TROMBONE-L Digest 1589 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 2) RE: New Valve (was trigger(s) for middle and upper register) by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 3) RE: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 4) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by "Thomas Smee" 5) Article on Bob Brookmeyer by Douglas Yeo 6) Wanted to buy: Medium bore w/ trigger by cmcareers 7) Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists by "Eric" 8) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by James Scott 9) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 10) Re: Shires Trombones by "Daniel Pliskin" 11) Re: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists by "Daniel Pliskin" 12) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 13) Another Shires Story by Scott Moore 14) Davis & Reichenbach by "Ellard" 15) Re: Another Shires Story by Servo149@aol.com 16) Celebration by "Adrian Drover" 17) Daily Routines by Beth Lewis 18) daily routines by "Adolphus Sprott" 19) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 20) Re: Daily Routines by hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) 21) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 22) Re: Celebration by Earl Needham 23) Re: Daily Routines by "Ellard" 24) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by "Kenneth Dowdy" 25) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by Beth Lewis 26) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by Larry White 27) Re: Daily Routines by "Burk, Malinda G." 28) focused practice by "Adolphus Sprott" 29) Re: focused practice by Beth Lewis 30) Re: Daily Routines by hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) 31) test by hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) 32) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by Joseph Green 33) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by "Daniel P. Sniderman" 34) Re: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists by "Adrian Drover" From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:01:37 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: MBennetts@aol.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082F17@LEE2> My recollection (my Remington is not in front of me) is that he says, speak in a conversational tone (after of course taking a conversational breath), "How are you today?" Your tongue should hit the roof of your mouth on the t and the d of today. Play in the same place and with the same force and you should be alright. It does seem to work for me, although to be honest my best tonguing is done when I am seated next to a monster player and I am trying to match the sound of the articulation coming out of his/her bell and not thinking so much about what my tongue is doing. How do you learn this? One slow note at a time. I mean, one perfectly tongued slow note. And speed up only when perfect. However, the wide variation in tongue position and stroke that will still work makes me think it probably isn't the most important factor. That trumpet book you all love to condemn (36 Weeks to a Triple High C) recommends, believe it or not, anchoring the tip of your tongue behind your BOTTOM teeth, and tonguing with the middle of your tongue on the top of your mouth. Guess what, it works. At least, it works if you keep your corners firm, air stream steady, tongue relaxed, and motion vertical (not in and out). Then what about doodle tongueing? Your tongue is stuck to the top of your mouth and lets air go down and around - but I think it is the same principle. I think the basics plus a good concept of what articulation should sound like (which I think is most of the concept of "sound", or at any rate indistinguishable from concept of sound) is most of the battle. yours, tim richardson > -----Original Message----- > From: MBennetts@aol.com [SMTP:MBennetts@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 3:29 PM > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is > > My Remington Warmups finally arrived in the mail. After reading a few > pages > I realize already I'm in trouble with one of Mr. Remington's 4 major > elements > of trombone playing: tonguing technique. > > He says the tongue should make contact "behind" the top teeth. Without > giving you all cause for hysterical laughter, suffice it to say that I > haven't been doing it that way. To properly get to work on corrective > measures, I'd like to hear your definition of "behind". Does Mr. > Remington > (and you and your teachers) mean that the tongue contacts the gum without > touching the front teeth, or that is some contact with the teeth is > acceptable? > > Mike Bennett > --------------- > "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this > > instrument can make God's voice heard". > 16th Century > Bishop of Vasteras, Sweden From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:43:12 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: New Valve (was trigger(s) for middle and upper register) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Why not? Seems to work for some people. Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: Matmutt@aol.com [SMTP:Matmutt@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:48 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: New Valve (was trigger(s) for middle and upper register) > > In a message dated 2/3/00 4:47:57 AM EST, chardy@totcon.com writes: > > << What are your feelings and opinions for using the trigger(s) (in moving > > passages) > for notes in middle and upper registers? > >> > Dude, you read my MIND! I've been working on a bell section with an > additional gooseneck right behind the slide receiver curving up to the > bell. > A trigger activates two valves simultaneously ( at either end) opening the > > "shortcut" gooseneck and cutting off the normal flow through the tuning > slide. This shortens the tube length by almost 32% ! The resultant tone > produced is a fifth higher than would be produced by the same embouchure > tension through the full tube length. Your Willson Bass becomes an instant > > alto horn! And consider the jazz implications. > You'll be screaming out those high F's with this modification, > Charlie. > That's IF you're practicing. Heh Heh Heh . Of course this hand crafted > modification is available only through me and the wait is at least four to > > six weeks ( really a year or two but I regularly lie about it). Please > send > $2,500 as a non refundable deposit and then sweat while you try to contact > me > to no avail. The final cost? Come on Charlie, you shouldn't ask such > questions of a CRAFTSMAN! > Larry Priori ( the passionate amateur) From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:46:16 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , "'MBennetts@aol.com'" Subject: RE: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > But > how did David know to eavesdrop, and how did he remember for forty years > while waiting for me to s*bscribe to this list? > That's a trade secret! ;-) Well, this is an amazing list, and I'm an amazing person! ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:00:16 -0500 From: "Thomas Smee" To: Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think someone mentioned $120,000 as a likely salary for a music director for an orchestra like the Colorado orchestra. That seems very low. I wouldn't be surprised if the number was between $500,000 and a million a year or perhaps more. Wasteful. Also, marketing expenses were mentioned but would probably eat up a bigger part of the budget than we'd probably expect (design of brochures, photography and artwork, printing, mailing, all those newspaper ads are very expensive). Rightly or wrongly, the soloists and guest conductors also are probably very expensive as well. >>> 02/03/00 03:23pm >>> In a message dated 02/03/00 12:47:43 PM Central Standard Time, sabutin@mindspring.com writes: > This leaves THREE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS unaccounted > for. I've found another $2.1 million or so, and don't know enough about the real estate to know how much to add for that. The $2.1 million consists of what might be called "payroll related" items - payroll taxes, medical and other employee insurance, and pension or retirement contribution. The payroll number you calculated totals $4.2 million: $3,280,000 for musicians, $800,000 for staff, and $120,000 for a director. Payroll taxes would add about 10% to that number, or $420,000. (Employer's share of Social Security tax is 7.65%, just like the employee's share. Add to that another 2 to 2-1/2% for state and federal unemployment taxes, and you're at 10%. Family medical coverage costs $6 to $8,000 per year per employee nowadays. For 100 employees, call it $700,000. Finally, I assume that musicians at this level are being taken care of reasonably well for pension or other retirement contributions. This could easily cost an additional $10,000 annually per employee, or $1 million. As to a building "paying for itself", that might or might not be true - I don't know about the day-to-day economics of office, rehearsal and performance space for a symphony orchestra. But I do know that, if it "pays for itself" it's by means of some portion of the $9 million of revenues being used to pay for the building costs. In other words, it's another call on the $9 million. Hope that's of some value. Mike Bennett --------------- "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this instrument can make God's voice heard". 16th Century Bishop of VŠsterŒs, Sweden From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:12:56 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Article on Bob Brookmeyer Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Today's Boston Globe ran a very nice article on jazz trombonist Bob Brookmeyer. See it online today (only) at: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/035/living/A_Brookmeyer_boomP.shtml or read it below. -Doug Yeo ============== A Brookmeyer boom At 70, venerable jazz valve trombonist enjoys a resurgence By Bob Blumenthal, Boston Globe Correspondent, 2/4/2000 Life is hardly beginning at age 70 for Bob Brookmeyer. He has accomplished too much in the past half-century as jazz's greatest valve trombonist, and as an accomplished and highly influential composer and arranger. Yet there is clearly a Brookmeyer resurgence afoot. His CD ''New Work'' (Challenge), with the New Art Orchestra that he founded in Germany, has already won awards in Europe. A new ''electric trombone band'' with Hal Crook and Mick Goodrick will debut at Jordan Hall on Wednesday. In a more familiar acoustic setting, Brookmeyer has also joined vocalist Carol Sloane for a Scullers engagement that ends tonight. Brookmeyer commutes from his New Hampshire home to teach at the New England Conservatory, and admits that his reemergence has been taking shape over the past dozen years. ''I got married in 1988, began teaching at the BMI Composers' Workshop and then NEC, and started rethinking where I was as a composer,'' he explained in a recent conversation. ''I'm in a happy frame of mind, for once.'' This positivism is already reflected in ''New Works,'' which blends the wit and clarity of his '50s work with Gerry Mulligan and Jimmy Giuffre and the more complex ambitions of his writing for the Mulligan Concert Jazz Band and the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Orchestra in the following decades. ''American jazz composers would be lost without European radio, and we get used to the mentality of the radio orchestra players who have lifetime contracts,'' he said in explaining why he formed the New Art Orchestra. ''So when I was asked to create a jazz band in 1994 for the Schleswig -Holstein festival in Germany, I decided to assemble a band that would play in the historically right way - which means to swing honestly. Sometimes that means the musical equivalent of faking orgasms until you really feel it. ''But the New Art Orchestra has done surprisingly well. I wrote the piece `Celebration' for Gerry Mulligan as guest soloist for our first concert. We recorded it on the CD, and Scott Robinson did a fantastic job with the baritone part. We've also worked with Clark Terry and Michael Brecker. Even when the festival didn't invite us back, guys in the band organized concerts, because they didn't want to let a year go by without playing.'' While the New Art Orchestra reconvenes annually in Europe, Brookmeyer's new quintet is poised to become a domestic presence. ''[Guitarist] Mick Goodrick, [trombonist] Hal Crook, and I are ready to begin,'' he explained. ''We're recording with John Patitucci and Bill Stewart on bass and drums, and will have John Lockwood and Taki Toriyama at Jordan Hall. ''This is a logical next step for me. It started when Mick and I played duets at NEC in December '98, and the empathy was almost eerie. Then one of my students told me about Hal Crook, and his CD with Mick and Paul Motian [''Hero Worship,'' on the Italian RAM label] was fantastic. I told Hal that I had been interested in becoming electric for 20 years, and he hooked me up with his microphone and digitech guy. He even gave me a spare JAMMAN component, which you can't get anymore, for my birthday.'' Switching on will not, however, supplant Brookmeyer's acoustic work, which has made him one of the most recognizable soloists in jazz. ''I started as a clarinet player,'' he said of his musical odyssey, ''then my teeth changed at age 13 and I had to change. I saved all that summer for a drum set, but when I got to school they made me the sixth trombone player in the orchestra. My father found an old German teacher who would spit in my face, teaching me how to tongue, but he was also a writer, and seeing him fill blank music paper with notes really turned me on. ''A year later I was a commercial arranger, and in 1948 I got a valve trombone, which finally made sense to me. I had loved slide players like Bill Harris, but Charlie Parker and the new music had made so much of that approach sound passe.'' Brookmeyer also worked as a pianist with a variety of big bands before gaining attention for his horn work with Stan Getz in 1953. Subsequent stints with Mulligan and Giuffre made the Kansas City native a leading light of ''West Coast'' jazz (''One of the most erroneous pigeonholes ever devised,'' he noted) and allowed him to explore the complete jazz spectrum. ''I was very interested in people like Jelly Roll Morton at the time,'' he said, ''and relating jazz's past to its present and future was an honest thing. And at the same time I was recording albums like `Traditionalism Revisited,' I was doing free improvisations with Giuffre and Jim Hall every night.'' Brookmeyer the writer began to emerge in 1959. ''I left Giuffre to become a regular person and a studio musician, which is a great accomplishment for a valve trombonist. It was Gerry's organizing of the Concert Jazz Band that really got me involved in writing, though.'' The early '60s were productive, as Brookmeyer wrote for Mulligan and Jones/Lewis and led a quintet with Clark Terry. Then he left New York and virtually disappeared for a decade. ''Alcohol overcame me for several years,'' he acknowledged. ''Then I got back together with Mel's band, around the time Thad left in 1979, and became the musical director for several years. Even though I was also playing a lot of duos with Jim Hall, that's when I started considering myself more a writer than a player.'' Yet Brookmeyer remains masterful on an instrument he described as possessing ''all the flaws of a fluegelhorn, magnified about 20 times.'' His valve trombone should sound especially empathetic at Scullers, in the presence of old friend Sloane. ''I first heard about Carol in 1961, after she had sung an unaccompanied verse at Newport completely in tune,'' he recalled, ''and I was involved in her second album. Yet the last time we worked together, anywhere, was at the Jazz Workshop in '66. But we still know each other's work well, and she still has a beautiful instrument. ''Working with Carol is also a way to let people know that I live around here. I'm less than two hours from Boston, which is not quite at the end of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and I'm looking for a place where Hal, Mick, and I can play as well. It was time to let people know that I'm in town.'' This story ran on page D15 of the Boston Globe on 2/4/2000. © Copyright 2000 Globe Newspaper Company. ========== From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:13:10 -0800 (PST) From: cmcareers To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , yeo@yeodoug.com Subject: Wanted to buy: Medium bore w/ trigger Message-ID: <200002041613.IAA67624@mail.nm.freei.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Anyone got a medium bore trombone with trigger for sale? Interested particularly in Bach or Yamaha, but interested in any horn that plays well. Please reply to sender only, not list, so we don't clutter the already-cluttered list. Thank you. Carl Musholt Get 100% FREE Internet Access from Freei.Net. 100% FREE, 100% Anonymous, 100% Jam Packed with features. Check us out at http://www.freei.net. From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:21:37 +0800 From: "Eric" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy Chinese New Year to all Asian, Chinese trombonists!!! Best Regards, Eric Ang Email me at admin@eric-ang.bn3.com or eang18@pacific.net.sg PG: 92594459 ICQ: 18995426 Check me out at IRC #virtual_world [^gReenPea] *CONFIDENTIAL NOTE: The information contained in this email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above,and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error,please immediately notify the sender and delete the email. From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:44 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:46:02 -0700 (MST) From: James Scott To: Thomas Smee Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My friend Tom beat me to the punch on this one - $120,000 is a figure that seems to make sense for a position like Music Director of an orchestra like Colorado (approx. 3 times what a player makes), but the figure will be closer to $500,000 or more. Also, the Music Director will only be there for ten to fifteen weeks of a 46 week season, meaning expensive guest conductors must be hired for all of the other weeks of the orchestra's season. Major conductors and soloists often make more for a week's work, than the musicians in front of them make for the year. This also includes Pops artists - next month here in Calgary, we have Joel Grey for 1 rehearsal and 3 concerts on our pops series, and I'm told his fee is $70,000 (CDN). Also, administrators tend to make salaries that are at least 5 times what the musicians they are managing make. There is a lot of waste in the music business, but for my money (and believe me there's not too much of it!), that's where it really starts. Jim Scott Calgary Philharmonic On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Thomas Smee wrote: > > > I think someone mentioned $120,000 as a likely salary for a music director for an orchestra like the Colorado orchestra. That seems very low. I wouldn't be surprised if the number was between $500,000 and a million a year or perhaps more. Wasteful. Also, marketing expenses were mentioned but would probably eat up a bigger part of the budget than we'd probably expect (design of brochures, photography and artwork, printing, mailing, all those newspaper ads are very expensive). Rightly or wrongly, the soloists and guest conductors also are probably very expensive as well. > > >>> 02/03/00 03:23pm >>> > In a message dated 02/03/00 12:47:43 PM Central Standard Time, > sabutin@mindspring.com writes: > > > This leaves THREE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS unaccounted > > for. > > I've found another $2.1 million or so, and don't know enough about the real > estate to know how much to add for that. > > The $2.1 million consists of what might be called "payroll related" items - > payroll taxes, medical and other employee insurance, and pension or > retirement contribution. The payroll number you calculated totals $4.2 > million: $3,280,000 for musicians, $800,000 for staff, and $120,000 for a > director. Payroll taxes would add about 10% to that number, or $420,000. > (Employer's share of Social Security tax is 7.65%, just like the employee's > share. Add to that another 2 to 2-1/2% for state and federal unemployment > taxes, and you're at 10%. Family medical coverage costs $6 to $8,000 per > year per employee nowadays. For 100 employees, call it $700,000. Finally, I > assume that musicians at this level are being taken care of reasonably well > for pension or other retirement contributions. This could easily cost an > additional $10,000 annually per employee, or $1 million. > > As to a building "paying for itself", that might or might not be true - I > don't know about the day-to-day economics of office, rehearsal and > performance space for a symphony orchestra. But I do know that, if it "pays > for itself" it's by means of some portion of the $9 million of revenues being > used to pay for the building costs. In other words, it's another call on the > $9 million. > > Hope that's of some value. > > Mike Bennett > --------------- > "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this > instrument can make God's voice heard". > 16th Century > Bishop of Västerås, Sweden > > From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:17:42 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: chardy@totcon.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002041819.NAA28566@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:17 PM 2/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >>Return-Path: >>From: DLevine487@aol.com >>Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:32:31 EST >>Subject: good question (feel free to forward my response) >>To: chardy@totcon.com >> >> > Who's taking all this money ??? >> > >> > And why aren't we getting more of it ??? >> > >> > Later... >> > >> > S. >> >> >>That's a very heartfelt question and rant, and I don't disagree completely. >>WE all know musicians tend to be underpaid when compared to often illiterate >>athletes, for instance, ============ Well, I don't know about THAT...athletes, literate or illiterate, are paid because people will pay to see them do their stuff, and I have no quarrel w/that at all. I think the genius of a Michael Jordan or Muhammad Ali is no less than that of Charlie Parker or Stan Getz, and more power TO 'em if they can rake in the big money. More people UNDERSTAND what athletes do than what musicians do...I mean, after all, almost EVERYbody plays some sort of competitive sports SOME time in their life, and most people certainly get better at sports than they EVER do at music... (As far as that "illiterate athletes" smack...listen to the interviews Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain have given over the years...or Ted Williams or Jim Brown or Michael Jordan or Ali, the list is endless. Read what Sandy Koufax had to say about pitching, what Bruce Lee had to say about martial arts. These aren't illiterate, foolish men, they're as intelligent and as deep into their arts as ANY musician. Sure, many athletes are dumb as rocks. Musicians, too, when you get down to it. Just different STYLES of smart and dumb.) MY point is that, even though the audience is smaller for music (at least for "art" music) than it is for athletics, the musicians are being paid a much smaller percentage of the gross than athletes are. At one time, athletes were in much the same position, but due to the work of the various athletes' unions, many (admittedly greedy, sleazeball) sports agents, and a few courageous men like Curt Flood, athletes now get a much larger slice of the pie than they did 30 or 40 years ago. We, on the other hand,are just as ripped off as they were then...only now the ripper offers are Ivy Leaguers in nice suits and politicians instead of grubby mob connected promoters and nouveau riche team owners, so nobody says anything. A number of people wrote the list suggesting other ways that the $9 million budget of the Colorado Orchestra might be being used, and I have no objections to that. Neither have I the time to do research to find out just where that money is going...I'm too busy as a musician to do much else than play, practice, write, eat + sleep. Even if I WERE to do that research...do you all suppose that, short of going in there w/a government supported efficiency task force (Is that an oxymoron?)and tearing the joint apart, I'd REALLY find out what happens to all that money??? It leaks out in hundreds of ways, I can almost guarantee. ANY heavily funded "nonprofit" organization, unless managed w/ an IRON hand, will leak...because they don't HAVE to show a profit. What they really have to do, is use up all the money they have by the end of the fiscal year so that they can get MORE money. Example...until recently, The Smithsonian Museum Corporation (or whatever it's called...the whole huge Smithsonian shmear), which occupies a place that is, depending on their convenience, somewhere between an official Federal organization and an independent non-profit company, has sent all of its communications by Federal Express instead of the Post Office. In an organization that large, those costs mount up...hundreds of thousands, maybe millions. Multiply that kind of leakage by hundreds, and you're talkin' M-O-N-E-Y. Further, WHAT PART of the organization IS exactly the "non-profit" part? (I refer to the Colorado situation now...) Someone suggested that the music director might be paid upwards of $500,000 ???!!!???!!! Certainly HE'S not "non-profit"? The executive directors ???...Betcha THEY'RE not "non-profit"? The producers...stagehands...management on all levels above secretary...naaaahhh, THEY'RE not "non-profit". So who IS "non-profit"? The musicians, if they're making only 40 some thousand dollars in a 42 week year. If they have families, they're just breaking even. JUST breaking even. No profit. That's my point. ================================= however, Sam fails to acknowledge a couple of harsh >>realities. >>One: WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR. As it is, most orchestras are highly >>supported by funding from corporations, foundations, and individual >>philanthropists. Salaries and expenses could not be paid only by ticket and >>recording sales. This also partially explains why the "classics" are played >>over and over again. Most of the individual donors are older and not usually >>into hearing or funding works of new composers. ====================== OK...no matter WHERE the $9 million comes from, I'm asking...where does it go, and why are the musicians being paid the same salary as your average public school janitor? ==================== >>Two: The average individual has no idea of the real costs of running a >>corporation. The costs of health care, pension, workman's comp, etc. are not >>even mentioned by Sam, nor is the the true expense of the "hall" and all the >>taxes, maintenance Sam mentioned the Smithsonian Jazz Orchestra's "Staff of >>3". All those ticket-takers, ushers, electricians, stage managers, the guy >>who shovels the snow in front of the hall.... they ALL draw a salary... and >>benefits et al. It's not just the "administration" that gets paid. >>Dan and Charles =============== Yes, you're right there...and I'll BET you those "ticket-takers, ushers, electricians, stage managers", even the guy who shovels the snow in front of the hall, are making nearly as much as the musicians. How many hours of practice does it take to be an usher, a ticket taker, a snow shoveler? If the snow shoveler makes a mistake, if the usher shows someone to the wrong seat once in a while, are their jobs on the line? Let a musician make three small audible mistakes in a series, and watch what happens. THEN the pressure's ON. Isn't that kind of dedication and pressure worth a little more than a salary which I'm sure is earned (and probably surpassed) by every McDonalds manager in the world? I hate it when musicians become apologists for management...happens on Broadway, happens in orchestras, happens almost EVERYWHERE. As the bass player piles his instrument into the little space available in his 10 year old Nissan Sentra and prepares to drive away from the gig, and the "executive director" drives away in his nice new Lexus...and this is the case almost EVERYWHERE...shouldn't all of us stop and ask "What's wrong with this picture ???" I don't begrudge management their paycheck...but this system is skewed way to the left. Obscene profit and exploitation is the name of the game, from record companies right down to most club venues, and it's wrong. Later... S. >> > From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:38:07 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Shires Trombones Message-ID: <20000204193807.72484.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hopefully what youâve said isnât true. That is, he shouldnât be blending metals to make the brass. He shouldnât be making straight tubing. The list goes on. He must be using specifications to make the pieces that make up a horn. If he doesnât, I surely wouldnât trust him to make a horn for me...each horn would be a unique experiment and not necessarily a successful one, at that. One would hope that he has specified all the parts that work for specific bores and features. Even if he has ãgolden hornsä (ideal models of each horn) to copy, specs from those horns could be generated. Even some of the soldering could be job shopped out. Hopefully his people would still solder the slide. Just as it requires rudiments to play a piece of music, it also requires rudiments to machine parts for a trombone. The fundamentals that Steve uses, in the manufacturing of trombones, are identical to those of machinists who crank out disc drive parts, car parts, etc. Machinists just turn out parts as per the drawings. If there are no drawings, there should be, and an engineer can generate them. Even the slide of a trombone has sloppy tolerances compared to those is a disk drive and disk drives are plentiful and cheap. The artistry is in creating a horn worth manufacturing, not in cranking out identical models. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:47:42 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists Message-ID: <20000204194742.39446.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Happy Chinese New Year to all Asian, Chinese trombonists!!! >Best Regards, >Eric Ang You mean that Iâm not invited to your fabulous feast with Peking duck, mushrooms and greens, snow pea leaves in garlic, salt and pepper prawns (in the shells, please), ...and noodles for good luck. Am I being discriminated against, here? DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:07:16 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Listmembers: I deleted Sabutin's comments to save bandwidth, but I really feel for what he is saying. However, I think that a reality check is also in order. The bottom line is that musicians' situation is not that much different than an most other lines of work. A professional musician, unless he is on his own, is an employee (a paid whore if you like) just like a janitor, or a factory worker, or any other job. And as such, they suffer the same injustices. I happen to work in a powerplant. While I cannot complain about my pay, I can assure you that it is far below the paid meeting attenders that we call management. And why? I don't know. If every manager in this utility would drop dead tomorrow, our plants would still generate electricity at full capacity, and with a lot less overhead. Could we say the same about the mechanics? No. The operators? No. The engineers? Well, maybe. These are the people who are REQUIRED to generate your electricity, and unlike music, our jobs do not have a "fun" counterpart. There are no "high school reliability engineers" nor are there "community nuclear power plants". We are all highly skilled professionals. A mistake on our part can (and has) cost people their lives. But you know what? Every word that Sabutin said applies to us, too. As a worker, I can sympathize completely. A manager is nothing without the workers, and a music director is nothing without a band. Why the gap in pay? However, when it really comes down to it, I chose this profession. I could have finished my engineering degree and gotten an MBA and be driving a Lexus, too. No, I chose to go to work as a mechanic instead. I could have become a doctor, or a lawyer. I could even have started my own consulting firm. But no, I chose to work in the Reliability Engineering Department of a public utility, and not even the best paying one in the country. So, I currently drive an old Ford Aerostar with 168,000 miles on it. And when it comes right down to it, every musician on this list chose their profession, too. Nobody said that you had to "play" for a living. Nobody told you that you had to enter the cut throat, dog eat dog world of music. Hearing musicians cry about their condition is about as sad as hearing a nuclear worker cry about the radiation or a mechanic whine because he got dirty. If you don't like it, get a different job. I have yet to meet a "stupid" musician as far as intelligence goes. Any one of you who had the self discipline to master your instrument, the patience to make it through your schooling, and the toughness to take what has been thrown at you (which Sabutin so accurately describes) could have made it in WHATEVER profession that you chose. You have what it takes to do about anything. But, you chose music. Who's fault is that? In addition, the type of music we choose also had a lot to do with our lot in life. Freddy Mercury and the other members of Queen were just has highly educated as many on this list. They did not sell themselves to an orchestra. They made millions. Same with David Bowie. The Beatles. Garth Brooks. Musicians are really no different than sports stars at all. The difference is that you want to participate in track and field while the public wants to see football. Again, who's fault is that? You want to make money? Play what people want to hear! If, on the other hand, you choose to "take the high road" and "be true to yourself", accept the sacrifice that comes with it. You want "your share" of the take? Dump the trombone and pick up an electric guitar. But you will find out something else. Just like sports, people would rather pay to watch football than track. But only one out of a thousand football players really "makes it". Same with music. You may stand a better chance of making a million bucks with a guitar than a trombone, but very few rock stars "make it" either. If your REALLY want security, get a job in a field that people need, one that they are at YOUR mercy, not the other way around. There is a condition that sets professionals apart from others. Professionals, such as musicians and engineers, chose what they wanted to be. We worked hard to earn the title. We put up with all that we did so that we can be what we are now. Most of us have had plenty of time to see what we were getting into. I have been working in powerplants for probably as long or longer than many on this list have been making music professionally. I knew what I was getting into many years ago, and decided to stay. So did you. There will never be a time the "real" workers in this world, be they blue collar or professional, will be on par financially with the managers, owners, directors and other overhead. 80 years ago the Russian workers revolted to try to "get their fair share of the wealth". What did they get in the end? They found out that in the end, the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer in Lenin's utopia just like they do in the "evil Capitalist West". That is the way it is. That is the way it was. That is the way it always will be. Learn to enjoy yourself in spite of it all. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 14:29:14 -0600 From: Scott Moore To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Another Shires Story Message-ID: <389B3696.397C5F91@gustavus.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Bobroff wrote: > After reading the account of one list member (Galen Zinn?--I don't want to > attribute it to the wrong person) I am satisfied that I made the decision > not to contact Steve Shires any more. > One of the members of the Minnesota Orchestra sent his slide out to Steve to be repaired. 18 months ago. Recently while subbing with the orchestra I learned that after repeated promises that the slide was to be returned soon, Mr. Shires finally admitted that it had been misplaced. I have watched this whole ordeal from sitting beside this musician and must say that he was more than patient! What gets me is that he had to threaten legal action to get a straight story. Do you think anyone in Minneapolis is going to buy a Shires trombone? D. Scott Moore Music Department, Gustavus Adolphus College St. Peter, MN 56082 dmoore@gustavus.edu (507) 933-6260 Gustavus Fax: (507) 933-7641 e-Fax: (425) 984-1647 http://www.gac.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:14:21 -0800 From: "Ellard" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Davis & Reichenbach Message-ID: <000d01bf6f54$cff773e0$11f094d1@ellard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6F11.C039BDC0"
I heard the Michael Davis Group with Bill Reichenbach last Sunday evening.

Michael Davis and his drummer, Todd Brechtlein, were great.  Bill
Reichenbach was phenomenal.  It reminded me a little of hearing Watrous for
the first time, when I was about 18 years old, back in the mid - 70's.  A
revelation.

After the concert, both Michael and Bill made themselves available for
autographs.  Imagine, trombone players giving autographs!  One group of
people wanted to get their photograph taken with Michael!

I talked to Bill for a moment and ended the conversation with, "Well, back
to long tones tomorrow!"  His reply: "Me too."

Rod
 From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:40:08 EST From: Servo149@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Another Shires Story Message-ID: <4d.13d7f24.25cca138@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But I thought everyone in the Minnesota Orchestra (Wright, Sundstrom, et al.) played Bach trombones? Am I mistaken on this? Tate Addis From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:49:47 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Celebration Message-ID: <000501bf6f59$e60198a0$7d8401d5@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're quick, you might just make it over to Dynamic Music for free Guinness and Haggis in celebration of Dave Hankin's birthday. Born Feb.4th. 1899, he is now in his 3rd century, which probably explains how he is able to achieve such an amazing sackbut sound on the trombone. Happy Birthday Dave. Scheersh, Hic, A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk http://www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Daily Routines Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, This mostly directed to professional players and teachers, but I was wondering what are some exercizes or etudes that you make it a point to do each day? Some people call these a "warm-up," but what I mean are techniques that you have practiced day after day for years, whether you are required to have them down or not. The reason I ask this is because I have come to the realization that I haven't had much of a routine for the past two years and just took the various hurdles as they came, pretty much only practicing whatever I saw as being directly applicable to what I was assigned in lessons or ensembles, which was a pretty fair amount of work to begin with. Then last semester I had an unfortunate bout with tendonitis and couldn't practice more than 45 min. a day (at best). With that limited amount of time, I had a choice between practicing ensemble music (even playing in ensembles at all)/material assigned in lessons and practicing basic rudimentary technique (long tones, scales, lip slurs, etc), which any college performance major should be doing each day. Guess what went out the window? Well, now that I'm back on my proverbial feet, I'm paying for that and finding myself wondering exactly what I should really prioritize each day, especially since I haven't been consistent with that sort of thing for over a year. I know that this varies somewhat according to the individual, but any general guidelines anyone can offer will be appreciated. Thank you, Beth Lewis PS: I recently checked out my library's copy of "Mastering the Trombone" by Kleinhammer/Yeo which has a section on the subject about which I am asking (and got me really thinking about this)...Great book! From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:50:11 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: daily routines Message-ID: <002901bf6f62$347abb80$72e4490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beth, Well I'm only in high school, but I have found some routines suggested by Jimmy Clark to be very helpful in my playing. He suggested the Remington studies and the Marstellar lip slurs as a daily practice. These methods/routines have really lubricated my playing and have made my chops much stronger. What I have found over the past two years is that they are only good if you stick with them. You shouldn't expect to get worthwhile results if you only do the routines every other day. I have stuck with the Remington for over a year now, and the results are astounding in every sense of my playing. Weston Sprott weslanke@worldnet.att.net From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:34:02 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: kdowdy@oppd.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002042335.SAA06642@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:07 PM 2/4/00 -0600, you wrote: >Listmembers: > >I deleted Sabutin's comments to save bandwidth, but I really feel for what >he is saying. However, I think that a reality check is also in order. The >bottom line is that musicians' situation is not that much different than an >most other lines of work. A professional musician, unless he is on his own, >is an employee (a paid whore if you like) just like a janitor, or a factory >worker, or any other job. ========================= WHOA !!! An honorable musician is NOT a whore, and I personally take offense at that attitude, as should any musician who's ever tried to play real music. For that matter, neither are janitors or factory workers whores. What they ARE is people trying to make an honest living practicing their skills. Sometimes that living for musicians must be earned playing music that's not very appealing...and sometimes we get to play Ellington and Mozart...but no matter WHAT we play, don't call us (and yourself) whores. ============================ And as such, they suffer the same injustices. I >happen to work in a powerplant. While I cannot complain about my pay, I can >assure you that it is far below the paid meeting attenders that we call >management. And why? I don't know. If every manager in this utility would >drop dead tomorrow, our plants would still generate electricity at full >capacity, and with a lot less overhead. Could we say the same about the >mechanics? No. The operators? No. The engineers? Well, maybe. These are >the people who are REQUIRED to generate your electricity, and unlike music, >our jobs do not have a "fun" counterpart. There are no "high school >reliability engineers" nor are there "community nuclear power plants". We >are all highly skilled professionals. A mistake on our part can (and has) >cost people their lives. But you know what? Every word that Sabutin said >applies to us, too. As a worker, I can sympathize completely. A manager is >nothing without the workers, and a music director is nothing without a band. >Why the gap in pay? > >However, when it really comes down to it, I chose this profession. I could >have finished my engineering degree and gotten an MBA and be driving a >Lexus, too. No, I chose to go to work as a mechanic instead. I could have >become a doctor, or a lawyer. I could even have started my own consulting >firm. But no, I chose to work in the Reliability Engineering Department of >a public utility, and not even the best paying one in the country. So, I >currently drive an old Ford Aerostar with 168,000 miles on it. And when it >comes right down to it, every musician on this list chose their profession, >too. Nobody said that you had to "play" for a living. Nobody told you that >you had to enter the cut throat, dog eat dog world of music. Hearing >musicians cry about their condition is about as sad as hearing a nuclear >worker cry about the radiation or a mechanic whine because he got dirty. If >you don't like it, get a different job. =================== No. If you don't like the conditions, but you LOVE your job...or at least the CONTENT of your job, the playing, the making of music... TRY TO CHANGE THE CONDITIONS. I'm not "crying" about these things...I'm asking questions, trying to get answers. For example...do you know what the three best paying serious large jazz ensembles in America are...??? They're the three that have a real musician, someone who's paid the dues of which we're speaking, in a position of "management"...The Lincoln Center Orchestra (Wynton Marsalis), The Carnegie Hall Band (Jon Faddis) and the Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra (David Baker). So ONE of the solutions for ALL of us is to try to BECOME "management" to some degree w/out losing touch w/the musicians who really make the music. (You KNOW that if an experienced orchestral musician were disbursing those $9 million in Colorado things would be different, unless said musician had sold out for the privilege of being management's lapdog...a creature also often known (but not always) as a contractor.) The NY AFM local changed RADICALLY about 20 years ago when a slate of working musicians took over from the dishonest political hacks who had run the union for decades, and things have changed much for the better here as a direct result. If the same thing ever happens on a national level...BIG changes ... There ARE things that can be done...but not if we just shrug, call ourselves whores and drive away in our old Ford Aerostars... =========================== > >I have yet to meet a "stupid" musician as far as intelligence goes. Any one >of you who had the self discipline to master your instrument, the patience >to make it through your schooling, and the toughness to take what has been >thrown at you (which Sabutin so accurately describes) could have made it in >WHATEVER profession that you chose. You have what it takes to do about >anything. But, you chose music. Who's fault is that? ============================= IT'S NOT A FAULT, DAMMIT, IT'S A VIRTUE. =================================== > >In addition, the type of music we choose also had a lot to do with our lot >in life. Freddy Mercury and the other members of Queen were just has highly >educated as many on this list. They did not sell themselves to an >orchestra. They made millions. Same with David Bowie. The Beatles. Garth >Brooks. ==================================== Pop music is another question...and even there, for everyone who makes it, there are thousands grinding away in local dives for a dollar three eighty, and the dive owners are raking off the same percentage of the take as the Princeton educated orchestral administrators. =================================== Musicians are really no different than sports stars at all. The >difference is that you want to participate in track and field while the >public wants to see football. Again, who's fault is that? You want to make >money? Play what people want to hear! If, on the other hand, you choose to >"take the high road" and "be true to yourself", accept the sacrifice that >comes with it. You want "your share" of the take? Dump the trombone and >pick up an electric guitar. ===================== No again. I'm not talking about the violists in the Colorado Symphony wanting parity w/Puff Daddy Combs or Garth Brooks...I'm saying that there IS an audience (and a grants system) that will pay money to support this orchestra and its music...or any OTHER "serious" ensemble...and that the violists are being shortchanged by the system that manages that money. We were NOT told that we would suffer serious financial problems (even if "successful") when we started playing...in fact, all we were warned about was that if we DIDN'T get our playing act together, we'd have money troubles. The people in this (and MOST) symphony orchestras in America HAVE gotten their acts together...they've passed auditions, proven their worth as professional musicians on a very high level over years...and with the exception of the big 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 orchestras, I'll betcha ALL the others are being paid used car salesman wages too, not just the Colorado. =========================== But you will find out something else. Just >like sports, people would rather pay to watch football than track. But only >one out of a thousand football players really "makes it". Same with music. >You may stand a better chance of making a million bucks with a guitar than a >trombone, but very few rock stars "make it" either. If your REALLY want >security, get a job in a field that people need, one that they are at YOUR >mercy, not the other way around. > >There is a condition that sets professionals apart from others. >Professionals, such as musicians and engineers, chose what they wanted to >be. We worked hard to earn the title. We put up with all that we did so >that we can be what we are now. Most of us have had plenty of time to see >what we were getting into. I have been working in powerplants for probably >as long or longer than many on this list have been making music >professionally. I knew what I was getting into many years ago, and decided >to stay. So did you. There will never be a time the "real" workers in this >world, be they blue collar or professional, will be on par financially with >the managers, owners, directors and other overhead. ================== I'm not even talking about being "on a par" w/management. I'm talking about a living wage, and the reasons why that's not being given. It's not about lack of money...not about popularity or supply and demand... It's about waste, greed, and the lack of demand for respect that musicians seem to have had here in America for a hundred years. We were the immigrants, the ethnics, the blacks and South Americans who were happy not to be working w/a pick and shovel, and we let that attitude become institutionalized. It's not that way in Europe, nor in Japan... ================== 80 years ago the >Russian workers revolted to try to "get their fair share of the wealth". >What did they get in the end? They found out that in the end, the rich will >get richer and the poor will get poorer in Lenin's utopia just like they do >in the "evil Capitalist West". That is the way it is. That is the way it >was. That is the way it always will be. Learn to enjoy yourself in spite >of it all. > >Ken Dowdy ======================== Bullshit. Pardon my language, but that's about as mild an expletive as I can use for this kind of crap. Really. Why don't we just fold our tents and crawl back into out little holes, like good children??? George Bernard Shaw said "The artist is the elite of the servant class" 80 years or so ago. Are we to be satisfied w/that? I'm certainly not. S. From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:43:53 -0600 (CST) From: hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Daily Routines Message-ID: <8798-389B8059-10343@storefull-177.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit BethÊLewis wrote: .... I was wondering what are some exercizes or etudes that you make it a point to do each day? Some people call these a "warm-up," but what I mean are techniques that you have practiced day after day for years.... I know that this varies somewhat according to the individual, but any general guidelines anyone can offer will be appreciated. _______________________ AdolphusÊSprott said: ....I have found some routines suggested by Jimmy Clark to be very helpful in my playing. He suggested the Remington studies and the Marstellar lip slurs.... ________________________ I would have to agree with the Remington routines. Neil Humfeld recommended these to me many years ago, as I'm sure he did to Jimmy Clark. There was a time when I always did some of them before every practice and performance. There are several of them and you can pick the ones that benefit you the most. Anymore I play thru a few ballad type melodies and that seems to limber me up fairly well. Another excellent resource is "Practice With The Experts" edited by Paul Tanner. If this book is still in print I would highly recommend it. In it are daily exercises of some of the west coasts all-time top trombonists. Milt Bernhart, Hoyt Bohannon, Robert Marsteller, Dick Nash, Dick Noel, Tommy Pederson, George Roberts, Frank Rosolino, Lloyd Ulyate and Si Zentner to name a few! The 25 routines in this book have much to offer. Hal From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 20:55:35 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002050157.UAA27623@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:48 PM 2/4/00 -0600, you wrote: > Without getting too deeply into the middle of the debate on some pretty >weighty philosophical issues between Sabutin and Dowdy - I do want to make >an observation... > > In the case of the Colorado Symphony - there is a Board of Directors who >have control of the purse strings. It's these people who really "at fault" >for the way the money is spent. I can't speak firsthand about anyone on >that board; but it's probably safe to assume that the attitudes of these >board members towards musicians are what has really come into play here. ===================== I'm sure that IS a large part of the problems...and their attitudes, the attitude of the middle and upper middle classes in general towards serious musicians is an equally large part of the problem. As long as we duck our heads and "Yassuh" our way on through the back door, these Board of Director...read wealthy, socially "connected" types...will continue to dismiss us as part of the hired help. ================================ > > My brother-in-law's brother-in-law (I hope that made sense!) works in >government in Cleveland, OH after having served in the private sector. He >is quite cognizant of issues of pay, waste, etc that are being addressed >here. He served a few years on the board of a Ballet in Cleveland some >years ago. Having been involved in politics he was quite versed in >fundraising - and dramatically increased the funds coming in. He worked >hard on eliminating waste. On both of these issues he had support from the >rest of the board. > > He then next tried to work on the pay situation for the dancers in the >Company. Not only was the pay dismal; but the administration routinely was >late on making the payrolls He argued that this was unacceptable for >employees of ANY organization. He pointed out to these other people that >they would never stand for such a situation in the organizations they worked >for. > > But the attitutude by just about every other board member was that the >dancers were "people in the arts who just have to accept that's how things >are for them". ================= Which is the attitude to which I am objecting in Mr. Dowdy's posts... ========================== They didn't see any problems with missing payrolls; and >again - at this point the financials were very well - it was just poor cash >management. And as for the increased funds - they were more concerned >about fancy bashes for the contributors than trying to increase the pay and >even when he tried to argue it would attract better talent. He even pointed >the high level of turnover as dancers would leave the community for greener >pastures elsewhere. ============================= Bingo. ============================= > > A lot of people in the business world look at being on the board of an >Arts organization like a Symphony or a Ballet as a prestige thing. While >most are certainly sincere in their love for the arts; I doubt that many of >them have had much first-hand relationships with the professionals of their >art before joining the board. I doubt that they have a realistic attitude >towards the life artitsts live. ======================== The general run of people with whom I have had any contact who live on that stratum of society...there are of course exceptions, but not many...treat musicians as vaguely disreputable scoundrels to be hustled off to the kitchen between sets in case they make a dreadful mistake and fart in front of the Duchesses' niece or something. Their idea of what an artist's life is like is NO idea...they don't even consider it. ========================== > > Now Sabutin is trying to mobalize reform; I think it would be great >part-time and former musicians who pursue careers outside of music could get >on these boards. This would make positive change. > > I purchased a condominium in 1989. I mainly purchased it based on >location (less then two blocks from the house I grew up in). I was very >unpleasantly surprised to discover the building itself and the Association's >Finances were in poor shape. When I initially raised issues with people I >got a lot of "I've lived in this building since it went condo in the early >70's and this is how it's always been..." > > So I go on the Board. Everything I was concerned about has been >rectied - and our reserves have close to tripled. In a decade we only had >to increase assesments twice (a third time for two years but then reduced to >the previous level) I don't want to sound like this was single-handed work >on my behalf - there are a couple of other like-minded owners on the board >who feel the same way and did the work with me. I have had to put up with >apathy and complaints from other Association members (and never any sort of >compliments or thanks for my time or the improved situation) > > Now, I admit getting on the board of a $9 million organization is >obviously a lot different than getting on a condo board that no one wants to >serve on anyway; but regardless - there is hope that change can be made from >within. > >Enough Rambling! > >Dan Sniderman =================== Good work !!! It would be nice if musicians could get involved in situations like that...but it's a very closed circle, number one, it takes a GREAT deal of high level hanging out...fund raising parties and such...number two (which costs BIG bucks) and three...being a musician is a full time job. Most of these people are either independently wealthy or have the kind of "let's take a meeting" job that allows them the time to go schmoozing around looking for prestigious appointments which will enable them to hustle even higher up the totem pole. The only way real, working musicians are going to get in positions where they can try to do what your brother in law once removed did is by SUCCESS...a la Wynton, Faddis, and David Baker. Hard work, talent, and success. (And, as in all three of those cases, a certain talent for hustling...not a put down, just the truth of the matter...) Later... S. > From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:57:46 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Celebration Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000204185746.008603b0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 09:49 PM 2/4/00 -0000, Adrian Drover wrote: >If you're quick, you might just make it over to Dynamic Music for free >Guinness and Haggis in celebration of Dave Hankin's birthday. Born Feb.4th. >1899, he is now in his 3rd century, which probably explains how he is able >to achieve such an amazing sackbut sound on the trombone. I'd love to be there, but it's too far to drive, and my windshield wipers wouldn't last that long, anyway! Happy Birthday from me, too, Dave! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:28:27 -0800 From: "Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Daily Routines Message-ID: <000601bf6f80$b0bf7e60$50ef94d1@ellard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe it's time for a new edition. Rod -----Original Message----- From: Hal Starkey To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 5:44 PM Subject: Re: Daily Routines >Beth Lewis wrote: >.... I was wondering what are some exercizes or etudes that you make it >a point to do each day? Some people call these a "warm-up," but what I >mean are techniques that you have practiced day after day for years.... >I know that this varies somewhat according to the individual, but any >general guidelines anyone can offer will be appreciated. > _______________________ >Adolphus Sprott said: ....I have found some routines suggested by >Jimmy Clark to be very helpful in my playing. He suggested the Remington >studies and the Marstellar lip slurs.... > ________________________ >I would have to agree with the Remington routines. Neil Humfeld >recommended these to me many years ago, as I'm sure he did to Jimmy >Clark. There was a time when I always did some of them before every >practice and performance. There are several of them and you can pick >the ones that benefit you the most. Anymore I play thru a few ballad >type melodies and that seems to limber me up fairly well. > >Another excellent resource is "Practice With The Experts" edited by Paul >Tanner. If this book is still in print I would highly recommend it. In >it are daily exercises of some of the west coasts all-time top >trombonists. Milt Bernhart, Hoyt Bohannon, Robert Marsteller, Dick >Nash, Dick Noel, Tommy Pederson, George Roberts, Frank Rosolino, Lloyd >Ulyate and Si Zentner to name a few! The 25 routines in this book have >much to offer. > >Hal > From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:06:56 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <000001bf6f86$87189820$d81d0f3f@default> > > WHOA !!! > > An honorable musician is NOT a whore, and I personally take offense at >that attitude, as should any musician who's ever tried to play real music. > > For that matter, neither are janitors or factory workers whores. > > What they ARE is people trying to make an honest living practicing their >skills. > That depends, Sam. It depends if your are trying to make an honest living, or if you are just trading your time for money. And you are certainly right, no musician that ever tried to make real music is anything close to a whore, nor are those factory workers who try to create a good product, or a janitor who prides himself in having the cleanest building in town. But, I am sorry to say, the above persons are not the vast majority of the workforce. Most just put in their time and collect a paycheck. And it does not take too much time working with shoddy products, using filthy toilets, or listening to garbage music to bear that out. Excellence and integrity exist in every honest profession, but they seem to be the exception these days and not the rule. Someone stated in an earlier post that they believed that the reasons that professional musicians have a hard time making money is that there are to many people that will do it for free just to play. They'll put up with the abuse and the poor conditions just to get a chance to be in the limelight. Maybe I was wrong to to use the word "whore". I believe that there is another word for those that put out for free. > Sometimes that living for musicians must be earned playing music that's >not very appealing...and sometimes we get to play Ellington and >Mozart...but no matter WHAT we play, don't call us (and yourself) whores. > As long as you play it as a true professional and without unneccessary compromise. Based on reading your posts, I can't imagine that you compromise more than absolutely necessary, and I sure as heck can't see you getting screwed without a fight. If you knew me, you would find me much the same way. However, we are NOT the majority in either of our professions > > No. > > If you don't like the conditions, but you LOVE your job...or at least >the CONTENT of your job, the playing, the making of music... > > TRY TO CHANGE THE CONDITIONS. > > I'm not "crying" about these things...I'm asking questions, trying to >get answers. > > For example...do you know what the three best paying serious large jazz >ensembles in America are...??? > > They're the three that have a real musician, someone who's paid the dues >of which we're speaking, in a position of "management"...The Lincoln Center >Orchestra (Wynton Marsalis), The Carnegie Hall Band (Jon Faddis) and the >Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra (David Baker). > > So ONE of the solutions for ALL of us is to try to BECOME "management" >to some degree w/out losing touch w/the musicians who really make the music. That is, perhaps a solution for the true professional such as yourself. > > (You KNOW that if an experienced orchestral musician were disbursing >those $9 million in Colorado things would be different, unless said >musician had sold out for the privilege of being management's lapdog...a >creature also often known (but not always) as a contractor.) > I don't KNOW that a REAL musician would run the Colorado orchestra any other way. I do KNOW of many people who were good at a certain craft failing miserably at buisiness because THEY did not KNOW what it took to run a buisiness. I do know that many enterprises such as orchestras, the United Way, Boy Scouts, churches and the like are poorly run and full of waste. But having been in industry for the last 18 years, I also know that it costs a lot more to run a buisiness that the total of all the employee's salaries. In fact, while manpower may be the single largest line item on the buisness plan, it is seldomly the majority of the operating cost. Perhaps the musicians in Colorado are getting screwed. But I have also read a lot of very valid posts that give a very plausible reason for a $9 million operating budget. > The NY AFM local changed RADICALLY about 20 years ago when a slate of >working musicians took over from the dishonest political hacks who had run >the union for decades, and things have changed much for the better here as >a direct result. If the same thing ever happens on a national level...BIG >changes ... > > There ARE things that can be done...but not if we just shrug, call >ourselves whores and drive away in our old Ford Aerostars... > I spent a lot of time in a Union, Sam. Even time as a steward. I was hated by both sides. I never took a case that I knew was wrong, and I never lost one that I took. I fought for change, and I paid the price. I finally got out of what I was doing and went somewhere else. In the battle against you and the world, bet on the world. Unions can do a lot when they have the proper backing. The Autoworkers and Coal miners have shown this. When cars are not getting built, trains and trucks are not moving products, garbage is not being collected, people notice. However, if every professional musician decided to stay home for a week, would anyone really notice? Most people listen to "popular" music anyway. Baseball players went on strike a year or so ago, and the world kept going. College baseball became more popular. Same would happen to music. If you can change that, THEN you are on to something. > >=========================== >> >>I have yet to meet a "stupid" musician as far as intelligence goes. Any one >>of you who had the self discipline to master your instrument, the patience >>to make it through your schooling, and the toughness to take what has been >>thrown at you (which Sabutin so accurately describes) could have made it in >>WHATEVER profession that you chose. You have what it takes to do about >>anything. But, you chose music. Who's fault is that? > >============================= > > IT'S NOT A FAULT, DAMMIT, IT'S A VIRTUE. > GOOD!!! WE AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!! > > We were NOT told that we would suffer serious financial problems (even >if "successful") when we started playing...in fact, all we were warned >about was that if we DIDN'T get our playing act together, we'd have money >troubles. > Yeah, I've heard that one too. I was told (as I was paying my thousands of dollars for the "privelidge" of an education) that I would be in demand as an aircraft mechanic. The biggest problem that I would have when I got out of school would be deciding WHICH of the high buck offers I would have to settle with. The truth was that most jobs paid $5.00 per hour and if you wanted nine, you moved to New York or LA where that $9.00 got you the same as the $5.00 you were offered (this was 1981, by the way). My wife, a dental technologist, was given the same bullshit with the same hard discovery afterward. Fortunately, I happen to enjoy working on stuff and ended up in a powerplant. I have not decided who are the biggest liars, military recuiters or college recuiters. > The people in this (and MOST) symphony orchestras in America HAVE gotten >their acts together...they've passed auditions, proven their worth as >professional musicians on a very high level over years...and with the >exception of the big 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 orchestras, I'll betcha ALL the >others are being paid used car salesman wages too, not just the Colorado. > I betcha more people bought used cars last year than attended a symphony. That could have something to do with it. > > George Bernard Shaw said "The artist is the elite of the servant class" >80 years or so ago. > > Are we to be satisfied w/that? > > I'm certainly not. Neither am I. And that is one reason that I am not a musician. Shaw was right. He still is, and you are not going to change it. You can complain about it, but you are not going to change it. You are bucking 10,000 years of human history. When has it ever been different, at least in this country? As long as you are working for someone else in a profession that is not critical for life and liberty, you will find yourself on the short end of the stick as often as not. Unions may help, but in the end, what can they do if the general public really does not care? Fine, go on strike. Someone else will take your place. For some reason, "professional unions" don't seem to get the same respect or attention that "labor unions" get. Perhaps it is because professionals do not resort to some of the tactics that got other unions what they wanted. Do you want the government to help? Doctors are required to meet certain standards by law. Keeps the supply down and the demand up. Same with engineers and lawyers. Now if you can convince congress that a poor quality musician can kill someone with a cracked note, or cause a building to collapse if he can't play a C# scale, of wind up costing someone his freedom if he gets confused counting rests, they may pass a law requiring musician certification. Don't hold your breath. If you really want to change things, form your own orchestra or jazz band. Become your own boss, and remember how you got there. The working world is full of people who got tired of taking someone else's crap and went into business for themselves. Many fail and end up back where they started. Others make it. Maybe you will be one of those that do. There are many things in this world that one cannot change on their own. The law of supply and demand is one of them. The other thing that you will not change is the perception that people have that anyone who plays an instrument is a musician. Doug Yeo has posted several excellent posts (as have you) regarding high standards and quality. You are right. But as I have said before, if I were to replace Doug with a good quality college trombonist, would the average audience member know the difference? Would they care? THAT is what is sad, and most likely the root cause of the problems that you (very validly) point out. Change that, and you are really on to something. I will support you, but I intend on taking a few breaths in the meantime. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:11:54 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "If you really want to change things"...start at the ROOT of the problem. Most people go through life barely knowing what any mainstream orchestral instrument is. Play for preschools, kindergartens...they'll love it and you'll have a future audience. They sure aren't going to learn anything about western art music at home. If a high school student subbed for Doug Yeo, I can almost guarantee that the average audience member will be able to tell a difference (provided they're actually listening and the part has more than two notes). They may not be able to say "his D's are consistently flat" "his tone lacks focus," or "he's 3 measures off," but _anyone_ willing to use their ears will be able to tell (FEEL) a difference between a seasoned professional musician and a 'green' high schooler. This attitude that music can only be appreciated by an elite few is what's driving the demand down! People do not physically need music to survive, so it's entirely up to us to encourage and cultivate future audiences (especially now that 'classical music' is so far removed from mainstream culture) and respect those few that we presently have. Beth Lewis ______________________________ Ken Dowdy wrote: If you really want to change things, form your own orchestra or jazz band. Become your own boss, and remember how you got there. The working world is full of people who got tired of taking someone else's crap and went into business for themselves. Many fail and end up back where they started. Others make it. Maybe you will be one of those that do. There are many things in this world that one cannot change on their own. The law of supply and demand is one of them. The other thing that you will not change is the perception that people have that anyone who plays an instrument is a musician. Doug Yeo has posted several excellent posts (as have you) regarding high standards and quality. You are right. But as I have said before, if I were to replace Doug with a good quality college trombonist, would the average audience member know the difference? Would they care? THAT is what is sad, and most likely the root cause of the problems that you (very validly) point out. Change that, and you are really on to something. I will support you, but I intend on taking a few breaths in the meantime. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 21:00:08 -0800 From: Larry White To: MBennetts@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <389BAE58.640B846A@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why are we all speculating? Does not the CSO or should I say is it (CSO) not a public organisation. If that is the case the audited Financial Statements should show where the money comes from and where it goes. Don't forget some money has to be put away for 'retained earnings' to use at a later date. Does the CSO sponsor anybody? Do all the musicians getpaid on the same level. Or did I miss some of the first post and the Principals, Co-Prinicpals, etc get paid various amounts. What about Organisation owned instruments and other chattels? What about travelling and admin and other related operating costs? I work for a non profit charitable organisation which we feel is run on a very lean, mean basis, but yes, about 60% of our annual operating budget is for salaries, and up here in this neck of the woods (British Columbia, Canada) we budgeted for approx 5 % vacation & sick time plus an additional 12.5% for Benefits (which are also considered payroll taxes). We are not extravagant by any stretch of the imagination, but these social costs just eat up the dollars. Mind you, we run a 24 hour facility where we have to have staff in all the time for the residents' sake thus you cannot shut the doors at 5:00 and turn the lights out and go home only to come back tomorrow and continue where you left off. Perhaps that might help to explain a high cost for salaries still, my jist of this thread is personnel costs are expensive. Now on another matter there are these football players, basketball players and baseball players who could finance one of our large orchestras out of their change purse and that my friends is where the priorities have failed us now. Just ask anybody like my wife who has her Masters in Nursing and who has given her life for her profession and earns less than some of the pro athletes earn for a quarter of a football game, or on and on and on. Yes we have lost our sense of priorities. very sad indeed. Larry White Vancouver BC MBennetts@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 02/03/00 12:47:43 PM Central Standard Time, > sabutin@mindspring.com writes: > > > This leaves THREE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS unaccounted > > for. > > I've found another $2.1 million or so, and don't know enough about the real > estate to know how much to add for that. > > The $2.1 million consists of what might be called "payroll related" items - > payroll taxes, medical and other employee insurance, and pension or > retirement contribution. The payroll number you calculated totals $4.2 > million: $3,280,000 for musicians, $800,000 for staff, and $120,000 for a > director. Payroll taxes would add about 10% to that number, or $420,000. > (Employer's share of Social Security tax is 7.65%, just like the employee's > share. Add to that another 2 to 2-1/2% for state and federal unemployment > taxes, and you're at 10%. Family medical coverage costs $6 to $8,000 per > year per employee nowadays. For 100 employees, call it $700,000. Finally, I > assume that musicians at this level are being taken care of reasonably well > for pension or other retirement contributions. This could easily cost an > additional $10,000 annually per employee, or $1 million. > > As to a building "paying for itself", that might or might not be true - I > don't know about the day-to-day economics of office, rehearsal and > performance space for a symphony orchestra. But I do know that, if it "pays > for itself" it's by means of some portion of the $9 million of revenues being > used to pay for the building costs. In other words, it's another call on the > $9 million. > > Hope that's of some value. > > Mike Bennett > --------------- > "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this > instrument can make God's voice heard". > 16th Century > Bishop of Västerås, Sweden From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:26:05 -0600 From: "Burk, Malinda G." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Daily Routines Message-ID: <200002050729.BAA19865@sol.cs.nwciowa.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all, I just thought that I would share my daily routine, as well. I start out with some breathing exercises to continue to expand my air capacity. I set the metronome at 60, breathe in 4 beats, hold for 4, release over 4 beats. I continue this pattern, changing the middle hold for 8, then 16, 32, 48, 64. I have worked my way up, so don't overexert trying to hold your breathe for 64 beats on the first day. Then I do some lip slurs and long tones, focusing on pitch, tone, and smooth, even sounding notes. The next step is to play a Bb just below middle C, then an A, back to Bb, then Ab, back to Bb, etc. down the chromatic scale as far as possible, maintaining good tone. Then I repeat this exercise starting on D (right above middle C). Occasionally I run through the major scales to refresh my memory. Anyway, I have found that these exercises work for me. Malinda Burk Freshman, Northwestern College Orange City, IA From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:24:49 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: focused practice Message-ID: <000301bf6fa1$b77cf220$97e0490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just finished posting a message to another group about the importance of focused practice when I began to question myself. I practice with focus, or at least what a high school student would consider to be focus. However, I have noticed that when I am really tuned in and practicing, I can only play daily drills and routines with focus for about 25-30 minutes at a time, maybe shorter. When I'm playing major solo literature, I'd be lucky to last for 15 minutes of FOCUSED practice. Before it's all over and done with, I end up practicing 2.5-3 hours a day in little fragments ranging from 10-30 minutes each. Is this normal for most players, or is my attention span really short? I used to practice 1 1/2 or two hours straight, and I always ended up really pissed off and frustrated, so I switched to my new method. I'd appreciate some of your thoughts on how practice time should be managed and what some of your practice schedules are like. Weston Sprott weslanke@worldnet.att.net Principal in Texas All-State Band (don't worry, I'm not trying to be an egotistical 17 year-old, All-State bands are TRASH CITY) From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:45 2000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:42:34 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: Adolphus Sprott Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: focused practice Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Adolphus Sprott wrote: > I just finished posting a message to another group about the importance of > focused practice when I began to question myself. I practice with focus, or > at least what a high school student would consider to be focus. However, I > have noticed that when I am really tuned in and practicing, I can only play > daily drills and routines with focus for about 25-30 minutes at a time, > maybe shorter. When I'm playing major solo literature, I'd be lucky to last > for 15 minutes of FOCUSED practice. Before it's all over and done with, I > end up practicing 2.5-3 hours a day in little fragments ranging from 10-30 > minutes each. Is this normal for most players, or is my attention span > really short? YES! (to the "normal" part :) Michael Mulcahy said in one of his IU masterclasses that he never practices more than around 25 min. at a time. If you can (it gets more difficult in college, especially at one where unoccupied practice rooms are hard to come by) break your practicing up like this, you'll probably get much more out of it (plus you're less likely to run into overuse injuries). Beth I used to practice 1 1/2 or two hours straight, and I always > ended up really pissed off and frustrated, so I switched to my new method. > I'd appreciate some of your thoughts on how practice time should be managed > and what some of your practice schedules are like. > > Weston Sprott > weslanke@worldnet.att.net > Principal in Texas All-State Band (don't worry, I'm not trying to be an > egotistical 17 year-old, All-State bands are TRASH CITY) > > From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:46 2000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:02:06 -0600 (CST) From: hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Daily Routines Message-ID: <10185-389BCAEE-10906@storefull-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ÊÊI didn't see this posted earlier, so I hope it's not a duplicate- BethÊLewis wrote: .... I was wondering what are some exercizes or etudes that you make it a point to do each day? Some people call these a "warm-up," but what I mean are techniques that you have practiced day after day for years.... I know that this varies somewhat according to the individual, but any general guidelines anyone can offer will be appreciated. ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ_______________________ AdolphusÊSprott said: ....I have found some routines suggested by Jimmy Clark to be very helpful in my playing. He suggested the Remington studies and the Marstellar lip slurs.... ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ________________________ I would have to agree with the Remington routines. Neil Humfeld recommended these to me many years ago, as I'm sure he did to Jimmy Clark. There was a time when I always did some of them before every practice and performance. There are several of them and you can pick the ones that benefit you the most. Anymore I play thru a few ballad type melodies and that seems to limber me up fairly well. Another excellent resource is "Practice With The Experts" edited by Paul Tanner. If this book is still in print I would highly recommend it. In it are daily exercises of some of the west coasts all-time top trombonists. Milt Bernhart, Hoyt Bohannon, Robert Marsteller, Dick Nash, Dick Noel, Tommy Pederson, George Roberts, Frank Rosolino, Lloyd Ulyate and Si Zentner to name a few! The 25 routines in this book have much to offer. Hal From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:46 2000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:11:17 -0600 (CST) From: hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: test Message-ID: <10192-389BCD15-3919@storefull-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) test From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:46 2000 Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:48:14 +0000 From: Joseph Green To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <389C5440.A11C004C@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suspect that this myth-in-the-making was derived from an article about Jazz saxophonists that was published in December in the British Medical Journal. A few things to note about that article: 1. It has already been mentioned on this list. 2. It was published in an issue of that Journal that traditionally carries material on less-than-serious topics (the Christmas issue, perhaps?). 3. The many and varied flaws in the study design, and the authors' obvious ignorance and fuzzy thinking have already been pointed out by readers who posted their responses on the eBMJ website. You can find the article (and the link to the responses) here: http://www.bmj.org/cgi/content/full/319/7225/1612 JG > To everyone, I know this sounds absolutely absurd but it has been bothering > me tremendously over the last few days. The other night in rehearsal a > colleague of mine told me he felt dumb. I asked what he was talking about > and he told me about an article he had read in the Orange County Register > (I'm not familiar with it but I assume it is as respectable a paper as the > county of Orange County could have) giving the details of some study that > indicated a lowering of intelligence in trombone players, specifically > those who used circular breathing. He said it had something to do with the > amount of pressure placed on the head while playing. Consider the source ... dig up the citation and I'll be happy to critique the study protocol. It's so nice to have useful skills ... If trombonists have the problem, it should also be present in Australian aborigines and other didjeridoo players, in tuba and contrabassoon players, and in free divers. Not to mention Mr Gorelick ... Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:46 2000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:05:16 -0600 From: "Daniel P. Sniderman" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <002501bf6faf$bd39b960$6911e3d8@dsl.telocity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was thinking that when I saw the first couple of notes; as to whether the financials were available for that or other Symphony's - and it would certainly be interesting to look at them. However - I would guess they are not public organizations - but probably Private Not-For-Profit Corporations. I'm not well enough versed in these to know whether they have to publish their financial statements. (Perhaps to contributors over a certain amount?) Any attorney's or accountants on the list who might know this stuff? Certainly Private For-Profit Corporations don't (and I doubt anyone would want to look at mine!) Dan Sniderman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry White" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:00 PM Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Why are we all speculating? Does not the CSO or should I say is it (CSO) not a public organisation. If that is the case the audited Financial Statements should show where the money comes from and where it goes. Don't forget some money has to be put away for 'retained earnings' to use at a later date. From ???@??? Mon Feb 07 08:10:46 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:48:43 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists Message-ID: <000001bf6fb8$b266a440$315c063e@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Pliskin To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists > >Happy Chinese New Year to all Asian, Chinese trombonists!!! > >Best Regards, > >Eric Ang > > You mean that I'm not invited to your fabulous feast with Peking duck, > mushrooms and greens, snow pea leaves in garlic, salt and pepper prawns (in > the shells, please), ...and noodles for good luck. > > Am I being discriminated against, here? Not necessarily. Do you speak Mandarin? A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk http://www.adios.co.uk