TROMBONE-L Digest 1632 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: ETW 2000 is in the books! by Tim Dowling 2) Re: Finger on the bell by Craig Parmerlee 3) Fingering the bell by David Molter 4) Fingering the bell by "John McVey" 5) re: Finger on the Bell by "Kathy Green" 6) Christian Lindberg by Jay Heltzer 7) criticism/reviewing by David Molter 8) Re: Finger on the bell by sabutin@mindspring.com 9) Re: Trigger hitting chin by Eric and Candice Swanson 10) Re: Trigger hitting chin by "John McVey" 11) Re: Finger on the bell by Walter Barrett 12) RE: gold mouthpieces by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 13) RE: Trigger hitting chin by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 14) Re: Finger on the bell by "Gary D. Maxwell" 15) Re: Criticism by Walter Barrett 16) Re: gold mouthpieces by Dennis Clason 17) Tune it or Die by David Buckley 18) Re: Finger on the bell by David Buckley 19) RE: Finger on the bell by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 20) Re: Finger/thumb on the bell by james.c.shake@us.pwcglobal.com 21) Re: Tune it or Die by Chris Waage 22) Re: gold mouthpieces by "MUCS Jeffrey B. Diehl" 23) Re: Tune it or Die by "Gary D. Maxwell" 24) Re: Fingering the bell by "Daniel Pliskin" 25) Re: ETW 2000 is in the books! by "Gesualdo@mindspring.com" 26) Fingers on the bell by James Scott 27) Re: Finger on the bell by Jeff Albert 28) Re: jazz/improv by "Adrian Drover" 29) Re: jazz/improv by sabutin@mindspring.com 30) Re: Fingers on the bell by "Art Triggs" 31) question by "Douglas Kilen" 32) B78/B88 Trombones by Roger Karren 33) RE: Trigger hitting chin by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 34) RE: question by "Rodger Hinson" 35) Buying Euphonium(s) by TonyC789@aol.com 36) BonesWest by Ralph Bigelow 37) Re: Slide away from bell by "Les Benedict" 38) Re: Finger on the bell by "Les Benedict" 39) Re: Finger on the bell by Peter Soukup 40) Re: question by Atlbrvsnt@aol.com 41) Re: Tune it or Die by "Dave Mackey" 42) Fwd: Slide away from bell by EMRose79@aol.com 43) George Roberts Models by Roger Carmichael 44) Re:George Roberts Models by "Denver D. Seifried" 45) RE: Trigger hitting chin by John Capon 46) Re: Finger on the bell by "Daniel Pliskin" 47) Re: Finger on the bell by "Dynamic Music" 48) Re: Tune it or Die by Dave Tall 49) Re: Finger on the bell by Philbne@aol.com 50) Re: George Roberts Models by SFTrombone@aol.com 51) Re: Playing sharp by SFTrombone@aol.com From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:12:07 +0100 From: Tim Dowling To: Neobopr@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: ETW 2000 is in the books! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000322131207.0081e160@pop.casema.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 23:37 03/21/00 EST, Neobopr@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 3/21/00 3:48:47 PM, neobopr@aol.com writes: > >>Most of us from the other service bands felt very sorry for her. She seemed >>very nervous almost like she could hardly get notes to speak. I have >>a feeling she knew that she was way out of her league. I hope she has >>a better time the rest of the year. > >When I re-read what I wrote, it sounds sympathetic to me, not harsh. We >really did feel sorry for her. It seemed like she was battling with the >basics all of her portion of the program. Notes literally would not speak >and pitches would not center. > >Artist/Clinician for >Yamaha-Jeff Adams > > I can think of other (better) ways of showing sympathy than reporting her supposed problems to the trombone-l. I think it's a perfectly good unwritten law of professional courtesy not to criticise your colleagues publically. I'm not talking about professional critics here, but 'colleagues'. sincerely Tim Dowling Residentie Orchestra, The Hague NL Tim Dowling Den Haag NL From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:55:35 -0400 From: Craig Parmerlee To: Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000322075107.00adfe30@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have a really stupid question. How does one "find" 3rd position by touching the bell? There is not one "3rd position". There are many different 3rd positions depending on the note being played. How does touching the bell accomplish anything, other than perhaps encouraging the player to be out of tune? Another dumb question. For all the bell touchers who are trying to break the habit, why don't you simply set your bell at a wider angle for awhile so you can't reach it with your fingers? If that doesn't work, try electrifying the bell. That should do it. From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:42:01 -0500 (EST) From: David Molter To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Fingering the bell Message-ID: <380324513.953732521475.JavaMail.root@web31.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My first teacher whacked my right hand with a pencil every time I stuck out a finger to touch the bell. It didn't stop me. What DID help me was to concentrate on holding the slide at the very tips of my index and middle fingers. Unless you have your slide very close to the bell, this usually solves the problem because there's just not that much finger to stick out. My 11-year-old son very seldom whacks the bell, mainly because he puts his horn together with the slide at least twice as far from the bell as I do. When I pick up his horn, it feels very strange to me but he likes it that way. His hands are nowhere near as big as mine, but it works for him. The biggest habit I have to break with him is that he consistently puts his thumb vertically behind the slide handle, which reduces his reach (make a fist and stick up your thumb -- that's his usual grip). Although he's been playing almost daily for 18 months, he still does this right out of the box. Both I and his teacher have! to remind him constantly to hold the slide with thumb and fingertips. I tried taping a metal guitar fingerpick on the bar with the pick part bent back so he couldn't slide his thumb up, but the tape would come loose and he'd waste half his lesson playing with the pick. So I took it off. Somewhat off the topic -- I'm playing a nearly new Bach 36BO with the flat valve trigger. When I put the bell close enough to the slide to alow me to put my left index finger over the mouthpice receiver, the trigger paddle hits my chin. Anyoneelse have this happen, or do I have along chin, a long paddel, or both? Dave Molter Pittsburgh, PA From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:07:28 -0500 From: "John McVey" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Fingering the bell Message-ID: <852568AA.004D7C8D.00@m-ms03.frb.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline This is a habit that many trombonists don't even realize they have. I never even thought about it until I took a lesson with Sam Burtis a couple of years ago and that was the first thing he honed in on. It really is a hinderance when playing fast passages in any genre of music. If you touch the bell, it can't help but break the flow of the slide. However, in my opinion, when playing do-nuts or half-notes in chorale sections, if touching the bell while adjusting your pitch between 2+ and 4- is comforting for you, by all means go for it. If it helps you tune, it can't be all bad. BTW, if you missed Milt Stevens' presentation called "Tune it or Die" with the National Symphony 'Bone section at the ETW this past weekend, you missed a great presentation of a most difficult subject. John From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:21:51 -0800 From: "Kathy Green" To: Subject: re: Finger on the Bell Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I learned Euphonium before Trombone. I picked trombone up mostly on my own, and just "naturally" used the bell to help me find 3rd and 4th position and to play better in tune. I have played on a number of different trombones and have found this nasty habit very detrimental going from one horn to another - especially going from tenor to bass or vice versa. One of the best jass players I knew in college (played much like Watrous), put his finger on the bell, and it never slowed him down. We ALL know we should teach kids NOT to do it, and we do. Once a habit is started like that, it's hard to break. Same with incorrect thumb position for clarinet and flute, RH pinky for trumpet, drumstick holding, etc. Kathy Green From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:41:03 -0600 From: Jay Heltzer To: trombone Subject: Christian Lindberg Message-ID: <38D8DB7E.FA99FE87@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Morning List, I have seen in two different places that Christian Lindberg will be in Ft. Wayne, IN this saturday. Does anyone have anymore information than that? I would like to finally hear him play, but Ft. Wayne is a fairly sizeable town. thank you, Jay From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:58:34 -0500 (EST) From: David Molter To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: criticism/reviewing Message-ID: <380660649.953737114450.JavaMail.root@web30.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On the issue of criticism: I'm in the somewhat unique position of having experienced music criticism from both sides: I was a professional musician for 20 years (and I still play as an amateur), and I also was an entertainment editor who wrote concert and album reviews. I've always drawn a line between criticism and reviewing. To me, a reviewer can be you, your mother or your Aunt Edna because reviews are merely opinions. Critics, to my way of thinking, are people who have been trained in the art that they cover for magazines, newspapers, etc. They have a solid grounding in film, or music, or art, or dance, which makes them qualified to pick apart performances on technical grounds -- that someone missed a note or a step. Reviewers belong firmly in the "I know what I like" school. They sometimes don't understand exactly why it is someone's music or art makes them feel good, but they like it. They're not always experts: sometimes they must write a review to justify getting the free ticket. I once worked! at a newspaper where our music "critic" reviewed a concert, making sure to mention the glowing perfromance turned in by the group's founding guitarist. Trouble was, the founding guitarist had died two year previously. She had missed this small detail. She was the publisher's daughter. Critics, on the other hand, usually know exactly why they hated something, or liked it. A critic can sometimes be persuaded to admit that although a performance was technically flawed, it still moved the masses. However, I've usually found reviewers to be unwilling to budge from a viewpoint that something was great, even though the plot made no sense, or the violins were out of tune. As a performer, I always hated being slammed by a reviewer who didn't understand what was going on in the music. It was the Dick Clark "Rate the Record" school of reviewing: Never mind that the lyrics endorsed child-beating, "I liked it cause it was easy to dance to." But I also knew that not every listener would dig polyrhythms, or understand whatever grand vision it was that drove the music we played that particular night. As Sly Stone said: "Different strokes for different folks." I also hated being slammed by a critic, but if I played a wrong note, well ... When I wrote for newspapers, using the distinction outlined above, I classed myself as a music critic but a reviewer of all other art forms. Howvever, I hated it when readers would call me the day after a concert and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about because I mentioned that the guitar player blew some notes, or that the singers were out of tune all night. Invariably, their reasoning was that "25,000 people loved the show. You're an ass." That didn't change the fact that the guitarist blew notes and the singers hit right notes only by accident, but I grew tired of trying to make my point. One caller said I should be ashamed that I had made the guitar player feel bad. "He's probably in a hotel room somewhere now wanting to kill himself because of your review." I pointed out that a review in a 25,000 circulation paper in western PA was not likely to induce suicide. Maybe I was wrong. But the review was not. I don't believe in holding back a statement of fact to save the feelings of a professional performer. If F# is written, F natural is wrong. It's not a matter of interpretation. Opinions can sometimes be softened to save the young and to avoid discouraging a kid who tries hard but is just having a bad day. To have someone slam you when you've done your best and hit all the notes correctly is tough, but it happens. And most professional performers learn to live with it. I try to stay away from criticizing interpretation, because waht I thought made the piece drag or sound sappy may have been precisely what the performer wanted. It's tough to know when to express an opinion, not only in music but also in life. Sometimes a closed mouth is appropriate. Sometimes when there is nothing nice to be said, the nothing nice needs to be said. I won't begrudge someone for stating an opinion if they are willing to take the heat from those who don't agree. I don't need to point out that there is so much political correctness now that it's difficult to make any statement without offending someone. In the old days (five years ago) firing off a snotty letter and not being able to get it back from the mailbox affected only the sender and the recipient -- unless the recipient made copies and posted them by the water cooler. But the Internet and groups like this have introduced the possibility of accidentally hitting "reply all" -- so instead of sending your slam of Dou Yeo only to your Aunt Edna, you've sent it to Doug and everyone in Sri Lanka, offending Doug worldwide with a mouse click. More than ever, there is no ! substitute for thinking before speaking (or typing). Dave Molter Pittsburgh, PA From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:38:42 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: andy@coastside.net Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:41 PM 3/21/00 -0800, you wrote: >At 9:26 PM -0600 3/21/00, James Yardley wrote: >> I'm wondering what the general thought is on putting the finger on the >>bell when playing the trombone. Do most trombonists' do it, or is it an >>unforgivable sin? > >Issac Stern taps his toes. He's still pretty good. :-) > >Andy ================ If he used his toes to finger the notes, he wouldn't be. S. From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:20:36 +0000 From: Eric and Candice Swanson Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trigger hitting chin Message-ID: <38D8905D.FBD3741D@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Molter wrote: > Somewhat off the topic -- I'm playing a nearly new Bach 36BO with the flat valve trigger. When I put the bell close enough to the slide to alow me to put my left index finger over the mouthpice receiver, the trigger paddle hits my chin. Anyoneelse have this happen, or do I have along chin, a long paddel, or both? > Dave, I have this problem with a lot of different horns. I guess it has to do with the length and width of your chin. Also, does the trigger seem to be pretty far back, i.e. you have to bend your thumb back to reach it? It can be moved down to make it easier to reach and not hit your chin with some modification. Visit a really good repair technician. Eric Swanson From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:43 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:22:26 -0500 From: "John McVey" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trigger hitting chin Message-ID: <852568AA.005459F0.00@m-ms03.frb.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dave, I have a Bach 42K with a shaped trigger paddle. It doesn't hit my chin, but if I don't keep my beard trimmed on the left side of my face, it sure is distracting when the hair gets caught in the trigger, not to mention that it hurts like hell. John BTW, I liked your excellent comments on reviewing/criticism. David Molter wrote: > Somewhat off the topic -- I'm playing a nearly new Bach 36BO with the flat valve trigger. When I put the bell close enough to the slide to alow me to put my left index finger over the mouthpice receiver, the trigger paddle hits my chin. Anyoneelse have this happen, or do I have along chin, a long paddel, or both? > Dave, I have this problem with a lot of different horns. I guess it has to do with the length and width of your chin. Also, does the trigger seem to be pretty far back, i.e. you have to bend your thumb back to reach it? It can be moved down to make it easier to reach and not hit your chin with some modification. Visit a really good repair technician. Eric Swanson From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:27:11 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <38D8E645.B7855DED@bestweb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Antonio Henrique Seixas wrote: > Dear Listers: > > > Professor Gagliardi, my teacher during several years, also says that for > those people who likes to put the finger on the bell there might be a > special trombone with seven bells. One bell for each position... Antonio- I was reminded of a story that one of my old teachers, Fred "Moe" Snyder, told me about a year or two ago... It seems that a certain junior high (about 11-13 years old, for our non-US listers) student was having trouble finding positions, so he enlisted the help of Mr. Snyder. He got Fred to play his(the student's) horn, and the kid marked on the inner slide with a waterproof marker where the outer slide was! (Wait, it gets better!!!) The next lesson, the kid comes in, and he had taken a hacksaw, and lightly scored the inner slide with it!!! "The marks were wearing off, and this way, I don't have to look at the slide!" You can't make stories like this up!!! Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:28:11 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "'Adolphus Sprott'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: gold mouthpieces Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Weston, I've had about 20 mouthpieces replated, so I'll tell you why I do what I do. I happen to like the look of silver, but prefer the feel of gold. Two tones are pretty and add a nice touch to a mouthpiece that you are paying too much for anyway. In fact, I think that some of the most beautiful mouthpieces made are the old Constellation mouthpieces of the 1950s. If I had a two (or three) piece mouthpiece like the DE, I would certainly have the rim plated gold and the cup silver. I would also have the shank plated since I personally think that the raw brass makes the DE look like a plumbing fitting rather than a part of a musical instrument. So why are some of my mouthpieces all gold plated? Simply a matter of cost. I use one piece mouthpieces (Conn and Schilke) and it costs as much or less to have the whole thing gold plated as it does to have the technician mask off part of it so it looks pretty. I have also found that plating companies are not Burger King (have it your way). If you make it easy for them, they get it back to you in two weeks. If you want a bunch of special stuff, you can go mine the brass ore, smelt it, cast it and machine your own mouthpiece before you see the one you sent them. The other alternative is to find a local that will work with you. I don't use this route, again because of cost. Having a mouthpiece gold plated locally will cost me twice what Anderson charges (even after shipping both ways). BTW, I stated above that I prefer the feel of gold to silver. Recently I started using a Schilke mouthpiece, both on my trumpet and on my trombone. These are the best feeling mouthpieces of any that I have ever used, and they are both silver. The finish is just perfect, not just on the rim, but all over. You just don't find that kind of quality too much these days. I can't even imagine what a gold Schilke would feel like. Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: Adolphus Sprott [SMTP:weslanke@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:34 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: gold mouthpieces > > I recently bought a DE mouthpiece with a gold rim, and I love the feel of > the gold rim as compared to the silver. I have seen some people who have > a > mouthpiece that is entirely gold. I understand needing the soft feel of a > gold rim, but what is the purpose of having a gold cup and shank? Is this > just a fashion thing, or is there a real advantage/disadvantage to having > gold plating on the cup and shank of your mouthpiece? > > Weston Sprott From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:32:11 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Trigger hitting chin Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have the same problem with my son's Holton TR-158. I get my beard caught in the trigger every time I play it. It messes me up a lot worse than the old finger on the bell trick. Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: John McVey [SMTP:john.mcvey@frb.gov] > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 9:22 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: Trigger hitting chin > > Dave, > > I have a Bach 42K with a shaped trigger paddle. It doesn't hit my > chin, > but if I don't keep my beard trimmed on the left side of my face, it sure > is > distracting when the hair gets caught in the trigger, not to mention that > it > hurts like hell. > > John > > BTW, I liked your excellent comments on reviewing/criticism. > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:36:14 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: wbarrett@bestweb.net Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <38D8E86E.436DDFB9@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Barrett wrote: > I was reminded of a story that one of my old teachers, Fred "Moe" Snyder, told > me about a year or two ago... > It seems that a certain junior high (about 11-13 years old, for our non-US > listers) student was having trouble finding positions, so he enlisted the help > of Mr. Snyder. He got Fred to play his(the student's) horn, and the kid marked > on the inner slide with a waterproof marker where the outer slide was! (Wait, > it gets better!!!) > The next lesson, the kid comes in, and he had taken a hacksaw, and lightly > scored the inner slide with it!!! "The marks were wearing off, and this way, I > don't have to look at the slide!" > You can't make stories like this up!!! GREAT STORY! I had a similar happening with a well meaning father of one of my Beginning Violinists. He saw she was having a heard time with fingering so he took the instrument to his favorite guitar builder and had frets installed. Needles to say that particular violin never produced sound any longer. We couldn't fit a bridge tall enough and still allow the player to press the strings to the fingerboard. (:>)) Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:55:29 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Criticism Message-ID: <38D8ECE4.E4FCE9F6@bestweb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave's remarks on criticism were right on the money: we as human beings should stop and think before we do something we might regret. If we did, we'd probably never have heard of Columbine High School or Monica Lewinsky. Before it gets too serious in here, Dave's remarks also reminded me of a story I read in "Jazz Anecdotes" by Bill Crow. (If you haven't read any of Bill's stuff, get this! In no time you'll be ROTFLOL!) "Bobby Hackett was known for never saying anything bad about anyone. When a friend insisted that he make some comment on Adolf Hitler, he thought he had him. Bobby said, 'Well, he was the best in his field.'" Now lets stop being so serious and go practice! Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:04:36 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: gold mouthpieces Message-ID: <200003221607.JAA25956@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: JoshuaSL@aol.com trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from JoshuaSL@aol.com 03/22/00 12:28am EST > Another possibility, and probably the more logical one in my mind, is > simple economics. Plating places an incredibly thin layer of one metal on > top of another. Thus, for a mouthpiece, the actual quantity of gold would > make little difference from the point of view of the manufacturer. The > process of electroplating, however, is simplified by plating the whole > mouthpiece. I remember in high school chem lab silver plating a penny. > While not of the quality of commercial plating, it was fairly simple. It is > probably quite a bit more expensive to plate part of a mouthpiece (Yamaha > Signature Series eg: Doug Yeo's) that a mouthpiece as a whole. In fact, I > wish I knew exactly how they did that. It's trivial. You use a varnish over the area you want masked off. The varnish is an insulator, so no gold is deposited on the varnish covered areas. After plating, you remove the varnish with your favorite organic solvent. I recommend acetone, but MEK or about anything stronger than alcohols will work. > Just as a side note to this, one of > the reasons gold plating is so much more expensive than silver plating is > gold doesn't plate well over brass. You will notice gold plated mouthpieces > are first plated in silver, and then plated AGAIN in gold. . .two platings, > twice the metal used, higher price. Bah. You just noted that the cost of the metal plated is really NOT a factor -- the costs are mostly in the setup. You want gold, it has to go over silver (or nickel: Wick mouthpieces are gold plated over nickel), so it has be plated twice. The costs are mostly set-up, not the metals themselves. Incidentally, when plating with gold, you usually use a gold electrode, so you keep the solution concentration (relatively) constant. > As a side note, notice the DE mouthpieces have raw brass shanks. Why? > Well, you never touch the shank to your lips in playing and it will be worn > off over time by receiver contact anyways. True enough, but it's still unattractive. I don't believe that instruments must be beautiful to be good, but there is no question that the visual aspect is important to some audience members. Getting a shank plated is simple enough that if I played a DE mouthpiece, I'd plate my shanks. Your mileage will vary, of course. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:11:36 -0500 From: David Buckley To: john.mcvey@frb.gov Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Tune it or Die Message-ID: <38D8F0B8.18ED43F0@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After listening to that presentation, I have had to make 22 new scratches on my slide to mark all the variations. Dave. John McVey wrote: > > BTW, if you missed Milt Stevens' presentation called "Tune it or Die" with the > National Symphony 'Bone section at the ETW this past weekend, you missed a great > presentation of a most difficult subject. > > John From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:05:29 -0500 From: David Buckley To: seixas@whouse.com.br Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <38D8EF49.B88BC742@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now there's an idea whose time has come. Who will be the first out? Lets go Conn, Bach, Yamaha, Shires or???? Dave Buckley. Antonio Henrique Seixas wrote: > Dear Listers: > > This is a very common habit here in Brazil, that I simply hate. There is > another big problem : there are some trombones that have the bell a little > bit down because their slides are smaller. So when you change the horn some > people becomes crazy, because the third position is not at the same place!! > Professor Gagliardi, my teacher during several years, also says that for > those people who likes to put the finger on the bell there might be a > special trombone with seven bells. One bell for each position... > All the best, > > Antonio Henrique Seixas > Bass Trombone - Brazilian Symphony Orchestra - www.osb.com.br > Weril Musical Instruments Artist - www.weril.com.br > Brazilian Trombone Association General Secretary > seixas@whouse.com.br From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:19:51 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Finger on the bell Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain It will have to be Yamaha. Conn won't build it unless there are at least 1000 advanced orders. If Bach builds it, each bell will sound different. And if Shires builds it, we won't see the first prototype until 2045. Jokingly yours, Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: David Buckley [SMTP:davebuckley@sympatico.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 10:05 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: Finger on the bell > > Now there's an idea whose time has come. Who will be the first out? Lets > go > Conn, Bach, Yamaha, Shires or???? > > Dave Buckley. > > Antonio Henrique Seixas wrote: > > > Dear Listers: > > > > This is a very common habit here in Brazil, that I simply hate. There is > > another big problem : there are some trombones that have the bell a > little > > bit down because their slides are smaller. So when you change the horn > some > > people becomes crazy, because the third position is not at the same > place!! > > Professor Gagliardi, my teacher during several years, also says that for > > those people who likes to put the finger on the bell there might be a > > special trombone with seven bells. One bell for each position... > > All the best, > > > > Antonio Henrique Seixas > > Bass Trombone - Brazilian Symphony Orchestra - www.osb.com.br > > Weril Musical Instruments Artist - www.weril.com.br > > Brazilian Trombone Association General Secretary > > seixas@whouse.com.br > From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:18:29 -0500 From: james.c.shake@us.pwcglobal.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Finger/thumb on the bell Message-ID: <852568AA.0059AECA.00@intlnamsmtp20.us.pw.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline I was reprimanded in college for a variation of the finger on the bell - I would put my thumb out to start a note in 4th position! My professor would yell out THUMB! (BTW, I didn't start trombone until 9th grade - I played trumpet before that!) I still catch myself doing that from time to time. Anyone else do this? ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:27:16 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Tune it or Die Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Why mark the slide positions? Any string player could tell you that you use vibrato to cover the fact you have no idea what note you're playing . . . . ;-) Chris >After listening to that presentation, I have had to make 22 new >scratches on my >slide to mark all the variations. > >Dave. > >John McVey wrote: > > > > > BTW, if you missed Milt Stevens' presentation called "Tune it or >Die" with the > > National Symphony 'Bone section at the ETW this past weekend, you >missed a great > > presentation of a most difficult subject. > > > > John _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com Visit The Mouthpiece Exchange at http://www.waageworks.com _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:44:17 -0500 From: "MUCS Jeffrey B. Diehl" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: gold mouthpieces Message-ID: <003c01bf941d$de4094c0$22057983@JeffreyBDiehl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clason" > > . . . notice the DE mouthpieces have raw brass shanks. > . . .there is no question that the visual aspect is > important to some audience members. Getting a shank plated is simple enough that if I played a DE mouthpiece, I'd plate my shanks. I have had shanks of DE mouthpieces silver plated. His own words on the subject were, "Don't show that to anyone, or everybody will want it!" A few days ago, he showed me his own mouthpiece, and guess what - a silver plated shank . . . If anyone orders a shank from him; be sure and mention silver plating, and tell him I suggested it! :-) All in good clean fun . . . Jeff Diehl From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:54:48 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: basstbn@waageworks.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Tune it or Die Message-ID: <38D8FAD8.52E77CF1@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Waage wrote: > > Why mark the slide positions? Any string player could tell you that > you use vibrato to cover the fact you have no idea what note you're > playing . . . . > Yeah, but that 3" to 5" slide vib., I need sometimes just doesn't fit with Brahms or Beethoven. ('>)) Welcome back Chris! Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:02:13 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Fingering the bell Message-ID: <20000322170213.92196.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >My first teacher whacked my right hand with a pencil every time I stuck out >a finger to touch the bell. It didn't stop me. I was wondering how putting your finger on the bell, in third position would slow you down. Now I know. Itās the shear weight of all those bandages, from having your teacher hit your hand, every time you touch the bell that actually slows you down. Thanks for the hint. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:44:20 -0600 From: "Gesualdo@mindspring.com" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: ETW 2000 is in the books! Message-ID: <200003221746.MAA23707@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Beth Lewis wrote: > I'm concerned about, but the fact that anything written in this forum can > be forwarded to anyone (including the subject of the criticism) is why I > questioned the judgment of posting such matter. and then ERNIE PAUL LUKAS wrote: >I thought that it was understood that trombone-l postings are open for >the world to see. I have no problems with an opinion being expressed >as long as it is not a personal attack. >Get over it. If you cannot accept criticism or unfavorable reviews, >then don't perform in public. Has the liberal's "creeping rot" concept >of political correctness extended to music business as well? This is a pretty good example of misconstruing principle to support personal opinion. First, I don't think ANYONE was suggesting that personal opinions be limited to banal pleasantries or disinfected, politically correct double-talk. I think what is being expressed here is a concern for the feelings of others within our community - it is decency and compassion. The original poster on this issue (Jeff was his name, I believe) said, "I only had one problem while there. Listening to Deborah Weisz play. Ouch." The use of "ouch" is the problem here. The colloquial use of terms such as "ouch" implies "GEEZ, what the heck was that disgusting noise, that insult to my ears by that talentless hack who shouldn't be here" - like it or not, that is what is clearly implied by the usage of those "pop culture" buzz terms. We all learn to speak from TV now so we pick up all our new terminology from Saturday Night Live and Malcolm in the Middle. Also, phrases like, "get over it", "give it a rest", and the newly popular "fuggedaboutit" (in all its myriad spellings) are more signs of the desensitizing of our culture toward the feelings of others. They are often used to cover up that fact that someone has little else to say, or feels intimidated by the immanent possibility of confrontation. We are not a culture of constructive confronters, we are a culture of covert back stabbers. What possible good does it do anyone to say something as negative and hurtful as "OUCH" about someone else's performance. Do you really think that the rest of us are not able to hear a performance that had some trouble? Do you really think that the performer did not know there was trouble? Did the media or his republican detractors really think that the country did not understand Clinton's "trouble" with Lewinsky and had to drag us through it every day and night till it backfired and we actually felt a bit of sympathy for the President? We need to learn to know where limits should be set. Self censure and thoughtful editing is a sign of maturity. Blurting out anything that is on your mind and then crying that your first amendment rights are being violated if others find it offensive is not a sign of maturity. It is, however, a sign of the times. Think of your worst personal failure and imagine having to hear the half-baked, partially thought out criticisms of others who know only a fraction of the story. Not pretty is it? Doug Yeo brought up some examples from Slonimsky's Lexicon which illustrate part of the story. The other part is this. Reger may have been "hard" enough to accept the criticism and actually dole out some witty retorts, but, in the case of Bruckner, public criticism as nasty as what Sloninmsky sites was devastating to him. He was a very meek and mild soul who was profoundly vulnerable to harsh criticism. The argument that he should "get over it" or "wear tougher skin" is rather ego-centric and myopic. Should the artists of our culture, some of whom require that same vulnerability to create be expected to "toughen up" and get as bitter as the rest of us? I don't think so. I think it would be far better for us to have whatever opinions we want, express them freely, but be VERY CAREFUL what gets expressed in public fora that is not criticism of a constructive nature. Just exercise a bit of compassion. Is it required in our constitution? No, but it is a requirement for being a decent person. mc From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:51:34 -0700 (MST) From: James Scott To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Fingers on the bell Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I remember one of my first lessons with Ed Herman (the now-retired NY Phil. principal) - when my fingers reached for the bell around third position he said "you're a BELL-TOUCHER" with such a disdainful tone that I never did it again. His practical advice on the subject besides the slowing down of slide motion, and the way that it takes the ears out of your quest for good intonation was - "you don't want to be on a $200/hour recording date someday, and have the engineer saying -Where's that clanging sound coming from?". Jim Scott From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:44 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:19:20 -0600 From: Jeff Albert To: yardleys@prodigy.net Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <38D90EA2.2340D784@bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The finger on the bell is like any other fundamental concept. As beginners, we are better of if we can avoid it, but obviously it won't ruin you as a trombonist. We still tell brass players not to puff their cheeks, but Dizzy Gillespie did all right. Jeff James Yardley wrote: > Dear Listers, > > I hope I'm not opening a big can of worms here, but I have to share this > with you. > > Yesterday and today, I had the pleasure of hearing Conrad Herwig and > Brian Lynch play concerts at the University of Minnesota - Duluth. I won't > even try to describe how amazing Conrad is because I know I couldn't even > come close with words. I have his "Latin Side of Coltrane" CD and I knew he > was great, but I was not expecting anything of that caliber. I even worked > up the nerve to go talk to him and have him sign my CD cover. It was really > great! > > Now about this nasty habit that some trombonists have (or is it). I've > been taught to never put my finger on the bell when going to 3rd position > (or any position for that matter). But yesterday, when I was sitting in my > chair with my jaw on the floor listening to Conrad, I did a double take when > he put his finger on his bell. I couldn't believe my eyes. Conrad Herwig > put his finger on the bell and continued to do so the rest of the night. > This is in NO WAY meant to be a "dis" on Mr. Herwig. He's an outstanding > player! Simply amazing. > > I'm wondering what the general thought is on putting the finger on the > bell when playing the trombone. Do most trombonists' do it, or is it an > unforgivable sin? > > James Yardley > Bass Trombone -- Jeff Albert "Every song has a soul." Keith Jarrett From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:17:11 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: "Wayne Dyess" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: jazz/improv Message-ID: <00a101bf9430$89ce4140$135e063e@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Dyess To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 5:50 PM Subject: Re: jazz/improv > Over 80% of jazz tunes include > the "ii-V-I" progression. Learn that, and you'll be able to play a > LOT of stuff!!!! When I read this statement, I thought 80% was a rather conservative figure. I would have guessed the figure to be closer to 99%. Most songs have a II-V-I or related IV-V-I in their final 4 bars. Then there are the so-called tri-tone substitute variations such as II-IIb-I, VIb-V-I or VIb-IIb-I. Some songs like "Laura" have a whole series of sequenced II-V-I cadences. But I made the mistake of thinking of standard songs that are used in jazz improv. When I looked through the Real Book, I was quite amazed at just how many jazz-specific compositions do Not contain a single II-V-I or substitute, though there are others like "Giant Steps" that have a whole bunch of them, wandering apparently aimlessly from one key to another. And then it struck me that probably the most used chord sequence in jazz might well be the 12-bar blues, who's basic changes do not contain a II-V-I either. Maybe Wayne's figure of 80% might well be on the high side after all. > 2) PLAY jazz. You can't expect to be able to play improvisation > without spending some time practicing it. Jazz improv doesn't come > from heavenly intervention. Hard work, and PRACTICE must prevail. > Learn every configuration of scale you can come up with. ...Though practice does not necessarily mean hard work. It's only hard work if you don't want to do it. When you are striving for perfection in a subject which is the sole object of your desire, the many hours of effort you spend learning and improving your skills in it actually become pleasurable. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk http://www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:24:28 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: slide.rule@adios.co.uk Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: jazz/improv Message-ID: <200003221924.OAA09263@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:17 PM 3/22/00 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: k, I was quite amazed at just how >many jazz-specific compositions do Not contain a single II-V-I or >substitute, though there are others like "Giant Steps" that have a whole >bunch of them, wandering apparently aimlessly from one key to another. =================== Actually, "Giant Steps" is one of the LEAST "aimless" chord sequences in all of jazz. It's based on three major keys a major third apart...hence the "Giant Steps" title...in the original key, they are B, G, and Eb. It's a masterpiece of harmonic construction, first going down in major thirds (from B to G to Eb), then up a major third and down again in major thirds (G to Eb to B), then going back up in major thirds (Eb to G to B) until it comes to a momentary rest at Eb (its ostensible key), and then the whole pattern begins again. An amazing piece, almost a harmonic sculpture. S. From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:31:20 -0500 From: "Art Triggs" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Fingers on the bell Message-ID: <002301bf9435$34700f80$ccf19298@yr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Interesting, John Clark did the same thing, using just a bit different language. Got the desired result though....;-)> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Scott" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 12:51 PM Subject: Fingers on the bell > > I remember one of my first lessons with Ed Herman (the now-retired NY > Phil. principal) - when my fingers reached for the bell around third > position he said "you're a BELL-TOUCHER" with such a disdainful tone that > I never did it again. His practical advice on the subject besides the > slowing down of slide motion, and the way that it takes the ears out of > your quest for good intonation was - "you don't want to be on a $200/hour > recording date someday, and have the engineer saying -Where's that > clanging sound coming from?". > > Jim Scott > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:06:55 -0600 From: "Douglas Kilen" To: "trombone-L" Subject: question Message-ID: <00c901bf9442$8edf1440$2c12e0d1@mark> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C6_01BF9410.433FB760"
Has anyone had any experience with the Blessing B-88 or B-78?  I'm considering selling or trading my King 3B Concert valve trombone to get into another slide trombone, and the price on the Blessings is quite attractive.  I've looked at new and used 3B slides for my valve setup, but they're just too darned expensive.  Any ideas?  Thanks in advance...
Douglas Kilen
Superior, WI
 From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:40:12 -0700 From: Roger Karren To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: B78/B88 Trombones Message-ID: <6E031E06378BD311AEF20090273CE1BA3E14D7@el-postino.s-vision.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF944F.996C7594"

<<Has anyone had any experience with the Blessing B-88 or B-78?>>

 

Yep!

 

I had a Blessing B78 a couple years ago, manufactured in 1993.  Plays well, but VERY bright.  It’s a .525 bore, Conn 88H copy but smaller bore size.  Also built to accommodate smaller hands. Brass gauge is a lot thicker to withstand the rigors, (abuse) which is common among intermediate students.  Worked great for Marine Corps Marching Band, which is what I used it for.  It projected very well, and could withstand the abuse of a Marine…  J

 

Smaller mouthpieces produce desirable results for me, so I used to use a Bach 12C with a Bach 36B.  To compensate for it’s, (the B78’s), brightness, I found a Bach 12, without the ‘C’ indicating a deeper cup, and still wasn’t quite enough, so I had it gold-plated, (I know, another thread), and that produced favorable results.  So your mouthpiece may not produce similar results.

 

Basically, my opinion is that they are well made for their purpose, which is for the intermediate player.  However, I would prefer to use a B88 or a B78 in marching band than my 1966 Conn 88H.

 

Anyway, there’s an opinion…  I get the feeling that it will be controversial as well…  haha

 

Roger

 From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:29:20 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'kdowdy@oppd.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Trigger hitting chin Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yea Ken, I bet it throws your rest counting off too! :-) Rick Marple San Antonio TX -----Original Message----- From: DOWDY, KENNETH S [mailto:kdowdy@oppd.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 9:32 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Trigger hitting chin I have the same problem with my son's Holton TR-158. I get my beard caught in the trigger every time I play it. It messes me up a lot worse than the old finger on the bell trick. Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: John McVey [SMTP:john.mcvey@frb.gov] > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 9:22 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: Trigger hitting chin > > Dave, > > I have a Bach 42K with a shaped trigger paddle. It doesn't hit my > chin, > but if I don't keep my beard trimmed on the left side of my face, it sure > is > distracting when the hair gets caught in the trigger, not to mention that > it > hurts like hell. > > John > > BTW, I liked your excellent comments on reviewing/criticism. > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:51:13 -0800 From: "Rodger Hinson" To: "trombone list" Subject: RE: question Message-ID: <000401bf9459$816bf780$7e850dd0@rodgerhi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Has anyone had any experience with the Blessing B-88 or B-78? I'm considering selling or trading my King 3B Concert valve >trombone to get into another slide trombone, and the price on the Blessings is quite attractive. I've looked at new and >used 3B slides for my valve setup, but they're just too darned expensive. Any ideas? Thanks in advance... >Douglas Kilen >Superior, WI I've had my B-88 for about 10 years now (including a recent 5-year lay off from playing). It was a great horn for me when I was an 8th grader stepping up from a King student model, and served well through high school. During my brief stint in Middle Tennessee State University's music program, though, David Loucky (my teacher) suggested that it was time to upgrade to a better quality instrument. After giving a few other horns a try (mostly Bachs and Conns), I realized that he was right. And as I get back into playing on a regular basis, I'll go trolling the music shops to find a new trombone that suits me. In short, the B-88 is a good intermediate horn. Rodger Hinson Las Vegas, NV From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:00:14 EST From: TonyC789@aol.com To: TubaEuph@onelist.com, dja1@axe.humboldt.edu, brass@quartz.gly.fsu.edu, philip.chevallard@peterson.af.mil, Chevalla@aol.com, Subject: Buying Euphonium(s) Message-ID: <96.289c3d1.260ac69e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, Boys and girls, after months of searching, I have found THE euphonium for me. As you may or may not remember, I wanted to replace my beloved YEP-321S (5-valve) with a compensating horn. I started with a Willson and a Yamaha 642. The sample Willson I had, had BAD (bad!) pitch problems. The f in the staff was unplayable and the 6th partial notes were somewhat sharp. The 642 has a lovely sound, but was stuffy in the low range and lacked a certain, je ne s'ai quoi. A friend brought over his new Besson (967?). The sound was GLORIOUS! The low range was really stuffy and the 6th partial notes UNUSABLE (for me!). I sent the Yamaha and the Willson back, and got two more Willsons (2900S), another 642 and the new Mirafone (I don't know the model number). The second Yamaha was better than the first one, but still lacked the liveliness that I was searching for and the low notes seemed rather dull. I liked the Mirafone, good pitch, good low notes, but for me the sound was a bit bright. Being a tuba player naturally, I tend to 'under attenuate' on euphonium, so darkness is a prerequesite for me. BOTH the Willsons were OUTSTANDING instruments, with one being SLIGHTLY superior in the low register. I need to have good low notes (below low e) because I do the tenor tuba work in the San Jose Symphony and the Low C has to roar for Strauss. Either one of the Willsons would be a great purchase. Having said that: I have found Nirvana in the new Hirsbrunner 'Exclusiv' Model. This horn is everything I need in a tenor tuba. Warm luscious sound, fabulous low notes and pitch is such that I don't have to give it a second thought. This baby has the 12" bell, with the large open throat. Other features: 3 receivers, got a Besson mouthpiece you like, put in the 'European' reciever; the 51D you used with your 321? No prob. put in the small receiver. Being a doubler, I am now comfortably using my Doug Elliott bass bone mouthpiece; 116 rim, G cup, G8 shank, using the bass receiver. I like the case, too. Not heavy as an anvil, like the Willson case, yet sturdy enough to really protect the instrument. My preferences: 1 - Hirsbrunner (bring your wallet!) 2 - Willson 2900S This is a GREAT horn. 3-4 (tie) Yamaha/Mirafone. These horns are equal, but different, and the price range is similar 5 - Besson 967. If they could fix the pitch, this horn would spring to the top. Thus ends a months-long saga for me to find the euph that would work for ME, in MY circumstances, working under the type of conditions I find MYSELF in. Happy Hunting! Tony Clements From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:25:47 -0800 From: Ralph Bigelow To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: BonesWest Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000322172031.009c8b20@pop.pophost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed We have added a page for BonesWest's 20th annual concert at NAMM 2000 to our Website. The addition displays the playlist and a few pictures. Link from the home page. Also, on the photos page, we added a pic of Ian Price, a recent visitor to BW, from Copenhagen. Ralph Bigelow rbigelow@akamail.com BonesWest Trombone choir boneswest@boneswest.org http://boneswest.org From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:54:35 -0800 From: "Les Benedict" To: "Jim Seaman" , Subject: Re: Slide away from bell Message-ID: <00ec01bf946a$bef47800$5b99b2d1@LesBenedict> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never asked Matt about why he assembles his horn with the bell section down off his shoulder, but have always assumed it's because of balance/weight. It Does balance better that way, and takes pressure off the left hand, even though I've never seen anyone else do it. Les Benedict lesbenedict@earthlink.net > The trombonist on the Tonight Show band (Matt Finders?) seems to have > his bell section about 3 times the usual distance away from his slide > section. > Out of curiousity can anyone explain the reason for this? From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:18:30 -0800 From: "Les Benedict" To: "James Yardley" , "Trombone-L forum." Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <00f701bf946e$171f3da0$5b99b2d1@LesBenedict> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Finger on the bell > Yesterday and today, I had the pleasure of hearing Conrad Herwig and > Brian Lynch play [snip] I've been taught to never put my finger on the bell when going to 3rd position > (or any position for that matter). But yesterday, when I was sitting in my > chair with my jaw on the floor listening to Conrad, I did a double take when > he put his finger on his bell > I'm wondering what the general thought is on putting the finger on the > bell when playing the trombone. Do most trombonists' do it, or is it an > unforgivable sin? I confess to having taught Conrad in his formative years, and I'm certain I taught him to Not use a finger to find the bell for any position, but who can fault him for doing it, considering how incredibly well he plays?? It's probably incidental. I occasionally find myself "checking" third or fourth position with a finger (after 45 years on the horn), but immediately dismiss it when I realize I'm doing it. It shouldn't be a crutch, that's all. At the very least, it might be used as a learning tool. Study with me, and I'll teach you not to do it [grin]. Les Benedict lesbenedict@earthlink.net http://expage.com/page/goldrushband From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:02:38 -0600 From: Peter Soukup To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > I confess to having taught Conrad in his formative years, and I'm certain I > taught him to Not use a finger to find the bell for any position, but who > can fault him for doing it, considering how incredibly well he plays?? It's > probably incidental. I occasionally find myself "checking" third or fourth > position with a finger (after 45 years on the horn), but immediately dismiss > it when I realize I'm doing it. It shouldn't be a crutch, that's all. At the > very least, it might be used as a learning tool. Study with me, and I'll > teach you not to do it [grin]. > > Les Benedict > lesbenedict@earthlink.net > http://expage.com/page/goldrushband > Here's what I've done. I took some tin snips and removed the portion of the bell where my finger would hit. It cured me of the habit, but my sound is missing something.... Pete Soukup psoukup@mindspring.com Grand Avenue Big Band The Moonlighters The Houndz St. Andrew's Brass Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble DuPage Symphony Orchestra (alternate) West Suburban Symphony (alternate) From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:13:32 EST From: Atlbrvsnt@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/22/00 4:06:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, dkilen@pressenter.com writes: > Has anyone had any experience with the Blessing B-88 or B-78? I'm > considering selling or trading my King 3B Concert valve trombone to get into > another slide trombone, and the price on the Blessings is quite attractive. > I've looked at new and used 3B slides for my valve setup, but they're just > too darned expensive. Any ideas? Thanks in advance... > Douglas Kilen > Superior, WI I own a B-88, and I basically agree with those who have spoken before me. I got mine 2 years ago at christmas, as a 10th grader. At that time, I was ignorant of its standing in the trombone world. At first, it was great to me, since i didn't know any better and wasn't good enough to tell the difference. Over the course of a year and a half or so, I grew into the large bore size and increasingly realized its shortcomings, albeit minor ones. However, these are enough to push it into the "intermediate" range. The B-88 is a very good intermediate horn, perhaps because it is the top of the Blessing line, allowing them to concentrate a lot of energy on it (?) but in any case, the slide is very good (mine has had moderate size dents taken out twice and plays like a virtually new slide) and the horn will hold up pretty well for things like marching, but watch out for the lacquer to come off, as i've seen on older examples. That's going to be the fate of mine, by the way, when I go to march at the University of Alabama next year. This horn is a very good value, and a very good horn, for the purpose it's made for and serves. ~Tommy Cox From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:45 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:25:02 -0500 From: "Dave Mackey" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Tune it or Die Message-ID: <002201bf9477$6183a620$ba43c7d0@DaveMackey> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > After listening to that presentation, I have had to make 22 new scratches on my > slide to mark all the variations. > > Dave. > > John McVey wrote: > > > > > BTW, if you missed Milt Stevens' presentation called "Tune it or Die" with the > > National Symphony 'Bone section at the ETW this past weekend, you missed a great > > presentation of a most difficult subject. Hear hear! I was so impressed with Milt's presentation that I had a tuner in my hands by the close of ETW, not necesarily the turbocharged $900 tuner that Milt and his section was endorsing, but a good tuner that I can raise my 14 cents or lower my 16 cents with. Dave Mackey From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:08:28 EST From: EMRose79@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Fwd: Slide away from bell Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_ea.33627b2.260af2bc_boundary" In a message dated 3/22/2000 3:31:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, dave@davemackey.com writes: << There's really no set rule on what angle you set your slide at; again it seems to be a matter of personal taste. I saw one trombonist at Eastern (I think she was with the Lititz Moravian Trombone Choir) playing left-handed, in fact. >> Wasn't there a symphony player a few decades ago that had only one arm (the left one)? Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:31:46 -0500 Received: from po.missouri.edu (po.missouri.edu [128.206.12.137]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v70.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:31:33 -0500 Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by po.missouri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA01219; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:31:32 -0600 Received: from ix.netcorps.com (ix.netcorps.com [207.1.125.106]) by po.missouri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA01134 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:31:00 -0600 Received: from DaveMackey (tc3-ccnj-111.ppp.cybercomm.net [208.199.67.111]) by ix.netcorps.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id DAA19038 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:19:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <000d01bf93f2$3886f2c0$6f43c7d0@DaveMackey> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:31:51 -0500 Reply-To: dave@davemackey.com Sender: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Dave Mackey" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Slide away from bell References: <38D82F66.E55C0A36@igs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > The trombonist on the Tonight Show band (Matt Finders?) seems to have > his bell section about 3 times the usual distance away from his slide > section. > Out of curiousity can anyone explain the reason for this? Matt Finders is obviously most comfortable playing with the horn that way. It almost appears that the slide section of his horn (which is a Conn straight horn, if I'm not mistaken) is flat in relation to the bell section. (Incidentally, a few years ago Matt missed some shows, so Kevin Eubanks had his brother Robin flown in from New York to fill in. It's remarkable with the show's insane production schedule of about 50 weeks per year that the show almost never has substitute musicians.) There's really no set rule on what angle you set your slide at; again it seems to be a matter of personal taste. I saw one trombonist at Eastern (I think she was with the Lititz Moravian Trombone Choir) playing left-handed, in fact. Dave Mackey From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:12:55 -0500 From: Roger Carmichael To: "trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu" Subject: George Roberts Models Message-ID: <38D999C6.E98130AA@netunlimited.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What brands and/or models of trombones has George Roberts played or endorsed over the years? Also, are any of the horns attributed to him from the 70's considered "collector items"? Roger Carmichael Bass Trombonist From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:38:46 -0500 From: "Denver D. Seifried" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re:George Roberts Models Message-ID: <001b01bf9481$ada7a380$73077fd8@dscomp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger: As far back as I can remember, the first album I have, "Meet Mr. Roberts" shows George playing a Conn 70-H. I also remember George was a clinician for Olds for a while in the 1960's, he also played a George Roberts- Holton Bass Trombone for a while in the 70's, might have used a Yamaha Single Valve for a while, and went back to Conn in the 1990's. I hope some of the other list members can correct me or fill-in further details. It would be interesting to find out what he plays today. I hope this might help. Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 00 21:58:09 -0700 From: John Capon To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Trigger hitting chin Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >I have the same problem with my son's Holton TR-158. I get my beard caught >in the trigger every time I play it. It messes me up a lot worse than the >old finger on the bell trick. > >Ken Dowdy Ken, Shorten your beard. Sorry. John From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:11:42 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <20000323061142.5608.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed OK, hereās a simple way to cure we folk from touching the bell in third position. Add a piece of foam to the bell so when you touch the bell to locate third position, youāll touch the foam, instead. Because of the thickness of the foam, the note you play will be out of tune. Now, thatās negative feedback, if I ever heard it. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:45:49 -0000 From: "Dynamic Music" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <005201bf949b$de14a580$463e01d5@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Barrett wrote: > I was reminded of a story that one of my old teachers, Fred "Moe" Snyder, told > me about a year or two ago... > It seems that a certain junior high (about 11-13 years old, for our non-US > listers) student was having trouble finding positions, so he enlisted the help > of Mr. Snyder. He got Fred to play his(the student's) horn, and the kid marked > on the inner slide with a waterproof marker where the outer slide was! (Wait, > it gets better!!!) > The next lesson, the kid comes in, and he had taken a hacksaw, and lightly > scored the inner slide with it!!! "The marks were wearing off, and this way, I > don't have to look at the slide!" > You can't make stories like this up!!! Did I ever tell the story of a trombone instructor in Glasgow who had given the child a trombone home for the first time? The following week the pupil turned up for his second lesson and announced that his father had "mended" the instrument. Knowing that the trombone was in a fine condition when it had been issued, the instructor asked "what do you mean?" The father had drilled a hole through the two slides and attached a nut and bolt to "stop it moving about" !!! Cheers, Dave (yup, still lurking away) Dave Hankin, Hamilton, Scotland - DYNAMIC MUSIC PUBLICATIONS Specialists in Trombone Ensemble Music - www.btinternet.com/~dynamicmusic Adrian Drover/Dave Hankin Big Band - www.btinternet.com/~dynamicmusic/bigband From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:50:58 -0700 From: Dave Tall To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Tune it or Die Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000323005058.009f7eb0@mail.sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:25 PM 03/22/2000 -0500, you wrote: >> After listening to that presentation, I have had to make 22 new scratches >on my >> slide to mark all the variations. >> >> Dave. >> >> John McVey wrote: >> >> > >> > BTW, if you missed Milt Stevens' presentation called "Tune it or Die" >with the >> > National Symphony 'Bone section at the ETW this past weekend, you missed >a great >> > presentation of a most difficult subject. > >Hear hear! I was so impressed with Milt's presentation that I had a tuner in >my hands by the close of ETW, not necesarily the turbocharged $900 tuner >that Milt and his section was endorsing, but a good tuner that I can raise >my 14 cents or lower my 16 cents with. Could someone give a review of this session? Dave Tall Bass Trombonist New Mexico Symphony From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:09:02 EST From: Philbne@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Finger on the bell Message-ID: <16.1f380ec.260b2b1e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a student who used to stick his finger out to touch the bell bringing the slide back in. All it took was for the slide to keep going and his finger to stay at the bell to find out not to do that anymore. Ouch Needless to say he found out his chops were more sensitive than he thought. Trombone is not a braille instrument. The bell is not a fret for third position. Phil Keen From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:36:21 EST From: SFTrombone@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: George Roberts Models Message-ID: <64.12f53d8.260b3185@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lately, George has been playing a customized Conn 110H. SF From ???@??? Thu Mar 23 08:26:46 2000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:09:12 EST From: SFTrombone@aol.com To: kingbone@earthlink.net, Trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing sharp Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has been covered before, but I thought I might post a little about the harmonic series and extended poisitions. When I hear a trombonist playing a bit sharp, I often see that they aren't really playing with accurate positions. It's easy to get into the habit of playing 5th, 6th, or 7th a little sharp in order to avoid having to reach farther than might be comfortable. We have to remember that these positions are longer than we'd like, so we have to get used to it and REACH. Also, many players play 1st position all the way in. That may work for students, but as we improve our playing, we must play more accurately in tune, and we must remember that the harmonic series is not exactly in tune, so each partial must be adjusted accordingly, even when in 1st position. For example, F above middle C is quite sharp on most horns, so if you play it all the way in, you won't be very in tune. Remember in the method books when it says that D above middle C can be played in 1st or flat 4th? Well, that flat 4th is in the same partial as the 1st position F above it, so if you play D flat 4th, play flat 3rd, 2nd, and 1st for the notes above it in that partial too. Also, D above middle C in 1st position tends to be a little flat, so if all the other 1st position notes are all the way in, the D can't be easily played in tune. I make a point of playing with extended positions; that is, all 1st positions are a bit out so all can be adjusted either way if needed. My "1st position roadmap" might look something like this, though it's different on each of my horns: Starting from highest to lowest, showing amount of slide extension in 1st position: D +1/4" C +1/2" Bb +1/2" F +1"+ D +1/4" Bb +1/2" F +1" Bb +1/2" Bb (pedal) +1/2" Notice, all the Bb's are about the same place, the F's are a bit out, and the D's are in a little. As usual, your mileage (and horn) may vary. But, give it a try. Push your tuning crook in about 1/2", or even all the way, and just continue to play in tune by playing longer positions overall, and listen. And of course, no fingers touching the bell. Hope it gives some food for thought. All the best, Steve Ferguson