TROMBONE-L Digest 1601 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Vier Equale? Was: Drei Equale by Howard Weiner 2) Re: Care of silverplated horn by "J.c. Sherman" 3) Re: Drei Equali by "Dick Sleeman" 4) Alto trombone - Was: Drei Equali by Howard Weiner 5) Re: Alto trombone - Was: Drei Equali by sabutin@mindspring.com 6) Holding the Holton Superbone by "Peter W. Schroth" 7) Re: Vier Equale? Was: Drei Equale by Mike Coyle 8) RE: Alto trombone - Was: Drei Equali by "Lawrence Borden" 9) Re: Vier Equale? Was: Drei Equale by "Steve Beck" 10) Erlking Arrangement by Beth Lewis 11) Re: Texas All-State Follow Up by j.grisham@pmail.net (Josh Grisham) 12) Help! by TonyC789@aol.com 13) Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else by j.grisham@pmail.net (Josh Grisham) 14) Re: New Euph? by Larry White 15) Re: Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else by Amtrom1@aol.com 16) Re: Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else by sabutin@mindspring.com 17) Re: Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else by "Aaron Roth" 18) Finding the spot... by Earl Needham 19) Re: Vier Equale? Herr Beck by Mike Coyle 20) Conn 4H questions? by "Dilshad Kasmani" From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:16 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:00:25 From: Howard Weiner To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Vier Equale? Was: Drei Equale Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000218130025.4eaf04ca@mail.privat.toplink.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As I mentioned in a previous post, I happened to be in the library yesterday to do some research on Beethoven's Equale. I was looking for information about a third description of how the Equali came to be written. Two of the descriptions were included in my previous post: The first and most widely known is that told to Beethoven's first biographer Alexander Wheelock Thayer by Franz Glšggl (1796-1872) shortly before Glšggl's death. The second is from the account of Beethoven's funeral probably written by Tobias Haslinger, Beethoven's friend and publisher, and one-time owner of the Equale manuscript. Although published in two German-language articles (1962 & 1970), the third description is not very well known (I just discovered it this past year). It is from Franz Xaver Glšggl (1764-1838), father of the aforementioned Franz Glšggl, and the person to whom the Equale owe their existence. On 19 July 1838 Franz Xaver Glšggl wrote the following to Robert Schumann: "I knew the master L. Beeth: and his brother the _Cassier_ [cashier?] very well. Because of a family matter they came here, where I, to avoid a public scandal, served as the mediator. On this occasion I got to know L. Bth: as a high- minded, refined, kind-hearted, unpretentious man, the two brothers, however, as wretched human beings. L. Bth: spent most of the time with me, and told me about his circumstances, as far as his preoccupation [absent-mindedness?] allowed. During my frequent visits to Vienna, he remained open toward me. He also wrote for me several mourning pieces for trombones, of which I gave some to my friend Haslinger in Vienna, and one of which was performed at his [Beethoven's] funeral. He wrote them in my room, and of them I retained one for myself." Interesting is the comparison to what Glšggl jr. reported: " My father asked him for an Aequale for six trombones as in his collection of old instruments he had a soprano and a quart trombone, whereas only alto, tenor and bass trombones were commonly used." As we know the 3 Equale are for four trombones, and hardly require a soprano and a quart trombone. How to explain this discrepancy? Franz Glšggl wrote to Thayer nearly sixty years after the fact. Was his memory faulty? Or was there yet another, a six-part Equal that has not survived? This, at least, is what Othmar Wessely surmised in his article, "Zur Geschichte des Equals" ("On the History of the Equal," _Beethoven Studien_ 12, 1970). His reasoning is that according to his own testimony, Glšggl senior gave some of the Equale to Haslinger. These must have been the meanwhile well-known (at least to trombonists) 3 Equale for four trombones. The six-part Equal that Glšggl jr. remembered may therefore have been the one that his father kept for himself, and that has since been lost. Vier Equale? I'm afraid we'll never know for sure. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" - attributed to Frank Zappa "Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen" - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:16 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:14:23 -0500 From: "J.c. Sherman" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Care of silverplated horn Message-ID: <38AD53BF.30008476@clevelandopera.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use Hagerty's (sp?) silver polish at the shop where I work. I've found that the spray works very quickly, and very well. Not too fond of the cream. Either way, never use brasso or an abrassive polish - you'll hate yourself when you're done! J.c. Sherman David Molter wrote: > I just purchased a used silverplated King 5B -- it's not the Silversonic, > just plated. Can I or should i use something like right's silver polish on > it, or should I simply use the sane lacquer cleaner I use on my regular > brass horns? > > Also, I'm interested in comments on the playability of these horns as > compared to the 4B. This 5b has a 9" bell and seems much more even in > response and better balanced than the 4B I just sold. It also is better > balanced physically -- not as slide heavy. Any similar experiences out > there? > > thanks > > Dave Molter > Pittsburgh, PA > > From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:17 2000 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:58:33 +0100 From: "Dick Sleeman" To: "Trombones and related issues forum" , <8guion@jmls.edu> Subject: Re: Drei Equali Message-ID: <000201bf7a1e$eecbbb80$077dadc1@dick> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David wrote, referring to Beethoven's "Drei Equali": : A friend of mine likes to call them the "Dry Equali". Which reminded me of a joke: A German trombonist ordered at a bar somewhere in England: "I'd like to hef two martini's". The bartender answered: "Dry martini's, sir?" And the German thundered: "Nein, zwei!" (I made it a trombonist for trombone content :-)) Dick Sleeman, Lelystad, Holland. From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:17 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:00:49 From: Howard Weiner To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Alto trombone - Was: Drei Equali Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000218190049.2f27233a@mail.privat.toplink.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A few thoughts on the alto trombone in the Equali and otherwise: Larry Borden wrote: Are you going to use alto on first? These pieces were written with this sound in mind for the top voice. I think they sound much less compelling when played on a set of large tenors. Tom Izzo wrote: Larry is right on the money here! With all respect, I have to disagree with my friends Larry and Tom on this. Just a couple years ago when I was studying at Northwestern in the early 1970s, almost nobody had an alto trombone. Jay Friedman used one occasionally in the CSO, Joe Klingelhofer (currently Tonhalle Orchestra, Zurich) had one, and starting around 1973 I was doing some playing on a borrowed alto sackbut. As far as I know, neither Frank Crisafulli nor Jim Gilbertsen (CSO) nor Ardash Marderosian (Lyric Opera) ever played alto. (Larry might want to correct me here.) In any case, back then the alto trombone was a rare animal. Nowadays, there are a lot more of them running around out there. Three of the four CSO trombonists play alto. A couple well-known trombone soloists play the Baroque/Classical solo repertoire exclusively on alto trombone. The alto trombone has become very popular. But is this popularity historically justified? I doubt it. Strange as it may seem, the use of a tenor trombone on the first trombone parts in Beethoven symphonies, Mozart masses, Haydn oratorios that was usual in American symphony orchestras until a couple decades ago, may just have been more historically appropriate than the seeming ubiquitous use of the alto trombone today. In the 18th and early 19th centuries, the alto, tenor, and bass trombones were often all B-flat instruments, i.e., tenor trombones differing only in bore and mouthpiece size. The trombone methods by Froehlich (Bonn, ca. 1810) and Nemitz (Vienna, 1827) confirm this. Froehlich wrote: "In modern times, the three kinds of trombone are made similar in size in many places, and always similar in construction. Nothing is different but the mouthpiece, especially for the alto trombone, for which a narrower [mouthpiece] is necessary so that the trombonist can play with security the high notes that come time and again." Nemitz gives scales and etudes for each of the three sizes of trombone. The position numbers printed above the notes makes it absolutely clear that for Nemitz the alto and bass trombones were B-flat instruments. Nemitz was trombonist at the Imperial Royal Court Opera Theater in Vienna from 1823-1828, so one might want to consider this source when contemplating a performance of the Equale. To be sure, Froehlich qualifies his statement with "in many places," and several paragraphs later writes "Almost all of the foregoing is also true of the alto trombone, except that it is a fourth higher, making the high notes even easier to get, and its fundamental is E-flat." So in other words, alto trombone is not necessarily alto trombone. From the historical viewpoint, it also depends on when and where. And what is more, a trombone part in alto clef does not automatically imply alto trombone. During the first half of the 17th century (and later), the alto trombone was apparently practically unknown in Italy, yet there are many alto-clef trombone parts in Italian publications, including Schutz's "Fili mi, Absalon" and "Attendite" (Venice 1629) with two alto clef parts. I know that because of this it is often claimed that "Fili mi" should be played with two altos. But if one assumes alto clef = alto trombone, what do you use on the fourth part which is in sub-bass clef, a contrabass trombone? The combination of 2 altos, tenor, and contrabass would seem a bit grotesque to me. If you look beyond the clefs, you'll see that the ranges of the first two trombone parts to "Fili mi" and "Attendite" do not exceed a', and are thus within the "normal" range of the tenor trombone as given by Michael Praetorius (1619). Praetorius wrote: "Alto or Discant trombone: Trombino, Trombetta picciola, on which a discant can be played naturally and well. However, because of its small body, it does not sound as well as the high register of the ordinary [tenor] trombone, when this height is achieved on the latter with a good embouchure and practice." In other words, even in Germany, where the alto trombone was known, it wasn't always the instrument of choice. And the name Praetorius and others used for the tenor trombone "gemeine rechte Posaun," i.e. ordinary trombone, says a lot. Having said all that, I must stress that one has to be pragmatic. I have a lot of experience in the field of historically informed performance, and this too has colored my thinking and my tastes. But if you are in a situation where you only have modern trombones at your disposal, using alto trombone(s) on the top part(s) may very well be the appropriate choice to achieve the sound you want, even if it isn't "historically correct," as in the case of the Equale or "Fili mi." Enough for now. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" - attributed to Frank Zappa "Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen" - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:17 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:52:17 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: weiner@privat.toplink.de Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Alto trombone - Was: Drei Equali Message-ID: <200002181952.OAA30499@fb04.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit YES !!! This is a great post. I'll comment as it goes along. ================= At 07:00 PM 2/18/00 +0000, you wrote: >A few thoughts on the alto trombone in the Equali and otherwise: > >Larry Borden wrote: >Are you going to use alto on first? These pieces were written with this >sound in mind for the top voice. I think they sound much less compelling >when played on a set of large tenors. ======================= Why limit the choices to "large" tenors or altos for music like this? I'm not really familiar w/this piece, but I am INTIMATELY familiar w/the upper ranges of large tenors, small tenors (w/the appropriate m'pces) and altos. Any piece that doesn't go above Eb or F at the top of the treble clef is perfectly capable of being played on a small tenor as well or better as on an alto, and my experience has been that a beautiful playing Conn 4H or Bach 6 sounds BETTER up there than any alto I've ever found. More resonance, more mass, w/out the trucklike drawbacks of a larger tenor or the smallness and lack or body of an alto. A little harder to control, maybe, than an alto...a little more chancy...but what a glorious sound when it works. (Remember...danger is our business.) ================== > >Tom Izzo wrote: >Larry is right on the money here! > >With all respect, I have to disagree with my friends Larry and Tom on this. >Just a couple years ago when I was studying at Northwestern in the early >1970s, almost nobody had an alto trombone. Jay Friedman used one >occasionally in the CSO, Joe Klingelhofer (currently Tonhalle Orchestra, >Zurich) had one, and starting around 1973 I was doing some playing on a >borrowed alto sackbut. As far as I know, neither Frank Crisafulli nor Jim >Gilbertsen (CSO) nor Ardash Marderosian (Lyric Opera) ever played alto. >(Larry might want to correct me here.) In any case, back then the alto >trombone was a rare animal. > >Nowadays, there are a lot more of them running around out there. Three of >the four CSO trombonists play alto. A couple well-known trombone soloists >play the Baroque/Classical solo repertoire exclusively on alto trombone. >The alto trombone has become very popular. But is this popularity >historically justified? I doubt it. Strange as it may seem, the use of a >tenor trombone on the first trombone parts in Beethoven symphonies, Mozart >masses, Haydn oratorios that was usual in American symphony orchestras >until a couple decades ago, may just have been more historically >appropriate than the seeming ubiquitous use of the alto trombone today. ==================== I've always wondered about that...I thought maybe the alto trombones of that day were just better sounding instruments, and that alto makers had lost the art in the 20th century. ========================= > >In the 18th and early 19th centuries, the alto, tenor, and bass trombones >were often all B-flat instruments, i.e., tenor trombones differing only in >bore and mouthpiece size. The trombone methods by Froehlich (Bonn, ca. >1810) and Nemitz (Vienna, 1827) confirm this. > >Froehlich wrote: "In modern times, the three kinds of trombone are made >similar in size in many places, and always similar in construction. Nothing >is different but the mouthpiece, especially for the alto trombone, for >which a narrower [mouthpiece] is necessary so that the trombonist can play >with security the high notes that come time and again." =========================== Like maybe a 12C ? (Worked for Tommy Dorsey and Urbie Green...) An 11C (Worked for Bill Harris, Trummy Young, Britt Woodman, Bill Watrous, Dave Steinmeyer...LOTSA folks) ================================== > >Nemitz gives scales and etudes for each of the three sizes of trombone. The >position numbers printed above the notes makes it absolutely clear that for >Nemitz the alto and bass trombones were B-flat instruments. Nemitz was >trombonist at the Imperial Royal Court Opera Theater in Vienna from >1823-1828, so one might want to consider this source when contemplating a >performance of the Equale. > >To be sure, Froehlich qualifies his statement with "in many places," and >several paragraphs later writes "Almost all of the foregoing is also true >of the alto trombone, except that it is a fourth higher, making the high >notes even easier to get, and its fundamental is E-flat." > >So in other words, alto trombone is not necessarily alto trombone. From the >historical viewpoint, it also depends on when and where. And what is more, >a trombone part in alto clef does not automatically imply alto trombone. > >During the first half of the 17th century (and later), the alto trombone >was apparently practically unknown in Italy, yet there are many alto-clef >trombone parts in Italian publications, including Schutz's "Fili mi, >Absalon" and "Attendite" (Venice 1629) with two alto clef parts. I know >that because of this it is often claimed that "Fili mi" should be played >with two altos. But if one assumes alto clef = alto trombone, what do you >use on the fourth part which is in sub-bass clef, a contrabass trombone? >The combination of 2 altos, tenor, and contrabass would seem a bit >grotesque to me. If you look beyond the clefs, you'll see that the ranges >of the first two trombone parts to "Fili mi" and "Attendite" do not exceed >a', and are thus within the "normal" range of the tenor trombone as given >by Michael Praetorius (1619). > >Praetorius wrote: "Alto or Discant trombone: Trombino, Trombetta picciola, >on which a discant can be played naturally and well. However, because of >its small body, it does not sound as well as the high register of the >ordinary [tenor] trombone, when this height is achieved on the latter with >a good embouchure and practice." =========================== Exactly. ========================== > >In other words, even in Germany, where the alto trombone was known, it >wasn't always the instrument of choice. And the name Praetorius and others >used for the tenor trombone "gemeine rechte Posaun," i.e. ordinary >trombone, says a lot. > >Having said all that, I must stress that one has to be pragmatic. I have a >lot of experience in the field of historically informed performance, and >this too has colored my thinking and my tastes. But if you are in a >situation where you only have modern trombones at your disposal, using alto >trombone(s) on the top part(s) may very well be the appropriate choice to >achieve the sound you want, even if it isn't "historically correct," as in >the case of the Equale or "Fili mi." > >Enough for now. =========================== Well...what do you mean by "modern" trombones? King is still making VERY good small bore horns (the 2102 series, either dual bore .481/.491" or single .491", 7 3/8" bells) and the second hand music stores and the net (ebay, etc.) are FULL of classic 4Hs, small Bachs, and King 2Bs from the thirties through the 50s, almost all easily restorable, most selling for around $400-600. Some of these horns are absolutely GORGEOUS sounding and playing instruments, particularly the 4Hs and Mt. Vernon/N.Y Bachs (6s, 8s, etc.). The 2Bs are great too, but they sound somehow less "orchestral". A good 4H, in my experience, can be made to sound HUGE...great volume, great "hold togetherness". Lots of them were gold plated, which makes them even more beautiful sounding. So these horns are widely available. I think one reason people don't use them is because when they've tried them, they put some cave of a mouthpiece in them and then wondered what all the fuss had been about. W/the right m'pce/small Bb horn/practice combination, much of the current "alto" literature can be played rather beautifully. Anyway,,,great post. It's good to hear from someone who's really done his homework. Later... S. ========================= > >Howard > > >-- >Howard Weiner >weiner@privat.toplink.de >http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner > >"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" > - attributed to Frank Zappa > >"Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen" > - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben > From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:17 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:33:12 -0500 From: "Peter W. Schroth" To: Trombones and related issues forum Subject: Holding the Holton Superbone Message-ID: <38ADAC88.50730A15@rh.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7D18C2D5FCDBBD3CBCB17527" I find the Holton superbone very uncomfortable to hold. Much of the weight is on my left pinkie, which is not designed for the job. I have heard that Ashley Alexander had some sort of strap arrangement to deal with this. Does anyone know the design? Yamaha sells a strap for holding trombones. Can anyone advise on this and whether it is likely to help with the superbone? Or can anyone suggest other solutions? (I don't consider getting rid of the superbone a solution, because it has a nice tone and I'm getting addicted to the vast menu of alternative positions.) Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="schroth.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Peter W. Schroth Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="schroth.vcf" Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:schroth.vcf (TEXT/ttxt) (000251FB) From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:17 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:14:14 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Vier Equale? Was: Drei Equale Message-ID: <200002182217.QAA30368@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_14977263==_.ALT" Apology to those of you who are using text only email viewers.  Whether one uses italics or underlining to denote the names of works in the conventional way, it is not read properly by some text only email clients.  My only other choice would have been to ignore italicization or underlining of works which offends my editorial and documentary sensibilities.  Sorry, can't do it 

Also, I have included this on the list as there may be a few who are interested in this thread as it gets deeper into the matter.  For those of you who couldn't care less - delete it now.  Save yourself the time of flaming me for robbing you of bandwidth or wasting valuable seconds of your lives.  :-)


Howard,

According to the account of Beethoven's funeral, transcribed by Zeller which were in the Weiner archives at the time Thayer was writing his biography of Beethoven, there was a miserere sung of which, in Zeller's words, "...the refrain was blown by the trombonists.  This Miserere was the work specified as music for All Soul's Day, which Beethoven had written at Linz in 1812 at Glšggl's request.  During the evening of March 26th and 27th Seyfried arranged it for voices.  Amplius lava me** was also sung."

**Also written by Beethoven for Glšggl and arranged for voices by Seyfried.  The singers and trombonists alternated in the performance.  See WoO 30, Nos. 1 and 3.  (this appears to be Thayer's note, not the editor of the English edition)

WoO 30 is clearly referring to the Equali

Does this mean that Amplius lava me was simply the first and third movements of the Three Equali arranged with voices?  Perhaps the second movement was sung a cappella or played by trombones alone.  Also, what became of the Miserere?  Or was that simply a misnomer for the Equali in some other form?  It seems curious that what is referred to as the Miserere was composed at the same time and place and at the request of the same person as the Equali.  The line "(this was) the work specified as music for All Soul's Day, which Beethoven had written at Linz in 1812 at Glšggl's request"  has be puzzled - it references a singular work, which up to this point, it seemed was in fact the Three Equali.  What do you make of this?

I am currently living in a place not particularly known for its intellectual fertility and have no access to a first-rate research facility and would like to know what have found out about this.  I have really enjoyed reading your well reasoned and thoughtfully researched posts on this subject.

Thank you,

Mike Coyle



At 07:00 AM 2/18/00 , you wrote:
>As I mentioned in a previous post, I happened to be in the library
>yesterday to do some research on Beethoven's Equale. I was looking for
>information about a third description of how the Equali came to be written.
>Two of the descriptions were included in my previous post: The first and
>most widely known is that told to Beethoven's first biographer Alexander
>Wheelock Thayer by Franz Glšggl (1796-1872) shortly before Glšggl's death.
>The second is from the account of Beethoven's funeral probably written by
>Tobias Haslinger, Beethoven's friend and publisher, and one-time owner of
>the Equale manuscript.
>
>Although published in two German-language articles (1962 & 1970), the third
>description is  not very well known (I just discovered it this past year).
>It is from Franz Xaver Glšggl (1764-1838), father of the aforementioned
>Franz Glšggl, and the person to whom the Equale owe their existence. On 19
>July 1838 Franz Xaver Glšggl wrote the following to Robert Schumann:
>
>"I knew the master L. Beeth: and his brother the _Cassier_
>[cashier?] very well.  Because of a family matter they came
>here, where I, to avoid a public scandal, served as the
>mediator. On this occasion I got to know L. Bth: as a high-
>minded, refined, kind-hearted, unpretentious man, the two
>brothers, however, as wretched human beings. L. Bth: spent
>most of the time with me, and told me about his circumstances,
>as far as his preoccupation [absent-mindedness?] allowed. During
>my frequent visits to Vienna, he remained open toward me. He
>also wrote for me several mourning pieces for trombones, of
>which I gave some to my friend Haslinger in Vienna, and one of
>which was performed at his [Beethoven's] funeral. He wrote
>them in my room, and of them I retained one for myself."
>
>Interesting is the comparison to what Glšggl jr. reported:
>
>" My father asked him for an Aequale for six trombones as in his collection
>of old instruments he had a soprano and a quart trombone, whereas only  alto,
>tenor and bass trombones were commonly used."
>
>As we know the 3 Equale are for four trombones, and hardly require a
>soprano and a quart trombone. How to explain this discrepancy? Franz Glšggl
>wrote to Thayer nearly sixty years after the fact. Was his memory faulty?
>Or was there yet another, a six-part Equal that has not survived? This, at
>least, is what Othmar Wessely surmised in his article, "Zur Geschichte des
>Equals" ("On the History of the Equal,"  _Beethoven Studien_ 12, 1970). His
>reasoning is that according to his own testimony, Glšggl senior gave some
>of the Equale to Haslinger. These must have been the meanwhile well-known
>(at least to trombonists) 3 Equale for four trombones. The six-part Equal
>that Glšggl jr. remembered may therefore have been the one that his father
>kept for himself, and that has since been lost.
>
>Vier Equale? I'm afraid we'll never know for sure.
>
>Howard
>
>
>--
>Howard Weiner
>weiner@privat.toplink.de
>http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner
>
>"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" 
>                           - attributed to Frank Zappa
>
>"Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen"
>                           - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben
> From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:47:10 -0600 From: "Lawrence Borden" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Alto trombone - Was: Drei Equali Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howard, My thoughts on using alto trombone on these works has little to do with the instrument being in E-flat or being the original instrument the work was intended for. Instead, I am concerned with the spectral color of the sound produced by an alto. I love the lighter sound and am little concerned if an alto or small bore/small mouthpiece tenor combination is used. I would simply like to avoid the heavy, wide sound that became the "standard" up until so recently. I agree that the appearance of alto clef on a part does not dictate alto trombone usage. After all the Bruckner symphonies are mostly alto clef in the first trombone part. In the modern symphony orchestra that would be rather inappropriate given the written textures and density. I love the sound of the Alto trombone for itself. On early symphonic and choral works it is a much better sound for blend and color than a large bore tenor. Also pertinent is the fact that an E-flat alto will have a different distribution of strengths to some of the partials and so brings some added attention to itself without having to play loudly. When tenors plus bass trombone are used, the distribution of overtones (and their relative strengths) tends to be so similar that it makes it makes the task of stream segregation very difficult. The listener has a harder time following the lines produced by each instrument. In other words, use of the alto can increase the enjoyment for the listener. That, after all, is the point! Larry P.S. I loved the use of "A few years ago" to refer to our joint tenure at Northwestern. Keep up the optimistic view of life. I love it! LB Lawrence Borden Nashville Symphony Orchestra Vanderbilt University -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Howard Weiner Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:01 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Alto trombone - Was: Drei Equali A few thoughts on the alto trombone in the Equali and otherwise: Larry Borden wrote: Are you going to use alto on first? These pieces were written with this sound in mind for the top voice. I think they sound much less compelling when played on a set of large tenors. Tom Izzo wrote: Larry is right on the money here! With all respect, I have to disagree with my friends Larry and Tom on this. Just a couple years ago when I was studying at Northwestern in the early 1970s, almost nobody had an alto trombone. Jay Friedman used one occasionally in the CSO, Joe Klingelhofer (currently Tonhalle Orchestra, Zurich) had one, and starting around 1973 I was doing some playing on a borrowed alto sackbut. As far as I know, neither Frank Crisafulli nor Jim Gilbertsen (CSO) nor Ardash Marderosian (Lyric Opera) ever played alto. (Larry might want to correct me here.) In any case, back then the alto trombone was a rare animal. Nowadays, there are a lot more of them running around out there. Three of the four CSO trombonists play alto. A couple well-known trombone soloists play the Baroque/Classical solo repertoire exclusively on alto trombone. The alto trombone has become very popular. But is this popularity historically justified? I doubt it. Strange as it may seem, the use of a tenor trombone on the first trombone parts in Beethoven symphonies, Mozart masses, Haydn oratorios that was usual in American symphony orchestras until a couple decades ago, may just have been more historically appropriate than the seeming ubiquitous use of the alto trombone today. In the 18th and early 19th centuries, the alto, tenor, and bass trombones were often all B-flat instruments, i.e., tenor trombones differing only in bore and mouthpiece size. The trombone methods by Froehlich (Bonn, ca. 1810) and Nemitz (Vienna, 1827) confirm this. Froehlich wrote: "In modern times, the three kinds of trombone are made similar in size in many places, and always similar in construction. Nothing is different but the mouthpiece, especially for the alto trombone, for which a narrower [mouthpiece] is necessary so that the trombonist can play with security the high notes that come time and again." Nemitz gives scales and etudes for each of the three sizes of trombone. The position numbers printed above the notes makes it absolutely clear that for Nemitz the alto and bass trombones were B-flat instruments. Nemitz was trombonist at the Imperial Royal Court Opera Theater in Vienna from 1823-1828, so one might want to consider this source when contemplating a performance of the Equale. To be sure, Froehlich qualifies his statement with "in many places," and several paragraphs later writes "Almost all of the foregoing is also true of the alto trombone, except that it is a fourth higher, making the high notes even easier to get, and its fundamental is E-flat." So in other words, alto trombone is not necessarily alto trombone. From the historical viewpoint, it also depends on when and where. And what is more, a trombone part in alto clef does not automatically imply alto trombone. During the first half of the 17th century (and later), the alto trombone was apparently practically unknown in Italy, yet there are many alto-clef trombone parts in Italian publications, including Schutz's "Fili mi, Absalon" and "Attendite" (Venice 1629) with two alto clef parts. I know that because of this it is often claimed that "Fili mi" should be played with two altos. But if one assumes alto clef = alto trombone, what do you use on the fourth part which is in sub-bass clef, a contrabass trombone? The combination of 2 altos, tenor, and contrabass would seem a bit grotesque to me. If you look beyond the clefs, you'll see that the ranges of the first two trombone parts to "Fili mi" and "Attendite" do not exceed a', and are thus within the "normal" range of the tenor trombone as given by Michael Praetorius (1619). Praetorius wrote: "Alto or Discant trombone: Trombino, Trombetta picciola, on which a discant can be played naturally and well. However, because of its small body, it does not sound as well as the high register of the ordinary [tenor] trombone, when this height is achieved on the latter with a good embouchure and practice." In other words, even in Germany, where the alto trombone was known, it wasn't always the instrument of choice. And the name Praetorius and others used for the tenor trombone "gemeine rechte Posaun," i.e. ordinary trombone, says a lot. Having said all that, I must stress that one has to be pragmatic. I have a lot of experience in the field of historically informed performance, and this too has colored my thinking and my tastes. But if you are in a situation where you only have modern trombones at your disposal, using alto trombone(s) on the top part(s) may very well be the appropriate choice to achieve the sound you want, even if it isn't "historically correct," as in the case of the Equale or "Fili mi." Enough for now. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" - attributed to Frank Zappa "Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen" - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:14:19 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Vier Equale? Was: Drei Equale Message-ID: <001601bf7a6e$4632f880$5a0c0923@becks.cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF7A44.5AEFE820"
Mike Coyle quoted:
 
"...the refrain was blown by the trombonists." 
 
I bet the trumpets didn't play it so well either!
 
                                        -Steve
 From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:41:45 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Erlking Arrangement Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, >From reading the liner notes to a CD containing Schubert songs, I learned that Schubert arranged this song for orchestra, with the solo lines played by flute (narrator), C clarinet (child), Bb horn (Erlking), and bass trombone (father). I'd never heard of this before, (but then there's a lot I haven't heard of) so if anyone has any insight as to whether this arrangement is ever performed (or even exists) today, I'd like to hear it. Thanks, Beth Lewis From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:00:35 -0600 From: j.grisham@pmail.net (Josh Grisham) To: TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Texas All-State Follow Up Message-ID: <200002190300.VAA08281@po.missouri.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I realize that this is a rather late response, but I thought that I might chip in on this subject also. I'm not sure whether it was brought up or not on the list or privately, but the audition process in Texas changed about three years ago so that now everyone auditions in front of everyone else. Seriously! Everyone goes into the room and sits down and you play in order of letter (everyone is assigned a random letter). The first round starts with player A and goes to the end. Then, in the second round, you start with the letter 1/3 of the way down the list, play to the last player, then go back to A and finish out the rest of the people. Then in round 3, it's 2/3 down the list, then to the top and through. That's a fairly brief image, but you do get the point that everyone does hear everyone else. Anyway, at this particular audition, I didn't think that anyone really stood out above anyone else. In fact, if I had gotten the chance, I would probably have thanked the judges for doing such a great job. Everyone was REALLY close. I personally think that the judges did a fine job. There were a few that I didn't think were in the right spot (some too high, some too low), but then again it's my opinion, and that was only a FEW. There really wasn't much to complain about against the judges. As for myself, I was upset with the way I played, but I was very proud to be where I was, and even considered to be in the same class as everyone else in that room. The playing was quite phenominal compared to anything else I'd ever heard or auditioned for... One quick funny story (at least I think it's funny) that happened when I was playing the Symphonie Fantastique excerpt: I was really nervous about the Eb (which, sadly, I missed, BTW, but at least I didn't cop out and take it down an octave), so as I was playing the first bit of it, I was playing it by memory. Thus, as I played, I was looking up at the ceiling (I guess I thought, "Look high, play high," or something.. :) ), but after I got past the high stuff, I looked back down to the page to get my spot back. I couldn't find where I was!! I looked up and down and up and down the page and I couldn't find it at all!! So, I had to stop for a second and find my spot and then start again! Funny stuff, indeed! :) The sad thing is that I think it really hurt my results. Oh well. I believed that I deserved what I got (especially since the first time I really practiced the music was on Monday and the tryouts were on Wednesday!) and I had a great time playing 1st part in the Philharmonic Orchestra. I don't know why not many people wanted to be in that Orchestra.. I thought it was a blast. I just love playing in Orchestras, because I hardly ever get a chance to (my school doesn't have one). But, all in all, it was a great experience, and I had a great time!! Well, those are just my thoughts! --Josh Grisham <>< j.grisham@pmail.net From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:03:08 EST From: TonyC789@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu, TubaEuph@onelist.com Subject: Help! Message-ID: <7c.1ea0645.25df61ec@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a trumpet, horn and brass list, similar (but not equal!) to this list? Please supply subscription adresses. Thanks. Tony Clements From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:17:31 -0600 From: j.grisham@pmail.net (Josh Grisham) To: TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else Message-ID: <200002190317.VAA09666@po.missouri.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, after all of the questions and opinions, I finally got to tryout basically every major horn while I was in San Antonion at the TMEA Convention a week ago. Here is a list of everything that I tried: Bach 42BO Bach 42BO w/ Haagman.. ??? valve (don't remember what it's called) 3 different Edwards instruments Getzen Eterna Holton TR160 (not sure about this either.. it's their standard horn that basically matches the other brands like Bach 42, Conn 88H, etc.) Conn 88H Conn 88HYO Conn 88HO Conn 88HO w/ Silver plating Conn 88HTO Conn 88HO-SGX w/ Christian Lindberg valve Conn 88HO w/ CL valve I might be leaving some out, but that's a pretty good list right there. Anyway, I walked around there with one of my directors, and someone else who goes to my school (who hears me play a lot), and I played all of these intruments for them. The one they all liked the best was the Conn 88HO (just standard Conn 88H with Open wrap). That seems kind of weird, comparing it to all those other very find instruments I played it against. I also liked the 88HO more than any of the other ones. For me, it had the best sound, response, and openness (is that a word? :) ). The one that came in a close 2nd was the Getzen Eterna. I liked it, but the sound wasn't nowhere near as good as it was on the Conn. I got a warm sound on the Edwards, but it seemed a little to heavy--not physically, but sound-wise--for my tastes (woofy is the word that I've heard used for this, also). My favorite was definitely the Conn. Then, after playing on it for a while, the UMI guy that was standing there brought out this all-new tuning slide that they are developing for the 88H line. I never knew that a tuning slide would make that much of a difference!! The guy was telling me that it was made out of lighter metals, and spun in a different way or something-or-other, but it made a difference on my response and even a little on range. It even made the horn feel a little more open, which I also like. Unfortunately, he told me that this new tuning slide was still in development and probably wouldn't be available until sometime next year, possibly. Has anyone ever heard of it before, and do you have any additional information about this tuning slide? I want, I want. :) Anyway, I have decided to get a Conn 88HO whenever I get a new horn here in a few months. My Blessing B-88-O doesn't quite cut the mustard in most situations for me. I also think that I'll order that tuning slide whenever it comes out, too. Just some more of my thoughts.. I thought that it was kind of odd that a standard stock Conn 88H played much better than an Edwards or even an 88H-SGX for me. I guess I'm just a little cheaper than some folks :). --Josh Grisham <>< j.grisham@pmail.net From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:46:29 -0800 From: Larry White To: Trmbman@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: New Euph? Message-ID: <38AE1215.944DDFD@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If it is Bright Silverplate (BSP) you should be able to get a polishing cloth that is specifically for this from Boosey & Hawkes. Be careful however, that you do not get a silver polishing cloth as it has a bit of grit in it and will remove the plating that keeps the intrument looking so nice. I personally keep a couple of old terry towels and face cloths handy and just use a damp cloth to wipe my instrument down and then 'polish' it with a dry one. Larry White Vancouver BC Trmbman@aol.com wrote: > I just received a new Euphonium to play. I received it from the college I am > going to next year. It is a silver Besson model 765. Absolutely gorgeous. > That is the problem though, does anyone now I can keep it purdy.... What > kind of rag would you suggest to wipe the finger prints. > > Trombone and Euphonium Player > Visit my Webpage at > Http://Wactrm.tripod.com > or contact me at Trmbman@aol.com From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:48:52 EST From: Amtrom1@aol.com To: j.grisham@pmail.net, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else Message-ID: <97.20c4e19.25df6ca4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A handful of students here at the Eastman School of Music recently spent several days trying the new Conn trombones. We had access to the Conn 88HY-O, 88H-O, 88HT-O, 88H-CL, and 88HT-CL. We played duets, made recordings, took them into brass quintet coachings, and spent several hours playing a variety of pieces for a variety of listeners. Three students, as well as myseff, have decided to purchase a Conn as a result. Three of us decided on the standard open wrap instrument, while one preferred the Lindberg valve. The main difference that we found between the Lindberg models and the standard models where weight of tone/sound and depth of the slot for each partial. By that I mean - flexibility was noticeably better on the standard valve, while the Lindberg valve really locked into particular partial (but was in turn harder to get out of). Our reason for change is similar - we all loved how easy it is to play the Conn trombones. The slide is narrow - making it easy on the hand, there isn't a lot of extra metal hanging on it to deaden the sound, and they are great sounding instruments (not to mention cheap - in the case of the standard valve). These types of posts have helped me in the past - hopefully this will help out some of you without a week of unlimited access to 5 new horns. Aaron Moats Eastman School of Music PRISM Brass Quintet From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:18 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:18:38 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: j.grisham@pmail.net Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else Message-ID: <200002190419.XAA06981@fb04.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:17 PM 2/18/00 -0600, you wrote: >Well, after all of the questions and opinions, I finally got to tryout >basically every major horn while I was in San Antonion at the TMEA >Convention a week ago. Here is a list of everything that I tried: > >Bach 42BO >Bach 42BO w/ Haagman.. ??? valve (don't remember what it's called) >3 different Edwards instruments >Getzen Eterna >Holton TR160 (not sure about this either.. it's their standard horn that >basically matches the other brands like Bach 42, Conn 88H, etc.) >Conn 88H >Conn 88HYO >Conn 88HO >Conn 88HO w/ Silver plating >Conn 88HTO >Conn 88HO-SGX w/ Christian Lindberg valve >Conn 88HO w/ CL valve > >I might be leaving some out, but that's a pretty good list right there. > >Anyway, I walked around there with one of my directors, and someone else who >goes to my school (who hears me play a lot), and I played all of these >intruments for them. The one they all liked the best was the Conn 88HO >(just standard Conn 88H with Open wrap). That seems kind of weird, >comparing it to all those other very find instruments I played it against. > >I also liked the 88HO more than any of the other ones. For me, it had the >best sound, response, and openness (is that a word? :) ). The one that >came in a close 2nd was the Getzen Eterna. I liked it, but the sound wasn't >nowhere near as good as it was on the Conn. I got a warm sound on the >Edwards, but it seemed a little to heavy--not physically, but >sound-wise--for my tastes (woofy is the word that I've heard used for this, >also). My favorite was definitely the Conn. > >Then, after playing on it for a while, the UMI guy that was standing there >brought out this all-new tuning slide that they are developing for the 88H >line. I never knew that a tuning slide would make that much of a >difference!! The guy was telling me that it was made out of lighter metals, >and spun in a different way or something-or-other, but it made a difference >on my response and even a little on range. It even made the horn feel a >little more open, which I also like. Unfortunately, he told me that this >new tuning slide was still in development and probably wouldn't be available >until sometime next year, possibly. Has anyone ever heard of it before, and >do you have any additional information about this tuning slide? I want, I >want. :) > >Anyway, I have decided to get a Conn 88HO whenever I get a new horn here in >a few months. My Blessing B-88-O doesn't quite cut the mustard in most >situations for me. I also think that I'll order that tuning slide whenever >it comes out, too. > >Just some more of my thoughts.. I thought that it was kind of odd that a >standard stock Conn 88H played much better than an Edwards or even an >88H-SGX for me. I guess I'm just a little cheaper than some folks :). > >--Josh Grisham <>< >j.grisham@pmail.net ==================== Josh... Don't believe the hype. If the simplest Conn worked best for you, that's the right horn. If the new tuning slide works better, get it. Just because a horn has all the latest doodoads and The Principal Trombonist of the World's Greatest Orchestra highly recommends one, etc. etc. means NOTHING. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Some people like silver plating, some hate it. Some people love the heaviness of the Edwards, some don't. You did the right thing...the ONLY right thing, really...you compared almost all the available models (too bad there were no Shires or Yamaha horns there...) in your stylistic range at one time, with help from a trusted person listening to you, and you found the "right" horn for you. It's hard for many people to GET to a place where they can really compare horns like that, but it's always worth the trip and expense if you're really serious about buying a great instrument. Now if you're REALLY serious...arrange to get several of the same model...either at the factory or at a large dealership...and switch bells, slides and tuning slides until you find the best combination of those. Most dealers could care less which slide and tuning slide leave the store w/which bell, as long as they're all from the same model, and you'll be amazed at the differences among the combinations and permutations of the pieces of three or four horns. Good luck... S. P.S. I agree with you, except I liked the rose brass bells a little more than the yellow brass. Conn's making some really fine orchestral tenors now. From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:19 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:16:16 PST From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Conn 88HO vs. Everything Else Message-ID: <20000219051616.8353.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The other Aaron said aloud while typing: >A handful of students here at the Eastman School of Music recently spent >several days trying the new Conn trombones. We had access to the Conn >88HY-O, 88H-O, 88HT-O, 88H-CL, and 88HT-CL. We played duets, made >recordings, took them into brass quintet coachings, and spent several hours >playing a variety of pieces for a variety of listeners. Three students, as >well as myseff, have decided to purchase a Conn as a result. Three of us >decided on the standard open wrap instrument, while one preferred the >Lindberg valve. The main difference that we found between the Lindberg >models and the standard models where weight of tone/sound and depth of the >slot for each partial. By that I mean - flexibility was noticeably better >on >the standard valve, while the Lindberg valve really locked into particular >partial (but was in turn harder to get out of). Our reason for change is >similar - we all loved how easy it is to play the Conn trombones. The >slide >is narrow - making it easy on the hand, there isn't a lot of extra metal >hanging on it to deaden the sound, and they are great sounding instruments >(not to mention cheap - in the case of the standard valve). >These types of posts have helped me in the past - hopefully this will help >out some of you without a week of unlimited access to 5 new horns. I sang quietly to myself: How I wish I could play other horns in situations like that! The opportunities described are those about which we merely dream here at our minor school in south Georgia. For 10 minutes apiece I got to try a Conn 88H-CL, a Conn 88H-O, a Getzen Custom, and a Bach 42T at the GMEA Convention. At our local music store there's a couple of Getzens and Bach 42T's and a Conn 88H-O with a nasty slide. Got to play the Conn for 30 minutes or so. This one seemed brittle at higher dynamics, and I could barely play a scale because of the condition of the slide. I've never before met a Conn I didn't like, and this being the only one they had I didn't get a great impression of it at all. Maybe if I had three or four to try and a chance to clean the slide.... By the way, I'm in the market for a large-bore tenor now because I'm selling my beloved King 3B to a youngster with incredible talent and more use for a smaller horn than I. Hopefully I'll get to borrow it on occasion when necessary. Hey, what's the going rate for Getzen Customs out there now? Our local music store may be selling them cheap right now, and if they're actually offering a deal then I might take them up on one. -Aaron Roth | /| | _ / | | ___________________/---/ | | / | | / __________________ | | / / _||_ || \---\_ | || / /Conn\ || \ | | \ \ \Bone/ || \| | \ \__||______||_______________________________________ | \_________________________________________________<> \ | | | | | ___/ \ \ | |ø---- __|_|____|_|___________________________/ / | | }________________________________________/ | |_---- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:19 2000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:06:30 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Finding the spot... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000218210630.007e9400@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 09:00 PM 2/18/00 -0600, Josh Grisham wrote: >One quick funny story (at least I think it's >funny) that happened when I was playing the Symphonie Fantastique excerpt: >I was really nervous about the Eb (which, sadly, I missed, BTW, but at least >I didn't cop out and take it down an octave), so as I was playing the first >bit of it, I was playing it by memory. Thus, as I played, I was looking up >at the ceiling (I guess I thought, "Look high, play high," or something.. :) >), but after I got past the high stuff, I looked back down to the page to >get my spot back. I couldn't find where I was!! I looked up and down and >up and down the page and I couldn't find it at all!! So, I had to stop for >a second and find my spot and then start again! Funny stuff, indeed! :) >The sad thing is that I think it really hurt my results. Similar thing happened to me some 30 years ago, only in Blue Bells. Back then, we had to MEMORIZE our piece and the variations just ate me up. I finally had to stop, look at the piano score, and go again. And guess what? That gave me an instant 4 (with 5 being the lowest score possible)! No chance for anything higher since I hadn't MEMORIZED the piece... YES, I still think the requirement was flawed, and YES, it still bothers me sometimes. I played a LOT better than a 4. And it soured me on music for a few years, but I was fortunate enough to get going again later. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:19 2000 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:16:18 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Vier Equale? Herr Beck Message-ID: <200002190619.AAA24845@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_1475419==_.ALT" Ya know, I really have to say that Steve Beck seems to be the only person on this list who has a sense of perspective.  I would have left the list months ago if Beck hadn't presented himself to me as the multi-voice of reason, unreason and treason (not to mention he is frequently the only source of humor in any of my email  :) 

Hat's off to you Mr. Beck.  Many people may not recognize your humanity, but I do!

Signed,
Humbled in Minneapolis
(Mic Coil)

At 06:14 PM 2/18/00 , you wrote:
Mike Coyle quoted:

"...the refrain was blown by the trombonists." 

I bet the trumpets didn't play it so well either!

                                        -Steve

 From ???@??? Mon Feb 21 08:38:19 2000 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:08:41 -0800 From: "Dilshad Kasmani" To: "Trombone-L (E-mail)" Subject: Conn 4H questions? Message-ID: <000c01bf7ab9$01c3f0a0$1907aec7@zrrs1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently picked up an Elkhart Conn 4H in really good condition. My question is the following: the slide is engraved with "Connquest" just below the mouthpiece receiver, and I know the 77H was an "step-up" horn known as a "Connquest", but was the 4H ever labeled as such? Or did I happen to get a mismatched slide and bell combo? I think that this is the case. The slide feels just like my 48H's, and is interchangeable - giving me the idea that the 4H's slide is a .500" bore rather than the .485" it is supposed to be. Any idea's? and does anybody happen to have an old 4H slide sitting around that they wouldn't mind parting with? Thanks in advance. Dilshad Kasmani