TROMBONE-L Digest 1588 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Steve Shires again by David Bobroff 2) Yamaha Trigger Problem by BrianB@PR-CN.COM 3) Re: Steve Shires again by Larry & Carol Bronisz 4) Re: trigger(s) for middle and upper register? by Galen Zinn 5) Shires (From Out Of The Woodwork It Cometh) by Galen Zinn 6) Shires Trombones by "Lawrence Borden" 7) RE: trigger(s) for middle and upper register? 50/50 theory by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 8) RE: Telemann & Haydn by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 9) Re: Steve Shires again by Tbcwes@aol.com 10) Re: Shires Trombones by Tbcwes@aol.com 11) RE: VALUE of double pedal Bb - GOT IT by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 12) THANKS! re. Men's Health Question by "John Clark" 13) RE: trigger(s) for middle and upper register? by "Hugo Garcķa Sampedro" 14) Re: Shires Trombones by "Daniel Pliskin" 15) Re: Yamaha Trigger Problem by "Denver D. Seifried" 16) Re: listing of Spike's trombonists by "Michael W. Millar & Dava S. Millar" 17) Re: listing of Spike's trombonists by "Christopher Smith" 18) Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by mick007@ucla.edu 19) test by sabutin@mindspring.com 20) Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 21) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by Dennis Clason 22) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by sabutin@mindspring.com 23) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by Chris Waage 24) RE: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by "Berggren, Erik" 25) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by "MARK LEWIS" 26) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by PAUL LUKAS 27) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by MBennetts@aol.com 28) RE: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 29) It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is by MBennetts@aol.com 30) New on list. by Opieman3@aol.com 31) RE: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 32) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by "Daniel Pliskin" 33) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by Dennis Clason 34) Re: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is by MBennetts@aol.com 35) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 36) Ron Wilken's New CD by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 37) Re: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is by Earl Needham 38) RE: Ron Wilken's New CD by longtones@mindspring.com 39) Fw: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by "Daniel P. Sniderman" 40) Re: Degrading CD's by Joseph Green 41) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by Ralph L Holloway 42) Looking for Rob Stoneback by "Dean Hubbard" 43) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by Mike Coyle 44) Trombone playing and brain cells by James Scott 45) Christian Lindberg Mouthpiece by "Steve Beck" 46) Re: Ron Wilken's New CD by daboneman 47) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by sabutin@mindspring.com 48) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by "Gary Maxwell" 49) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by NHSGrizzly16@aol.com 50) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by "Robert Holland" 51) Another Sauer Masterclass by "John Lavoie" 52) good question (feel free to forward my response) by Charles 53) Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? by Charles 54) Playing Trombone by Randy Fendrick 55) Re: New Valve (was trigger(s) for middle and upper register) by Matmutt@aol.com 56) Re: Playing Trombone by Angie Brunk 57) Re: New Valve (was trigger(s) for middle and upper register) by "Steve Beck" 58) Re: Yamaha Trigger Problem by Douglas Yeo From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:30 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:12:43 +0000 From: David Bobroff To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Steve Shires again Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000203131243.007fc1d0@centrum.is> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been staying out of the Shires discussion but now I feel like I must make a few points here. I contacted Steve Shires about ten years ago. I was playing a road gig at the time. I called him to say that I would be in the Boston area in about a month and would like to try something if he had anything available. He said that he had some things that were due to be shipped out about then and that I should call him a week or two before my arrival to remind him. When I called to remind him he told me that he didn't have anything as it had just recently been shipped out. I tried again the next time I was going to be in the area. It was essentially a replay of the above. I also tried a third time, same story. Mark Lewis said: > - Perspective is important, as Peter points out below. When Steve says it > will be three weeks, be amused. If it arrives, be amazed. Don't stress. Then he shouldn't say "three weeks". >He almost always comes to the > phone weekday mornings, and is very pleasant to talk to. Yes, he *did* always come to the phone and he *was* very pleasant. >and please > remain patient and gracious. Well my series of phone calls took place over a period of six months and in that time I never had an opportunity to even _see_ anything he did. Peter Ellefson wrote: >Maybe Steve should just quote a 3 year wait. Yeah, he probably should. But the fact remains that after calling him over a period of six months and getting the same routine each time left me with the definite impression that I was being ignored. I was ready to buy an instrument and I was being ignored. Guess what? I stopped calling. I won't call again. I won't buy a horn from him. There is a rule of thumb which says that of the three: Quality Service Price ...you get to pick two, and no more than two. I expect to pick two when making such a purchase. Steve Shires' horns are not inexpensive so I expect Quality and Service. I got so little service that I was unable to detdermine for myself if there was any quality. Now before anyone starts screaming at me about expecting a fine craftsman to fawn at my feet for deigning to consider one of his instruments, I'm not. What I'm saying is that I think it is a minimum courtesy to a potential customer to be honest about the situation and not make him feel as if he is being ignored. After reading the account of one list member (Galen Zinn?--I don't want to attribute it to the wrong person) I am satisfied that I made the decision not to contact Steve Shires any more. David Bobroff From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:31 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:54:33 -0500 From: BrianB@PR-CN.COM To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Yamaha Trigger Problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi folks. Being as we were short a bass trombone in our group, our director has lent us his very seldom used Yamaha dependent rotor bass (a 612, maybe?). Its in great shape, but it has always had one flaw and he says he hasn't played it enough to get it fixed. I tried this and its really annoying. The second (finger) trigger hits the slide joint screw ring (I don't know what its actually called. Its the ring that holds the valve and slide sections together.) when activated. This prevent the valve from opening all the way. There is a length adjustment on the actuating lever, but its not long enough at even its longest setting to prevent striking the screw ring. Is this problem common with this model? Anyone found a way to get around it that doesn't required a trip to the repair shop? Thanks Brian From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:31 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:24:31 -0700 From: Larry & Carol Bronisz To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Steve Shires again Message-ID: <4.1.20000203071143.00c3f100@mail.trail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:12 PM 2/3/00 +0000, David Bobroff wrote: >I've been staying out of the Shires discussion but now I feel like I must >make a few points here. > >I contacted Steve Shires about ten years ago. That is very interesting. I know that eight years ago Steve was working at Edwards in Wisconsin - he helped me pick out a horn at the Edwards factory in November of 1992. He didn't found his company until 1995. >I called him to say that I would be in the Boston area in about >a month and would like to try something if he had anything available. He >said that he had some things that were due to be shipped out about then and >that I should call him a week or two before my arrival to remind him. When >I called to remind him he told me that he didn't have anything as it had >just recently been shipped out. The only time I have been to his factory (in July of 1998) he had quite a selection of horns to sample. They played beautifully BTW. - Larry From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:31 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 06:30:58 -0700 From: Galen Zinn To: Cc: Trombone List Subject: Re: trigger(s) for middle and upper register? Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/3/00 1:46 AM, Charles at chardy@totcon.com wrote: > What are your feelings and opinions for using the trigger(s) (in moving > passages) > for notes in middle and upper registers? Using the Gb trigger on a bass trombone can give you an intune Ab above the staff in first position. Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:32 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:00:04 -0700 From: Galen Zinn To: Trombone List Subject: Shires (From Out Of The Woodwork It Cometh) Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm almost sorry I started the Shires discussion (THIS TIME). I'm so sick of dealing with problems and waiting for parts. I thought I should let you know the latest. After facing continuous sticky slide problems, finally had to shell out $40 yesterday to have a local master craftsman, Dick Akright, remove a bend from my BRAND NEW SHIRES BASS TROMBONE OUTER SLIDE. Dick said the horn came from the factory that way. All sorts of other problems have already occurred. I feel "dollared to death". The most recent "promise" from Mr. Shires is the delivery of a Thayer valve section (early next week). We shall see. Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:32 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:10:10 -0600 From: "Lawrence Borden" To: Subject: Shires Trombones Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think everyone who is upset about Steve's slow delivery habits has a wrong-headed attitude. I just want to put a couple of points in perspective. First, these are custom made instruments. They aren't cookie-cutter models. This takes time and is very expensive to manufacture. If we want the best then we need to be patient. The more pressure we put on an artisan like Steve the more we end up compromising the very product we would like to be flawless. Second, our colleagues who play French horns, oboes, English horns, violins, violas..., for example, are willing to wait for several years in some cases to get models from some makers. They don't like it, but that is the way it is for the quality they want. We are perhaps too used to pushing for immediate gratification? Just a thought. Third, if you REALLY don't like it then buy something else. That is the way of commerce. I, for one, prefer to wait until Steve is able to finish a horn for me - however long that takes. Yes, it is quite true that he seems to have an overly optimistic sense of when deliveries can happen, but that may be nothing more than his positive outlook. I don't know. I agree that it is not at all an ideal business practice to promise a delivery date and then slip it again and again. I have suggested to Steve myself that he only promise a date that is realistic and if he beats it then he has happy customers. That just isn't the way he works. We need to recognize this. Fourth, It IS a great horn. It IS worth the wait. It IS worth the price and more. I haven't wanted to play anything else since beginning to play my Shires. It has allowed me to realize much more of my potential as a player and musician than my earlier equipment. Fifth, Beating up on Steve is non-productive. For ANY of you who are married (and I mean male and female) you know that your spouse is a made person. Expecting them to change just because you want them to is a waste of time and leads to limitless friction. Even with the closest contact we cannot change the behavior of someone unless they want to change. Even then, research shows that habitual behavior of all kinds is almost impossible to change. I suggest we accept the person Steve is and vote with orders and dollars if you are unhappy. Sure- tell him you're unhappy and what you're going to do, but at the end Steve will do with his own company what he wishes. He will run it as he sees fit and believes is necessary. We may not agree sometimes, but that's the way it is. I will continue to play Shires. I will suggest that my students try the Shires. I will recommend the Shires and I will be happy or at least willing to wait for my Shires. My choice, but based on the net value of what a Shires brings to my playing. That is without price. Lawrence Borden Nashville Symphony Orchestra Vanderbilt University From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:32 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:10:58 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: chardy@totcon.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: trigger(s) for middle and upper register? 50/50 theory Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082F12@LEE2> Same as for any other alternate position. There is no reason not to make the trigger sound good in the upper register. Basic 50/50 theory for alternate positions, which includes trigger positions if you've got them: Spend 50% of your time practicing the most efficient movement pattern possible - smallest jumps, most number of movements in the same direction as possible before turning around, etc. This develops your technical ability AND your skill at doing alternate positions in tune and in good tone. Spend 50% of your time deliberately practicing the worst, most inefficient movement pattern possible. This develops your slide speed AND prepares you for those cases where you have no other choice than to make the large, wrong direction motions; they will occur. Then for performance, play what sounds best. yours, maybe humorously and maybe not, tim richardson > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles [SMTP:chardy@totcon.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 3:46 AM > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: trigger(s) for middle and upper register? > > What are your feelings and opinions for using the trigger(s) (in moving > passages) > for notes in middle and upper registers? From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:32 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:11:59 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Telemann & Haydn Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain David Oliver wrote: > The conservative estimate is that Haydn lifted at least 12 melodies. > As this occurred before copyright protection, anything was fair game. > It was fascinating to hear the original version, and then hear what > Haydn had converted it to. > Handel stole so much that it seems nearly everything he composed is full of someone else's tunes. The "Romanza" movement of Mozart's 3rd horn concerto was lifted from a horn piece by Michael Haydn (and improved significantly). I don't have a copy of the old Oxford Companion to Music handy, but it seems to me that this kind of stealing is just the kind of thing Percy Scholes would have included an article about. Up until our suit-happy time, the important thing was not where a composer found a theme, it was what he did to make it his own. If challenged on the 12 stolen melodies, Haydn just might be surprised that no one recognized all the others he took. It was just an expected part of making music. You want to hear about genuine theft? Check out the publishers of the time, who would copy and sell anything they could get their hands on without the composers' knowledge or consent. The real prize goes to a publisher in Paris who prepared to publish a set of string quartets by Romulus Hofstader, or something like that. Just before it was ready to go on the market, Haydn's early string quartets reached Paris and made a big splash, so the publisher scraped Hofstader's name off the title page and engraved Haydn's in it's place. It took 200 years for the world to recognize that Haydn probably never heard the quartets that were known as his opus 3! ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:34 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:16:19 EST From: Tbcwes@aol.com To: bronisz@trail.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Steve Shires again Message-ID: <30.c43c2b.25caf5c3@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/3/00 9:24:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, bronisz@trail.com writes: << I've been staying out of the Shires discussion but now I feel like I must >make a few points here. > >I contacted Steve Shires about ten years ago. That is very interesting. I know that eight years ago Steve was working at Edwards in Wisconsin - he helped me pick out a horn at the Edwards factory in November of 1992. He didn't found his company until 1995. >> Very true. He might have been working for Osmund at the time. -Wes From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:35 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:21:58 EST From: Tbcwes@aol.com To: Lawrence.Borden@home.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Shires Trombones Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/3/00 10:12:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, Lawrence.Borden@home.com writes: << I think everyone who is upset about Steve's slow delivery habits has a wrong-headed attitude. I just want to put a couple of points in perspective. First, these are custom made instruments. They aren't cookie-cutter models. This takes time and is very expensive to manufacture. If we want the best then we need to be patient. The more pressure we put on an artisan like Steve the more we end up compromising the very product we would like to be flawless. Second, our colleagues who play French horns, oboes, English horns, violins, violas..., for example, are willing to wait for several years in some cases to get models from some makers. They don't like it, but that is the way it is for the quality they want. We are perhaps too used to pushing for immediate gratification? Just a thought. Third, if you REALLY don't like it then buy something else. That is the way of commerce. I, for one, prefer to wait until Steve is able to finish a horn for me - however long that takes. Yes, it is quite true that he seems to have an overly optimistic sense of when deliveries can happen, but that may be nothing more than his positive outlook. I don't know. I agree that it is not at all an ideal business practice to promise a delivery date and then slip it again and again. I have suggested to Steve myself that he only promise a date that is realistic and if he beats it then he has happy customers. That just isn't the way he works. We need to recognize this. Fourth, It IS a great horn. It IS worth the wait. It IS worth the price and more. I haven't wanted to play anything else since beginning to play my Shires. It has allowed me to realize much more of my potential as a player and musician than my earlier equipment. Fifth, Beating up on Steve is non-productive. For ANY of you who are married (and I mean male and female) you know that your spouse is a made person. Expecting them to change just because you want them to is a waste of time and leads to limitless friction. Even with the closest contact we cannot change the behavior of someone unless they want to change. Even then, research shows that habitual behavior of all kinds is almost impossible to change. I suggest we accept the person Steve is and vote with orders and dollars if you are unhappy. Sure- tell him you're unhappy and what you're going to do, but at the end Steve will do with his own company what he wishes. He will run it as he sees fit and believes is necessary. We may not agree sometimes, but that's the way it is. I will continue to play Shires. I will suggest that my students try the Shires. I will recommend the Shires and I will be happy or at least willing to wait for my Shires. My choice, but based on the net value of what a Shires brings to my playing. That is without price. Lawrence Borden Nashville Symphony Orchestra Vanderbilt University >> Since I was at the factory one of the times as Mr. Borden, I can also report that the Shires horn allows Mr. Borden to play the Ride unbelievably laud. ;-) -Wes From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:35 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:22:19 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: astro@pconline.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: VALUE of double pedal Bb - GOT IT Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082F13@LEE2> Got it! Played my first high F at rehearsal last night. Before rehearsal I was working an F-trigger exercise, where I wrap a rubber band around the trigger, holding it down so the horn stays in F. When the first number came up I wasn't prepared, yanked the rubber band off, and you guessed it, it caught on the slide lock with out my noticing it. First note was a 6th partial F, no problem; second was the G, and a tricky spot to tune, so I raced out to 4th quickly! Yep, rubber band stretched out, slide slipped off my thumb, and SMACK! came back and got me in the mouth, producing my first ever 12th partial F and laughter from the rest of the section. Your milage may vary. This may or may not be humor. But next time I buy a Bach I'll get the light weight slide. Adrian, over to you. yours, tim richardson > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Coyle [SMTP:astro@pconline.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:47 PM > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: Re: VALUE of double pedal Bb > > >> Try this, Tim: Put the end of the slide up against a wall, grab the > horn > >> by the bell and by the slide, then lean in and push against the wall as > >> hard as you can while also pulling the horn with both hands with as > much > >> strength as you can, tighten your lips till it hurts and then BLOW!!!!! > >> See, high f is nothing at all :) > > > >Yeah, I can tell that you are undoubtedly a top-line professional > trombone > >teacher with many successes to your credit, but how do I do this on a > gig? > > Adrian, I'm shocked that you, the consummate professional, do not know the > answer to this! Only except gigs were you'll be playing near a wall! > Alternatively, you can have a second party push on the back of your head. > > > Simple as that ;-) > > M. > > PS - most of my former students have had to undergo extensive dental > reconstruction. > > > > >A. > > > >Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) > >Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk > >Business: studio@adios.co.uk > >http://www.adios.co.uk > > From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:35 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:36:59 GMT From: "John Clark" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: THANKS! re. Men's Health Question Message-ID: <20000203163659.40945.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have attempted to acknowledge everyone individually for their wonderful responses. The stories and information are greatly appreciated, and many list members truly define the term "Macho" (especially one who rode a bike to and from his procedure). Thank you all so much for your messages. "John" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:36 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:06:52 -0300 From: "Hugo Garcķa Sampedro" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: trigger(s) for middle and upper register? Message-ID: <01bf6e69$114c55a0$LocalHost@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> I'm not so sure in the high register ("french horn" sound), but I found it very useful in the middle one, when a certain passage it becomes easier and cleaner using it (the trigger). I found specially useful to play the B on top of the bass clef with the trigger in flat second position when I'm coming from (or when I'm going to) a "sharp C", or a "natural A", specially in a fast melodic situations. In this sense there are lots of examples in the bordogni (for example etude No. 25 in Rochut I, if my memory is correct). In my opinion you always must practice the passage in the "straight" way (is preferable), but then if you see that with the F att. sounds better then use it. It is just another tool, if it work ... (and now with the new valves the sound quality is no more a so "big" problem). Yours -Hugo From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:36 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:34:11 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Shires Trombones Message-ID: <20000203173411.16723.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Steve, if youāre out there, It isnāt my intention to belittle the intricacies of a beautiful trombone. The invention of some new trombone feature must surely be time consuming and risky. In general, though, going into production on something thatās already been built is quite simple. Iām an engineer who puts things into production on a regular basis. From all the complaints that Iāve been hearing about your operation, over the last year, it surely sounds as if you need a few engineers, working with you. Most and perhaps all of the pieces that make up a trombone can be specified and contracted out, so that your facility and management team need not go through appreciable growing pains. What remains of the artistry can be moved to a series of jigs, not so that artistry can be eliminated, but so that it can be done faster. With so many horns backordered, paying for that engineering shouldnāt be a problem, either. Iād be willing to believe that you could sell even more horns if you could crank them out in a more timely manner. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:36 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:48:57 -0500 From: "Denver D. Seifried" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Yamaha Trigger Problem Message-ID: <000801bf6e6e$f92b84e0$9d735acf@dscomp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, I do not play that particular model of Yamaha Bass Trombone, as mine is a YBL-611-II; however it sounds as though the string adjustment on the actual rotor may not be correct. I would take it to a repair person or to a French horn player, who has some experience re-stringing rotor valves. This is a very frustrating operation, unless you have done it many times. The height of the lever above the bell screw can definitely be controlled by the adjustment of the string on the rotor. I hope this will help. Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield Symphony(OH) & Dayton Jazz Orchestra ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 8:54 AM Subject: Yamaha Trigger Problem > Hi folks. Being as we were short a bass trombone in our group, our director > has lent us his very seldom used Yamaha dependent rotor bass (a 612, > maybe?). Its in great shape, but it has always had one flaw and he says he > hasn't played it enough to get it fixed. > > I tried this and its really annoying. The second (finger) trigger hits the > slide joint screw ring (I don't know what its actually called. Its the ring > that holds the valve and slide sections together.) when activated. This > prevent the valve from opening all the way. There is a length adjustment on > the actuating lever, but its not long enough at even its longest setting to > prevent striking the screw ring. > > Is this problem common with this model? Anyone found a way to get around it > that doesn't required a trip to the repair shop? > > Thanks > Brian > From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:37 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:12:24 -0800 From: "Michael W. Millar & Dava S. Millar" To: "Stewart M. Crane" Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: listing of Spike's trombonists Message-ID: <3899C508.B0FA89D2@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stewart M. Crane wrote: > > Are any of the Spike Jones recordings available on CD? > I have 3: The Spike Jones Anthology (Rhino R271574) 2 CDs, 40 tunes Dinner Music...for people who aren't very hungry (Rhino R2 70261) This is not included on the Anthology The Best of Spike Jones (RCA 07863 53748-2) All tunes included in the Anthology Mike Millar From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:37 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:29:32 -0500 From: "Christopher Smith" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: listing of Spike's trombonists Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi again, The book which my friend Rod McDonald drew from for the listing of trombonists in Spike Jones' groups is: "Spike Jones Off The Record" by Jordan R. Young, 1994 Past Times Publishing Beverly Hills, CA. Later, Chris http://www.geocities.com/~christo From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:37 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:29:17 -0800 From: mick007@ucla.edu To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000203102917.01846660@pop.ben2.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To everyone, I know this sounds absolutely absurd but it has been bothering me tremendously over the last few days. The other night in rehearsal a colleague of mine told me he felt dumb. I asked what he was talking about and he told me about an article he had read in the Orange County Register (I'm not familiar with it but I assume it is as respectable a paper as the county of Orange County could have) giving the details of some study that indicated a lowering of intelligence in trombone players, specifically those who used circular breathing. He said it had something to do with the amount of pressure placed on the head while playing. What I am wondering is if anyone else has read this article or heard anything remotely pertaining to this? Or is this just fluff? As ridiculous as this sounds this post really isn't a joke, I'm actually concerned. I wonder if maybe it had something to do with a prolonged lack of oxygen or normal respiration that might occur if one was circular breathing and has very little to do with the typical, controlled playing of the trombone. I know some people would do things like hold their trombones against a wall and have people push them to hit high notes or blowing so hard that they pass out, I could see this causing problems, but just regular trombone playing? Opinions everyone? Mick From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:37 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:42:06 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone@mindspring.com Subject: test Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:37 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:44:49 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002031846.NAA16525@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apologies if this is a reprint. I sent it the first time and it was rejected by the listprocessor, sent it a second time and it didn't show up at all. Three's the charm, I hope... =========================== At 11:46 PM 2/2/00 -0800, you wrote: >I noticed an interesting article in today's Rocky Mountain News about >the newly negotiated 5 year collective bargaining agreement between >the Colorado Symphony Association and the musicians. > >The season is being expanded to 44 weeks, and the agreement >(retroactive to Sep. 1, 1999) specifies a base salary of $818/week. >This comes out to $35,992/year. Remember of course that there are >other sources of income for musicians, and this is the minimum rate. > >The article states that the contract was designed to match contracts >at orchestras with slightly higher annual budgets (such as the >Milwaukee Symphony). The CSO currently has a budget of $9 >million/year. >The orchestra will also expand from 79 to 82 players, which is fine by >me. > ================================= Let's see here... 82 players, let's just say the average salary comes to more like $40,000/year including the principal players...that means that out of NINE MILLION dollars, the actual musicians are being paid are being paid $3,280,000. And where does the other FIVE MILLION,SEVEN HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND dollars go ? I'm sure there has to be a substantial staff to administrate a symphony of this size. The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, a group of roughly 20 musicians with a schedule that goes more to 12 weeks than 44, does well with a staff of 3, so let's say that with a four times larger schedule and 4 times the number of musicians, the staff might have to be expanded to 20, and let's give them the same average salary as the musicians. That comes to another $800,000. Say further that the conductor(s) earn three times as much as the musicians...another $120,000 (And in the case of 90% of the conductors w/whom I've worked, a GROSS overpayment.) I don't know if the Colorado Symphony has a building they call their own, but let's discount that for now...a good hall will pay for itself if used intelligently. Now we've spent $4,120,000. Let's generously say that I neglected some expenses...advertising, empl0yee benefits, maybe a slightly larger staff, more money for conductors...and bring total expenditures up to $5,000,000. In fact, lets spend another $500,000 on guest artists while we're at it. (And again, these guest artists SHOULD generate enough revenue to pay for themselves.) This leaves THREE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS unaccounted for. The only legitimate ways that money could POSSIBLY be spent for which I have not accounted that I can see might be insurance and lawyers...and that's a LOT of insurance and lawyers' fees. Where the hell does this money go, and why aren't the musicians getting any of it? If anyone on this list has a real insight into the infrastructure needed to keep an enterprise of this size running and can in some way correct my rough estimates, please do so, but I think I'm not off by that much. In fact, I've probably OVERestimated a number of ancillary expenses. So I ask again...WHY AREN'T THE MUSICIANS BEING PAID MORE ??? My answer...because they haven't DEMANDED it. Musicians are in the same boat as pro athletes were in the '50s. SOMEONE'S making HUGE amounts of money off the work of musicians who are being grossly underpaid because of their joy and passion for their work. The unions are by and large either incompetent and/or corrupt...it's got to be one or the other, because they're certainly not getting the job done...and musicians impotently trudge along, tacitly agreeing that what they do is only worth the pay of an unsuccessful small town plumber or a junior secretary in a successful financial firm. If a business, charitable organization or university, for example were to waste money on this level...of course, it's not WASTED exactly, it's just not going to the producers of the product...they'd be closed down in a minute. We're talking about roughly THIRTY PERCENT of the money disappearing into thin air here !!! This is wastage (dare I call it theft???) on the level of the most corrupt city governments. I'll bet even the most inefficient bureaucracy I know of...the NYC School System...can't match that level of waste. Again, if anyone can correct my figures, I'd be glad to hear it, but even if I'm off by $1,500,000 that leaves TWO MILLION unaccounted for. That would come to about $24,400 per musician, if distributed correctly. Where's the beef ??? And when are we going to do something about it ? This problem exists on EVERY level of the music business...orchestras, shows, recording, clubs, club dates... I did a club date recently ( I don't do many of them, but this one paid particularly well, or so I thought.) where someone told me the amount the immensely wealthy party givers had spent on the floral arrangements, and I did some elementary math and figured out that I was being paid about the same amount it cost for them to buy one hanging pot of petunias. DAMN !!! Who's taking all this money ??? And why aren't we getting more of it ??? Later... S. ============================== From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:38 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:48:14 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <200002031848.LAA18416@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: mick007@ucla.edu trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from mick007@ucla.edu 02/03/00 10:29am -0800 > To everyone, I know this sounds absolutely absurd but it has been bothering > me tremendously over the last few days. The other night in rehearsal a > colleague of mine told me he felt dumb. I asked what he was talking about > and he told me about an article he had read in the Orange County Register > (I'm not familiar with it but I assume it is as respectable a paper as the > county of Orange County could have) giving the details of some study that > indicated a lowering of intelligence in trombone players, specifically > those who used circular breathing. He said it had something to do with the > amount of pressure placed on the head while playing. Consider the source ... dig up the citation and I'll be happy to critique the study protocol. It's so nice to have useful skills ... If trombonists have the problem, it should also be present in Australian aborigines and other didjeridoo players, in tuba and contrabassoon players, and in free divers. Not to mention Mr Gorelick ... Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:38 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:12:16 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <200002031913.OAA16978@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:29 AM 2/3/00 -0800, you wrote: >To everyone, I know this sounds absolutely absurd but it has been bothering >me tremendously over the last few days. The other night in rehearsal a >colleague of mine told me he felt dumb. I asked what he was talking about >and he told me about an article he had read in the Orange County Register >(I'm not familiar with it but I assume it is as respectable a paper as the >county of Orange County could have) giving the details of some study that >indicated a lowering of intelligence in trombone players, specifically >those who used circular breathing. He said it had something to do with the >amount of pressure placed on the head while playing. ======================== What bull !!! Show me the article. S. P.S Everyone knows you've got to be dumb just to THINK about playing this instrument well in the first place !!! We can't AFFORD to lose any more brain cells. ========================= > >What I am wondering is if anyone else has read this article or heard >anything remotely pertaining to this? Or is this just fluff? As >ridiculous as this sounds this post really isn't a joke, I'm actually >concerned. I wonder if maybe it had something to do with a prolonged lack >of oxygen or normal respiration that might occur if one was circular >breathing and has very little to do with the typical, controlled playing of >the trombone. I know some people would do things like hold their trombones >against a wall and have people push them to hit high notes or blowing so >hard that they pass out, I could see this causing problems, but just >regular trombone playing? > >Opinions everyone? > >Mick > From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:39 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:23:12 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >======================== > > What bull !!! > > Show me the article. > > S. > > P.S Everyone knows you've got to be dumb just to THINK about playing >this instrument well in the first place !!! > > We can't AFFORD to lose any more brain cells. > >========================= I'm down to two, and one is waving "bye-bye" to the other......just ask my wife. ;-) Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com Visit The Mouthpiece Exchange at http://www.waageworks.com _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:40 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:58:02 -0600 From: "Berggren, Erik" To: "'Trombone-L'" Subject: RE: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <69B69101614FD3119D9F00104B9883E70E8E24@bkxchusr01.bk.state.ks.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain That really concerns me too, because I'm not even smart enough to achieve circular breathing. Seems like that makes me dumber than dumb. Could someone help me get smarter in that respect? Truly! -----Original Message----- From: mick007@ucla.edu [SMTP:mick007@ucla.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 12:29 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? To everyone, I know this sounds absolutely absurd but it has been bothering me tremendously over the last few days. The other night in rehearsal a colleague of mine told me he felt dumb. I asked what he was talking about and he told me about an article he had read in the Orange County Register (I'm not familiar with it but I assume it is as respectable a paper as the county of Orange County could have) giving the details of some study that indicated a lowering of intelligence in trombone players, specifically those who used circular breathing. He said it had something to do with the amount of pressure placed on the head while playing. What I am wondering is if anyone else has read this article or heard anything remotely pertaining to this? Or is this just fluff? As ridiculous as this sounds this post really isn't a joke, I'm actually concerned. I wonder if maybe it had something to do with a prolonged lack of oxygen or normal respiration that might occur if one was circular breathing and has very little to do with the typical, controlled playing of the trombone. I know some people would do things like hold their trombones against a wall and have people push them to hit high notes or blowing so hard that they pass out, I could see this causing problems, but just regular trombone playing? Opinions everyone? Mick From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:40 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:10:26 -0800 From: "MARK LEWIS" To: Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <0002039496.AA949608378@ccgate.songs.sce.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" Supply and demand, Sam. You said it yourself: you played for the price of a pot of petunias. Had you turned the job down, any doubt they could have found a monster N.Y. bonist to cover, if even for less? Most of the folks I play with gladly rehearse and perform for free. Give em an audience, and they will drive hours to put on a show. Many fine, fine players making quality entertainment for the joy of it. So... It is almost axiomatic: If it is sort of fun, popular, and relatively readily done by many (beginning as early as elementary school), it won't pay well. Ask any lifeguard, P.E. teacher, or forest ranger. That is life. Mark =========================== At 11:46 PM 2/2/00 -0800, you wrote: >I noticed an interesting article in today's Rocky Mountain News about >the newly negotiated 5 year collective bargaining agreement between >the Colorado Symphony Association and the musicians. > >The season is being expanded to 44 weeks, and the agreement >(retroactive to Sep. 1, 1999) specifies a base salary of $818/week. >This comes out to $35,992/year. Remember of course that there are >other sources of income for musicians, and this is the minimum rate. > >The article states that the contract was designed to match contracts >at orchestras with slightly higher annual budgets (such as the >Milwaukee Symphony). The CSO currently has a budget of $9 >million/year. >The orchestra will also expand from 79 to 82 players, which is fine by >me. > ================================= Let's see here... 82 players, let's just say the average salary comes to more like $40,000/year including the principal players...that means that out of NINE MILLION dollars, the actual musicians are being paid are being paid $3,280,000. And where does the other FIVE MILLION,SEVEN HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND dollars go ? I'm sure there has to be a substantial staff to administrate a symphony of this size. The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, a group of roughly 20 musicians with a schedule that goes more to 12 weeks than 44, does well with a staff of 3, so let's say that with a four times larger schedule and 4 times the number of musicians, the staff might have to be expanded to 20, and let's give them the same average salary as the musicians. That comes to another $800,000. Say further that the conductor(s) earn three times as much as the musicians...another $120,000 (And in the case of 90% of the conductors w/whom I've worked, a GROSS overpayment.) I don't know if the Colorado Symphony has a building they call their own, but let's discount that for now...a good hall will pay for itself if used intelligently. Now we've spent $4,120,000. Let's generously say that I neglected some expenses...advertising, empl0yee benefits, maybe a slightly larger staff, more money for conductors...and bring total expenditures up to $5,000,000. In fact, lets spend another $500,000 on guest artists while we're at it. (And again, these guest artists SHOULD generate enough revenue to pay for themselves.) This leaves THREE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS unaccounted for. The only legitimate ways that money could POSSIBLY be spent for which I have not accounted that I can see might be insurance and lawyers...and that's a LOT of insurance and lawyers' fees. Where the hell does this money go, and why aren't the musicians getting any of it? If anyone on this list has a real insight into the infrastructure needed to keep an enterprise of this size running and can in some way correct my rough estimates, please do so, but I think I'm not off by that much. In fact, I've probably OVERestimated a number of ancillary expenses. So I ask again...WHY AREN'T THE MUSICIANS BEING PAID MORE ??? My answer...because they haven't DEMANDED it. Musicians are in the same boat as pro athletes were in the '50s. SOMEONE'S making HUGE amounts of money off the work of musicians who are being grossly underpaid because of their joy and passion for their work. The unions are by and large either incompetent and/or corrupt...it's got to be one or the other, because they're certainly not getting the job done...and musicians impotently trudge along, tacitly agreeing that what they do is only worth the pay of an unsuccessful small town plumber or a junior secretary in a successful financial firm. If a business, charitable organization or university, for example were to waste money on this level...of course, it's not WASTED exactly, it's just not going to the producers of the product...they'd be closed down in a minute. We're talking about roughly THIRTY PERCENT of the money disappearing into thin air here !!! This is wastage (dare I call it theft???) on the level of the most corrupt city governments. I'll bet even the most inefficient bureaucracy I know of...the NYC School System...can't match that level of waste. Again, if anyone can correct my figures, I'd be glad to hear it, but even if I'm off by $1,500,000 that leaves TWO MILLION unaccounted for. That would come to about $24,400 per musician, if distributed correctly. Where's the beef ??? And when are we going to do something about it ? This problem exists on EVERY level of the music business...orchestras, shows, recording, clubs, club dates... I did a club date recently ( I don't do many of them, but this one paid particularly well, or so I thought.) where someone told me the amount the immensely wealthy party givers had spent on the floral arrangements, and I did some elementary math and figured out that I was being paid about the same amount it cost for them to buy one hanging pot of petunias. DAMN !!! Who's taking all this money ??? And why aren't we getting more of it ??? Later... S. ============================== From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:44 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:16:55 -0600 From: PAUL LUKAS To: basstbn@waageworks.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <3899E237.855E6769@bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what it's worth, I have several framed images of my brain on my living room wall. These were made over several years at different hospitals by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), primarily to diagnose multiple sclerosis. There are three reasons why I keep these images: 1. They are incontrovertible evidence that there is a brain inside my skull. 2. They are proof that my brain fills the entire cranium and that it doesn't rattle around like a pea, contrary to what some people contend. 3. They clearly show that the placque structures on the surface of the brain are caused by multiple sclerosis, NOT trombone playing. True story. And, if you have ever had an MRI scan made, you can obtain the image and prove these things to thers yourself. Paul:Memphis From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:44 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:23:17 EST From: MBennetts@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 02/03/00 12:47:43 PM Central Standard Time, sabutin@mindspring.com writes: > This leaves THREE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS unaccounted > for. I've found another $2.1 million or so, and don't know enough about the real estate to know how much to add for that. The $2.1 million consists of what might be called "payroll related" items - payroll taxes, medical and other employee insurance, and pension or retirement contribution. The payroll number you calculated totals $4.2 million: $3,280,000 for musicians, $800,000 for staff, and $120,000 for a director. Payroll taxes would add about 10% to that number, or $420,000. (Employer's share of Social Security tax is 7.65%, just like the employee's share. Add to that another 2 to 2-1/2% for state and federal unemployment taxes, and you're at 10%. Family medical coverage costs $6 to $8,000 per year per employee nowadays. For 100 employees, call it $700,000. Finally, I assume that musicians at this level are being taken care of reasonably well for pension or other retirement contributions. This could easily cost an additional $10,000 annually per employee, or $1 million. As to a building "paying for itself", that might or might not be true - I don't know about the day-to-day economics of office, rehearsal and performance space for a symphony orchestra. But I do know that, if it "pays for itself" it's by means of some portion of the $9 million of revenues being used to pay for the building costs. In other words, it's another call on the $9 million. Hope that's of some value. Mike Bennett --------------- "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this instrument can make God's voice heard". 16th Century Bishop of VŠsterŒs, Sweden From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:44 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:28:56 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mick, I think that whoever wrote the original article was practicing circular breathing, only they were breathing from an orifice intended for other purposes. From what I have seen of most low brass players, the only thing that destroys their brain cells is massive infusion of brewed and distilled grains. Those that do not partake of these activities are usually rather normal, except for the tendency to drool occasionally, particularly at the sight of large coils of tubing. Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: mick007@ucla.edu [SMTP:mick007@ucla.edu] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 12:29 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? > > To everyone, I know this sounds absolutely absurd but it has been > bothering > me tremendously over the last few days. The other night in rehearsal a > colleague of mine told me he felt dumb. I asked what he was talking about > and he told me about an article he had read in the Orange County Register > (I'm not familiar with it but I assume it is as respectable a paper as the > county of Orange County could have) giving the details of some study that > indicated a lowering of intelligence in trombone players, specifically > those who used circular breathing. He said it had something to do with > the > amount of pressure placed on the head while playing. > > What I am wondering is if anyone else has read this article or heard > anything remotely pertaining to this? Or is this just fluff? As > ridiculous as this sounds this post really isn't a joke, I'm actually > concerned. I wonder if maybe it had something to do with a prolonged lack > of oxygen or normal respiration that might occur if one was circular > breathing and has very little to do with the typical, controlled playing > of > the trombone. I know some people would do things like hold their > trombones > against a wall and have people push them to hit high notes or blowing so > hard that they pass out, I could see this causing problems, but just > regular trombone playing? > > Opinions everyone? > > Mick From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:44 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:28:59 EST From: MBennetts@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My Remington Warmups finally arrived in the mail. After reading a few pages I realize already I'm in trouble with one of Mr. Remington's 4 major elements of trombone playing: tonguing technique. He says the tongue should make contact "behind" the top teeth. Without giving you all cause for hysterical laughter, suffice it to say that I haven't been doing it that way. To properly get to work on corrective measures, I'd like to hear your definition of "behind". Does Mr. Remington (and you and your teachers) mean that the tongue contacts the gum without touching the front teeth, or that is some contact with the teeth is acceptable? Mike Bennett --------------- "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this instrument can make God's voice heard". 16th Century Bishop of VŠsterŒs, Sweden From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:44 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:34:13 EST From: Opieman3@aol.com To: MBennetts@aol.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: New on list. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello. My name is Dave Hart. I live in Pittsburgh, PA. I am a senior at Brashear High School and I play the trombone. I love music and I have an audition for Clarion University on Febuary 11th. Thanks. P.S. If anyone has some advice please E-mail me at OPIEMAN3@aol.com. Dave Hart From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:44 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:47:49 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike Bennett wrote: > He [Remington] says the tongue should make contact "behind" the top > teeth. Without > giving you all cause for hysterical laughter, suffice it to say that I > haven't been doing it that way. To properly get to work on corrective > measures, I'd like to hear your definition of "behind". Does Mr. > Remington > (and you and your teachers) mean that the tongue contacts the gum without > touching the front teeth, or that is some contact with the teeth is > acceptable? > Well, here's what "behind" does NOT mean: I once heard a teacher explaining to a room full of youngsters that the way to tongue a brass instrument is to pretend that you are spitting a seed off the end of your tongue! The only way to do that is to place your tongue BETWEEN your teeth and pull it backwards. That's a good way to get rid of an unwanted seed and a lousy way to play trombone. Think of how much motion is required! Think of the distance that the entire tongue must travel. If the tongue starts "behind" the top teeth instead of between the top and bottom teeth, then it is only necessary to move the tip of the tongue up and down to interrupt the flow of air--much more efficient. Whether the tongue touches the back of the teeth or the gums depends on what register you're playing in. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:45 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:18:51 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <20000203211851.91299.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It sounds like a discussion for those that have more brain cells than they know what to do with. I read the ćscientificä paper that proposed the idea and was singularly underwhelmed. Thank God it was a British group, so MY tax dollars didnāt pay for such rubbish. Their assumption was that since sax players tend to circular breath and since sax players Ītend to be of lower intelligenceā, therefore... That they would believe their own ćfindingsä is a wonderment, in and of itself. It reminded me of the ćresearchä that concluded that plants prefer Beethoven to rock. I can guarantee all of you that those people that took such flimsy evidence and hacked it into something convincing, are the stupid ones. As for brain cells, I do believe that thereās a price to pay for going through life on a limited amount of oxygen. I would say that Kenny G. might have lost a few brain cells, playing one continuous note for 45 minutes. My personal feeling is that Mr. G. had little to loose, but I only know of him through his ćmusicä. On the other hand, going without taking a breath or taking only shallow breaths, for short periods of time may induce drowsiness, but thatās about all. I worry a lot more about being in buildings that seems to be stuffy and lacking of oxygen. But they only put me to sleep. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:47 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:29:40 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002032130.OAA219658@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: MBennetts@aol.com trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from MBennetts@aol.com 02/03/00 3:23pm EST > Finally, I > assume that musicians at this level are being taken care of reasonably well > for pension or other retirement contributions. This could easily cost an > additional $10,000 annually per employee, or $1 million. Pension contributions (usually to the AFM account?) are specified in the contracts. I don't recall what the AFM requires. In higher ed it's typically 10% of the salary split equally between employee and employer. So that's 5% of the payroll, or about $230,000. As usual, people are the most expensive resource in the enterprise. As far as facilities use, here at Six-Gun State University they $60,000 (or more, depending on what you're planning to do) per night for the use of the fieldhouse, and it's fully subscribed. My guess is that the fee in Denver is higher. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:47 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:45:08 EST From: MBennetts@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 02/03/00 2:51:55 PM Central Standard Time, 8guion@jmls.edu writes: > Well, here's what "behind" does NOT mean: I once heard a teacher explaining > to a room full of youngsters that the way to tongue a brass instrument is to > pretend that you are spitting a seed off the end of your tongue! The only > way to do that is to place your tongue BETWEEN your teeth and pull it > backwards. That's a good way to get rid of an unwanted seed and a lousy way > to play trombone. Think of how much motion is required! Here I tried to save you all from falling down and hurting yourselves laughing, and David comes along and spoils it by eavesdropping on my trombone lessons forty years ago. That's exactly what old Don Butz taught me. But how did David know to eavesdrop, and how did he remember for forty years while waiting for me to s*bscribe to this list? Mike Bennett --------------- "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this instrument can make God's voice heard". 16th Century Bishop of VŠsterŒs, Sweden From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:47 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:53:44 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: lewismm@songs.sce.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002032157.QAA14731@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:10 PM 2/3/00 -0800, you wrote: > > Supply and demand, Sam. You said it yourself: you played for the price of a > pot of petunias. Had you turned the job down, any doubt they could have found > a monster N.Y. bonist to cover, if even for less? > > Most of the folks I play with gladly rehearse and perform for free. Give em > an audience, and they will drive hours to put on a show. Many fine, fine > players making quality entertainment for the joy of it. So... > > It is almost axiomatic: If it is sort of fun, popular, and relatively readily > done by many (beginning as early as elementary school), it won't pay well. > Ask any lifeguard, P.E. teacher, or forest ranger. That is life. > > Mark > ================= Well..yes and no... Playing at a professional level, be it orchestral or free lance, is NOT " relatively readily done by many (beginning as early as elementary school)"...in fact, it is relatively readily NOT done very well even by many people who have jobs in those fields. Supply and demand is not the problem here, even though there are certainly more qualified players than there are jobs. The DEMAND part of this equation is the audience...and a 9 million dollar budget speaks of one HELL of an audience, even if it IS supplemented by grant monies. The SUPPLY part is the Denver Orchestra as it exists...and a 42 week season means that it supplies music for the demand of its audience over 42 weeks/year. Supply and demand might work as far as ticket prices are concerned...if there was as large an audience as there is now, but the season was only 12 weeks long, ticket prices would skyrocket; and if there was less audience and a longer season, ticket prices would drop. The missing money is, I'll guarantee, either wasted on unneccessary and/or boondoggling staff...I know people who work in Lincoln Center, for example, and they can get away w/ANYTHING...it is being wasted by an inefficient and bloated administration, which more than likely has a Post Office kind of mentality (as in "Why use a bus when we can put a limo on the tab? It's all on the cultural check, ain't it?") or it is being outright stolen by people in upper management, in the form of inflated salaries and benefits. Sure we'll make music for free...in fact, it has appeared to me throughout my career that the REAL stuff almost NEVER happens when big money appears. However, when we ARE in the employ of big money...and 9 million is a good taste...we ought to be paid commensurately. Later... S. From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:48 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:22:29 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'Trombone-L'" Subject: Ron Wilken's New CD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Some of you on the List had been asking about Ron Wilken's new CD. I spoke to Ron last night and he told me the current release date is 13 March 2000. If you would like to order one, he will be listed with http://www.theorchard.com after the release date. Rick Marple San Antonio TX From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:48 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:09:06 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: It Depends What the Meaning of "Behind" Is Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000203150906.00822300@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 04:45 PM 2/3/00 EST, MBennetts@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 02/03/00 2:51:55 PM Central Standard Time, 8guion@jmls.edu >writes: > >> Well, here's what "behind" does NOT mean: I once heard a teacher explaining >> to a room full of youngsters that the way to tongue a brass instrument is >to >> pretend that you are spitting a seed off the end of your tongue! The only >> way to do that is to place your tongue BETWEEN your teeth and pull it >> backwards. That's a good way to get rid of an unwanted seed and a lousy way >> to play trombone. Think of how much motion is required! Am I correct in seeming to remember that the Arban's book says this? Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:48 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:59:30 -0600 From: longtones@mindspring.com To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Ron Wilken's New CD Message-ID: <000001bf6e9a$53f75400$83cc8ad1@c.moodie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And just for the record, it's Wilkins... with an I. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Marple, Richard > L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 4:22 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Ron Wilken's New CD > > > Some of you on the List had been asking about Ron Wilken's new > CD. I spoke > to Ron last night and he told me the current release date is > 13 March 2000. If you would like to order one, he will be listed with > http://www.theorchard.com after the release date. > > Rick Marple > San Antonio TX > From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:53 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:00:53 -0600 From: "Daniel P. Sniderman" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Fw: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <024c01bf6e9a$97cd5b20$6911e3d8@dsl.telocity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Circular Breathing Lowers Intelligence? Man that invites so many easy Kenny G jokes - I'd be embarrassed to even make one... Dan Sniderman From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:53 2000 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:15:55 +0900 From: Joseph Green To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Degrading CD's Message-ID: <389A0C2B.4793@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Coyle wrote: > > Joseph, > > The NPR page from which you copied the list of effected CDs does not > include DGG, IMP, or Decca. Where did you read that these labels too were > effected? The Hyperion website. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/bronzed.html Joe From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:53 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:36:51 -0500 (EST) From: Ralph L Holloway To: mick007@ucla.edu Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gee, thanks for mentioning this ,er, study. I was wondering what possessed me to go out and buy a King 3B valve trombone a couple weeks, and now I understand why I have tried yet once again after playing trombone for 10 months the Bach cello pieces... I only hope there is still time left to learn the alto clef...Of course there is something curious about those people willing to put plumbing up against their mouths... Ralph L. Holloway Dept. Anthropology Columbia University NY, NY 10027 212-854-4570 Fax= 212-854-7347 From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:54 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:40:48 -0800 From: "Dean Hubbard" To: Cc: "JJ Johnson-List" Subject: Looking for Rob Stoneback Message-ID: <017501bf6ea0$1eee0000$6abf183f@default> Friends, I'm looking to get in contact with Pennsylvania based trombone legend, ROB STONEBACK. Please respond to me off the List. Thank you, Dean Hubbard Bonedean@msn.com From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:54 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:11:26 -0500 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <200002040009.TAA29461@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_6429617==_.ALT" Are we dumb?  Indubitably.

Our muse is a rapacious and exacting creditor, morally, spiritually and physically.  However, I seriously doubt that I have suffered even minimal frontal lobe damage as a result of, and in spite of, subjecting myself to the cruel and unusual punishment that IS the trombone.  Why do we do it?  Because we must!  Playing the trombone is a calling, not a choice.

Evolution is relentlessly opportunistic.  ;-)

Signed,
Outraged in Minneapolis (actually in Boca Raton right now, but ya know where my heart is)

PS - that article is absurd.  Everyone knows that the trombones are the brains of the brass section, the trumpets are the brawn, the horns have delusions of grandeur "but I think you'll be amused by their presumption," and the tuba player brings the beer.


At 01:29 PM 2/3/00 , you wrote:
>To everyone, I know this sounds absolutely absurd but it has been bothering
>me tremendously over the last few days.  The other night in rehearsal a
>colleague of mine told me he felt dumb.  I asked what he was talking about
>and he told me about an article he had read in the Orange County Register
>(I'm not familiar with it but I assume it is as respectable a paper as the
>county of Orange County could have) giving the details of some study that
>indicated a lowering of intelligence in trombone players, specifically
>those who used circular breathing.  He said it had something to do with the
>amount of pressure placed on the head while playing. 
>
>What I am wondering is if anyone else has read this article or heard
>anything remotely pertaining to this?  Or is this just fluff?  As
>ridiculous as this sounds this post really isn't a joke, I'm actually
>concerned.  I wonder if maybe it had something to do with a prolonged lack
>of oxygen or normal respiration that might occur if one was circular
>breathing and has very little to do with the typical, controlled playing of
>the trombone.  I know some people would do things like hold their trombones
>against a wall and have people push them to hit high notes or blowing so
>hard that they pass out, I could see this causing problems, but just
>regular trombone playing?
>
>Opinions everyone?
>
>Mick
> From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:11:24 -0700 (MST) From: James Scott To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Trombone playing and brain cells Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well I'm pretty sure that trombone playing doesn't effect intelligence (although you could probably make a case that some not-too bright folks are attracted to it!), but someone needs to do a study on what conducting does to the brain! There's just too much anecdotal evidence that it creates complete morons all over the world! Jim Scott Calgary Philharmonic From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:23:27 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombone-l" Subject: Christian Lindberg Mouthpiece Message-ID: <000301bf6ea6$11e7e5a0$be320923@becks.cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where I can find the specs for Lindberg mouthpieces? Specifically the cup and throat diameter for a 4CL? Thanks in advance, Steve From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:26:47 -0600 From: daboneman Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Ron Wilken's New CD Message-ID: <389A1CC7.D558CDB7@mciworld.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello all: My computer messed up and I lost all of my safed messages (as well as my internet service)... There was one message in particular that I lost. Who is the person on the list that was going to trade an Elliott H8 shank for my H9C? Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:16:31 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: astro@pconline.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <200002040118.UAA14786@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 07:11 PM 2/3/00 -0500, you wrote: > > Are we dumb?Ź Indubitably. > > Our muse is a rapacious and exacting creditor, morally, spiritually and > physically.Ź However, I seriously doubt that I have suffered even minimal > frontal lobe damage as a result of, and in spite of, subjecting myself to the > cruel and unusual punishment that IS the trombone.Ź Why do we do it?Ź Because > we must!Ź Playing the trombone is a calling, not a choice. > > =================== re: "Playing the trombone is a calling, not a choice." I KNOW it's a "calling"...but why does it always have to be a collect call? S. From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:24:44 -0800 From: "Gary Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <001101bf6eae$9f87b860$7100a5d1@maxwells> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? > > > re: "Playing the trombone is a calling, not a choice." Sabutin wrote back: > I KNOW it's a "calling"...but why does it always have to be a collect call? And why is it that every time I answer the call, NO ONE is on the other end! Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:45:36 EST From: NHSGrizzly16@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <31.c2e07e.25cb8940@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit that's crazy.....statistics show that most musicians are smarter than people who don't play an instrument. in fact, most of the "brains" at my school and other areas in the state are musicians. SAT and ACT scores are higher among the musicians. as far as circular breathing goes, it's just another technique that takes time to learn. just like learning an instrument....you don't do it right off.....it's like learning math....science.....grammar....it all takes time. i don't think you should worry about it. Kristina From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 22:30:35 -0600 From: "Robert Holland" To: "Trb. List" Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002040338.3937600@mail.chicagonet.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sabutin wrote: > 82 players, let's just say the average salary comes to more like > $40,000/year including the principal players...that means that out of NINE > MILLION dollars, the actual musicians are being paid are being paid > $3,280,000. > > And where does the other FIVE MILLION,SEVEN HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND > dollars go ? I think your statistical reduction is pretty extreme. There must be ways of obtaining public information regarding orchestra budgets. No doubt there's plenty of room for bloat in the belly of the beast. But I can think of a lot of things beyond standing musicians' personnel costs that would contribute to the costs of running a symphony orchestra. There are stage personnel, librarians, soloists, substitutes and extras, and guest conductors to consider, not all of whom earn scale. Those off-site outreach concerts often require transportation for personnel and equipment, sometime even portable stages. The cost of instruments, namely percussion, string basses, perhaps even a harp and a strad for the concertmaster. There's the cost of printing programs (lots of 'em), promotion and marketing, music rental and royalties. Prudent financial planning might also include socking some away for the endowment in anticipation of future shortfalls. And let's not forget the cost of those lawyers for the inevitable labor disputes. Maybe some of those things could put a dent in that $5,720,000. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/briar.htm From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:02:46 -0500 From: "John Lavoie" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Another Sauer Masterclass Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We've all heard that these masterclasses are primarily Conn focused. Well he just gave a masterclass here at Ithaca tonight. It was just like any other masterclass. There just happened to be a bunch of Conn CL's there for us to try out. That said, there were a few people who absolutely fell in love with them. My good friend Chris is now vigorously searching the web for the best deal on an 88HT-CL. If anyone knows were to get a good deal on one, let me know. JOhn John Lavoie Sophomore, Ithaca College http://members.tripod.com/Trombone8vb http://members.tripod.com/Trombone8vb. I appologize for the following ad. ___________________________________________________________ Get your own Web-Based E-mail Service at http://www.zzn.com From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:56 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:17:49 -0500 From: Charles To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: good question (feel free to forward my response) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000204041749.00699220@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Return-Path: >From: DLevine487@aol.com >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:32:31 EST >Subject: good question (feel free to forward my response) >To: chardy@totcon.com > > > Who's taking all this money ??? > > > > And why aren't we getting more of it ??? > > > > Later... > > > > S. >> > >That's a very heartfelt question and rant, and I don't disagree completely. >WE all know musicians tend to be underpaid when compared to often illiterate >athletes, for instance, however, Sam fails to acknowledge a couple of harsh >realities. >One: WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR. As it is, most orchestras are highly >supported by funding from corporations, foundations, and individual >philanthropists. Salaries and expenses could not be paid only by ticket and >recording sales. This also partially explains why the "classics" are played >over and over again. Most of the individual donors are older and not usually >into hearing or funding works of new composers. >Two: The average individual has no idea of the real costs of running a >corporation. The costs of health care, pension, workman's comp, etc. are not >even mentioned by Sam, nor is the the true expense of the "hall" and all the >taxes, maintenance Sam mentioned the Smithsonian Jazz Orchestra's "Staff of >3". All those ticket-takers, ushers, electricians, stage managers, the guy >who shovels the snow in front of the hall.... they ALL draw a salary... and >benefits et al. It's not just the "administration" that gets paid. >Dan and Charles > > From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:57 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:18:00 -0500 From: Charles To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000204041800.006decd8@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Return-Path: >Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:16:31 -0500 >Reply-To: sabutin@mindspring.com >Sender: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu >From: sabutin@mindspring.com >To: "Trombones and related issues forum." >Subject: Re: Playing trombone lowers intelligence? >References: <3.0.6.32.20000203102917.01846660@pop.ben2.ucla.edu> >X-To: astro@pconline.com >X-Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu >X-Sender: sabutin@pop.mindspring.com >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by po.missouri.edu id TAA10289 >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >At 07:11 PM 2/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >> >> Are we dumb?Ź Indubitably. >> >> Our muse is a rapacious and exacting creditor, morally, spiritually and >> physically.Ź However, I seriously doubt that I have suffered even minimal >> frontal lobe damage as a result of, and in spite of, subjecting myself to >the >> cruel and unusual punishment that IS the trombone.Ź Why do we do it?Ź >Because >> we must!Ź Playing the trombone is a calling, not a choice. > > >> >> =================== > > > re: "Playing the trombone is a calling, not a choice." > > > I KNOW it's a "calling"...but why does it always have to be a collect call? > > S. > > >WE'RE IN TROUBLE!.......WE NOW HAVE SABUTIN ............AND ADRIAN. > Charlie > > > > > > From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:57 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:46:10 -0800 From: Randy Fendrick To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Playing Trombone Message-ID: <389A679F.398662C6@accelnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding the article in the Orange County Register: Wasn't Orange County the intellectual home of Richard Nixon. Kind of explains the article, doesn't it! Cheers Randy Fendrick Southside Chicago Seven Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra > From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:57 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:48:27 EST From: Matmutt@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: New Valve (was trigger(s) for middle and upper register) Message-ID: <3b.9bc23d.25cbc22b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/3/00 4:47:57 AM EST, chardy@totcon.com writes: << What are your feelings and opinions for using the trigger(s) (in moving passages) for notes in middle and upper registers? >> Dude, you read my MIND! I've been working on a bell section with an additional gooseneck right behind the slide receiver curving up to the bell. A trigger activates two valves simultaneously ( at either end) opening the "shortcut" gooseneck and cutting off the normal flow through the tuning slide. This shortens the tube length by almost 32% ! The resultant tone produced is a fifth higher than would be produced by the same embouchure tension through the full tube length. Your Willson Bass becomes an instant alto horn! And consider the jazz implications. You'll be screaming out those high F's with this modification, Charlie. That's IF you're practicing. Heh Heh Heh . Of course this hand crafted modification is available only through me and the wait is at least four to six weeks ( really a year or two but I regularly lie about it). Please send $2,500 as a non refundable deposit and then sweat while you try to contact me to no avail. The final cost? Come on Charlie, you shouldn't ask such questions of a CRAFTSMAN! Larry Priori ( the passionate amateur) From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:57 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:36:54 -0600 From: Angie Brunk To: jfend@accelnet.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Playing Trombone Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think the whole thing can be explained by the veiws of the wonks who try to quantify intelligence. I remember taking a "vocational aptitude" test in high school that produced some rather interesting results. I knew it didn't actually count for anything, so I didn't bother with a special edition for the visually impaired. I had indicated an interest in music and law as possible career fields. (I was thinking of a degree in music ed at the time.) According to the wonks who wrote the thing, I did not have the intelligence necessary to attend college. (They didn't think I possesed even a lawyer's portion of brain cells!) However, I was smart enough to be a musician. Hmmm, aparently, some wonks don't believe musicians are all that bright to begin with. Angie Brunk MLS Indiana University School of Library and Information Science 1999 "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever."--Clarence Darrow From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:57 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 04:47:55 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: New Valve (was trigger(s) for middle and upper register) Message-ID: <008101bf6ef4$ee25e640$3b300923@becks.cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matmutt@aol.comOf course this hand crafted >modification is available only through me and the wait is at least four to six weeks ( really a year or two but I regularly lie about it). Please send >$2,500 as a non refundable deposit and then sweat while you try to contact me to no avail. The final cost? Come on Charlie, you shouldn't ask such questions of a CRAFTSMAN! Say, didn't you used to work for Edwards and them move to . . . Nah, it couldn't be :-) Larry, I think you nailed the other thread pretty good. -Steve From ???@??? Fri Feb 04 07:52:57 2000 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 06:54:50 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Yamaha Trigger Problem Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" My apologies if this is a repeat, but it didn't seem to go through the first time. ============ At 8:54 AM -0500 2/3/2000, BrianB@PR-CN.COM wrote: >Hi folks. Being as we were short a bass trombone in our group, our director >has lent us his very seldom used Yamaha dependent rotor bass (a 612, >maybe?). Its in great shape, but it has always had one flaw and he says he >hasn't played it enough to get it fixed. > >I tried this and its really annoying. The second (finger) trigger hits the >slide joint screw ring (I don't know what its actually called. Its the ring >that holds the valve and slide sections together.) when activated. Yamahas don't have strings on the rotors, so the solution is to unscrew the little ball joint from the second valve itself and then turn the ball joint 1 or 2 complete rotations counterclockwise. This will have the effect of shortening the length of the lever on the opposite side of the fulcrum from your finger and you will find the lever is then proportionally further away from the receiver screw. It'll take you 5 minutes, no professional help necessary. You'll get the hang of it. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * **********************************************