TROMBONE-L Digest 1593 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Wet lip versus dry lip by sabutin@mindspring.com 2) RE: Right mouthpiece for Conn 88H by David Molter 3) RE: pay scales, etc by David Molter 4) Re: Wet lip versus dry lip by Donn Schaefer 5) RE: Philosophy - Long - Delete if you are not interested. by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 6) My mistake by sabutin@mindspring.com 7) Culture: was Musicians, salaries + waste by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 8) RE: Daily Routines by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 9) King 2B for sale on Ebay by longtones@mindspring.com 10) curious breath pressure observation by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 11) RE: Philosophy by Douglas Yeo 12) Re: Right mouthpiece for Conn 88H by Servo149@aol.com 13) RE: Right mouthpiece for Conn 88H by "Daniel Pliskin" 14) Re: Birth Announcement(s) by "Daniel Pliskin" 15) Valve maintenance by "Berggren, Erik" 16) RE: Philosophy by Dennis Clason 17) RE: pay scales, etc by Angie Brunk 18) RE: pay scales, etc by "Berggren, Erik" 19) No Subject by TonyC789@aol.com 20) Re: Salaries by "Adolphus Sprott" 21) Re: pay scales, etc by "Adolphus Sprott" 22) Playing in the new arrival by "Nicholas Peter Hayes" 23) Copyright issue by Beth Lewis 24) Re: Salaries by "Daniel Pliskin" 25) Re: No Subject by Earl Needham 26) Postponing while at TMEA by j.grisham@pmail.net (Josh Grisham) 27) Lewis Van Haney competition by "Aaron Roth" 28) postpone by "Adolphus Sprott" 29) Tuneup Intonation Training System by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 30) Looking for a bass trombone by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 31) UT Honors Band by Laura 32) Armstrong (was: Wet lip versus dry lip) by Hanspeter Schmid 33) Re: Philosophy - Long - Delete if you are not interested. by "Adrian Drover" 34) Re: Copyright issue by "Adrian Drover" 35) professional - amateur by Charles From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:31:18 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: daveburch@fuse.net Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Wet lip versus dry lip Message-ID: <200002081333.IAA04872@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:32 PM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Dear listers, > >Did anyone ever win the wet-lip-versus-dry-lip debate? > >I've played with two wet lips ever since my year of college trombone >study. My teacher was a Donald Reinhart advocate, and Reinhart liked wet >lip playing to facilitate minute adjustments of the non-anchor lip (I >don't guarantee that I remember this exactly right, but that's what I >recall). ==================== That's what I've heard, too. ====================== > >Well, I've been overhauling my embouchure for the last year, and for a >week now I've been experimenting with dry lips. My lower lip always gets >beat up by a long hard rehearsal, and I've theorized that allowing it to >roam free over the wet mouthpiece rim allows it to fall too low, so that >the rim presses my lip into the sharp edges of the lower teeth and >bruises it. ===================== Quite possible. ================== > >I've combined the dry lips with Joe Alessi's advice to position the >lower lip on the mouthpiece first, placing the lower lip high enough >that any mouthpiece pressure will be applied safely against the base of >the lower teeth. Tonight, I played a 2 1/2 hour big band rehearsal, of >which 1 1/2 hours was on the lead book, in this manner. I have never >come home ready to practice some more, but tonight I did. It feels >great. > >So, I ask: Is there any concensus these days about playing wet or dry? ========================= No consensus...I would say about 20 to 1 against dry lip playing, but those 5 percenters can play too. (Louis Armstrong comes to mind immediately...) I play dry...I switched a long time ago, and it immediately helped my playing. It seemed to make my embouchure more solid, and it improved my sound and playing, seemed to give it more muscle and definition. I've experimented many times w/going back to wet lips, or at least ONE wet lip (non-anchor), and have always decided that the advantages...the ability to adjust, the avoidance of the hassle of KEEPING the lips dry...never outweighed the advantages of dry lip playing. For ME. Nevertheless, if 19 people are successful doing one thing, and only one is successful doing the opposite, you have to look VERY carefully at what's going on before committing yourself... Remember...if it works, it's good. Later... S. > >-- > >@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ > > ------ Dave Burch ------ > ---- Hamilton, Ohio ----- > -- daveburch@fuse.net -- > >Church and community trombonist, baritone hornist, > recorderist, choral singer > >After Hours Big Band >Cincinnati Brass Band > at http://cincinnati.brassband.com >Hamilton-Fairfield Symphony Chorale (and sometimes Orchestra) > at http://www.hfso.org > >Senior programmer/analyst, Mercy Health Partners > >@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ > From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:42:10 -0500 (EST) From: David Molter To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Right mouthpiece for Conn 88H Message-ID: <384413559.950017330133.JavaMail.root@web25.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll preface this with the standard disclaimer: there is no ONE mouthpiece that's correct for everyone. I have seen guys playing 88Hs with everything from a 7C with a shank adaptor to a Schilke 59, and all worked. It depends, as many have said, on how YOU want to sound. Over the past year I have tried almost every large shank MP available, and I've settled on the Bach 5GS. For me, it gives me better upper range (above G), lots of body and a free low range. It was a substantial improvement over the 6 1/2 AL that came with my (used) horn. In a pinch, you can even use the 5GS for bass trombone. I played last weekend in a trombone ensemble with about 26 other players, and if I learned one thing, it is that there is no standard instrument. We had people playing almost very brand of horn, from a 1945 Bach 12 to a brand new double-Thayer Edwards bass. Maybe one or tow of us had the same MPs, but I'll bet there were almost as many sizes as players. And they all sounded great. It's what works for you, although suggestions can help narrow the choices. Dave Molter Pittsburgh, PA From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:46:00 -0500 (EST) From: David Molter To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: pay scales, etc Message-ID: <380449122.950021160096.JavaMail.root@web25.pub01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The discussion on pay scales has been interesting. Much has been said about the lack of monetary rewards available to those who choose music as a career, and I'll agree for the most part that musicians are underpaid. But I also have to apply some of the same logic that I apply to athletes: if you are being paid to do what you love, consider yourself fortunate and keep the grousing to a minimum. It galls me no end to see a football player who received a $3 million signing bonus say that he did it for the benefit of all other football players, "so that they won't have to take less than they deserve." And it miffs me somewhat to hears people complain about making $42K a year to do what they love. In my misspent youth, I made an uncertain living as a rock musician for nearly 20 years. Never made more than $25K a year. Never complained about the money or about other guys making more than our bands. I figured we earned what we were worth. I no longer play professionally, and it has taken me roughly 12 years to get into a position in my current career that pays me $42K annually -- close to what some symphony players make. It is far more than I ever made as a musician, and far more than I probably ever could make given my talent level. Salary structures in music will never be the same as those in professional sports, but as someone else pointed out, it's a matter of priorities among the public. They'd a rather pay $65 to see a lousy football team than $12 to see a great symphony. I don't want to ramble, but it seems to me that the arts have always been undersupported by the public. I live in Pittsburgh and the Pittsburgh Symphony has trouble filling its 2500 seat hall. Same for our ballet, and arts events here seem to have a very limited shelf life. Yet the Steelers (football) sell out, even though they stink, and monster truck battles will fill an arena while a pops concert on the same night plays to 65% audience capacity. Those who choose music as a career should be aware of the sacrifices involved, and although I don't begrudge them the occasional moan, it's a fact of life that the people who run the show usually make more than the artists. Although I'm not in my current job entirely by choice, it is where my accumulated choices have led me, I'm lucky to be making what I make, and it makes sense for my family. Someday I hope to be in a financial position that will allow me to back off from my "real" job and get back to playing. I Play now for free in three amateur ensembles. It keeps me sane. But if someone offers me $25 to play a gig, I'm not gonna turn it down because it could be going to some other musician's pocket. Although professional musicians often can't control WHERE they are, they are WHAT they are by choice. Living with choices is part of life. Dave Molter Pitsburgh, PA From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:00:20 -0600 (CST) From: Donn Schaefer To: sabutin@mindspring.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Wet lip versus dry lip Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 sabutin@mindspring.com wrote: > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:31:18 -0500 > > At 11:32 PM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Did anyone ever win the wet-lip-versus-dry-lip debate? > > > >So, I ask: Is there any concensus these days about playing wet or dry? > ========================= > > No consensus...I would say about 20 to 1 against dry lip playing, but > those 5 percenters can play too. (Louis Armstrong comes to mind > immediately...) Louis Armstrong also blew out his Obicularis Oris (sp?). (The ring of muscle which surrounds the opening in your mouth.) He required an operation to get it stitched up. This injury might have be related to playing with dry chops. (I don't know, just speculation on my part.) Here is the interesting tidbit: Armstrong's mouthpiece had notches cut into it to help his chops get a better grip. A photograph of this infamous mouthpiece reminded me of a Medieval torture device. :) Cheerfully yours (and licking my chops), Donn Schaefer From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:02:41 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Philosophy - Long - Delete if you are not interested. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I guess since you made my private post pubic, I should reply in public. This is long so please delete unless you are into philosophy and politics. > ==================================== > > Our culture: > > How could you have MISSED it? > > It's EVERYWHERE. > > All over TV. > All over radio. > In the movies > In a thousand thousand bookstores and libraries. > On the internet. > In our schools. > In the voices of our millions. > All over T.V.? In the movies? I seriously hope that you do not believe that Hollywood provides an accurate representation of life in America. If you do, you have been in New York WAY too long. > Charlie Parker, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Norman Mailer, Charles Ives, Mary > Lou Williams, Perry Como, Mario Cuomo, Michael Jordan, Charles Fleischer > (Popeye, Betty Boop), Bugs Bunny, Mark Twain, Eudora Welty, Spencer Tracy, > Florence Nightingale, Moms Mabley, Lenny Bruce, Oliver Hardy, Oliver > Stone, > Robert DeNiro, Marlon Brando, Snoop Doggy Dog, Merle Haggard, Lucille > Ball, > Machito, Malcolm X, John F. Kennedy, Eleanor Roosevelt, Duke Ellington, > Louis Armstrong, Preston Sturges, Ernest Hemingway, Billie Holiday, Dinah > Washington, Peggy Lee, Babe Ruth...whaddayou, kiddin' me or what??? > > There aren't enough letters on the internet for me to include the names > of all the people who have formed our culture. > > (I could do an hour on just TROMBONISTS...) > > S. > That just proves my point. Tremendous diversity, no real homogeneous culture. And that (to stay with the original point of our formerly private discussion) is why we are not like Europe and Japan. And that is also why it is quite useless to compare the musical situation in the United States with Europe and Japan. Some Ukrainian powerplant workers came to visit our plant on an exchange program a few years back. They marveled at the fact that we were tearing down perfectly serviceable buildings (at least by their standards) to build newer ones, or worse yet, parking lots. The also marveled at all of the different styles of automobiles and clothing. This was hard for these people to understand. In their own country, they have stood on walls that were built centuries ago. They still followed some customs that dated back millennia. I told them that what was valued most in America was diversity and change. This country has little time or value for what is old, be it its people, its customs, or its art. We are always searching for what is new and different. Tradition means little to us in this country. Of course, there are pockets of cultures within this country that break all of these stereotypes. But, people have names for these people. Some call them snobs. Others call them backward, or old fashioned. Some call them cults. Some even call them hateful or bigoted when they don't embrace the most current fad. What does this have to do with music, or the trombone, or the plight of musicians? In some ways, everything. Let us look at our musical "culture". Did you know that at one time Guy Lombardo's band cleared in one week what a company executive would make in a year? (Stupid question. Of course you do). What do you think that his orchestra would make today? Or how about some of the Jazz and Big Band greats of the 1930s and 1940s? Could they make a decent living today? Our orchestras are in the same boat. Why? Because none of the above are the current fad. Yeah, what some people call Jazz is making a comeback. However I have not come to the point that I embrace Kenny G. with the same gusto that I would Ellington, Armstrong or Parker. The point that I am trying to make is that a "culture", such as Europe or Japan, that values its past and traditions is more likely to respect those that preserve its past and traditions. And, in many ways, a culture is preserved in its art and music. A "culture" such as ours (I'll humor you for now and admit that we have one) that does not value its past but is always looking for something new will most likely not value those that try to preserve the past. Hence the plight of many artists and musicians. The ones that make it big are the ones that are willing to sell themselves to the newest fad, or that happen to last until what they are currently doing becomes the next fad. That is one of the things that is different than you and I. You are an artist. I am a technician. You produce music. I produce electricity. You bring beauty and culture to the world. You try to bring happiness to the people that you "serve". I bring people progress and economic growth. I give them light so they can see, and power to run their machines, and heat for their homes. They value me more than you because they can only see the immediate benefits that I can give them versus what you can provide. But what is your downside? Mine: I tear open the earth to get its coal and uranium. I pump all kinds or pollutants into the air which come back to destroy the forests. I provide the power for the industries that pollute your water and your land. But I bring progress, so I am more highly valued. I am valued for what I provide NOW. The people of Europe and Japan, at least now, tend to be more forward thinking. They put their income into savings at a rate much higher than those of us in the US. Their businesses tend to make investments and decisions that look toward the long haul, not just until the end of the next quarter. That is their culture. And I believe that is why they at least appear to value their artists more than we do over here. I think that things will change in this country. In fact, some of this change has already begun. But things can change for the worse very quickly. Positive change takes time. There may again come a time when professionals such as pastors, teachers, musicians and artists are viewed with respect and appreciated for what they really bring to a culture. Perhaps there will come a time when once again integrity, honor, and service mean more than accumulating huge wealth. When that happens, your lot will change and perhaps we will trade places in the economic scheme of things. I hope you live long enough to see it. I don't think that I will. Sorry for the long post, Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:36:29 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: My mistake Message-ID: <200002081538.KAA08695@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like to apologize to Ken Dowdy...it appears I posted something he sent to me privately, onto the trombone list. My error...I'll try to check the headers more carefully in the future. S. From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:36:25 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Culture: was Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Our culture: > > How could you have MISSED it? > > It's EVERYWHERE. > > All over TV. > All over radio. > In the movies > In a thousand thousand bookstores and libraries. > On the internet. > In our schools. > In the voices of our millions. > A lot depends on what is meant by "culture". The American Heritage dictionary has two pertinent definitions: 1) (well, #5 in the dictionary) The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought characteristic of a community or population. 2) Intellectual and artistic activity. Sam clearly means the first definition. Much is included in that one that just as clearly has no place in the second. The first definition is clear enough. I suppose everyone understands the meaning of totality. But what is intellectual activity? What is artistic activity? If these words mean anything at all, then there must be things that fall outside the realm of intellectual or artistic, but as soon as someone tries to point out what that might be, someone else will brand him as some kind of elitist snob. So, according to the second definition, what is American culture? What will be included and what will be excluded? That question has been at the heart of at least one flame war in the recent past and will no doubt be at the heart of flame wars in the indefinite future. OSHA and the EPA have recalled my asbestos clothing, so I will not attempt an answer. But I will insist that American culture in the second sense is much less than the totality of the first sense and that the purpose of almost any definition is as much to exclude as include. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:41:01 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: sabutin@mindspring.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Daily Routines Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082F37@LEE2> Sabutin points out the flaw in my idea and is correct. Chop, smash, as Bobby Fisher (remember him?) used to say. However, (gracefully admitting defeat while still claiming to be right ): While I think he is right that the embouchure is the basis for the rest of the toolbox, and no amount of work will improve cleanness of execution if the embouchure isn't correct to support it, I also think embouchure is a "necessary but not sufficient" condition. It makes sense that if you do your long tones and flexibilities your tongue should take care of itself. But apparently that doesn't result in clean playing. I hear lots of advanced players doing stuff that sounds really sloppy even to non-musicians. I guess i don't really know why this is. It is worse on trombone than other instruments, IMO. Now, how much tone is enough? Well, if you are auditioning for Doug Yeo's job, it better be a lot. But if you are gigging in noisy bars with a bad sound man, maybe a good basic tone, by which i mean 1)sounds like a trombone and nothing else and 2) has no obvious faults, might be enough. Once you are there it is probably execution and creativity that make you successful, not great tone. Of course I could be wrong again!!! yours, tim richardson > -----Original Message----- > From: sabutin@mindspring.com [SMTP:sabutin@mindspring.com] > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 2:33 PM > To: Richardson, Tim > Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: RE: Daily Routines > > At 10:23 AM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Assuming function should precede form: > >There probably should be a fairly significant difference in the daily > >routine of the raw player with some big gaps in his/her skill level (like > >me) and the daily routine of the accomplished player who needs to > maintain > >and refine. Given sufficient practice time, it wouldn't matter, but most > of > >us aren't in that boat. You can probably get more bang for your practice > >hour working on your faults during your development period; I suspect > the > >efforts on tone and range are overdone (this may be heresy to most). > Tone > >and range probably don't develop much faster for the extra effort, and > what > >makes the amateur glaringly obvious is usually sloppiness, not tone and > >range. > > ======================= > > NO. > > What makes the amateur glaringly obvious is the sloppiness that COMES > for a weak embouchure...sloppy sound, sloppy pitch, sloppy flexibility. > > Without good crisp and controlled breaks between the partials...a > function of embouchure...NO amount of tonguing is going to work. > > Tone and range...embouchure...DOES develop faster, in direct proportion > to the effort invested. > > Every time. > > This doesn't mean I disagree with any of the standard daily routine > >advice. But I don't know that I'd spend hours on long tones and neglect > >articulation, it should really be the other way around. > >yours, > >tim richardson > > ================== > > No again, and I'll tell you why. > > Moving articulated notes are simply a long note interrupted by the > tongue quickly stopping the air and the quick, precise movements of the > embouchure during that brief stoppage. > > Get your long tones and flexibility together, and the tongue will > almost > take care of itself. > > I mean, we can ALL say "ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta" at a > reasonable speed, can't we? > > Tah Tah... > > S. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sabutin@mindspring.com [SMTP:sabutin@mindspring.com] > >> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 8:32 AM > >> To: ealewis@indiana.edu > >> Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > >> Subject: Re: Daily Routines > >> > >> At 05:18 PM 2/4/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> >Hi all, > >> > > >> >This mostly directed to professional players and teachers, but I was > >> >wondering what are some exercizes or etudes that you make it a point > to > >> do > >> >each day? Some people call these a "warm-up," but what I mean are > >> >techniques that you have practiced day after day for years, whether > you > >> >are required to have them down or not. > >> > >> ================================ > >> > >> Embouchure studies. > >> > >> Embouchure studies. > >> > >> Embouchure studies. > >> > >> Embouchure studies. > >> > >> All kinds. > >> > >> Every day. > >> > >> Long tones, harmonics, flexibilities, slow, connected long and short > >> scales, fast scales, range studies (both directions). > >> > >> Remington, Schlossberg, Caruso (if you can find someone who REALLY > >> studied w/Carmine Caruso long enough to understand what he was trying > to > >> teach...the books don't cut it, in my opinion). > >> > >> I have played with literally hundreds of professional brass > >> players...some could play very high, some very low, some very loud, > some > > >> very soft, some could play fast, some had a great legato...but almost > ALL > >> of them had a good, solid embouchure, and with very few exceptions, all > of > >> them took care of that embouchure every day w/various exercises. > >> > >> The musculature necessary to play a brass instrument is > extraordinarily > >> strange...not many humans in the history of our evolution have > developed > >> the muscles around their mouth to such a great degree, and as a result > we > >> are not genetically programmed to have great strength in that region. > >> W/the > >> exception of wind players (and possibly professional smilers like MCs, > >> politicians and other professional boot lickers), NO ONE has EVER > gotten > >> an > >> evolutionary boost from having muscles around their mouth that could > bench > >> press a locomotive. > >> > >> If you want such a thing, you have to exercise to get it, and > exercise > >> to properly maintain it. > >> > >> 'Tain't natural... > >> > >> Sometimes, someone's natural proclivities combined w/a > >> performance/rehearsal schedule will be sufficient in this regard, but > >> rarely. > >> > >> Mostly, y'gotta dig it out by yourself. > >> > >> Every day. > >> > >> Later... > >> > >> S. > >> > >> ---snip--- > >> > >> > > > > From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:54:07 -0600 From: longtones@mindspring.com To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: King 2B for sale on Ebay Message-ID: <000001bf7255$1ccc4940$25d68ad1@c.moodie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=256350333 From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:06:16 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: curious breath pressure observation Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082F38@LEE2> I had an old blood pressure cuff lying around the house, and the kids broke it. They pumped it up to 300 mm Hg and Ka-Pow! Very loud but brief noise. Well, there wasn't a warning label on it . They got in trouble of course but not too much, it was not intentionally destructive, just scientific investigation. Anyway yesterday i was blowing into the tube on the gage part of it, and with an apparently open throat, air coming from the lungs, 60 mm Hg is all I could get, no matter how I tried to support. If I squeezed with my cheeks instead, 80 mm was easy. (No, not those cheeks! ) So that's how circular breathing works? Maybe that's also how I can get a very loud but very short note? by adding my mouth "squirt" to the normal breath? yours, tim richardson From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:07:54 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Philosophy Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 9:02 AM -0600 2/8/00, DOWDY, KENNETH S wrote: >This country has little time or value for what is >old, be it its people, its customs, or its art. We are always searching for >what is new and different. Tradition means little to us in this country. >Of course, there are pockets of cultures within this country that break all >of these stereotypes. But, people have names for these people. Some call >them snobs. Others call them backward, or old fashioned. Some call them >cults. Some even call them hateful or bigoted when they don't embrace the >most current fad. This thread has been quite interesting, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Thanks to all who are contributing. I don't wish to add anything of my own at the moment, but I think Paul Hindemith can. I have quoted these words on occasion on the list (and in other fora as well): Selection to "The Posthorn," which appears in Hindemith's Alto Horn Sonata: ===== Nicht deshalb ist das Alte gut, weil es vergangen, das Neue nicht vortrefflich, weil wir mit ihm gehen; und mehr hat keiner je an GlŸck erfahren, als er befŠhigt war zu tragen, zu verstehen. And dir ist's, hinter Eile, LŠrm und Mannigfalt das StŠndige, die Stille, Sinn, Gestalt zurŸckzufinden und neu zu bewahren. (Here follows Hindemith's own English translation) The old is good not just because it's past, nor is the new supreme because we live with it, and never yet a man felt greater joy than he could bear or truly comprehend. Your task it is, amid confusion, rush, and noise to grasp the lasting, calm, and meaningful, and finding it anew, to hold and treasure it. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:28:36 EST From: Servo149@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Right mouthpiece for Conn 88H Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Might I suggest a Doug Elliot LT 101 Rim with LT F Cup and F8 shank? I have one for my Blessing and my teacher, ( Russ Widener ), says it is the best setup he has used on his 88H. A little pricey ( I got mine for $135 ), but well worth it. Tate Addis From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:58:40 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Right mouthpiece for Conn 88H Message-ID: <20000208205840.74723.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed With all the talk about the 5GS, I'd like to mention the 5. I just bought one. It has a way smaller aperture, which makes it way easier to play (for me..I have a 0.500" bore horn). I like my 5GS too, but it takes way too much air for my liking. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:51:53 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Birth Announcement(s) Message-ID: <20000208205153.88613.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Ann & Doug are proud to announce the arrival of Alexander Jacob and Evan >Douglas Crane. Alexander came into the world at 11:31 a.m., February 7, >2000 weighing 5 lb. 12 oz. and measuring 19 1/2 inches long. Evan >immediately followed at 11:32 a.m. weighing 4 lbs. 14 oz. and measuring 19 >3/4 inches long. Well, I guess you won't have time to play trombone, for a while. We'll be hearing back from you in a year or two. DanP PS. Sara, our foster daughters 6-month old, loves the trombone, played softly, that is. Now if the rest of my family would only follow suit... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:45:02 -0600 From: "Berggren, Erik" To: "'Trombone-L'" Subject: Valve maintenance Message-ID: <69B69101614FD3119D9F00104B9883E70E8E42@bkxchusr01.bk.state.ks.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My one-owner Bach 36 is about 25 years old. I've never done anything to the trigger and valve mechanisms except occasional lubrication. A previous post mentioned replacing bumpers/stops and strings (which I don't have) on a regular basis. My question is, if the trigger and valve mechanisms aren't posing any obvious problem, is there a need to do regular maintenance other than what I have been doing? Also, is there ever a need to totally dismantle or disassemble the valve to do any kind of maintenance? If so, is this something a person should leave to the professionals? I've always been curious as to how the valve comes apart, but not to the point of really going after the only one I have! Thanks for your comments/advice! From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:54:35 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Philosophy Message-ID: <200002082055.NAA39708@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: yeo@yeodoug.com trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from Douglas Yeo 02/08/00 2:07pm -0500 > Nicht deshalb ist das Alte gut, weil es vergangen, > das Neue nicht vortrefflich, weil wir mit ihm gehen; > und mehr hat keiner je an Glück erfahren, > als er befähigt war zu tragen, zu verstehen. > And dir ist's, hinter Eile, Lärm und Mannigfalt > das Ständige, die Stille, Sinn, Gestalt > zurückzufinden und neu zu bewahren. > > (Here follows Hindemith's own English translation) > > The old is good not just because it's past, > nor is the new supreme because we live with it, > and never yet a man felt greater joy > than he could bear or truly comprehend. > Your task it is, amid confusion, rush, and noise > to grasp the lasting, calm, and meaningful, > and finding it anew, to hold and treasure it. Every time I read this poem, I find something new. And this although I'm not particularly fond of poetry. Today this reminds of the poverty of those who understand and can express themselves in only one language. Reading the poem in German (something I haven't done in many years -- Vielen danken, Fraulein Zaleon und Frau Kraus, dass ich Deutsche lesen) reminds that there are shades of meaning and interpretation that don't carry across in translation. I'm not sure how one convinces parochial US students that fluency in another language is important. If you only know one language, you don't know language. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:52:42 -0600 From: Angie Brunk To: kingbone@earthlink.net Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: pay scales, etc Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:46 AM -0500 2/8/00, David Molter wrote: >The discussion on pay scales has been interesting. Much has been said about >the lack of monetary rewards available to those who choose music as a >career, and I'll agree for the most part that musicians are underpaid. But I >also have to apply some of the same logic that I apply to athletes: if you >are being paid to do what you love, consider yourself fortunate and keep the >grousing to a minimum. It galls me no end to see a football player who >received a $3 million signing bonus say that he did it for the benefit of >all other football players, "so that they won't have to take less than they >deserve." And it miffs me somewhat to hears people complain about making >$42K a year to do what they love. While I agree that a person should choose a career with their eyes fully open, I also think that a person should work to improve conditions in their field. I love the profession that I have chosen. That doesn't change the fact that I still need to make a decent living in order to take care of my basic needs. Librarians have raised the status and pay of the profession, but we still have a long way to go. If an organization decides they want to engage a professional on a full time basis, they should pay a living wage. This is true whether that person is a professional musician who loves his/her work or an engineer who does it for a paycheck. Loving my work does not alter my basic reason for working-to keep myself and the ferrets fed and housed. -- Angie Brunk MLS Indiana University School of Library and Information Science 1999 "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever."--Clarence Darrow From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:00:21 -0600 From: "Berggren, Erik" To: "'Trombone-L'" Subject: RE: pay scales, etc Message-ID: <69B69101614FD3119D9F00104B9883E70E8E46@bkxchusr01.bk.state.ks.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I've been hesitant to get in on this discussion, but felt like Mr. Molter's comments most closely parallel mine. I made a conscious choice during college not to pursue music as a career because of the pay scale I thought I could expect to receive for the opportunities I thought I would be faced with in that career. Nonetheless, I've continued to play at my pleasure with or without remuneration. I've never intended to step on a professional's shoes or opportunities by accepting pay for play, and never have I placed a requirement that I get paid before I accept a playing opportunity. In the small midwestern town I'm in, it seems as though willing players are hard to come by for certain events. I'm glad to play, paid or not. In fact, I've offered to forego my pay so there would be funds available to give another musician an opportunity to play. In pursuing the higher profile playing opportunities, I'm often asked (up front) if I teach somewhere, which gives me the impression that some opportunities seem to carry with them a prerequisite that you must be a career musician to be accepted. There has to be a barrier between professional-level players and an amateur-level players, and those aspiring and/or growing to the higher levels of playing should not be intimidated into foregoing accepting pay for any gig just because the better players in their market area aren't willing to accept the terms. If that were the case, the instrumentalists would be the ones dictating what "cultural" events made available to a given community. It seems that those playing at the professional level can decide to accept or not accept their level of pay. If the level of pay is not acceptable, they have to find a market or a career that offers the level of pay they think they deserve. I'm sorry that I can't offer any suggestions as to how any worker accomplishes an increase in pay without taking on additional responsibilities. At my amateur level of play, I assume I'm being asked because no one else has accepted. In my idealist world, everyone would play simply and entirely for the enjoyment of the listener(s), and more importantly, their own enjoyment in playing and making music with others. If they get paid for that, more power to 'em. I'm simply totally satisfied that there are opportunities out there for me to play. -----Original Message----- From: David Molter [SMTP:kingbone@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:46 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: pay scales, etc The discussion on pay scales has been interesting. Much has been said about the lack of monetary rewards available to those who choose music as a career, and I'll agree for the most part that musicians are underpaid. But I also have to apply some of the same logic that I apply to athletes: if you are being paid to do what you love, consider yourself fortunate and keep the grousing to a minimum. It galls me no end to see a football player who received a $3 million signing bonus say that he did it for the benefit of all other football players, "so that they won't have to take less than they deserve." And it miffs me somewhat to hears people complain about making $42K a year to do what they love. In my misspent youth, I made an uncertain living as a rock musician for nearly 20 years. Never made more than $25K a year. Never complained about the money or about other guys making more than our bands. I figured we earned what we were worth. I no longer play professionally, and it has taken me roughly 12 years to get into a position in my current career that pays me $42K annually -- close to what some symphony players make. It is far more than I ever made as a musician, and far more than I probably ever could make given my talent level. Salary structures in music will never be the same as those in professional sports, but as someone else pointed out, it's a matter of priorities among the public. They'd a rather pay $65 to see a lousy football team than $12 to see a great symphony. I don't want to ramble, but it seems to me that the arts have always been undersupported by the public. I live in Pittsburgh and the Pittsburgh Symphony has trouble filling its 2500 seat hall. Same for our ballet, and arts events here seem to have a very limited shelf life. Yet the Steelers (football) sell out, even though they stink, and monster truck battles will fill an arena while a pops concert on the same night plays to 65% audience capacity. Those who choose music as a career should be aware of the sacrifices involved, and although I don't begrudge them the occasional moan, it's a fact of life that the people who run the show usually make more than the artists. Although I'm not in my current job entirely by choice, it is where my accumulated choices have led me, I'm lucky to be making what I make, and it makes sense for my family. Someday I hope to be in a financial position that will allow me to back off from my "real" job and get back to playing. I Play now for free in three amateur ensembles. It keeps me sane. But if someone offers me $25 to play a gig, I'm not gonna turn it down because it could be going to some other musician's pocket. Although professional musicians often can't control WHERE they are, they are WHAT they are by choice. Living with choices is part of life. Dave Molter Pitsburgh, PA From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:48 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:29:19 EST From: TonyC789@aol.com To: dja1@axe.humboldt.edu, ARBales@sjcb.org, MAESTRABDT@aol.com, PamyB@aol.com, CBohmler@aol.com, Rvctbone@aol.com, philip.chevallard@peterson.af.mil, Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <22.1bc2630.25d200cf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message is long but important. On NPR's Morning Edition, Nina Totenberg reported that if the Supreme Court supports Congress to cut the budget of the National Endowment of the Arts, it is in effect the end of NEA. This situation creates great concerns about Congressional funding for creative arts in America, since NEA provides major support for NPR (National Public Radio), PBS (Public Broadcasting System), and numerous other creative and performing arts. If NEA is lost or weakened, our lives will be similarly diminished. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and streamline their services, some government officials believe that the funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion of funding for something which is seen as not worthwhile. Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per year, and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year. A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. Each year the Senate and House Appropriations committees each have 13 subcommittees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. Each subcommittee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October 1. The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by our making our voices heard. Please add your name to this list and forward it to friends who believe in favor of what this stands for. The full list will be forwarded to the President of the United States, the Vice President, and the Speaker of the House, whose office has in the past been the instigator of the action to cut funding to these worthwhile programs. This petition is being passed around the Internet. Please add your name to it so funding can be maintained for the NEA, NPR, and PBS. THIS IS OUR CHANCE TO MAKE INTERNET TECHNOLOGY WORK AS A VOICE IN OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM. IT'S EASIER THAN EVER TO MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD. Please keep the petition rolling. Do not reply to me. Add your name and locale to the list and forward it to others to sign. If you prefer not to sign, please send the list to the email address given below. This is being forwarded to numerous people at once. It won't matter if many people receive the same list as the names are being managed. This is for anyone who thinks NPR and PBS deserve $1.12/year of their taxes. If you sign, please forward the list to others. If not, please don't kill it. ****If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th, etc., signer of this petition, please forward a copy to: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu . This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to everyone you know and help keep these programs alive. Thank you. (NOTE: It is preferable you SELECT the entirety of this letter and COPY it into a NEW outgoing message, rather than simply forwarding it.) In your new outgoing message add your name to the bottom of the list, then send it on. Or, if the option is available, do a SEND AGAIN. 1. David Liberman, Sylva, NC 2. Marie Harrison, Sylva, NC 3. Randi Beckmann, Ithaca, NY 4. Bill Wertheim, Mt. Vernon, NY 5. Marlene Wertheim, Mt. Vernon, NY 6. George Wertheim, San Francisco, CA. 7. Linda Wertheim, San Francisco, CA 8. Linda R. Semi, Walnut Creek, CA 9. Margaret C. Forness, Pleasant Hill, CA 10. Phillip D. Rubenstein, Syracuse, NY 11. Timothy J. Connell, Madison, WI 12. Stacia E. Jesner, Mt. Kisco, NY 13. Jenna Schnuer, NYC, NY 14. Julia Kohn, NY, NY 15. Maria Sarro, NY, NY 16. Evan Schwartz, Cliffside Park, NJ 17. Pat Waters, Lakewood, CO 19. Karen Tilton, Maquoketa, IA 20. Kent Crawford 21. Terry Dillon 22. Gene Bechen, Coralville, IA 23. Neal Schnoor, Kearney, NE 24. Sam Zitek, Crete, NE 25. Jay Kloecker 26. Marilyn Godby, Papillion, NE 27. Lucina Johnson 28. Alfred Tom Johnson 29. Tyler Corey Johnson 30. A. Corey Limbach 31. Paula Smith, Berkeley, CA 32. Pat Quinn, Alameda, CA 33. Andrea Quinn, Alameda, CA 34. Jerry Hackett, Berkeley, CA 35. Richard Hackett, NY 36. Jeffrey Green, CA 37. Phil Chernin, CA 38. Sandra S. Bauer, CA 39. Gregory LeVasseur, San Francisco, CA 40. 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Milena Garcia, Columbia, MD 70. Timothy Morrison, Devore, CA 71. Virginia S. Kallay Cleveland, OH 72. Nancy Cleaveland, Atlanta, GA 73. Cindy Lutenbacher, Decatur, GA 74. Kaye Norton, Columbus, OH 75. Elaine Haidt, Chapel Hill, NC 76. Harold Haidt, Chapel Hill, NC 76. Frank Church, Chapel Hill, NC 77. Astrid R. Jarzembowski, Garrison, NY 78. David Church, Garrison, NY 79. Cathy Dillon, Old Greenwich, CT 80. Michelle Woodward, Town of Mt. Pleasant, NY 81. Catherine L. Josset, Brewster, NY 82. Bill Philbrick, Crompond, NY 83. Emile Menasch=BB, Mahopac, NY 84. Amy Menasch=BB, Mahopac, NY 85. Bette-Jane Crigger, Peekskill, NY 86. Miriam Piven Cotler 87. Cyndi Menegaz, Los Angeles, CA 88. Linda Zale, Los Angeles, CA 89. Phillip Kudelka, Woodland Hills California 90. Karl Schoenbaum, Woodland Hills California 91. Jennifer Bramscher, Malibu, CA 92. Mindy Markman, Los Angeles, CA 93. Bekki Misiorowski, Los Angeles, CA 94. Robert A. Misiorowski, Los Angeles, CA 95. Elise B. Misiorowski, Los Angeles, CA 96. Andrea McShane, Los Angeles, CA 97. Judith Shechter 98. Gerald Shechter, Kansas City, Missouri 99. Joyce Williams, Kansas City, MO 100. Brad Harris, Kansas City, MO 101. Ken Krusi, Silverdale, WA. 102. Rus Shuler, Fort Mill, SC 103. Stacy Hammond, Fort Mill, SC 104. Sandy Whitaker, Charlotte, NC 105. Neely Dodge, NY, NY 106. E Schlosberg Boston, MA 107. K. Caswell, Ivoryton, CT 108. Jerome Russo, Pennington, NJ 109. Sarah Caguiat Borthwick, Brooklyn, NY 110. Carlos J. Caguiat,Saranac Lake, NY 111. Rick Dennis, Saranac Lake,NY 112. Claire M. Stahler, Lake Placid, NY 113. Carolyn Curwen, Lowell, MA 114. Alison E. Curwen, Ojai, CA 115. William A. Curwen, Ojai, CA 116. Rick Swan, Ojai, CA 117. Sonia Nordenson, Ojai, CA 118. Rebecca Plum, Ojai, CA 119. Mike Wilkerson Santa Barbara, CA. 120. Jose Zamora, Berkeley, CA 121. Amber Smock, Berkeley, CA 122. Kimberly Cunningham, Berkeley, CA. 123. Margot Hanson, Berkeley, CA 124. Sarah Church, Berkeley, CA 125. David Caeser, Berkeley, ca 126. Catherine Trimbur, Berkeley, CA 127. Lori Durbin, Oakland, Ca. 128. Bebo White, San Francisco, CA 129. Bruce Erickson, San Carlos, CA 130. Don Erickson, Chicago, IL 131. D. McCannon, Evanston IL 132. G. Militello, Chicago, IL 133. D. Wilson, New York, New York 134. Kathy Murphy, Champaign, IL 135. Cara L. Day, Champaign, IL 136. Ualtar G. O'Regan, San Francisco, CA 137. John C. Lester, Berkeley, CA 138. Sara Hensley, San Jose, CA 139. Paul Olguin, Pacifica, CA 140. Jill Gluck,, Los Angeles, CA 141. Millicent Alexander, Los Angeles, CA 142. Jayme Adelson-Goldstein, Northridge, CA 143. Charmaine Budaska, Burbank, CA 144. Robert Budaska, Burbank, CA 145. Mike Snyder, Reseda, CA 146. Michele Montgomery, Los Angeles, CA 147. Kitty Glass, Northridge, CA 148. Delight Nasatir, Los Angeles, CA >> 149. Carole Beswick, Redlands, CA 150. Jo Dierdorff, Redlands, CA 151. Julia Stalder, Norman, OK 152. Allan Kinzie, Norman, OK 153 Toni Pimble, Eugene, OR 154. Phillp J. Broadbent, Spokane, WA 155. Ryan L. Weldon, Spokane, WA 156. Giselle Doepker, Pittsburgh, PA 157. Brittany Fridenstine, Memphis, TN 158. Rex Tranter, Seattle, WA 159. Pegi Nelson, El Cajon, CA 160. Debbie Boles, Encinitas, CA 161. Cathy Doggett, San Diego, CA 162. Arden Kaywin, New York, NY 163. Scott J. Mello, Oberlin, OH 164. Joseph H. Mello, Newton, NJ 165. Deborah A. Mello, Newton, NJ 166. Joan Policastro, Whitehouse Station, NJ 167. Steven Policastro, Whitehouse Station, NJ 168. Anna Ringle, Whitehouse Station, NJ 169. Victoria P. Vega, Metairie, LA 170. Rick Howard Vega, Metairie, LA 171. Walt Baron, Slidell, LA 172. Jacqui Baron, Slidell, LA 173. Carolyn Burns, Covington, LA 174. Bert Green, Mandeville, LA 175. Susan Green, Mandeville, LA 176. Holly Green, Mandeville, LA 177. Kaye Green, Cookeville, TN 178. Kelly Piepmeier, Cookeville, TN 179. Margaret Reab ; 180. Holly Reab 181. Matt Reab 182. Tracey Reab 183. Luke Reab 184 Rob Reab 185. Joe A Dorsey 186. Beverly Dorsey 187. Denyse J. Gafford 188. Melissa A. Petty 189. Patrick L. Rakes, Knoxville, TN 190. Byron J Freeman, Royston, GA 191. Lee M. Hartle 192. April Swisher, Atlanta, GA 193. I-Ching Lao, Seattle, WA 194. Lisa Bosner, Sarasota, FL 195. Eric McGill, Sarasota, FL 196. Zoe Roman, Sarasota FL 197. Carol King, Sarasota FL 198. Heather Dunhill, Sarasota FL 199. Marci Peters-Keirn, Snowmass Village Co 200. Maryanne Ellison Simmons, Wildwood, MO 201. Kathleen Maher, Springfield, IL 202. Jean Fong, Alameda, CA 203. Karen Perkins, Oakland, CA 204. Kathy Sloane, Oakland, CA 205. Lewis Watts, San Anselmo, CA 206. Janet Delaney, Berkeley, CA 207. Anne McAndrew, Seabrook, Texas 208. Murray McAndrew, Seabrook, Texas 209.Roger Rolke, Houston,Texas 210.Judy Rolke, Houston, Texas 211. Burt Rothenberger, Kennett Square, PA 212. Gail Rothenberger, Kennett Square, PA 213. Barb Schaal, Gadsden, AL 214. Nancy Klabunde, West Chester, PA 215. Ulrich Klabunde, West Chester, PA 216. Frank M. Hudson, Annapolis MD 217. Mark R. Peterson, Fairfax Staion, VA 218. Galen Lemmon, San Jose, CA 219. Tony Clements, Campbell, CA From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:45:14 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Re: Salaries Message-ID: <001401bf728e$cda924c0$e6e2490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, I agree with you completely. I know that I am not even close to a professional level of playing. What I'm saying is that these party throwers should call someone with real proffesional level ability instead of me. It is wrong to call a high school student to play for you simply because you are too cheap to pay a REAL player. These functions are things that ask for a brass quintet or something like that. It's not a full orchestra setting. I'm playing with other low paid high school students rather than professionals. Hell, if I was getting the opportunity to play with professionals, I would go for free (I would pay them for that opportunity). That is not the case in the situation I'm describing. My playing ability is NOT worth top dollar, and that is why I charge that amount sometimes. There are people, like you say, who have played their instrument longer than I've been alive, and I shouldn't be stealing the gigs that they deserve and have worked hard for. So when someone calls me to play for $30-$35, I say that I charge $75-$100. Then they just figure for that price, they would be better off calling a professional, which is what I want them to do. I would like to make some money, but not at the expense of someone else who deserves it. I don't mind playing if they just couldn't find anyone else, but I don't want to play because they are looking for the cheapest way to get some music inside their house. The people in these symphony leagues in this area are extremely rich, and they have more than what it takes to pay a professional player, but they choose to penny-pinch. That's just not right. -----Original Message----- From: Larry White To: Adolphus Sprott Cc: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 12:02 AM Subject: Re: Salaries >You say you are a high school student and you get asked to play for thirty five >bucks for an hours worth of playing. You also say you want to make top dollar. >My question is if you make top dollar where do you go from there? That is when >you have experience and are worth top dollar. Have you ever heard of >apprenticing? This is in fact, IMHO what you are getting the privilege of doing. >I only hope that you are also getting something out of attending rehersals and >not just expecting to receive some financial remuneration. >Don't forget, unless I have missed something, you have many years ahead of you >and you are at the very bottom of the learning 'scale'. We all hope to learn >something new each day, and I would hope that you will as well, for many years >to come. But don't, please don't insult those who have more years behind an >instrument than you have in total years and expect to be paid the same as them >(top dollar). >Please note I am not being critical, I just think that one should walk before >they run, learn how to swim before taking a big dive off the 30 metre board. >Just MHO. >Larry White > > > >Adolphus Sprott wrote: > >> I agree. I am a high school student, and I have been called on a couple of >> occasions to play at Houston Symphony League parties and the like. They >> call players like me because we are good enough to make some good music and >> we are extremely cheap labor. I try my best to make them pay top dollar >> though. It's not right for people to try and go to the bottom of the >> barrel. This is not meant to be offensive, because I am a black guy and >> I've heard my share of racial slurs, but it just seems like high school and >> college kids are the mexicans of the work force. Once again, not intended >> to be offensive, just the only way I could think to phrase it. So whenever >> someone calls me and offers to pay $35 for an hours worth of playing, I >> nicely tell them to shuv it. I really would be glad to play for free, but I >> just hate that people come to me simply because they don't want to pay a >> professional musician a professional wage. >> >> Weston Sprott >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom C. Shaddox >> To: Trombones and related issues forum. >> Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 4:18 PM >> Subject: Re: Salaries >> >> >I think amateur players, who give their performance away free, have some >> >responsibility to professional musicians to make sure the audience can >> >hear the difference. >> > >> >I, for one, take this responsibility seriously, and am proud to say I've >> >never been accused of "breaking the rice bowl" of any professional >> >trombonist. >> > >> >I think I'll skip practice today, >> >Tom "happy to come play at your symphony's fund raiser, if it would >> >help" Shaddox >> >Principle trombone, Punxsutawney Phil >> >Richardson PVC Trombones performing artist >> > >> > > > From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:54:28 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Re: pay scales, etc Message-ID: <003301bf7290$3e430560$e6e2490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, You may have gotten paid what you're worth, but I think some of the symphony musicians feel that they are undercompensated for what they do. Also, I no idea what living prices are like in Pittsburgh, but I know that in Colorado, $35000 is not going to take you very far. That's probably just enough to break even, and if you have a family, you're probably barely getting by. I understand that people shouldn't complain too much, and that to an extent you choose your own financial destiny, but the price that is paid to be a symphony musician should at least be rewarded with reasonable living wages. -----Original Message----- From: David Molter To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:47 AM Subject: RE: pay scales, etc >The discussion on pay scales has been interesting. Much has been said about >the lack of monetary rewards available to those who choose music as a >career, and I'll agree for the most part that musicians are underpaid. But I >also have to apply some of the same logic that I apply to athletes: if you >are being paid to do what you love, consider yourself fortunate and keep the >grousing to a minimum. It galls me no end to see a football player who >received a $3 million signing bonus say that he did it for the benefit of >all other football players, "so that they won't have to take less than they >deserve." And it miffs me somewhat to hears people complain about making >$42K a year to do what they love. > >In my misspent youth, I made an uncertain living as a rock musician for >nearly 20 years. Never made more than $25K a year. Never complained about >the money or about other guys making more than our bands. I figured we >earned what we were worth. I no longer play professionally, and it has taken >me roughly 12 years to get into a position in my current career that pays me >$42K annually -- close to what some symphony players make. It is far more >than I ever made as a musician, and far more than I probably ever could make >given my talent level. > >Salary structures in music will never be the same as those in professional >sports, but as someone else pointed out, it's a matter of priorities among >the public. They'd a rather pay $65 to see a lousy football team than $12 to >see a great symphony. >I don't want to ramble, but it seems to me that the arts have always been >undersupported by the public. I live in Pittsburgh and the Pittsburgh >Symphony has trouble filling its 2500 seat hall. Same for our ballet, and >arts events here seem to have a very limited shelf life. Yet the Steelers >(football) sell out, even though they stink, and monster truck battles will >fill an arena while a pops concert on the same night plays to 65% audience >capacity. > >Those who choose music as a career should be aware of the sacrifices >involved, and although I don't begrudge them the occasional moan, it's a >fact of life that the people who run the show usually make more than the >artists. Although I'm not in my current job entirely by choice, it is where >my accumulated choices have led me, I'm lucky to be making what I make, and >it makes sense for my family. Someday I hope to be in a financial position >that will allow me to back off from my "real" job and get back to playing. I >Play now for free in three amateur ensembles. It keeps me sane. But if >someone offers me $25 to play a gig, I'm not gonna turn it down because it >could be going to some other musician's pocket. > >Although professional musicians often can't control WHERE they are, they are >WHAT they are by choice. Living with choices is part of life. > >Dave Molter >Pitsburgh, PA > > > From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:54:40 +0930 From: "Nicholas Peter Hayes" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Playing in the new arrival Message-ID: <001a01bf7296$5b5ac740$8a308ec6@moebius> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, just had to tell you guys - a new daughter for us, born 4.30 pm Tuesday, at the Royal Darwin Hospital. Mother fine, baby healthy with strong diaphragm and passable embrouchure given early age. Will start on a 12C mouthpiece, I guess! The trombone content for this post? As we arrived at the hospital, a band was setting up. The USS Blue Ridge is in town, and their first class 17 piece big band serenaded us in to the hospital doors with a swing arrangement of "Anchors Aweigh" and "Mambo number 5!" True to the easy fraternity of the trombone world, the bone section guys were instant friends. Every time I came down to the kiosk for a sandwich or a chocolate bar, these guys would call out "Hey, how she going, had the baby yet!" Don't get that with string players! Anyone got a good student model sopranino trombone for sale? ;) Nick Hayes Darwin Symphony Orchestra (& first time dad). From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:46:11 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Copyright issue Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, I was just wondering what restrictions apply to transcribing unpublished (but legally recorded) material that's not public domain for personal study (NOT to perform, record, sell, distribute, post in a public forum--just to learn more about the performance and/or a composition for which music is unavailable). If anyone knows anything about this, please share. Thanks, Beth Lewis From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:35:50 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Salaries Message-ID: <20000209023550.95301.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Things are finally beginning to make sense to me. Salaries...you need to be doing something different, in order to get the big bucks. Kenny G. plays sideways and has a blond "Afro", for example. Wet lips...you want to be wetting your top lip, to get flexibility but you want your bottom lip to be cry, to get a good anchor. OK, then...learn to play trombone while standing on your head. Saliva will run down, keeping your ãtopä lip wet and it certainly is different. No, I have not tried it. First, Iâm in my office and my trombone is at home. Second, I absolutely hate to be upside down. Thatâs why Iâm offering this fabulous idea to yâall...free, even. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:00:29 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: TonyC789@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Cc: dja1@axe.humboldt.edu, ARBales@sjcb.org, MAESTRABDT@aol.com, PamyB@aol.com, CBohmler@aol.com, Rvctbone@aol.com, philip.chevallard@peterson.af.mil Subject: Re: No Subject Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000208200029.00882370@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 06:29 PM 2/8/00 EST, TonyC789@aol.com wrote: >This message is long but important. > >On NPR's Morning Edition, Nina Totenberg reported that if the Supreme >Court supports Congress to cut the budget of the National Endowment of >the Arts, it is in effect the end of NEA. Let me repeat what I said on January 30 -- GREAT! I think we just might be better off without the NEA. >In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and >streamline their services, some government officials believe that the >funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion of >funding for something which is seen as not worthwhile. Currently, >taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per year, >and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year. If you don't think that's very much, how about sending me the same amount? >A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans wish to keep >funding for PBS, January 1995? 1995??? Nobody asked me, and the data is stale. >The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support for PBS >and funding for these types of programs is by our making our voices heard. Please >add your name to this list and forward it to friends who believe in favor of what >this stands for. First, email petition don't work because they're so easily faked, and second, I wouldn't think this particular bill would be around for five years. I really think this email is a lot like the "Pen Pals" virus messages -- they just keep going and going. Same as the "modem tax" stuff. Off topic? I think so... Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:29:25 -0600 From: j.grisham@pmail.net (Josh Grisham) To: TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Postponing while at TMEA Message-ID: <200002090329.VAA19152@po.missouri.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Howdy listurs! Tomorrow morning I'm flying out to go to San Antonio, and I am going to postpone all Tbn-L posts to my email so that I don't have too much whenever I come back. I know this is a big conference, so I hope to see some of you all there! It's going to be a LOT of fun! Wewp, adios! --Josh Grisham <>< j.grisham@pmail.net From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:47:25 PST From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Lewis Van Haney competition Message-ID: <20000209034725.88362.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Everyone: As I think I might have mentioned a few months back, I sent in a tape for the Lewis Van Haney mock orchestral bass trombone audition competition this school year. The results came back, and I got the expected result: near the bottom of the list in ranking. Only 13 people sent in tapes, and I was #10. I guess it's a start, and in two years maybe I'll get better. I have a total of four shots at the competition before I get too old to participate; if I do the tenor audition next year, then that'll be eight shots. Anyhow, does anyone know who the finalists were? If anyone else on the list took part, I would like to congratulate you for probably ranking above me, all in the spirit of friendly competition. :) -Aaron Roth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:19:02 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: postpone Message-ID: <001f01bf72b4$cdd60be0$b5f6490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do I have my messages from the list postponed? I too will be going to TMEA, but I lost the web address to postpone messages. I need a very quick response if possible. Weston Sprott From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:51:29 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Tuneup Intonation Training System Message-ID: <001d01bf72c1$b6ce6f20$155ffc9e@volpaulbear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF7297.CCEBD920"
Folks:
    I need some help. I'd like to know if Stephen Colley is still marketing this system and if he is, is there a website that I can visit? I have a business card with a 1-800 number that is for some other totally un-related company. I think it is an excellent system and I've mentioned it on the intanation page of my website, and I'd like very much to be able to point others to this website if it exists.
 
Thank you,
 
Paul Kemp
Chattanooga Symphony
 
 From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:57:18 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Looking for a bass trombone Message-ID: <002b01bf72c2$86db3cc0$155ffc9e@volpaulbear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF7298.9D44F200"
Folks,
    One of our local players here in Chattanooga is looking for a used double valve Bach or Edwards. If anyone out there has one for sale, you can contact Steve Minton at ollanketo@juno.com or call him at (423) 499-9032. If you wish, you may e-mail me privately and I'll put Steve in touch with you.
 
Thank You,
 
Paul Kemp
Chattanooga Symphony
 
 From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 01:05:28 -0500 From: Laura To: Subject: UT Honors Band Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000209010528.008b29f0@pop.ratedg.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a question about University of Tenn. Honors Band. How big of an event is this for the jr/sr high kids? How competitive is it? Basically, what does it mean as far as ability depending on the seating? A little bigger pond? HOpe any of this makes sense or someone can figure out what exactly I wanted to ask....it is late and I have a headache and insomnia PLUS a rupture eardrum so I can't even play. Sigh. Thanks, Laura The object of education is to prepare the young to educate themselves throughout their lives. -Robert Maynard Hutchins From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:00:21 +0100 (MET) From: Hanspeter Schmid To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Armstrong (was: Wet lip versus dry lip) Message-ID: <200002090700.IAA00827@isibee21.ethz.ch> > Louis Armstrong also blew out his Obicularis Oris (sp?). (The > ring of muscle which surrounds the opening in your mouth.) He > required an operation to get it stitched up. This injury might > have be related to playing with dry chops. (I don't know, just > speculation on my part.) > > Here is the interesting tidbit: > > Armstrong's mouthpiece had notches cut into it to help his chops > get a better grip. A photograph of this infamous mouthpiece > reminded me of And it gets even worse. Read the following excerpt from http://encarta.msn.com/events/black_history_month/africana/arts_aa02.asp --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Defining Qualities of Armstrong's Trumpet Playing Armstrong projected a clear tone, whatever his register, and whether he was playing high notes or low. His articulation was clean, and when he held out notes, he concluded by adding a slow vibrato, a slight quaver or alteration of the pitch, that was soon much imitated. It was different from the fast vibrato favored by most of his New Orleans contemporaries, including Bechet. Armstrong's melodic ideas were distinctive, classically balanced, and memorable, so much so that his style of improvising inspired countless imitators, including virtually every trumpet player to emerge during the 1920s and 1930s. He also had what was, for the time, an astonishing range. Like many other self-taught brass players, Armstrong reached high notes by pulling the cornet or trumpet forcefully against his mouth to raise the pitch of his vibrating lips, rather than using the muscles of his mouth and cheeks to change the pitch. Photographs reveal that by the early 1930s Armstrong had already permanently scarred his lips. Over the years, his reckless and competitive nature - sometimes he played 50 or 100 high Cs in succession, topped by a high F - took an inevitable toll on his trumpet playing. His biographer James Lincoln Collier described the results of an April 26, 1933, recording session: On the last tune of the day, "Don't Play Me Cheap," toward the end of his final chorus we are brought almost to tears as he writhes up to the climactic high note that he felt he had to give his audience. He was by this point jamming the sharp circle of steel of the mouthpiece deep into the flesh of his lips to give them enough support to reach the high notes. Victor Records and Johnny Collins, then respectively Armstrong's record company and manager, held him to a grueling pace, and Armstrong - always eager to please - did not refuse them. During this period, however, Armstrong began to change his style by simplifying it. He continued to strive for high notes, but he began playing more slowly, using fewer notes per measure and leaving more open space. He improvised melodies that were more flowing, and he played longer phrases. Collier concluded that these changes were not simply an evolution in Armstrong's style; they were a way of sparing his lips. Lessening the wear and tear on his embouchure may also help explain his growing reliance upon vocals. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cheerio, Hanspeter -- Hanspeter Schmid Psychoanalysis is the illness for which Analog IC Designer (Research) it thinks it is the therapy. (Karl Kraus) Signal Processing Laboratory, ETHZ [Die Psychoanalyse ist die Krankheit] http://www.isi.ee.ethz.ch/~schmid/ [fuer deren Therapie sie sich haelt.] From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:32:28 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Philosophy - Long - Delete if you are not interested. Message-ID: <00d701bf72d1$7e1e27a0$f84c063e@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: DOWDY, KENNETH S To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 3:02 PM Subject: RE: Philosophy - Long - Delete if you are not interested. > Some Ukrainian powerplant workers came to visit our plant on an > exchange program a few years back. They marveled at the fact that we were > tearing down perfectly serviceable buildings (at least by their standards) > to build newer ones, Yup, they just wait for their power plants to tear themselves down :-) Hey, come to think of it, they tried that in Pennsylvania too. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk http://www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:30:38 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Copyright issue Message-ID: <00d601bf72d1$7bba4700$f84c063e@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth Lewis To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 1:46 AM Subject: Copyright issue > I was just wondering what restrictions apply to transcribing unpublished > (but legally recorded) material that's not public domain for personal > study (NOT to perform, record, sell, distribute, post in a public > forum--just to learn more about the performance and/or a composition for > which music is unavailable). If anyone knows anything about this, please It would seem to me that there is absolutely no harm caused to anyone in doing this. You are not gaining financially from it, and you are not depriving the copyright owner of a royalty, unless he/she is prepared to do the transcription for you, which I doubt. If you played (for personal study) what was on the record from memory, would that be a violation of copyright law? What difference if you write it down before you play it? I leaned much of my arranging skills from transcribing other peoples works from record, and I encourage my students to do the same. It is good ear training. Every time you record your favourite TV or radio program so that you can view/hear it at a different time, you are technically breaking the law. But it is extremely unlikely that you would be arrested for it. If this were not true, video and audio recording equipment would not be openly sold in the market place. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk http://www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Wed Feb 09 08:49:49 2000 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 02:18:05 -0500 From: Charles To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: professional - amateur Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000209071805.006fcbe0@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think we are making a mistake when we equate professional with being a 'good player" and amateur with being "not as good".