TROMBONE-L Digest 1557 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: tuning stuff by BassBonist@aol.com 2) Re: END OF YEAR ISSUES by Mike Coyle 3) Re: New Member and Other Stuff by Jimmy Durchslag 4) Enjoy the New Year by Larry & Carol Bronisz 5) Re: now, now Adrian by sackbutt 6) Re: Sharp F Above the Staff?! by David Buckley 7) Re: REMINDER - LIST SHUTDOWN by "Gary Maxwell" 8) Re: REMINDER - LIST SHUTDOWN by Earl Needham 9) re. LIST OUTAGE by Listmonitor Trombone-L 10) Re: [TPIN] TPIN Cryogenic testing update and Thanks to TPIN by BRASSRX@aol.com 11) Ringing the bell (was Re: tuning stuff..) by David Leep 12) Re: tuning stuff, Y2K, food... by sabutin@mindspring.com 13) Trombone recommendations by kingbone@earthlink.net 14) Antique Mouthpiece by "Steve Beck" 15) Re: Trombone recommendations by sabutin@mindspring.com 16) Re: re. LIST OUTAGE by Earl Needham 17) Wanted-Conn bass parts by BassBonist@aol.com 18) Re: tuning stuff by "Aaron Roth" 19) Re: Effects of mouthpiece by "Aaron Roth" 20) Re: tuning stuff by "Ellard" 21) Re: tuning stuff by "Kenneth Dowdy" 22) Re: END OF YEAR ISSUES by "Adrian Drover" 23) Re: tuning stuff by "Ellard" 24) Re: Effects of mouthpiece by "Kenneth Dowdy" 25) Re: Effects of mouthpiece by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 26) Re: Effects of mouthpiece by "Aaron Roth" 27) Re: Effects of mouthpiece by "Kenneth Dowdy" 28) Student Help by Athena1182@aol.com 29) Re: tuning stuff by "Adrian Drover" From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:03:45 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: tuning stuff Message-ID: <0.53d43a65.259e4a01@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << From: "Aaron Roth" And then, what note should you tune your horn to, Bb or A? And if you tune it to A, how do you know if you have the slide in the right place? >> The slide is in the "right place" if it sounds in tune. I doesn't matter which pitch you use to tune within the context of a group, as long as you have a good set of ears and are constantly tuning as you play. A few weeks ago the trombone quartet I play in, Slyde Rowe, was rehearsing at my house. My piano tuner had just finished working and asked us to play something. Cold, no warm up, no tuning, we played "Lo How a Rose." After we were through she asked, "How were you all able to play in tune without playing a tuning note first?" Our unanimous answer was that we play an instrument that is one-half tuning-slide, and we all listen to each other and adjust. A tuning note (whether it's Bb, A, F#, or whatever) will give you an idea where the reference pitch is in relationship to where you 'normally' play that note, giving you an opportunity to compensate the general pitch of the open instrument, if it's substantially higher or lower than usual. Matt From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:06:32 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: END OF YEAR ISSUES Message-ID: <199912311808.MAA08101@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Griz, Adrian was just making a joke, but your sentiment is right no the money none-the-less. If we don't do it for love we may as well get jobs in the real world ;) Mike At 08:17 PM 12/30/99 , you wrote: >don't EVER play an instrument to outdo someone else. play an instrument >because you love it. > From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:20:42 -0800 From: Jimmy Durchslag To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: New Member and Other Stuff Message-ID: <386CF3FA.F8237E0D@asis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Welcome, Laura (and welcome back Adrian)! If you follow the list for any length of time or check the Trombone-L archives, you will see that there are almost as many opinions on the best instrument to play as there are members of the list. Well, maybe not quite as many. Although I think you have many options, the Conn 6H is a good choice because it is a smaller bore, professional quality, fairly free-blowing horn that can be found at a reasonable price. I'm sure you will find many advocates for Kings, Bachs (my main trombone is a Bach 36) and others. See what's available new or used in your area and try them out. One piece of advice: I do think it's important that you and your son each have your own horn. Even if you have to continue to rent one. This may seem like an extravagence, but the last thing you want to do is either create competition for the use of the horn or a barrier to practicing. Fortunately, in teaching my son I have had the 6H as a "spare" for him to use. This has made a big difference, as I have been able to play with him in a local family orchestra and I also make duets a standard part of our lessons. It is very difficult to play duets on one horn (multiphonics comes later.) Good luck to you in this renewed pursuit which I am confidant will bring a great deal of satisfaction. On the sharp F, sixth partial tuning issue. A lot has been said already. I think it is important to teach the slight adjustments necessary for a "standard" approach, okay "equal temperament" (ET--something bestowed on us by aliens?) approach to tuning, such as the flat 1st for sixth partial F, sharp 2nd for 7th partial G and sharp 5th for 5th partial B flat, as soon as the student is able to incorporate it. This is probably the same time to wean them away from the heavy dependence on 1st position and get comfortable with playing 8th partial G, 7th partial F, 6th partial D in 4th and the notes a half step down in 5th, adding the 5th partial B flat. All with their individual slight slide adjustments. This is only a partial explanation, of course, and you more experienced teachers may be more partial to other approaches. What has been pointed out already, and which I see as a great boon (and not a curse) to trombone players is that we have to use our ears to play in tune. This is something that can be taught from day one with a student. The instrument (really any instrument) cannot be played correctly without constantly listening (and adjusting, if necessary) to the people you are playing with. I am very grateful for this every time I play section parts with the flute player in our salsa band. It makes his tendency toward sharpness in the upper register at least (partially) tolerable. Finally: HAPPY MILLENIUM to all my compatriots in Tromboneland! If we all blow up at midnight, this list will have made it all worthwhile. The best reason to be on the internet! Jimmy -- Jimmy Durchslag BembŽ http://www.bembe.com From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:45:40 -0700 From: Larry & Carol Bronisz To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Enjoy the New Year Message-ID: <4.1.19991231114416.00ba1940@mail.trail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Enjoy the upcoming last year of the 20th century! Happy 2000. From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:04:25 -0500 From: sackbutt To: astro@pconline.com, Bone List Subject: Re: now, now Adrian Message-ID: <386CFE39.982D1705@netdepot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah yes,,,it's SO good to have Adrian back on line!!! Welcome back and Happy New Year Adrian!! Mike wrote: > EU GUYS!!!!!!! ;-) > > At 10:06 AM 12/28/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Adrian,,,,,I believe you are becoming too euphamistic! > > -- Butch ****************************************************** Hector "Butch" Bourg Jr. - Graphic Designer - Atlanta, GA Trombonist - Sentimental Journey Orchestra ICQ# 28972254 VISIT OUR UPDATED, REVISED & RELOCATED SITE http://www.thesjo.com Now with Real Audio Sound Clips! From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:01:54 -0500 From: David Buckley To: jdexter@home.msen.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Sharp F Above the Staff?! Message-ID: <386D0BB2.7A939D26@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Kleinhammer book has a comprehensive chart of all the partials and their peculiarities. It is also important to note that all horns are different and that mouthpieces can also make a difference. I know we should trust our ears but we also need to train them by using a tuner to test where our own setup falls. The partials on my Conn 88h have a large variance while those on my Bach 36 have almost none. It is important to know this and to adjust from horn to horn. Personally I am always happiest when I can forget about tuning and just think of the music. Sometimes happens too. Happy new Year to all. Dave Buckley. Jim Dexter wrote: > >On 30 Dec 99, at 11:54, Richard Human, Jr. wrote: > > This is topic which, I think, should be addressed much earlier in a > > trombonists' development than it currently is. > > Amen to that. I have been playing for over 30 years and only about > five years ago (with the help of a certain band leader with a very > finnicky ear) did I come to the self realization that that note is always > sharp in first. I had been told many times by general and lesson > instructors that "you are sharp" or flat, but never had an explanation > of the various overtone series and how they relate to slide position. I > think I was told 1rst postion, 3rd position etc. etc. is not "cut in > stone", but these issues were certainly never emphasized. > > > > From: David Fetter > > > Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:14:09 -0500 (EST) > > > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > > > Subject: Sharp F Above the Staff? > > > Anyone ever check their 6th > > >> partial F on their trombone on a tuner? It's sharp on almost all > > >> trombones to some degree, yet I never see anyone play it in a > > >> slightly flat first position. > > I always shift the slide down slightly now. The knowledge has helped > me be a better listener in all positions. I think I could have handled > that knowledge a very long time ago - But I am not fretting about it!!! > Hmmmm - think I'll go dig up that Arbans! > Jim Dexter From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:24:29 -0800 From: "Gary Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: REMINDER - LIST SHUTDOWN Message-ID: <004e01bf53e6$30b64ba0$5902a5d1@maxwells> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SHUT DOWN! OH, MAN, I JUST GOT BACK ON! GEEZE. WHAT LUCK! Just shoutin' in the New Year! All the best, Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: Earl Needham To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Friday, December 31, 1999 1:22 PM Subject: Re: REMINDER - LIST SHUTDOWN >At 08:13 AM 12/31/99 -0600, Listmonitor Trombone-L wrote: >>Just a quick reminder - the trombone-l will shut down at 12:00 noon CDT, 31 >>December, 1999. It will remain off-line through Monday, January 3, 2000. >> >>If you do not receive a message on Monday stating that the list is online, >>please contact me via e-mail - tsks@cjnetworks.com. >> >>Wishing you all a safe and happy New Year's Eve, >> >>LM > > After waiting for around 6 years, the date is upon us. I really wish the >list would be active throughout, as it would be a comfort. > > Here's goes nothin'... > > Earl > > >Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG >Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) > >Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, >you breathe...) > From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 22:29:02 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: "Gary Maxwell" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: REMINDER - LIST SHUTDOWN Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991231222902.00a29d80@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:24 PM 12/31/99 -0800, Gary Maxwell wrote: >SHUT DOWN! OH, MAN, I JUST GOT BACK ON! GEEZE. WHAT LUCK! > >Just shoutin' in the New Year! > >All the best, >Gary Maxwell >Bass Trombone >Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra Gee, Gary -- midnight has just hit the east coast. Everything looks OK so far, hope it stays this way. I can send you a partial list of subscribers and addresses, if you like. Happy New Year! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 09:16:51 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Trombone-L Subject: re. LIST OUTAGE Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Due to the complete non-event of the Y2K transition, the trombone-l has been brought back online early. May the New Year be one of prosperity, happiness, and great gigs to one and all! LM From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:32:13 EST From: BRASSRX@aol.com To: tpin@parnassus.dana.edu, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: [TPIN] TPIN Cryogenic testing update and Thanks to TPIN Message-ID: <0.23f3922f.259f77fd@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy New Years and Happy belated 6th birthday to TPIN: Just to bring you all up to speed with the cryogenic testing we are almost finished with the 2nd round of play testing just waiting for one tester to get back from New York to complete this round. Out of the four trumpets being used one has not gone through the cryogenic process. It has been very interesting to talk to each of the testers after they completed playing the four trumpets as each guessed which trumpet was not done. Can't really say anything yet about this until the final tester has finished this round. Its been fun and I would like to take the time to thank the following for their generous support for this. As I said before, I do not we could get this much cooperation from any other newsgroup to do a complicated test like this. We should all thank Jason Blough for organizing and tabulating the results from the playing testing, John Lynch for doing the spectra analysis and lending his CG Benge trumpet, Jeff Martin for use of his French Besson Classic trumpet, Michael Hohnbaum for lending his Bach S180-37 trumpet, and very special thanks to Al DeGaetano for trusting us with his hand made Blackburn trumpet. Last thanks to Ralph Jones for posting the spectra results on his web site. I am not sure if the first round of spectra is posted yet, John? Also finally thanks to the following for their generous contribution to the Shipping and Insurance fund to help defray this cost of shipping the instruments back and forth (4 times) to accomplish the TPIN Cryogenic Evaluation. Jerry Cerchia Michael Barry Michael Hohnbaum Richard Snook Jim Donaldson Michael Anderson Mark Lindvalh Russell Wright Ralph Holloway Stanton Kramer Martin Rooney Tim Hutson Kurt Schulenberg Brent Reppert John Ragan Alan Larson Neville Young John Regan Giz Bowe Dave Braseth I have decided if there is any money left in this shipping fund that it will be used to help fund a few needy students who because of lack of income might need a new mouthpiece, accessory item, or whatever to further their music education ... the left over funds if any will be used for this cause. So if it looks like there will be money left over we will put a posting out to TPIN to any of you that may have a student in need, so we can do some further good here. Wayne Tanabe The Brass Bow Music Co. 101 North Hickory Ave. Arlington Hts. IL 60004 847-253-7552 847-253-0792 fax Brassrx@aol.com www.thebrassbow.com From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 09:11:11 -0800 From: David Leep To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Ringing the bell (was Re: tuning stuff..) Message-ID: <386E352F.EBFBA84E@uswest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Richard Human, Jr." wrote: > (snip tuning stuff) > On my horn (Bach 42 w/retrofitted & modified Thayer - Elliot mp) there are a > few notes that ring the bell when I play them "right." I say "right" > because sometimes I have to play them intentionally flat or sharp - > depending on the context of the orchestration and what others around me are > doing. When I say "ring" I mean that after I finish playing the note - if > there is silence afterwards - you can hear the bell vibrating that pitch. > > Fifth partial Bb in fifth position, fifth partial A in second, sometimes > sixth partial Eb and E as well.... (snip more tuning stuff) > > Happy new year all - take care of yourselves. > > Richard =============== On my horn (King 3B/F ca. 1970) it's F's and C's that sometimes ring like that. Is this common? or desirable? or noticeable to others than the player? (I hear it mostly when practicing in a very small room.) Since it's only a few notes and (for me) intermittent, it didn't seem musically useful. I took it for a minor flaw and hoped it wouldn't be noticed in ensemble playing (at least not in comparison with my other flaws). David Leep (lurker on the archives; on the List only a few weeks) (off the horn 29 years, recently resumed playing in church and community band) From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 12:55:31 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: tuning stuff, Y2K, food... Message-ID: <200001011756.MAA14059@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all... Happy New Year. Happy New Century. Happy New Millennium However...S. O. S. Nothing Y2Kish happened; the date is just a manmade convenience so we can all tell when the bills are due, and the hype is over. On to the real stuff... You can tell if a trombone section is any good by looking at them even if you can't hear them, just by watching their slides. A fine section will be continually adjusting to what's happening in the music and the ensemble, micro-shifts in the slide for every note longer than about a quarter note at MM=60. "Positions" are really just "areas", general places on the slide where a note is likely to be found if all else goes well, and with the possible exception of this recent lovely New Years Eve we all had, all else NEVER "goes well". The oboist is sharp; the band tuned to the piano and then promptly went up in pitch and stayed there; the temperature in the room is shifting, sending the smaller instruments more quickly to another pitch than the larger ones; the room is like a refrigerator and the bass trombonist, who's doubling on tuba, had exactly 27 seconds to put down his bass trombone and pick up his tuba after not playing the tuba for twenty minutes; he's now pitched at A 429 and will continue to rise in pitch at an exponential rate until the end of the exposed lower brass chorale you're currently playing and the conductor's staring at YOU with that "What's WRONG w/you ???" look... Whatcha gonna DO??? Good trombonists in complicated pitch situations...situations where you can't REALLY tell WHAT'S wrong w/the pitch ("I don't understand...I keep pushing in and I'm STILL sharp" kinda situations...) simply adjust the slide up and down until they find the place where the note is LEAST out of tune, and then move on the next experiment. They do this w/EVERY note, VERY subtly and quite automatically, except in those rare and blessed occasions where everybody in the ensemble plays "in tune"...which only means that all the musicians are adjusting their pitches on EVERY note to play them "in tune" with the varying harmonic and melodic demands of the music. As far as sharp Fs, Flat Ds, etcetera...the harmonic series is naturally "out of tune". (IN tune really, unless you want to argue with the universe, but that's a whole 'nother discussion...) Horn design has evolved in such a way as to pull the harmonic series of the trombone MORE "in tune" w/the well tempered scale, but that evolution has been a two edged sword, in my opinion. The best SOUNDING trombones, the ones with the best response and general playing characteristics that I personally have ever played, have all had a harmonic series that was relatively LESS "in tune" than the general run of instruments. The few horns I've owned that WERE more or less "in tune" throughout their harmonic series were all horns that had a less rich sound than the ones that had a few slightly eccentric partials. Trombones can be less "tempered" than other brass instruments BECAUSE of the slide...an "out of tune" trumpet or euphonium will give a good player fits, but a trombone that has a slightly sharp 6th partial or flat 5th is easy to play...y'just move the slide, and there you are... One tactic that I've adopted is to play in a slightly extended 1st position, which allows you to pull flat first positions notes easily into the right pitch and has the added advantages of allowing you to play in first position w/the SHARPEST players and also use slide vibrato in 1st if you so desire. This results in a 7th position which is a stretch to reach, but it can be done. I hold my horn so that the small finger of my left hand and the thumb of my right meet in my extended first position, acting as a sort of ad hoc spring (like the ones in some Conn slides). However you go about it, don't get too carried away with the search for an "in tune" instrument. Remember, the blues (the "blue notes") is really just an adjustment that people from a non-well tempered musical culture (Africans shanghaied to America) made to play what they really heard on well tempered instruments. Think about it...the two most "out of tune" notes on the Bb trombone in first position are the Ds in first, both of which are flat, and the Ab in first which is REALLY flat. And what are the two "blue" notes in the key of Bb ???? "Flat" D and "flat" Ab !!! "AH HA !!!" said the scientist to his dim witted apprentice. "I think I'm beginning to get the picture now...!!!" Don't misunderstand me here...I'm not saying that a horn w/a totally screwed up harmonic series is good, either...horn design is a series of compromises and experiments that has been going on literally for centuries, and will continue well through Y3K, I'll betcha... just don't get too carried away looking for the "perfect", "in tune" horn. Only a synthesizer in REALLY "in tune"...and we all know how dull THAT can be... Later... S. P.S. I had a wonderful time last night leading a trombone/guitar/bass trio at the best restaurant in Wilmington, Delaware, a place called "821". It's right across from the Grand Opera House there, and a great place to eat. The chef (I'll admit to a little nepotism here...he's my nephew...but even if I DIDN'T know him I'd be raving about his talents.) is one of the most creative cooks I've ever experienced, and believe me...I've EXPERIENCED !!! Beautiful restaurant, 20 steps from the Opera House. Anyone who's either working there or goes to see a performance, check it out. You won't be disappointed. From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 12:57:01 -0500 From: kingbone@earthlink.net To: "Trombone forum." Subject: Trombone recommendations Message-ID: <386E3FE9.CEF70FA3@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome Laura! I will second John McVey's great advice and note that his experience is remarkably similar to mine: I stopped playing 23 years ago and have been playing again for just over a year. In that time I've tried just about very brand with the exception of Edwards, Shires and Lawler. I've settled on a King 3B-F (.508 bore) for my standard wind band and a Conn 88H and King 4B-F (.547 bore) for my brass band. I had never played a large bore or a F attachment until last year, and I'm happy to report that both can be adapted to readily. Like John, I'll advise you to try as many horns as you can, in every combination. This probably will be hard to do unless you live near a large music store. If you don't and you plan to be serious on trombone, it may be worth a road trip to New York, Boston, or South Bend, Indiana (the Woodwind and Brasswind) to be able to see almost every horn available. Set a price range but be flexible within reason. Take someone with you who is familiar with your sound (your teacher if possible), and play the same piece of music or drills on every horn. Make sure you use the entire range of the horn at minimum and maximum volume. Try different bell materials (yellow brass, rose brass, gold brass, sterling silver) and different slides (dual bore, etc). If you have something memorized to play, close your eyes and ask your friend to hand you the horns one after the other. Don't look at the brand name -- listen to the sound. Take a long time to do this -- it's your money. Ask your friend what you sound like on each horn, and take this into consideration with what you hear. Number the horns and rate them. When you're done, pick the best rating and buy that horn, no matter what brand it is. The "blindfold" aspect removes the psychological tricks your brain will play on you. If you think you'll sound better on a Conn, chances are you'll lean to the Conn even if you really sound better on a Bach. So close your eyes and pick the horn that feels, plays and sounds best. Remember, you're going to be playing this several hours a day every day for the rest of your life. Bast of luck. Dave Molter Pittsburgh, PA From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:25:52 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombone-l" Subject: Antique Mouthpiece Message-ID: <000d01bf5485$a4f3fc20$f8300923@becks.cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for information on a mouthpiece my wife picked up a garage sale. It has seen better days and the markings are difficult to read. I can make out "True Tone" and the number 55. The brand name looks like PLESCHER but could be BUESCHER. The mouthpiece has a very thick and rounded rim. It has a tenor shank. I don't know the throat diameter but I can easily fit a pencil through the mouthpiece Does anyone know anything about this creature? Thanks, Steve From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:29:18 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Trombone recommendations Message-ID: <200001011829.NAA19994@smtp7.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:57 PM 1/1/00 -0500, Dave Molter wrote: ---snip--- >When you're done, pick the best rating and buy that horn, no matter what brand it is. The >"blindfold" aspect removes the psychological tricks your brain will play on >you. If you think you'll sound better on a Conn, chances are you'll lean to >the Conn even if you really sound better on a Bach. So close your eyes and >pick the horn that feels, plays and sounds best. Remember, you're going to be >playing this several hours a day every day for the rest of your life. > >Bast of luck. > >Dave Molter >Pittsburgh, PA ==================== Very true. One other thing...bring gloves. Better, mittens. THICK mittens. Really. If you truly want to blindfold yourself...and I firmly belive it's the best way to choose equipment...and you're playing different brands, they all FEEL so different it's hard to remain ignorant of which one you're testing. If you can wear gloves or mittens...heavy canvas work gloves will be effective too...at least until you've narrowed down the search to one model, you'll be better off. One further tactic...once you DO settle on one model, see if you can find several examples of it, and blind test them as well. Try switching bells, slides and tuning slides until you find the best combination. Most music stores and even horn companies could care less which combination of pieces you buy, as long as they're left with saleable horns after you're done mixing and matching. That's one reason so many instruments only have the serial number on one part of the horn. Have fun... S. From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 12:37:38 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: tsks@cjnetworks.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: re. LIST OUTAGE Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000101123738.00a35de0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:16 AM 1/1/00 -0600, Listmonitor Trombone-L wrote: >Due to the complete non-event of the Y2K transition, the trombone-l has >been brought back online early. YAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!! >May the New Year be one of prosperity, happiness, and great gigs to one and >all! Same to all, from here too! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34d 25.446 W103d 12.700 (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:40 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:16:02 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Wanted-Conn bass parts Message-ID: <0.cd95bac1.259fc892@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy New Year! For any of you who have stuff in the closet, garage, basement, attic, woodshed, etc., would like to pay off some holiday debt AND can help me out, if you have the following for sale. Remember that I'm looking for components, not complete instruments. I have plenty of those. I'm going to try and put a horn together out of parts. Conn bass trombone tunable handslides, even if inner slide tubes are no longer any good, or even just outer slide with tuning, in repairable condition. Conn 60 series bass trombone bell flares, red brass, 9.5" or even complete bell sections with one or two valves. Will consider even if the back crook is destroyed or missing. Larry Minick mouthpiece model "L" Burt Herrick or Larry Minick bass trombone leadpipes. Thanks, Matt Varho Bass Trombonist Aliso Viejo Symphony From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:40:32 PST From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: tuning stuff Message-ID: <20000101214032.56976.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ><< From: "Aaron Roth" > And then, what > note should you tune your horn to, Bb or A? And if you tune it to A, how >do > you know if you have the slide in the right place? >> ACK!! Everyone, there seems to be a misdirection of quotes here. My name appears over that quote only because I replied to a post originally composed by Adrian Drover. Adrian, you can back me up, right? I don't think I'm hallucinating having not written that line, because I responded to it with something like you gotta be able to accurately hear the semitone difference between Bb and A so that you can tune regardless of what pitch is offered. -Aaron Roth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:57:44 PST From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece Message-ID: <20000101215744.34183.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed List: I think I can safely say that I've given this mouthpiece a fair trial now. I still like it, and it still works well with my little 'bone. A successful experiment in personal taste, I think. Just thought I'd follow up on the original thread regarding the risks of switching mouthpieces. -Aaron Roth >Aaron, > > > All: > > > > I just got my Schilke 51D (smallbore) today. I know almost >everyone > > hates Schilke mouthpieces for some odd reason, but it feels so far like >the > > mouthpiece that works for my tenor. My King 3B feels almost like a >.547" > > symphonic tenor now, but more flexible in terms of tone color options. >The > > low range is easy and responsive now, and there are no more intonation > > problems anywhere on the horn. Before now I had been playing on a Doug > > Elliott 100 rim, F cup, and some small backbore, and my low range felt > > restricted and stuffy (probably a byproduct of my primary concentration >on > > bass 'bone); now all my pedal tones feel great and the infamous King >trigger > > even feels fine. Thought I'd pass on the positive personal experience. > > >You said you just got it today? >I'd like to hear your feedback on a new mouthpiece after you've played it >for a month straight. > >Newness brings out other things too. > >Tom > > -Aaron Roth > > > > > > | /| > > | _ / | > > | ___________________/---/ | > > | / | > > | / __________________ | > > | / / _||_ || \---\_ | > > || / /King\ || \ | > > | \ \ \3B-F/ || \| > > | \ \__||______||______________________________________ > > | \___________________________________________________ \ > > | | | | | ___ \ \ > > | |ø---- __|_|____|_|_________________________\_/ / > > | | 51-D }_____________________________________<>_/ > > | |_---- > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:33:54 -0800 From: "Ellard" To: "Trombone List" , Subject: Re: tuning stuff Message-ID: <001e01bf54a8$4a246000$e8ef94d1@ellard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My biggest worry when playing is that I don't play in tune, that I am unable to hear that I don't play in tune and that everyone around me is simply too polite to say anything to me about it. Rod (Ears of Stone) Ellard From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:45:24 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: tuning stuff Message-ID: <003401bf54a9$e73e76e0$2b1a0f3f@default> Come on Rod! When do you play with musicians that polite? Too tone deaf to tell, maybe. To hammered to care, maybe. But too polite? I wanna be in your band!!!! :-) Have a Happy New Year! I'll wish you all a new century next year. Ken Dowdy -----Original Message----- From: Ellard To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Saturday, January 01, 2000 4:29 PM Subject: Re: tuning stuff >My biggest worry when playing is that I don't play in tune, that I am unable >to hear that I don't play in tune and that everyone around me is simply too >polite to say anything to me about it. > >Rod (Ears of Stone) Ellard > > > From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:37:17 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: END OF YEAR ISSUES Message-ID: <000e01bf54a9$90635b60$0eeeabc3@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Coyle To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 6:06 PM Subject: Re: END OF YEAR ISSUES > Griz, > > Adrian was just making a joke, but your sentiment is right no the money > none-the-less. If we don't do it for love we may as well get jobs in the > real world ;) Too true Mike. If I didn't love what I'm doing, I wouldn't have stuck with it for 30 years. After all, I did try just about every other instrument before deciding to stick with the bass trombone. Adrian Adrian Drover (ADIOS) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:53:46 -0800 From: "Ellard" To: "Trombone List" , Subject: Re: tuning stuff Message-ID: <004901bf54ab$107f9240$e8ef94d1@ellard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sabutin wrote > > One tactic that I've adopted is to play in a slightly extended 1st >position, which allows you to pull flat first positions notes easily into >the right pitch and has the added advantages of allowing you to play in >first position w/the SHARPEST players and also use slide vibrato in 1st if >you so desire. This results in a 7th position which is a stretch to reach, >but it can be done. I hold my horn so that the small finger of my left hand >and the thumb of my right meet in my extended first position, acting as a >sort of ad hoc spring (like the ones in some Conn slides).> Here's a thought. You tune Bb in closed first. But you don't play Bb in closed first unless you're playing a half note (or longer). Otherwise, you're whacking yourself in the chops all night (or hitting that closed first absolutely dead on every time which seems to me unlikely) More likely you're playing it a little long anyway. Rod From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:11:50 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece Message-ID: <003901bf54ad$98544c40$2b1a0f3f@default> Aaron and list, Both your original post and most recent were very interesting. I don't know why the Schilke would be disliked as a brand, other than they feel different than about everything else. However, here is what I have found. I have been using Conn Mouthpieces since I first learned how to play the trombone back in the '70s. I also used Conn mouthpieces on my trumpet and cornets. I ran into a problem in that the mouthpieces that I used were all manufactured in the '50s and '60s and were no longer produced. This almost made it impossible for me to make minor changes and experiment with new ideas in this area. I tried the Bachs, and found the quality control left a bit to be desired. The Jet Tone gave me some immediate improvements in my tone, but I soon became a victim of the pattern that Sabutin so accurately described. My tone improved initially, got worse, and then ended up almost exactly where it was before I switched. I first "discovered" Schilke when I purchased my Soprano Trombone. The Conn 4 Trumpet mouthpiece that I was using just flat out would not work at all. The Jupiter 7C that came with the trombone was OK in the higher ranges, but made the lower register nearly impossible (I did not have this problem with the trumpet). I next tried an Olds 3C with some improvement. Tom Izzo told me to try a Schilke 24 on the soprano since it was much larger than the others and may help me out in the low range. I took his advice and found the Schilke to be about the oddest feeling mouthpiece that I ever tried. After a few weeks, I also found it to be the most comfortable. I have been using it for about 6 months now with no loss in the upper register, and considerable improvement in the lower. What does this have to do with the tenor trombone? I picked up a Schilke two months ago for my King 3B. Mine is a bit smaller than the one you have. The change in tone was very drastic (much more so than with the Soprano) and for the better. And, unlike the other brands that I have tried, I have not detected any degradation in tone or tendency to "go back where I was in the first place". I'm going to keep this one on for a few more months and see what happens. I hope my luck is as good as yours. BTW, just as the Schilke was the most comfortable trumpet (soprano bone) mouthpiece that I have ever played, it is also the most comfortable tenor trombone mouthpiece that I have played. Ken Dowdy -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Roth To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Saturday, January 01, 2000 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece >List: > > I think I can safely say that I've given this mouthpiece a fair trial >now. I still like it, and it still works well with my little 'bone. A >successful experiment in personal taste, I think. > Just thought I'd follow up on the original thread regarding the risks >of switching mouthpieces. > -Aaron Roth > > >>Aaron, >> >> > All: >> > >> > I just got my Schilke 51D (smallbore) today. I know almost >>everyone >> > hates Schilke mouthpieces for some odd reason, but it feels so far like >>the >> > mouthpiece that works for my tenor. My King 3B feels almost like a >>.547" >> > symphonic tenor now, but more flexible in terms of tone color options. >>The >> > low range is easy and responsive now, and there are no more intonation >> > problems anywhere on the horn. Before now I had been playing on a Doug >> > Elliott 100 rim, F cup, and some small backbore, and my low range felt >> > restricted and stuffy (probably a byproduct of my primary concentration >>on >> > bass 'bone); now all my pedal tones feel great and the infamous King >>trigger >> > even feels fine. Thought I'd pass on the positive personal experience. >> > >>You said you just got it today? >>I'd like to hear your feedback on a new mouthpiece after you've played it >>for a month straight. >> >>Newness brings out other things too. >> >>Tom >> >> -Aaron Roth >> > >> > >> > | /| >> > | _ / | >> > | ___________________/---/ | >> > | / | >> > | / __________________ | >> > | / / _||_ || \---\_ | >> > || / /King\ || \ | >> > | \ \ \3B-F/ || \| >> > | \ \__||______||______________________________________ >> > | \___________________________________________________ \ >> > | | | | | ___ \ \ >> > | |¯---- __|_|____|_|_________________________\_/ / >> > | | 51-D }_____________________________________<>_/ >> > | |_---- >> > >> > ______________________________________________________ >> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:25:06 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece Message-ID: <001701bf54c0$3425a6c0$375efc9e@volpaulbear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Aaron & Ken & Tom, The biggest problem that I have found with Schilke large shank mouthpieces are that they really don't fit any other trombone properly but the Conn 88H. Perhaps the reason for this is that Renold Schilke designed the 88H back in the 40's and designed his line of mouthpieces to fit that particular leadpipe. I have a student who really likes the feel of the Schilke 51 on his face, but because of the fit of his Schilke in his Edwards, he had to get the shorter tuning slide so that he'd have somewhere to go in the event he couldn't get the horn up to pitch, In fact, Doug Warner, our principal trombonist here in Chattanooga, has been playing a Schilke 51 for quite a while, and he also ended up getting the Edwards shorter tuning slide. Now the small tenor shank mouthpieces seem to fit the smaller bore tenors fine. The problem with using the 51D on a King 3B is that the cup is just too deep for that bore size instrument. ALL of the 3B's I've ever seen are tuned quite sharp with the tuning slide all of the way in, and must be pulled out about 2" for the smaller mouthpieces to play a Bb in tune. What I suspect will happen is that you'll sound quite tubby & dark in the middle and low register, and the upper register will lack projection & clarity. THE 3B IS NOT SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE A .547 INSTRUMENT!!!!!!!!! It has a very particular function--jazz and commercial work. Using a larger mouthpiece with a small shank does NOT mean the mouthpiece REALLY fits the horn, even though the shank may fit into the receiver. Unless you have a very unique dental structure and I'll stand corrected if you do, you will NOT get the RIGHT SOUND on the horn because of the depth of the cup. Now a 51B will do just fine--MUCH shallower cup. Same rim as the 51. I went through the same problem when I used to play a Bach 36. The largest mouthpiece that I could use and get the true characterictic sound on the horn was a Bach 6 1/2 AL. Again, the 36 is NOT supposed to sound like the 42. If you need the sound of a large bore instrument and you don't play it all the time, get a good used one and practice on it with a mouthpiece that fits both you & the instrument. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Dowdy To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 6:11 PM Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece > Aaron and list, > > Both your original post and most recent were very interesting. I don't know > why the Schilke would be disliked as a brand, other than they feel different > than about everything else. However, here is what I have found. I have > been using Conn Mouthpieces since I first learned how to play the trombone > back in the '70s. I also used Conn mouthpieces on my trumpet and cornets. > I ran into a problem in that the mouthpieces that I used were all > manufactured in the '50s and '60s and were no longer produced. This almost > made it impossible for me to make minor changes and experiment with new > ideas in this area. I tried the Bachs, and found the quality control left a > bit to be desired. The Jet Tone gave me some immediate improvements in my > tone, but I soon became a victim of the pattern that Sabutin so accurately > described. My tone improved initially, got worse, and then ended up almost > exactly where it was before I switched. I first "discovered" Schilke when I > purchased my Soprano Trombone. The Conn 4 Trumpet mouthpiece that I was > using just flat out would not work at all. The Jupiter 7C that came with > the trombone was OK in the higher ranges, but made the lower register nearly > impossible (I did not have this problem with the trumpet). I next tried an > Olds 3C with some improvement. Tom Izzo told me to try a Schilke 24 on the > soprano since it was much larger than the others and may help me out in the > low range. I took his advice and found the Schilke to be about the oddest > feeling mouthpiece that I ever tried. After a few weeks, I also found it to > be the most comfortable. I have been using it for about 6 months now with > no loss in the upper register, and considerable improvement in the lower. > > What does this have to do with the tenor trombone? I picked up a Schilke > two months ago for my King 3B. Mine is a bit smaller than the one you have. > The change in tone was very drastic (much more so than with the Soprano) and > for the better. And, unlike the other brands that I have tried, I have not > detected any degradation in tone or tendency to "go back where I was in the > first place". I'm going to keep this one on for a few more months and see > what happens. I hope my luck is as good as yours. > > BTW, just as the Schilke was the most comfortable trumpet (soprano bone) > mouthpiece that I have ever played, it is also the most comfortable tenor > trombone mouthpiece that I have played. > > Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Roth > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Date: Saturday, January 01, 2000 3:58 PM > Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece > > > >List: > > > > I think I can safely say that I've given this mouthpiece a fair trial > >now. I still like it, and it still works well with my little 'bone. A > >successful experiment in personal taste, I think. > > Just thought I'd follow up on the original thread regarding the risks > >of switching mouthpieces. > > -Aaron Roth > > > > > >>Aaron, > >> > >> > All: > >> > > >> > I just got my Schilke 51D (smallbore) today. I know almost > >>everyone > >> > hates Schilke mouthpieces for some odd reason, but it feels so far like > >>the > >> > mouthpiece that works for my tenor. My King 3B feels almost like a > >>.547" > >> > symphonic tenor now, but more flexible in terms of tone color options. > >>The > >> > low range is easy and responsive now, and there are no more intonation > >> > problems anywhere on the horn. Before now I had been playing on a Doug > >> > Elliott 100 rim, F cup, and some small backbore, and my low range felt > >> > restricted and stuffy (probably a byproduct of my primary concentration > >>on > >> > bass 'bone); now all my pedal tones feel great and the infamous King > >>trigger > >> > even feels fine. Thought I'd pass on the positive personal experience. > >> > > >>You said you just got it today? > >>I'd like to hear your feedback on a new mouthpiece after you've played it > >>for a month straight. > >> > >>Newness brings out other things too. > >> > >>Tom > >> > >> -Aaron Roth > >> > > >> > > >> > | /| > >> > | _ / | > >> > | ___________________/---/ | > >> > | / | > >> > | / __________________ | > >> > | / / _||_ || \---\_ | > >> > || / /King\ || \ | > >> > | \ \ \3B-F/ || \| > >> > | \ \__||______||______________________________________ > >> > | \___________________________________________________ \ > >> > | | | | | ___ \ \ > >> > | |ø---- __|_|____|_|_________________________\_/ / > >> > | | 51-D }_____________________________________<>_/ > >> > | |_---- > >> > > >> > ______________________________________________________ > >> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > > >> > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 18:13:30 PST From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece Message-ID: <20000102021330.30603.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Paul and all interested readers: It's true, I don't sound like I'm playing a large-bore tenor when I toot on my 3B. However, I'll disagree with the expectation that the mouthpiece should fit the horn but poorly, either in shape or in size. What I look for in using a 51D on a .509" trombone is a trombone that possesses a fairly light yet not overly bright sound (if that makes sense), a well-balanced overall range (especially a more responsive lower register than normally found on the shallower or narrower mouthpieces), and full control of the airstream in both dynamic extremes, allowing me to suit my playing style and tone to a fairly wide variety of situations. It's true, my high range when using the mouthpiece is not as clear at the top end (altiss. F and up) as it would be on, say, my Marcinkiewicz G. Woll 'piece or on a Jet-Tone; were I to play lead 'bone in a big band, then I would quickly switch to that smaller bore and shallower cup. But I would do well in any chamber ensemble setting, and I can sound appropriate in a wind ensemble section, and I could even function in on orchestral section if the music in question called for scaled-down equipment. No, it's not Mahler-dark, but that's not what I want; I could use a tenor mouthpiece on my bass and get that result if need be...or I could get a large tenor and a large mouthpiece for the extra oomph. It's true, by the way, that with a smaller mouthpiece I have to put my tuning slide out about 2"; also, my horn's idiosyncracies (sharp 4th harmonic, in-tune 3rd and 6th harmonics, sharp 5th harmonic) become more prominent. The 8th harmonic would try to run flat, but the shallower cup does compensate for that. In conclusion, I like the sound I get with the setup I use. Maybe I do have funny teeth...but even if not, the sound is the one I want. It works for the jobs to which I apply it, and it has done so for over two months. It may also be that my bass trombone chops make me like deeper cups, too, but I don't want to change that unless it starts holding me back. I'm happy. Happy New Year!! -Aaron Roth >Dear Aaron & Ken & Tom, > The biggest problem that I have found with Schilke large shank >mouthpieces are that they really don't fit any other trombone properly but >the Conn 88H. Perhaps the reason for this is that Renold Schilke designed >the 88H back in the 40's and designed his line of mouthpieces to fit that >particular leadpipe. I have a student who really likes the feel of the >Schilke 51 on his face, but because of the fit of his Schilke in his >Edwards, he had to get the shorter tuning slide so that he'd have somewhere >to go in the event he couldn't get the horn up to pitch, In fact, Doug >Warner, our principal trombonist here in Chattanooga, has been playing a >Schilke 51 for quite a while, and he also ended up getting the Edwards >shorter tuning slide. Now the small tenor shank mouthpieces seem to fit >the smaller bore tenors fine. The problem with using the 51D on a King 3B >is >that the cup is just too deep for that bore size instrument. ALL of the >3B's >I've ever seen are tuned quite sharp with the tuning slide all of the way >in, and must be pulled out about 2" for the smaller mouthpieces to play a >Bb >in tune. What I suspect will happen is that you'll sound quite tubby & dark >in the middle and low register, and the upper register will lack projection >& clarity. THE 3B IS NOT SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE A .547 INSTRUMENT!!!!!!!!! >It has a very particular function--jazz and commercial work. Using a larger >mouthpiece with a small shank does NOT mean the mouthpiece REALLY fits the >horn, even though the shank may fit into the receiver. Unless you have a >very unique dental structure and I'll stand corrected if you do, you will >NOT get the RIGHT SOUND on the horn because of the depth of the cup. Now a >51B will do just fine--MUCH shallower cup. Same rim as the 51. > I went through the same problem when I used to play a Bach 36. The >largest mouthpiece that I could use and get the true characterictic sound >on >the horn was a Bach 6 1/2 AL. Again, the 36 is NOT supposed to sound like >the 42. If you need the sound of a large bore instrument and you don't play >it all the time, get a good used one and practice on it with a mouthpiece >that fits both you & the instrument. > >Paul Kemp >Chattanooga Symphony ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:16:22 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Effects of mouthpiece Message-ID: <000e01bf54cf$c125b2e0$b91d0f3f@default> Paul, You wrote: Now the small tenor shank mouthpieces seem to fit >the smaller bore tenors fine. Well, kind of. The problem with using the 51D on a King 3B is >that the cup is just too deep for that bore size instrument. I agree. The mouthpiece that I am trying is a Schilke 40B. I have found that the King 3B responds very well to smaller mouthpieces. ALL of the 3B's >I've ever seen are tuned quite sharp with the tuning slide all of the way >in, and must be pulled out about 2" for the smaller mouthpieces to play a Bb >in tune. You are right on. I need to pull about 1.5 inch to play the Bb in at A=440, even temp. scale. I am, however, right on on F with the tuning slide 0.5 inch out. I also noticed that third position is a bit further out from where it used to be, and fourth is a bit further in. I am having to adjust, but I have always wanted to learn to play 1st a bit further out, so I am using this as my excuse to learn. What I suspect will happen is that you'll sound quite tubby & dark >in the middle and low register, and the upper register will lack projection >& clarity. THE 3B IS NOT SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE A .547 INSTRUMENT!!!!!!!!! Amen! Amen! and God Bless You!!!! Now the 40B has a very deep cup for its size, but this is offset by a VERY narrow cup diameter. What I like most about the 40B is that it gives me the bright tone that I like down low without getting TOO bright up high. In fact, I sound very mellow between Bb below middle C and Bb above middle C (the range I most like playing). The sound is a little "darker" than a trumpet, but not at all the stuffy french horn sound that a lot of trombones take on with the larger mouthpieces. I also find the transition from the 40B to the Schilke 24 on my soprano bone to be nearly effortless, which is something that I couldn't say when I was using the Jet Tone and the Conn 3. With the latter two mouthpieces, once I played the soprano bone or the cornet, I was done on the tenor bone for the night. Now, I can switch between the two a bit more freely. >It has a very particular function--jazz and commercial work. Using a larger >mouthpiece with a small shank does NOT mean the mouthpiece REALLY fits the >horn, even though the shank may fit into the receiver. Unless you have a >very unique dental structure and I'll stand corrected if you do, you will >NOT get the RIGHT SOUND on the horn because of the depth of the cup. Now a >51B will do just fine--MUCH shallower cup. Same rim as the 51. > I went through the same problem when I used to play a Bach 36. The >largest mouthpiece that I could use and get the true characterictic sound on >the horn was a Bach 6 1/2 AL. Again, the 36 is NOT supposed to sound like >the 42. If you need the sound of a large bore instrument and you don't play >it all the time, get a good used one and practice on it with a mouthpiece >that fits both you & the instrument. > >Paul Kemp >Chattanooga Symphony > > Paul, we agree totally. Matching the sound to the trombone is a bit like understanding the situation in Northern Ireland. For those that understand, no explanation is necessary. For those that don't, no explanation is possible. And we'll be fighting about the "proper" trombone sound forever. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:18:35 EST From: Athena1182@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Student Help Message-ID: <0.d64a557f.25a02b9b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am a new member to this list, and I would like the opinion of other members. From reading the postings I have received, I do know that I am asking the right people. Anyway, I am a student with dreams to become a band/orchestra director. Due to income, I am still playing on a student trombone that I have had since the beginning. I would like to now purchase one that would get me through the rest of my years of school and start me off as a small orchestra performer until I get where I want to be. I now own an Olds Ambassador. There is absolutely nothing special about it. Could someone help me by directing me towards a horn that would be perfect for my use for the next 10 years at least. One that is not too expensive, but of good quality. All I know is that I would like one with an F-attachment. Thank you very much. Steffanie Leonard Future performer, director, and mother From ???@??? Tue Jan 04 07:59:41 2000 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:18:07 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: tuning stuff Message-ID: <006401bf550e$ea6bce20$cbffabc3@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Roth To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 9:40 PM Subject: Re: tuning stuff > ><< From: "Aaron Roth" > > And then, what > > note should you tune your horn to, Bb or A? And if you tune it to A, how > >do > > you know if you have the slide in the right place? >> > > ACK!! Everyone, there seems to be a misdirection of quotes here. My name > appears over that quote only because I replied to a post originally composed > by Adrian Drover. Adrian, you can back me up, right? Sure thing Aaron. That definitely was my quote, though I did make it in the last century. We should all be careful how we quote each other, though most e-mail readers usually indicate how many generations ago the quote was made. I wish everyone would use plain text in posting too, as html loses these indicators. Misquotes can lead to flames, and we don't need any of that, do we. Adrian Adrian Drover (ADIOS) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk