At that time, territory bands, like King Kolax and Ernie Fields, provided important experience for a lot of young musicians, didn't they?

Oh, yeah. I'm sorry that the big bands aren't around now, because they were a wonderful training ground to teach musicians how to blend with other musicians, for example. And because I was a young guy, the older guys in the band are the ones who taught me all about life, how to dress, manners, how to carry myself, how to conduct myself. I think the older guys kind of took to me because they could see that I was trying to live in the tradition. And I asked them different things. You know, "How do you this? How do you do that?" And they were always very gracious because I was a gentlemanly young guy from New Orleans and I never overstepped my bounds.

Musicians in those days really loved to see the younger guys coming up, and these days, too. Jimmy Heath for one. Any musician can walk up to him and ask him anything about anything and he'll give you a good, clear answer. (Just don't walk up to him with any nonsense.) Jazz musicians, the good ones, are very giving. I don't know if their reason is the same as mine, but when older guys would give me these answers, I'd say, "Thank you so much. Can I pay you something?" They'd said, "No. When the situation is reversed, you do the same thing for a younger guy. That's the payment that I want."

I guess Lionel Hampton was your first big-time gig. How did you join him?

Well, this has to do with Oklahoma, too. It seems like, in retrospect, I was pretty much at the right place at the right time, because I was in Tulsa and Lionel Hampton's band came through. Now the day previous to this, one of his trombone players, Chips Outcalt, had quit. So Lionel Hampton was short one trombone player when he got to Tulsa.

Betty Carter was with the band at this time and Hamp depended upon her expertise with younger musicians, depended upon her to tell him who the beboppers, or potential beboppers, were. I didn't find this out 'til way later. She was at a performance a few years ago and told one of my nieces that Hamp came to her and asked, "Well, what do you think of this guy?" And she gave me thumbs up. That's the way I joined Hamp's band. But I don't think, before or since, any name band has gone to Tulsa looking for a trombone player. I happened to be in the right spot at the right time.

You joined Count Basie in a more conventional way.

Well, I had been living in Canada for a while and when I came back to New York in 1951, I was around town just looking for a job. Frankly, I wanted to go with Charlie Ventura's band. [Trombonist] Bennie Green had just been with the band and I would have loved to have been in that position, because that would be a small band and I would get a chance to develop as a trombone player. I also wanted to join Illinois Jacquet's band because he was using trombone. So I actually wanted to play with a small band.

At any rate, in the interim I was working at the Apollo Theatre, playing for the acts and so forth, and one of the saxophone players with this particular band, Charlie Fowlkes, told me that Basie was reorganizing a big band. At the time, Basie had a small group with Clark Terry and Buddy DeFranco.

Wardell Grey was in that small band, too.

Yes. A fine band. But I think as great as it was, Basie was used to having all that power behind him. So Charlie Fowlkes told me where they were rehearsing and suggested I come there. I did and stayed 12 years!

But you never really got hired officially, did you?

Oh, yeah. I always tell a story about "Base" having a little pixie side of his character. He would sort of toy with you. If he had something that you wanted, he would eventually give it to you, but he would dangle it in front of you for a long time.

When I first joined his band, we began playing just weekends out from New York. The first weekend we played in Boston, I remember it was October 11. When we came back to New York he gave us the dates for the next weekend. This happened for a couple of weekends. But since I had my name on file, so to speak, with Illinois Jacquet, I kept trying to get Basie to tell me, "Benny, you're hired. You got a job." Then I wouldn't have to pursue these other things. I just wanted a job with somebody with whom I could further my career or learn something. (next column...)

Mind you, I'm a kid of 21 and I'm talking to Count Basie. So I'd ask him, "Mr. Basie, how do like the trombone section?" He'd say, "It's OK, kid," and that sort of ended the conversation, you know? Then the next time I'd ask him. "Well, Mr. Basie, do the trombones sound all right?" He'd say, "They sound great, kid." So it went on like this for weeks, me trying to get him to say, "Benny, you're hired." The most I got out of him was, maybe after asking him about six or seven times, he'd say, "You're here, aren't you, kid?"

I just wanted him to say, "Benny, you're hired. You got a job." He never did. And after about two or three years it finally dawned on me, "Well, Benny, you are here, you must have the job. So accept that."

Why did you finally leave Basie?

Well, after 12 years I felt it was time to grow, time for me to stretch out. Basie was such a beautiful guy, I could tell him that and I left with his blessings. And he told me if there was anything at all he could help me with, don't hesitate to come back and ask him.

It seems like no matter how long you've been out of the band, you're still thought of as a Basie-ite.

People still ask me, "Is the band in town?" And I left the band in 1963! So, you know, people very much associate me with the band and I'm proud to say that, because it's opened a lot of doors for me. When I got my first Broadway show or my first television show, it was because I had been with Count Basie and they figured, "If he was with Count Basie's band for 12 years, this guy must know something." So it's always stood me in good stead. But once you were with Basie, you're with the Basie family. Basie always stressed, "This is a family," and he always treated it as such.

I'm wondering if one of the reasons you left Basie was that, as a trombonist in a big band, you didn't get a lot of chances to solo.

That's correct. Traditionally, we've been stepchildren. When the trumpet player finishes playing, then the tenor player plays, and after that comes the drum solo. In the meantime, the trombone player has had eight bars in the whole arrangement. The thing I was most remembered for with Basie was the little melody that I played in the bridge to "April in Paris." I knew that, no matter what, I would get a chance to play that because it was a hit for Basie's band.

But we all have to eventually leave big bands if we want to be soloists. I wanted to develop and with big bands you get a chance to play very few solos. Plus with Basie's band, if you weren't careful you could develop a formula solo. That meant you played the same solo every night and the rhythm section sort of built their responses to your solo. So it's not so much that I wanted to start my own band. It's just that I didn't get the opportunity to play that much with Basie's band.

And then, too, Al Grey was with the band. And Al Grey was a bit older than me, much more experienced and so forth, also a very fine trombone player, and he got most of the solo space, much to the detriment of Henry Coker and myself. Henry Coker was a fine trombonist, but Al was a bit more aggressive. Anyway, Al got the large share of the solo space, deservedly so, and Henry Coker got a great part of it, too. I was, I guess, kind of the third soloist, in a sense-certainly in my mind, because those guys were more experienced. And I didn't feel badly because of it. I learned from them. But there was a time, after 12 years, when I needed to split just to develop my own career and my own capacity to be a trombonist.

I have a philosophy. If you want to do anything, of course, you should study towards that. But you should sort of act as if you're there already. For instance, I wanted to be an out-front guy with my own band. So I had to start preparing myself for it, find out what it takes to make a bandleader. And also I had to start carrying myself like a bandleader.

I'll tell you a for-instance. When I first started leading my own band, I had been a sideman for many years. Well before, when I would get a gig in a club as a sideman, during the break I'd sit around until somebody came and got me and said, "Benny, it's time to go on." When I became a leader, I found myself still sitting there, waiting for somebody to tell me to go on. Then it would occur to me, "There's nobody who's gonna tell you to go on now, Benny. You're it. You have to tell the other guys to go on." So you have to break old habits. I had to start acting like a bandleader.

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