. >Anyone have any idea what the bore of this instrument is or what level of >horn this model is? Any information will be appreciated... Cleveland is (was?) the name for King's student line. I believe the Cleveland had a .550 bore size, but I'm really not sure of that one. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:03 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:33:23 -0400 From: Charles To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Osmun Music Phone#? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000419183323.006bc2dc@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Would someone please give me the phone number for Osman Music? Thanks in advance! Charlie From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:04 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:38:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Loewen To: Charles Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Osmun Music Phone#? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Charles wrote: > Would someone please give me the phone number for Osman Music? (800) 223-7846 Their web page is at: http://www.osmun.com/ Mike Loewen The Dixie Lion Jazz Band mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:05 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:10:11 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Local vs Mail Order Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Chris wrote: > The average consumer has lost sight of being an educated consumer. > It's more "tell me what I want" than "tell me what I should know to > make a decision." When you go into the local music store and try the > instruments, ask questions of the staff, and then buy from a > mail-order supplier, you have essentially stolen from the local music > store. Who helped you decide between the various and sundry choices? > Absolutely. > There's also a caveat for the music stores. If they have salesmen, > then they've just about lost the war. Selling is truly an art, but > it really has no place in the music store. A consultant approach is > needed. Find out the need, the hidden factors which drive the need, > then present the best options to fit the need. If you're over 30, > think back to the neighborhood hardware store (if you're under > thirty, ask your parents). You went in because you had broken > something, and they not only helped you find the right parts, but > told you how to fix it. > Very good comparison. > You get what you pay for. > > Period. > Here we differ. I walked into a local music emporium a while back and stood at the counter waiting for the pimply faced kid working there to put down the electric guitar and come over and assist me. It did not take me long to figure out that the hair on my rump knows more about brass instruments than this zero, but the price on nearly every Bach and Yamaha there was at retail. Want repairs done there? They'll ship the horn to their "main store" and you can have it back in two weeks. So, will you get what you pay for? No. Maybe if you buy an electric guitar. Just maybe. Drove over to the other "big" dealer in the area. Not a lot of time for someone "just looking". Same deal with repairs, only a bit shorter "promised" turnaround time. These guys sold my buddy a used Yamaha YSL354 for $750.00. Boy, he got what he paid for! The UPS man is a lot friendlier and would have only taken about $375.00 from him for a NEW YSL354 from Giardinelli. No, you do not ALWAYS get what you pay for. Often, the uninformed get screwed. I have found the best policy is to look at as many options as you can. Using the YSL354 as an example. I would have no problem paying a local dealer $450 to $475 for a new one. I may even give him $375 for a good used one that he is willing to stand behind. But full retail on a used (or even new) model? No freaking way. I'll order one first. And there is NO WAY that I am paying retail for something that they do not have in stock. If I have to wait for it, I may as well order it myself. I went looking for a bucket mute for my trombone. Nobody had one, but for a down payment, they would order one for me. Yeah, I can order one too. And even with shipping it comes to less than what they wanted. So in this case, I would get exactly what I paid for - from Woodwind / Brasswind. And I would not even have to drive downtown to get it. It comes right to my door. And if I don't like it, WW&BW will take it back. I don't think that most of us have a problem with the good, honest dealers in this world. But not all of us live within driving distance to the Brass Bow or Wichita Band Instrument, or any of the others with good reputations. If you have a music dealer in your area that is at all the way Chris mentions, by all means, deal with him. If you don't, you should not feel one bit bad about getting the deal that is right for you. And that may mean mail order. In the end, a person who is always looking for the lowest price will get screwed just as badly as if he went to a rip-off dealer. But true value is a compromise, a middle ground. True value is when you purchase a quality product at a reasonable price. A good deal is when both the buyer and the seller are both happy with the deal. There are still places in this country where you can purchase a good product, get good service, and save a bit of money. They may just not be within 100 miles of your home. As long as people demand quality and service, there will be someone who will provide it. But if we accept poor quality and / or poor service just to support the locals, we only hurt ourselves. No, you don't always get what you pay for. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:05 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:17:27 EDT From: TonyC789@aol.com To: kdowdy@oppd.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Local vs Mail Order Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gotta go with Ken on this one. As I look around my house, I have a collection of top-quality tubas, euphoniums and trombones that are in the thousands of dollars worth EACH! NOT A ONE was purchased within 2,000 miles of me. Oh, I buy my mutes and stands and valve oil near here, but I cannot buy an instrument that suits my needs anywhere NEAR me. Believe me, I'd MUCH rather have a relationship with a music dealer in my area, but there isnt one! Tony Clements From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:07 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:55:22 -0400 From: "Anthony J. Heins" To: Trombones and related issues forum Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <38FE2B4A.A2D034C9@stratos.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, At the time of reconstruction after W.W.II, Edward Demming tried to get US auto makers interested in his philosophy of "total quality" which they ignored for the most part, so he took his knowledge to Japan where it was embraced almost like a second national religion! By the time the US woke up, Japan had trained a generation of dedicated quality oriented workers. Obviously, Yamaha is a good example that "quality pays-off "! T.Heins "Christopher D. Truchon" wrote: > Every new Edwards I've tried (including the 6 tenors and 2 basses we bought > a few years back) has had some sort of sticky spot somewhere in the slide. > However, the slide on the Yamaha 613H we bought just 6 months ago is > awesome! I have never played on a slide that had better action-and this is > straight from the box (I tore open the cardboard myself at the store), not > after repairs or the advantage of the Slide Dr.'s magic. This is the only > Yamaha I've ever 'driven off of the lot', but I doubt that it was a fluke. > The other guys need to check into the final assembly standards that Yamaha > is using. > > Chris Truchon > Bass Trombonist > The U.S. Army, Europe, Band and Chorus > Heidelberg, Germany > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:22 AM > Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems > > > After having worked in the music instrument industry for a few years, here > > are some things I've heard that might be of interest. > > In the mass produced instrument market, the only company with "modern" > > quaility control standards in Yamaha. I can attest to this, as I've > played > > both good and LOUSY Bach and UMI horns recently (anyone tried a brand new > > Bach 50 in the past year or so?). One way around it is to find a bell > with a > > sound you like, and then go slide hunting. If they have several 42BO's in > > stock, and you find one you like, but the slide sticks, try the other > slides. > > They'll switch them to make the sale, and you walk away with a better > horn > > overall. > > I think the smaller "custom" manufacturers are a lot more careful, as they > > know they're horns are purchased because of excellent quality and sound. > > That is why Edwards/Shires/Lawler/etc. horns seem to always have excellent > > slides. Would you pay an extra grand for a horn when they couldn't even > get > > the slide alignment right? > > > > Just an impression, additions and opinions more than welcome, > > > > Joshua From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:07 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:23:55 -0500 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: RE: Local vs Mail Order Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Tony Clements wrote: >Gotta go with Ken on this one. As I look around my house, I have a collection >of top-quality tubas, euphoniums and trombones that are in the thousands of >dollars worth EACH! NOT A ONE was purchased within 2,000 miles of me. Oh, I >buy my mutes and stands and valve oil near here, but I cannot buy an >instrument that suits my needs anywhere NEAR me. Believe me, I'd MUCH rather >have a relationship with a music dealer in my area, but there isnt one! Gotta put a resounding AMEN on this one. The nearest dealer for me that actually believes in customer service is 80 miles away. There are two "major" retailers in my area, but both are along the lines of the stores Ken described. Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com Visit the Mouthpiece Exchange at http://www.waageworks.com _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:09 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:50:25 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: kdowdy@oppd.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Local vs Mail Order Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000419154935.00a30430@yucca.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:10 PM 4/19/00 -0500, you wrote: Here we differ. I walked into a local music emporium a while back and stood at the counter waiting for the pimply faced kid working there to put down the electric guitar and come over and assist me. It did not take me long to figure out that the hair on my rump knows more about brass instruments than this zero, but the price on nearly every Bach and Yamaha there was at retail. Hey, Ken, guess what? I was hired to be the "band & orchestra" person here. why? Because every teenager/person under 30 or so wants to deal with GUITARS! Forget the brass & woodwinds -- they're for SCHOOL bands and just aren't "cool". BTW -- we do most repairs here, on-site. Only overhauls & re-lacquering are sent to the main store in Amarillo. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:09 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:34:36 -0500 From: "Tom Izzo" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Brass Warm-Up Space Message-ID: <003501bfaa57$d36a50e0$3075dfd0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, > Dear List Members, > My question: > > For those of you who play in a large ensemble, is there a common warm-up > space? Do you have a "Brass Room" where you can warm up without the fear of > annoying your colleagues? What concessions have you had to make in order to > keep the peace? Two words: SILENT BRASS. Works every time. Tom > > Any suggestions? > > > Thanks. > > Peter Ellefson > Seattle Symphony > > > P.S. Next week's topic: The Plexiglass Shield From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:11 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:12:19 EDT From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Brass Warm-Up Space Message-ID: <76.31af268.262f9753@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Ellefson writes: <> When possible (most of the time) I do a thorough warm-up at home, drive to work, buzz the mouthpiece a little in the car and when I get backstage I look for a corner near a trumpet or horn player. This way, if I blow some notes near another brass player, I don't get "the look" from one of the string players, who many times don't grasp what we have to do in order to be Ready. Sometimes you can look around the building ahead of time and find a nook away from the main "noodling" area. (Basement, pit, etc.) When this option is not available, I do use a mute like Tom Izzo suggested. Matt Varho From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:37:18 -0500 From: Gary Greenhoe To: btheins@stratos.net Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: CONN 88H slide problems Message-ID: <38FE432E.A9E71FE1@greenhoe.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ahhh...nice to hear this good stuff about Yamaha slides! Guess who is the "proud owner" of a really nice piece of equipment.....a genuine YAMAHA drawbench....the slickest, most versatile draw bench I've ever seen? hee, hee....ME! And the power co. is just today connecting my 3 phase power supply! :-) Gary "Anthony J. Heins" wrote: > > Chris, > At the time of reconstruction after W.W.II, Edward Demming tried to get US auto > makers interested in his philosophy of "total quality" which they ignored for > the most part, so he took his knowledge to Japan where it was embraced almost > like a second national religion! By the time the US woke up, Japan had trained a > generation of dedicated quality oriented workers. Obviously, Yamaha is a good > example that "quality pays-off "! > T.Heins From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:54:36 EDT From: Harykoz@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Brass Warm-Up Space Message-ID: <2b.48ffdb2.262fa13c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/19/00 6:13:57 PM Central Daylight Time, BassBonist@aol.com writes: << This way, if I blow some notes near another brass player, I don't get "the look" from one of the string players, who many times don't grasp what we have to do in order to be Ready. >> I say "to hell" with the "nanzey pansies" who have a disdain for what we as brass players have to do in order to be prepared to perform. They complain, yet I am required to listen to the "scratchers" and their ongoing attempts at scales and arpeggios. I also have to endure the cellists' feeble attempts at persuading us all as to how they are indeed the next soloist du jour. Let the scratchers and double reed biters warm up in the alley if they feel so inconvenienced. Hary From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:36:15 -0700 From: "Kathy Green" To: Subject: Re: Parrot Trombones Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are some for sale on eBay. From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:14:20 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: Harykoz@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Brass Warm-Up Space Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000419190743.00b52a60@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 07:54 PM 4/19/00 -0400, Harykoz@aol.com wrote: > >I say "to hell" with the "nanzey pansies" who have a disdain for what we as >brass players have to do in order to be prepared to perform. They complain, >yet I am required to listen to the "scratchers" and their ongoing attempts at >scales and arpeggios. I also have to endure the cellists' feeble attempts at >persuading us all as to how they are indeed the next soloist du jour. > >Let the scratchers and double reed biters warm up in the alley if they feel >so inconvenienced. I'm inclined to agree. Do any of these people have a clue what we have to go through in order to play in the same ensemble they're in? I mean tuning to an unstable note (and the pitch is going to change anyway), trying (TRYING) to play soft enough that their "unconfidant" player can be heard on the solo parts. And taking care of the horn, too! I mean, when was the last time any of those violins was given a good cleaning? I bet the most they do on a daily basis is tuning and putting rosin on the bow! Heaven forbid they should be put in a bathtub full of warm water! (Only half joking...) I agree -- after all, warming up is just that -- warming up. It isn't a performance to be interrupted by our loudly playing the highest possible notes (lead trumpet players excluded!). Respect should go both ways on this issue. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) PGP Key ID 0xAD6BFBD8 Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:19:16 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Cc: dkilen@pressenter.com Subject: Re: King Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000419191741.00bf7cd0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 01:03 PM 4/19/00 -0600, Earl Needham wrote: >At 01:58 PM 4/19/00 -0500, Douglas Kilen wrote: >>I'm looking at purchasing (cheap) a used King Cleveland Superior trombone in >>pretty good condition. The serial # puts it at late 60's/early 70's. >>Anyone have any idea what the bore of this instrument is or what level of >>horn this model is? Any information will be appreciated... > > Cleveland is (was?) the name for King's student line. I believe > the Cleveland had a .550 bore size, but I'm really not sure of that one. You know how, every once in a while, your fingers will hit a key twice when you only want one? Well that's what happened here -- the Cleveland is around a .500"bore size, NOT .550"!!! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) PGP Key ID 0xAD6BFBD8 Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:37:56 +0100 From: Eric and Candice Swanson Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: King Message-ID: <38FE191D.F62D6EA3@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 01:58 PM 4/19/00 -0500, Douglas Kilen wrote: > >I'm looking at purchasing (cheap) a used King Cleveland Superior trombone in > >pretty good condition. The serial # puts it at late 60's/early 70's. > >Anyone have any idea what the bore of this instrument is or what level of > >horn this model is? Any information will be appreciated... Earl Needham wrote: > Cleveland is (was?) the name for King's student line. I believe > the Cleveland had a .550 bore size, but I'm really not sure of that one. > > Doug, I'll go along with Earl about it being a student line horn. But Earl, I believe you're way off on the bore. The Clevelands I've seen have all been small bores, the earliest info I have is the 605 in the 70s and even that was a .491" bore. I'd just about bet this horn is .491" or maybe even slightly smaller. (.550" would be bigger than an 88H). Eric Swanson From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:45:59 -0500 From: "Eric Edwards" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Slides Message-ID: <006201bfaa72$90ccd580$5f3aaec7@Flashnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005F_01BFAA48.A69DF440"
Hi all,  I just want to make myself clear.  In no way whatsoever am I condoning the shoddy workmanship ( there is no CRAFTSMANSHIP going on with the major manufacturers!!) that is being demonstrated by UMI and Bach.  I am just as disgusted by the lack of quality control as you all.  Even more so since I must face the parents and teachers and students who have to buy this crap!
Just recently I had the misfortune to service a brand new 50B3T (whatever the freakin model is)  Bach bass w/Thayers.  None of the braces matched,  not to mention the valves were jammed, and the slide was not even worth mentioning!
 All this for the tidy MSRP of $5295.00!!!
I will say that UMI is starting to make "some" progress as far as quality goes.  But they all have a long way to go.
As  always,  our best weapon for this is our wallets!  Don't settle for less than your complete satisfaction.  If the particular store won't work with you and support you, walk out!! 
Sorry, but I just had to vent!!
Thanks for everyone's time.
Eric Edwards
Shop Foreman
Brook Mays Music
"Just shut up and play!!"
 From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:14 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:21:33 -0500 From: "Brandon C. Moodie" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Doug Elliott Bass M'Piece For Sale Message-ID: <000201bfaa77$876d9880$8bca8ad1@c.moodie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, I'll jump in with my own offering.... I have an Elliott L cup and L8 shank for sale. These pieces were only used a couple of times, so their condition is like new. $70 for both, and I'll pay shipping within the U.S. E-mail to longtones@mindspring.com if interested. Thanks, --Brandon Moodie > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Randy Campora > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 9:55 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Doug Elliott Bass M'Piece For Sale > > > All this Doug Elliott talk has reminded me that I have one right > here I can > sell to someone. I have not figured out a price yet, so just > email me and > I'll work on that in the mean time. > > Here are the specs: > > Doug Elliott Bass Trombone Mouthpiece, in three pieces as are all of them > (rim & cup silverpated, backbore is bare brass): > > Rim: 114 > > Cup: M > > Backbore: M9 > > It's about 10 years old, has not seen much use, in very good condition, > slight tarnish on silver, little bit of wear on the rim from > sitting around > for a decade. > > -Randy Campora > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Randy Campora, Bass Trombonist > Baltimore Symphony Orchestra > Peabody Conservatory of Music > > campora@peabody.jhu.edu > 410-461-1984 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:14 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:43:06 -0500 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Brass Warm-Up Space Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In Peter Ellefson's orginal message, he stated that the orchestra committee chairman had received "numerous complaints." My first question would be "how many?" When people use the word "numerous," they are usually trying to hide the fact that there are only one or two individuals doing the complaining, and that the individual who is making the "numerous complaints" statement is too spineless to tell them to take a hike. The simplest solution is for the brass players to be considerate of the "quieter" instruments. But, should it become more heated, they could always ask the cymbal player to warm up with them ;-) Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com Visit the Mouthpiece Exchange at http://www.waageworks.com _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:14 2000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 02:31:14 EDT From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Parrot Trombones Message-ID: <11.2ca4c4f.262ffe32@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy Green wrote: << There are some [Parrot trombones] for sale on eBay. >> What are the coordinates so I can launch an ICBM? Matt Varho From ???@??? Thu Apr 20 07:43:14 2000 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 02:57:21 EDT From: Tmazzocchi@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Trombone package Message-ID: <3b.3c26df2.26300451@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit eB ay item 313554758 (Ends Apr-26-00 23:56:28 PDT) - ****AMAZING TROMBONE PACKAGE DEAL!!!!**** Check this out if interested!